Will Trump win again???

[Mikkel]

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Red herring arguments trying to deflect away from all the recent Mass shootings committed most by those with right wing sympathies, most often with assault rifles. Sad!

I guess you prefer thoughts and prayers on that one

It's an inconvenient truth for you to know more people are killed by knives than by rifles.

2% of homicides by rifle.
10% of homicides by knives.
46% by handgun.


You act like semiautomatic rifles are the problem, when semiautomatic pistols kill 17x more people.

Are you going to confiscate all semiautomatic weapons, or just rifle variants, because you think they're low hanging fruit?

 

[medgator]

It's an inconvenient truth for you to know more people are killed by knives than by rifles.

2% of homicides by rifle.
10% of homicides by knives.
46% by handgun.


You act like semiautomatic rifles are the problem, when semiautomatic pistols kill 17x more people.

Are you going to confiscate all semiautomatic weapons, or just rifle variants, because you think they're low hanging fruit?

Are you going to equate suicides to mass shootings at synagogues, clubs, schools and festivals?

And then gaslight us about how these weapons are essentially designed to kill lots of people quickly?

There's a difference between a handgun and a rifle and I'm sure a pro gun guy like yourself knows which one is better at upping the body count as quickly as possible during a mass shooting.

 

[Mikkel]

The 1990s would disagree with you.

Changes in US mass shooting deaths associated with the 1994-2004 federal assault weapons ban: Analysis of open-source data - PubMed

Observational, level II/IV.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A quick glance at the abstract:

"Assault rifles"

"9 fewer mass shooting related deaths per 10,000 firearm homicides"

"Mass shooting data for 1981 to 2017 were obtained from three well-documented, referenced, and open-source sets of data, based on media reports." (No selection bias there...)

0.0009 (0.09%) difference, p-value 0.03.



That article is a farce.

 

[medgator]

A quick glance at the abstract:

"Assault rifles"

"9 fewer mass shooting related deaths per 10,000 firearm homicides"

"Mass shooting data for 1981 to 2017 were obtained from three well-documented, referenced, and open-source sets of data, based on media reports." (No selection bias there...)

0.0009 (0.09%) difference, p-value 0.03.



That article is a farce.

Yup. If you ignore the media, the dead bodies magically come back! Right wing logic

 

[Mikkel]

Are you going to equate suicides to mass shootings at synagogues, clubs, schools and festivals? And then gaslight us about how these weapons are essentially designed to kill lots of people quickly? There's a difference between a handgun and a rifle and I'm sure a pro gun guy like yourself knows which one is better at upping the body count quickly

It's FBI HOMICIDE data.

 

[medgator]

It's FBI HOMICIDE data.

Suicides and gang violence aren't the same as mass shootings at schools, churches and other public venues

 

[Mikkel]

And then gaslight us about how these weapons are essentially designed to kill lots of people quickly?

There's a difference between a handgun and a rifle and I'm sure a pro gun guy like yourself knows which one is better at upping the body count as quickly as possible during a mass shooting.

All guns are designed to kill.

That's why they're used for self defense protection.

I think you could make a better argument that concealed handguns have more potential to kill many more people because criminals can get closer to congregations with a weapon before being detected as a threat, whereas rifles are safer because they can't be concealed easily.

 

[Mikkel]

Suicides and gang violence aren't the same as mass shootings at schools, churches and other public venues

I gave you homicide data, and you claimed it included suicide deaths.

 

[medgator]

All guns are designed to kill.

That's why they're used for self defense protection.

I think you could make a better argument that concealed handguns have more potential to kill many more people because criminals can get closer to congregations with a weapon before being detected as a threat, whereas rifles are safer because they can't be concealed easily.

Except the data doesn't support that. You think Vegas could have happened with a handgun? Or a knife? Or a truck?

Would a good guy with a gun have stopped the Vegas shooter?

Try to be logical about this.

 

[medgator]

I gave you homicide data, and you claimed it included suicide deaths.

You are the one trying to treat different types of deaths the same. You think gang violence is related to School Mass shootings. Nonsensical

 

[Mikkel]

You think Vegas could have happened with a handgun? Or a knife? Or a truck?

Truck attack

a 19-tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others.


Yes, Vegas could have happened with a truck.

 

[Mikkel]

You are the one trying to treat different types of deaths the same. You think gang violence is related to School Mass shootings. Nonsensical

"Mass shootings" include gang violence if 4 or more people are killed in a single event, and overwhelmingly involve handguns.

 

[medgator]

"Mass shootings" include gang violence if 4 or more people are killed in a single event, and overwhelmingly involve handguns.

And is completely irrelevant to what is happening all over the country at schools, festivals etc

 

[medgator]

Truck attack

a 19-tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others.


Yes, Vegas could have happened with a truck.

And trucks are actually harder to buy and own than guns. They have license plates, inspections and require liability insurance.

Shouldn't guns be treated similarly?

 

[Mikkel]

And trucks are actually harder to buy and own than guns. They have license plates, inspections and require liability insurance.

Shouldn't guns be treated similarly?

*Renting a truck* (as the case in Nice) is easier than buying a gun because it doesn't require a background check at point of sale.


Also, the right to a firearm is protected by the US Constitution, while truck rental is not.

 

[BLADEMDA]

And trucks are actually harder to buy and own than guns. They have license plates, inspections and require liability insurance.

Shouldn't guns be treated similarly?

Tread carefully here as trucks are not a right guaranteed by the US Constitution

We can agree that AR15 and AK47 rifles may need limitations but how far do you take those limits? I own several carbines that look like assault weapons. They are simply rifles shooting handgun ammo. That said, my carbines could inflict a lot of damage quickly. Should those be banned as well?

At some point those of us who own guns must stand up for our second amendment right.

 

[Mikkel]

And is completely irrelevant to what is happening all over the country at schools, festivals etc

You don't think it's relevant to know that semiautomatic handguns are used in mass shootings far more often and kill far more people than semiautomatic rifles?

 

[Mikkel]

Yup. If you ignore the media, the dead bodies magically come back! Right wing logic

As a physician, you should be able to understand selection bias.

 

[medgator]

Tread carefully here as trucks are not a right guaranteed by the US Constitution

We can agree that AR15 and AK47 rifles may need limitations but how far do you take those limits? I own several carbines that look like assault weapons. They are simply rifles shooting handgun ammo. That said, my carbines could inflict a lot of damage quickly. Should those be banned as well?

At some point those of us who own guns must stand up for our second amendment right.

No one is talking about banning trucks. Or guns for that matter.

Both should be regulated appropriately. Or else the US will continue to headline the developed world regarding these incidents. Most Americans support this like universal background checks, closing the gunshow loophole etc.

Japan has the right idea. An interview should be required imo. Could root out a lot of the mentally ill/unstable from owning them

Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths — here's how

A recent spate of mass shootings has prompted renewed calls for gun control in the US. Japan may offer some insight into preventing future attacks.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Mikkel]

No one is talking about banning trucks. Or guns for that matter.

Actually, the Democrat presidential candidates are specifically saying they plan to have the federal government seize self defense weapons from law abiding citizens (mandatory gun buyback, Australian style).

 

[medgator]

Actually, the Democrat presidential candidates are specifically saying they plan to have the federal government seize self defense weapons from law abiding citizens (mandatory gun buyback, Australian style).

to

I'd be fine bringing back the AWB personally. Certainly better than ignoring the issue which is what Republicans prefer. People still owned guns in the 90s after it was passed

 

[Mikkel]

Japan has the right idea.

Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths — here's how

A recent spate of mass shootings has prompted renewed calls for gun control in the US. Japan may offer some insight into preventing future attacks.

www.businessinsider.com

Japan and the United States are vastly different from each other in almost every meaningful way, ie population, culture, economy.

 

[medgator]

Japan and the United States are vastly different from each other in almost every meaningful way, ie population, culture, economy.

Doesn't seem like a legitimate excuse to avoid strengthening the background check process to own a gun

 

[Mikkel]

I'd be fine bringing back the AWB personally. Certainly better than ignoring the issue which is what Republicans prefer. People still owned guns in the 90s after it was passed

The Assault Weapons Ban (cosmetic features mostly) in 1994 didn't remove existing semiautomatic rifles from circulation. Millions more have been produced after the ban expired. You would just leave millions of these guns unaccounted for?

"Assault Weapons" are already banned under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

The vast majority of all guns, both handgun and rifle, have more than 10-round magazines. Will you confiscate these "high capacity" handguns as well?

 

[Mikkel]

universal background checks, closing the gunshow loophole

The "gunshow loophole" does not exist, since all formal firearm sales require a background check. Federal law.

 

[Mikkel]

Doesn't seem like a legitimate excuse to avoid strengthening the background check process to own a gun

All formal firearm sales already require background checks.

 

[radsisrad]

There are reasons why America has a growing gun-violence problem, and they have nothing to do with cowboy movies or the total number of guns. That said, those reasons probably cannot be discussed explicitly on this forum. Let's just say that the country's social capital has gone to hell.

 

[medgator]

The "gunshow loophole" does not exist, since all formal firearm sales require a background check. Federal law.

Formal. Lol

Background check petition would close gun show loophole

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A gun safety group has taken the first step toward changing Ohio law to require background checks on virtually all guns sales, including those done privately. The petition filed Monday with the Ohio Attorney General's Office by Ohioans for Gun Safety would close a loophole...

www.apnews.com

 

[medgator]

All formal firearm sales already require background checks.

They should require more. No reason an interview couldn't be part of the process. The feds are asleep at the wheel too, just the way the NRA probably likes it

Air Force missed at least two chances to stop Texas shooter buying guns

The U.S. Air Force missed at least two chances to block the shooter in last weekend's deadly church attack in Texas from buying guns after he was accused of a violent offense in 2012, according to current and former government officials and a review of military documents.

www.reuters.com

 

[medgator]

There are reasons why America has a growing gun-violence problem, and they have nothing to do with cowboy movies or the total number of guns. That said, those reasons probably cannot be discussed explicitly on this forum. Let's just say that the country's social capital has gone to hell.

Easy gun accessibility certainly isn't helping the situation though.

5 things that are more complicated than buying a gun in Florida

In Florida, it's easier to buy an AR-15 than it is to obtain cold medicine

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Mikkel]

There are reasons why America has a growing gun-violence problem, and they have nothing to do with cowboy movies or the total number of guns. That said, those reasons probably cannot be discussed explicitly on this forum. Let's just say that the country's social capital has gone to hell.

We've already covered it in this thread:

Welfare expansion in 1960s
Single parent households
Democrat leadership in most urban centers
Decreased wage growth due to weak labor pool
Opioid use, illicitly-obtained mostly
Collapse of local communities
Integration of psychiatrically-ill patients into society

Formal. Lol

Background check petition would close gun show loophole

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A gun safety group has taken the first step toward changing Ohio law to require background checks on virtually all guns sales, including those done privately. The petition filed Monday with the Ohio Attorney General's Office by Ohioans for Gun Safety would close a loophole...

www.apnews.com

A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a form promulgated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in the United States Department of Justice that is filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearms License (FFL) holder (such as a gun shop).[1]

The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, and a short affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. It contains make, model, or serial number on page three of the six page form. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison[2] in addition to fines, even if the transaction is denied by the NICS. Prosecutions are rare in the absence of another felony committed with the gun purchased.[citation needed] Of 556,496 denied transactions between FY 2008 and FY 2015, federal prosecutors prosecuted an average of under 32 cases per year, including 24 in FY 2013, 15 in FY 2014 and 20 in FY 2015.[3][4]

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required "bound-book" called an "Acquisition and Disposition Log.[5] A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of, the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five-day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473. Some states (such as California and Colorado) require individual sellers to sell through dealers.

 

[medgator]

If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473.

Sounds like a loophole to me.

As for the rest of your post, it's never about the ease of getting a gun according to the right. Somehow this seems to be a uniquely American problem in the developed world. How strange. It's far easier to blame Democrats, right?

 

[deleted50478]

Lol. You know your side is going to keep losing the argument with stuff like that.

NRA has been losing membership for years and the GOP is on the losing end of the gun argument with voters.

Do you have any solutions to all these Mass shootings that were done with legally purchased rifles? "Thoughts and prayers"?

“Thoughts and Prayers” is an amazing comedy special by Anthony Jeselnik. Other than that it’s useless.

 

[Mikkel]

Sounds like a loophole to me.

As for the rest of your post, it's never about the ease of getting a gun according to the right. Somehow this seems to be a uniquely American problem in the developed world. How strange. It's far easier to blame Democrats, right?

It's not commerce to sell an old gun to a family member.


It is commerce, however, if you make a job out of selling guns.


Selling guns commercially without a license is a Federal felony.

 

[medgator]

It's not commerce to sell an old gun to a family member.


It is commerce, however, if you make a job out of selling guns.


Selling guns commercially without a license is a Federal felony.

So you think all these gun shows are full of family members selling guns to each other?

Funniest thing I've read on this thread yet

 

[Mikkel]

They should require more. No reason an interview couldn't be part of the process.

The second amendment is enshrined in the Constitution, and specifically says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

26,000,000+ background checks in 2018 alone.

How many agents do you have to conduct an interview?

Where are the offices?

How far do I have to travel to get to one?

How long does it take to get through this process?

How much does it cost?

Is there a registry associated with it?

If someone is in immediate need for self protection, such as a woman who has a violent ex-boyfriend with an extensive knife collection, can they obtain self defense means within a reasonable timeframe?

Could they get fast tracked? Are some people more entitled to constitutional rights than others?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The 1990s would disagree with you.

Changes in US mass shooting deaths associated with the 1994-2004 federal assault weapons ban: Analysis of open-source data - PubMed

Observational, level II/IV.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Are you and mikkel the same poster?

There's no need to be rude, I'm just presenting what the data shows. That's all (you don't even know what my actual opinions are on this).

The problem with focusing on mass shooting like that article does is that they are a very small percentage of total firearm deaths (or homicides if we want to ignore suicides).

In 2018 there were 14,611 homicides involving a firearm. In that same year, there were 373 people who died in a mass shooting (which is defined as 4 or more people shot in the same incident). So 2.5% of total firearm deaths are a result on mass shootings. If we eliminated mass shootings completely, it would barely make a dent in total gun homicides.

 

[medgator]

The second amendment is enshrined in the Constitution, and specifically says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

But life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness shall be?

 

[Mikkel]

So you think all these gun shows are full of family members selling guns to each other?

Funniest thing I've read on this thread yet

You're right for once! Family members DON'T go to gun shows to have a transaction!

Businesses go to gun shows. Businesses at gun shows to sell guns are required by federal law to have an FFL and also conduct a background check on EVERY purchaser.

It's a federal law.

 

[medgator]

. If we eliminated mass shootings completely, it would barely make a dent in total gun homicides.

Does that mean we should not strive to avoid shootings in schools, places of worship, and other public areas?

 

[medgator]

You're right for once! Family members DON'T go to gun shows to have a transaction!

Businesses go to gun shows. Businesses at gun shows to sell guns are required by federal law to have an FFL and also conduct a background check on EVERY purchaser.

It's a federal law.

You're still naive though if you think individual gun sellers are doing background checks at gun shows

 

[Mikkel]

But life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness shall be?

It's against Federal law to murder another person, regardless of means (knife, blunt object, fist, gun, vehicle, suffocation, etc).

 

[medgator]

It's against Federal law to murder another person, regardless of means (knife, blunt object, fist, gun, vehicle, suffocation, etc).

Pretty sure regulation of guns =/= banning guns nor does it infringe on 2A except to only the most hardcore 2A supporters

 

[Mikkel]

Does that mean we should not strive to avoid shootings in schools, places of worship, and other public areas?

You think confiscating guns from law abiding citizens will suddenly evil people from committing evil against innocent people?

What about all the guns not confiscated from people who break the law? Wouldn't they have free reign to commit any violence they want without fear of the other person defending themselves?

 

[Mikkel]

Pretty sure regulation of guns =/= banning guns nor does it infringe on 2A except to only the most hardcore 2A supporters

Guns are already strictly regulated. Convicted felons, people with violent history, drug abusers, mentally ill, etc, are forbidden from owning and purchasing firearms.


But, they're able to purchase knives, bats, rent trucks.

 

[BLADEMDA]

We were making progress on some sort of gun legislation until the impeachment side show. Now nothing will happen in Congress until after Nov 2020. Well, nothing except the impeachment of Trump by the house followed by the Senate voting against it. Total side show accomplishing nothing

 

[medgator]

Guns are already strictly regulated. Convicted felons, people with violent history, drug abusers, mentally ill, etc, are forbidden from owning and purchasing firearms.

Theory vs practice

Texas shooter bought gun in private sale, after ban due to mental illness: ABC

The gunman who killed seven people and wounded 23 others in a rampage across West Texas on Saturday obtained the assault-style rifle used through a private sale after he was banned from having a firearm because he was diagnosed with a mental illness, media reported.

www.reuters.com

While the folks like you on the right debate theory and ignore solutions to address the problem, polls slowly turn against your position

 

[Mikkel]

You're still naive though if you think individual gun sellers are doing background checks at gun shows

Individual sellers who are conducting business at a gun show are required to have a FFL and conduct a background check on every purchaser.


That inconvenient truth goes against your narrative though. What you want with closing the "gunshow loophole" is a de facto gun registry, which ironically only applies to people who abide by the law but not criminals.

 

[medgator]

We were making progress on some sort of gun legislation until the impeachment side show.

Fake news. Trump has been punting since el paso and now is using the impeachment inquiry to punt some more.

After all, he does whatever the NRA overlords tell him to do

NRA chief Wayne LaPierre reportedly offered to help Trump fight off impeachment and asked him to stop 'the games' on gun reform

The New York Times reported that LaPierre offered "financial support for the president's defense" and asked Trump to "stop the games" on gun control.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

FYI, I read the Ukraine conversation. Trump shouldn’t have brought up Biden. That was a mistake. But, impeachment over that ? Nope. If the Dems didn’t vote to impeach Clinton after he lied under oath then the GOP won’t vote to impeach trump for being stupid. And make no mistake Trump is an idiot which is why he brought up Biden to the Ukrainian President during a phone call with spies on the line.