Will Trump win again???

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Quote of the day, and an extraordinary clear optic of the divide in the voting electorate.

“Guns, that is the most pressing issue for me,” said Vijay Katkuri, 38, a software engineer from southern India, explaining why he voted for a Democratic challenger in Tuesday’s elections. He was shopping for chicken at the Indian Spice Food Market. “There are lots of other issues, but you can only fix them if you are alive.”


 
I think there's room for some compromise on the scale of the offense that deserves prosecution.

I'm not real sympathetic though. I wouldn't hire someone to do construction work on my property without appropriate license and bond. Same with movers.




And that's the exact point. Hiring illegal labor should hurt more than hiring legal labor. Part of that pain should be legal consequences.

Those consequences already exist. We just choose to not enforce them. Truth be told, the fastest way to “fix” the entire immigration “problem” is to first enforce existing laws. That is not done because of the notion that it would be too messy or otherwise violate our progressive sense of social justice.
 
Not a chance in Hell.
Of course they wouldn’t, but given the choice, it might expose their hypocrisy about why they want to keep the illegals flooding in.

And I’m sorry PGG, it’s idiotic to say a wall (and obviously it’s not just be a monolithic structure that’d be the same across every kind of terrain) just doesn’t work. Walls do work. Increased patrol and other measures do work. Yes, it would be more expensive but it’s worth it.

I agree that it’s unreasonable to say no one will get across the border illegally, and so yeah, cracking down on employers can be part of the problem, but to say that the solution is to leave the border how it is, crack down on employers, and legalize heroin etc is a joke. Sorry.


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Those consequences already exist. We just choose to not enforce them. Truth be told, the fastest way to “fix” the entire immigration “problem” is to first enforce existing laws. That is not done because of the notion that it would be too messy or otherwise violate our progressive sense of social justice.

Not enforcing them violates my sense of social justice.
 
Of course they wouldn’t, but given the choice, it might expose their hypocrisy about why they want to keep the illegals flooding in.

And I’m sorry PGG, it’s idiotic to say a wall (and obviously it’s not just be a monolithic structure that’d be the same across every kind of terrain) just doesn’t work. Walls do work. Increased patrol and other measures do work. Yes, it would be more expensive but it’s worth it.

I agree that it’s unreasonable to say no one will get across the border illegally, and so yeah, cracking down on employers can be part of the problem, but to say that the solution is to leave the border how it is, crack down on employers, and legalize heroin etc is a joke. Sorry.


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It’s a question of bang for your buck. A wall is expensive and probably has limited effect. Workplace enforcement is practically free (if not profitable!) and highly highly effective.
 
It’s a question of bang for your buck. A wall is expensive and probably has limited effect. Workplace enforcement is practically free (if not profitable!) and highly highly effective.

Work place enforcement does nothing to protect us from cartels and drugs and crime coming across (or maybe a small correlated reduction at best).

Also, the amount of money spend on border control currently is nothing. Could easily be doubled or tripled and it’d still be a drop in the bucket.

Again, I think what you’re saying is part of the solution, but certainly not all encompassing.


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It’s a question of bang for your buck. A wall is expensive and probably has limited effect. Workplace enforcement is practically free (if not profitable!) and highly highly effective.
In this point, I agree. And it’s that the thrust on why many influential R leaning organizations like the chamber of commerce, national association of manufacturing and the business roundtable have different and more nuanced (watered down) vantages on immigration, and in fact, on some of the more pivotal topics disagree with the administration.

But you know, that it’s much easier to vilify and talk smack about some poor brown person on the other side of the border (who does not occupy some platform to offer a retort) than take on some already rich white fat cat with offices on K street, who in reality hold much of the lever to effectuate this issue. That my friend is called being a hypocrite and institutional coward...

 
The answer to smuggling contraband is to end prohibition and abandon the War On Drugs, which is the only thing in this thread dumber than the wall.

Got any more problems for me to solve? 🙂

Again, I’m neither a Trump supporter nor a Republican. I try to objectively weigh proposals based on facts and reality, so I’m not moving any goalposts or carrying water for any candidate.

The current reality is that $20 billion or so is being requested by the current administration to provide physical security to our Southern border. Granted, the fact that this appropriation request didn’t get serious attention when the administration had better control of the government makes me question Trump’s commitment to this issue. However, I see no reason to dismiss such efforts as “moving a goalpost” when all of the actual proposals that were ever submitted were for targeted physical barriers.

As for ending prohibition and the War on Drugs, I recall an era when oxy was essentially unregulated and widely available. People could get it by walking into a clinic office with back pain. It seems that massively deregulating and increasing the amount of opiates in our society didn’t work out so well for us. Now, we are having to massively expand government (public clinics, regulations on doctors, etc.) in what I think will be a largely failed attempt to help people rebuild their lives. So, pardon me if I’m skeptical that less regulation on drugs is the answer.
 
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In this point, I agree. And it’s that the thrust on why many influential R leaning organizations like the chamber of commerce, national association of manufacturing and the business roundtable have different and more nuanced (watered down) vantages on immigration, and in fact, on some of the more pivotal topics disagree with the administration.

But you know, that it’s much easier to vilify and talk smack about some poor brown person on the other side of the border (who does not occupy some platform to offer a retort) than take on some already rich white fat cat with offices on K street, who in reality hold much of the lever to effectuate this issue. That my friend is called being a hypocrite and institutional coward...


It’s much easier to vilify the right and call them all racist when they try to address an obvious problem, than it is to actually address the problem.


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It’s much easier to vilify the right and call them all racist when they try to address an obvious problem, than it is to actually address the problem.


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Then bring some broad truth to the conversation and give equal time to the notion, that there are many influential and actual more powerful institutional groups associate the R party, just like I mentioned and cited, but do NOT hold all the views you espouse and in fact, much of the problem is tethered to public policy positions already held within the republican apparatus.
 
It’s much easier to vilify the right and call them all racist when they try to address an obvious problem, than it is to actually address the problem.


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Dismissing ideas as stupid, idiotic, or dumb is a big part of the reason why problems don’t get fixed. It seems to be the Achilles heel of the internet; some people just can’t handle the dopamine.
 
Dismissing ideas as stupid, idiotic, or dumb is a big part of the reason why problems don’t get fixed. It seems to be the Achilles heel of the internet; some people just can’t handle the dopamine.

Yeah, I get so irritated with “walls don’t work!” But if you repeat something enough, no matter how illogical it sounds, the sheep will eventually hold it as fact.

Everyone knows a wall will keep people out. We have walls everywhere, solely for the purposes of keeping people out of certain areas. And they work.


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Dismissing ideas as stupid, idiotic, or dumb is a big part of the reason why problems don’t get fixed. It seems to be the Achilles heel of the internet; some people just can’t handle the dopamine.
I actually provided alternative ideas, actually provided by entities within the right, but they are either by conscription ignored or conveniently not mentioned. My entire point, is that there are other competing views within the same party, and in fact, from an enforcement perspective they have much more inherent autonomy to practically address the situation. But, I don’t hear anyone taking the National manufacturing association to proverbial woodshed nor the chamber of commerce.
 
I posted an article with references that dispute all of your claims. I live in a border “sanctuary city” with more illegal immigrants than most parts of the country and they’re not causing problems here. It’s just made up BS to rile up middle America.

No, it does not dispute all of my claims. Do you know how to read?

They estimate 12 billion/year paid in taxes. And they estimate 11 billion illegals (which is a BS number, as the number is 22 million, per a Yale/MIT study). Your article also reads, "Factoring out kids, nonworking immigrants and those working in the underground economy and not paying taxes..." Thereby admitting that there's a host of illegals who get away without income tax.

But let's take the incorrectly oft-quoted number of 11 million illegals. Your article states that they ostensibly pay 12 billion/year in taxes. That's about $1,000 put into the pot. Did you see what else your article states? "Heritage noted that the average undocumented immigrant household received about $24,721 in government benefits and services (i.e. public education, welfare benefits and services like police and highways)..." Great - they drain, on net, $23,721 annually. Hooray?

And the article didn't address my points about healthcare dollars, pricing low-skilled Americans out of the labor market, or skewing politics leftward (e.g., by counting toward the census, a step Trump has tried to combat but on which he's been thwarted by treasonous Leftist judges).

Judgment: illegals are a massive drain on America's economy and society.
 
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I actually provided alternative ideas, actually provided by entities within the right, but they are either by conscription ignored or conveniently not mentioned. My entire point, is that there are other competing views within the same party, and in fact, from an enforcement perspective they have much more inherent autonomy to practically address the situation. But, I don’t hear anyone taking the National manufacturing association to proverbial woodshed nor the chamber of commerce.

Absolutely, organizations such as the Chamber of Commerce are on the wrong side of this issue. Where you may get a little push back from me is in the notion that such organizations are “right” or “conservative.” Yes, they align with the Republican Party more often than not, but the organizations that you mention are more progressive in their ideology when it comes to scope and size of government in business. The Republican Party under Trump is no longer a conservative, limited give institution which is why I don’t exclusively vote GOP.
 
Do people do their own research in regards to immigration and illegal immigration? Because it sounds like much of what has been said above is just repeating what trump yells about is a "problem." There isn’t going to be a solution or understanding if people don’t know the facts.

1) Ilegal immigration is at its lowest point since 2007.
2) The vast majority of undocumented immigrants, 67%, have been here for 10 plus years.
3) The vast majority of undocumented immigrants are not sneaking in over the southern border. The vast majority are overstaying visas.
4) In 2017 there were almost equal numbers of undocumented immigrants from Asian countries and Central American countries (approximately 1.5 million from each region). There were far less Mexican immigrants.
5) Undocumented immigrants make up 5% of the work force, most in agriculture, production, construction, services (like healthcare) and transportation.
6) Undocumented immigrants pay at least about 20 billion in taxes each year contributing to Medicaid, Medicare and social security.
 
Yeah, I get so irritated with “walls don’t work!” But if you repeat something enough, no matter how illogical it sounds, the sheep will eventually hold it as fact.

Everyone knows a wall will keep people out. We have walls everywhere, solely for the purposes of keeping people out of certain areas. And they work.

You're missing the point. Perhaps it's deliberate?

A border wall won't stop, or even meaningfully reduce, illegal immigration, because the vast majority of illegal immigrants cross the border at a port of entry. A small number hike across the desert.

You're like a guy who wants to build a fence to keep pigeons out of his yard. His neighbors try to explain that the birds aren't walking onto his property. He builds it anyway, and when it doesn't work, he drives over to Home Depot to buy more lumber to make the fence a foot taller.
 
You're missing the point. Perhaps it's deliberate?

A border wall won't stop, or even meaningfully reduce, illegal immigration, because the vast majority of illegal immigrants cross the border at a port of entry. A small number hike across the desert.

You're like a guy who wants to build a fence to keep pigeons out of his yard. His neighbors try to explain that the birds aren't walking onto his property. He builds it anyway, and when it doesn't work, he drives over to Home Depot to buy more lumber to make the fence a foot taller.
Indeed, without being overtly simplistic, but you show me a a 20 foot wall and I’ll show you a 21 foot ladder...and it goes on and on.
 
Do people do their own research in regards to immigration and illegal immigration? Because it sounds like much of what has been said above is just repeating what trump yells about is a "problem." There isn’t going to be a solution or understanding if people don’t know the facts.

1) Ilegal immigration is at its lowest point since 2007.
2) The vast majority of undocumented immigrants, 67%, have been here for 10 plus years.
3) The vast majority of undocumented immigrants are not sneaking in over the southern border. The vast majority are overstaying visas.
4) In 2017 there were almost equal numbers of undocumented immigrants from Asian countries and Central American countries (approximately 1.5 million from each region). There were far less Mexican immigrants.
5) Undocumented immigrants make up 5% of the work force, most in agriculture, production, construction, services (like healthcare) and transportation.
6) Undocumented immigrants pay at least about 20 billion in taxes each year contributing to Medicaid, Medicare and social security.

1) good, but it should be zero.
2) yes, I’ve agreed those situations are more tricky
3) that’s a problem too, but doesn’t really have any bearing on the border situation. Deal with em both.
4)see number 3
5) yes, and the market will have to adjust if we can cut illegals out of the workforce
6) and they still are a net drain financially and are here illegally, so you’re point with this is....?


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As for ending prohibition and the War on Drugs, I recall an era when oxy was essentially unregulated and widely available. People could get it by walking into a clinic office with back pain. It seems that massively deregulating and increasing the amount of opiates in our society didn’t work out so well for us. Now, we are having to massively expand government (public clinics, regulations on doctors, etc.) in what I think will be a largely failed attempt to help people rebuild their lives. So, pardon me if I’m skeptical that less regulation on drugs is the answer.
Your points are well taken.

I would counter by noting that a large part of the problem was created by doctors who overprescribed the stuff while telling patients it wasn't addictive. There are a whole lot of reasons for that, ranging from "pain is the 5th vital sign" bull**** leading to overagressive pain treatment, to doctors being taught that opioids when used for real pain didn't carry the same dependency risk, to actual unscupulous predatory pain clinics.

But in any case ... I have always argued that the best way to reduce social ills like drug addiction and suicide is to attack the core reasons people are unhappy and hopeless in the first place. Education, a strong economy where all workers make solid living wages, etc.

And in the end, as I have also always argued, I value individual choice and freedom above almost everything else, and the dirty little secret of real freedom is that you're on your own, free to mess up your life. I'm willing to accept that some people will destroy themselves, in return for broad freedom from a nanny state. Drug addicts are only a danger to the rest of us when they have to commit crimes to get their drugs. Prohibition is morally wrong, and objectively harmful to all of us.
 
You're missing the point. Perhaps it's deliberate?

A border wall won't stop, or even meaningfully reduce, illegal immigration, because the vast majority of illegal immigrants cross the border at a port of entry. A small number hike across the desert.

Just cause you say something with conviction doesn’t make it true. What proof do you have the it won’t have a meaningful impact? And how can you say most enter illegally at a port of entry? If you’re referring to people that enter legally and overstay visas, that’s one problem and needs to be addressed too. But I highly doubt you believe people who are illegal from day one are sneaking through ports of entry and not running across an unmanned and unprotected (no wall) section of the border.


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Indeed, without being overtly simplistic, but you show me a a 20 foot wall and I’ll show you a 21 foot ladder...and it goes on and on.

So your point is what? Don’t try?

Yeah, some people will always find ways around roadblocks. But the more you have and the more significant they are, the more you reduce the problem.



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So your point is what? Don’t try?

Yeah, some people will always find ways around roadblocks. But the more you have and the more significant they are, the more you reduce the problem.



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Like anything else we should be aiming and constructing solutions with an objective of efficiency, productive and yield. Fences do not even meet the basics of this standard public policy posit. Let’s be honest, the fence is a mere substitution for a rhetorical device aimed it his base period...and a very expensive one at that. My best friend is the senior US Attorney (not political, career) and he would be the first to tell you, that the fences offer, at best, minimal obstruction from folks crossing the border, all one needs is either go down the road a bit, or go under and over.

Here is the thing, on just one high tech tunnel dug, even if it’s not used again, one shipment of of either drugs of humans pays for itself. Unfortunately, this is the yield productivity we should be looking for in an actual solution and not some kabuki theater so rabid folks on the right can feel good about a 25 billion boondoggle....
 
Just cause you say something with conviction doesn’t make it true. What proof do you have the it won’t have a meaningful impact? And how can you say most enter illegally at a port of entry? If you’re referring to people that enter legally and overstay visas, that’s one problem and needs to be addressed too. But I highly doubt you believe people who are illegal from day one are sneaking through ports of entry and not running across an unmanned and unprotected (no wall) section of the border.


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When something costs tens to hundreds of billions of dollars, will cause immeasurable environmental damage, and require the government to forcefully take land from private landowners then I think the burden of proof should be on those that want to build the wall.
 
You're missing the point. Perhaps it's deliberate?

A border wall won't stop, or even meaningfully reduce, illegal immigration, because the vast majority of illegal immigrants cross the border at a port of entry. A small number hike across the desert.

I’m not sure that is the case anymore. While it is true that visa violations were the historical champion of the undocumented, DOS has been issuing far fewer temp visas under Trump.


DHS spent the past 2 years targeting these visa violators with an emphasis on those with felony records. Interestingly, those efforts were met with resistance from mayors in cities like SanFan who announced ICE raids (imagine the Left’s moral outrage if mayors of conservative towns announced ATF raids).

Moreover, the past 12 months saw illegal border crossing reach 13-year highs and the vast majority of these were not occurring at legal points of entry. Close to 1 million were apprehended this year alone; an estimated 5 million made it across. Now, notice the number of illegal crossings and apprehensions plummet after July.


That coincides with physical interdiction on the Mexican side with more than 25,000 NG soldiers and physical barriers.


You may also recall for several weeks after 9/11 when the flow of illegal immigration across our border was near zero. That was when we deployed barbed wire, temporary barriers, and soldiers with M16s (empty of course) patrolling our border out of fear that the next big attack would be a device delivered from Mexico.

Bottom line, physical interdiction works. Barriers work. Intelligence works. And, enforcing labor laws work. Put them all together and a lot of lives would be saved.
 
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“President Trump's proposed border wall will help federal agencies secure the U.S.-Mexico border, according to Carla Provost, the newly announced chief of U.S. border patrol.

"Most certainly, it already assists my men and women," Provost told Hill.TV's Buck Sexton on Wednesday.

"We already have many miles, over 600 miles of barrier along the border. I have been in locations where there was no barrier, and then I was there when we put it up. It certainly helps. It's not a be all end all. It's a part of a system. We need the technology, we need that infrastructure," she added in the interview that aired Thursday.”




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“The findings, shared with The Washington Times, appear to undercut the argument of congressional Democrats, who released a report last month concluding that line agents didn’t support Mr. Trump’s plans for a wall. The report was based on an internal tool used by Homeland Security to evaluate security gaps.


The NBPC’s survey, of more than 600 agents in two of the Border Patrol’s busiest sectors, found just the opposite: A stunning 89 percent of line agents say a “wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.” Just 7 percent disagreed.”




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“President Trump's proposed border wall will help federal agencies secure the U.S.-Mexico border, according to Carla Provost, the newly announced chief of U.S. border patrol.

"Most certainly, it already assists my men and women," Provost told Hill.TV's Buck Sexton on Wednesday.

"We already have many miles, over 600 miles of barrier along the border. I have been in locations where there was no barrier, and then I was there when we put it up. It certainly helps. It's not a be all end all. It's a part of a system. We need the technology, we need that infrastructure," she added in the interview that aired Thursday.”




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Thanks
“President Trump's proposed border wall will help federal agencies secure the U.S.-Mexico border, according to Carla Provost, the newly announced chief of U.S. border patrol.

"Most certainly, it already assists my men and women," Provost told Hill.TV's Buck Sexton on Wednesday.

"We already have many miles, over 600 miles of barrier along the border. I have been in locations where there was no barrier, and then I was there when we put it up. It certainly helps. It's not a be all end all. It's a part of a system. We need the technology, we need that infrastructure," she added in the interview that aired Thursday.”




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The same Provost that was part of secret FB page that was frequently vulgar and racist against immigrants and people of color?

 
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The same Provost that was part of secret FB page that was frequently vulgar and racist against immigrants and people of color?




Yawn.



Shocking. Wanting to smear someone for making one innocuous post on a FB group that had some people saying vulgar things.

Ask any medical person here if the public would be appalled by things said in the OR or the ED. Doesn’t change the quality of the medical care. Just how people deal with hard, morbid, scary etc situations. I know this will go above your head as you aren’t in the medical profession, but it’s still valid. Ask around.



Step 1 every time: Attack the messenger. Check.


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Yawn.



Shocking. Wanting to smear someone for making one innocuous post on a FB group that had some people saying vulgar things.

Ask any medical person here if the public would be appalled by things said in the OR or the ED. Doesn’t change the quality of the medical care. Just how people deal with hard, morbid, scary etc situations. I know this will go above your head as you aren’t in the medical profession, but it’s still valid. Ask around.



Step 1 every time: Attack the messenger. Check.


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I have three doctors in my house (how many do you have in yours?) for now thirty years, trained at some of the most prestigious institutions including JHU and UCSF, so I got more than passing knowledge. But to your point, yes, no everything is racist, unless of course it is. Moreover, it’s one thing to make a flippant unintended comment on some medical floor, it’s quite another thing when you have these pejorative views on the very population you are sworn to swear in a public trust position....huge difference.
 
I have three doctors in my house (how many do you have in yours?) for now thirty years, trained at some of the most prestigious institutions including JHU and UCSF, so I got more than passing knowledge. But to your point, yes, no everything is racist, unless of course it is. Moreover, it’s one thing to make a flippant unintended comment on some medical floor, it’s quite another thing when you have these pejorative views on the very population you are sworn to swear in a public trust position....huge difference.

So would you mind quoting what this lady posted that somehow makes her a racist or not credible?

Or do you just want to make her guilty of some crime by having a post on the internet in the presence of some people who may have said some questionable things?

You seem to think some on here are racist. And since you’re posting in the same forum, does that somehow incriminate you?

It’s so weak. It’s a typical smear job to divert attention. Classic. Weak.


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This is a group that numbers in the tens of thousand and is the FB page now closed, was a “secret” invite only type with much much smaller participation—huge difference. Akin to someone who catches Amtrak versus a small subscriber-ship of limo service —the difference being the later is that it takes both invitation and conscription to join.
 
Yawn.

Shocking. Wanting to smear someone for making one innocuous post on a FB group that had some people saying vulgar things.

Ask any medical person here if the public would be appalled by things said in the OR or the ED. Doesn’t change the quality of the medical care. Just how people deal with hard, morbid, scary etc situations. I know this will go above your head as you aren’t in the medical profession, but it’s still valid. Ask around.

Step 1 every time: Attack the messenger. Check.

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Nope, not ok. Not ok in the OR, ED, on the floor, etc. I've certainly reported it before and will continue to do so.
I'm glad you're ok with "locker room" talk, and you would be cool with your daughter's pediatrician saying "I like to grab them by the pu$$y" for example, but that's not ok to me. I certainly think someone's moral character matters, especially when you are in charge of someone's well-being and life. You can pretend that sexism, racism and xenophobia haven't shaped the history of medical care in this country, but I implore you to read about history. And I also think that the company that you keep matters. It definitely drops one's credibility and offers insights into their internal dialogue to be involved in a private group of vile comments, but you're going to have your opinion, and I'm going to have mine. I'll never understand why people defend such problematic behavior?

As far as the comments about the wall:

Why not try?

Because a wall will cost billions of dollars, disrupts the environment and takes away land from people that rightfully own it.

I mean if really the goal is to get to zero undocumented people coming to this country then we need to stop issuing visas to everyone, yes that includes Europeans and Asians and then call it a day. But I'm pretty sure that is an absurd solution, just like building a wall is an absurd solution.

Why not put large companies out of business that knowingly hire undocumented immigrants? Hmm, I wonder why that's not something people are talking about.

The vast majority of people want to live where they're from if they feel safe and have jobs and are able to live/raise their families. Most families do not want to be smuggled, with the high chance of injury, rape and/or death to come to the US. The mexican economy has improved over the past several years and now there are less undocumented mexican immigrants. Mexicans do come and go across the border daily legally. So lets look at what is causing people to become undocumented.

DACA is another example of a solution, but that still isn't entirely a solution since it doesn't even offer a path to citizenship and republicans seem to be fighting that.

No one is saying that walls don't help to stop SOME people from entering the country illegally, but we do not have finite money or environmental resources. I'm not sure why that concept is hard to understand, especially for a party that seems to care about spending and trump's promises to improve the deficit. It's the same reason that there isn't as much funding for diseases that affect 5 people per year vs diseases that affect 15 million people per year.

But I think it's no coincidence that trump has manufactured this "crisis" against a specific group of brown people when one should be able to look at the larger picture and see what is really going on and use your critical thinking skills for actual solutions that address the underlying situation.
 
Nope, not ok. Not ok in the OR, ED, on the floor, etc. I've certainly reported it before and will continue to do so.
I'm glad you're ok with "locker room" talk, and you would be cool with your daughter's pediatrician saying "I like to grab them by the pu$$y" for example, but that's not ok to me. I certainly think someone's moral character matters, especially when you are in charge of someone's well-being and life. You can pretend that sexism, racism and xenophobia haven't shaped the history of medical care in this country, but I implore you to read about history. And I also think that the company that you keep matters. It definitely drops one's credibility and offers insights into their internal dialogue to be involved in a private group of vile comments, but you're going to have your opinion, and I'm going to have mine. I'll never understand why people defend such problematic behavior?

As far as the comments about the wall:

Why not try?

Because a wall will cost billions of dollars, disrupts the environment and takes away land from people that rightfully own it.

I mean if really the goal is to get to zero undocumented people coming to this country then we need to stop issuing visas to everyone, yes that includes Europeans and Asians and then call it a day. But I'm pretty sure that is an absurd solution, just like building a wall is an absurd solution.

Why not put large companies out of business that knowingly hire undocumented immigrants? Hmm, I wonder why that's not something people are talking about.

The vast majority of people want to live where they're from if they feel safe and have jobs and are able to live/raise their families. Most families do not want to be smuggled, with the high chance of injury, rape and/or death to come to the US. The mexican economy has improved over the past several years and now there are less undocumented mexican immigrants. Mexicans do come and go across the border daily legally. So lets look at what is causing people to become undocumented.

DACA is another example of a solution, but that still isn't entirely a solution since it doesn't even offer a path to citizenship and republicans seem to be fighting that.

No one is saying that walls don't help to stop SOME people from entering the country illegally, but we do not have finite money or environmental resources. I'm not sure why that concept is hard to understand, especially for a party that seems to care about spending and trump's promises to improve the deficit. It's the same reason that there isn't as much funding for diseases that affect 5 people per year vs diseases that affect 15 million people per year.

But I think it's no coincidence that trump has manufactured this "crisis" against a specific group of brown people when one should be able to look at the larger picture and see what is really going on and use your critical thinking skills for actual solutions that address the underlying situation.
Yep, well said. But then again, Matty has some fairly loose rules to this as long as it does not insinuate his own acquiescence or culpability to such behavior.
 
Nope, not ok. Not ok in the OR, ED, on the floor, etc. I've certainly reported it before and will continue to do so.
I'm glad you're ok with "locker room" talk, and you would be cool with your daughter's pediatrician saying "I like to grab them by the pu$$y" for example, but that's not ok to me. I certainly think someone's moral character matters, especially when you are in charge of someone's well-being and life. You can pretend that sexism, racism and xenophobia haven't shaped the history of medical care in this country, but I implore you to read about history. And I also think that the company that you keep matters. It definitely drops one's credibility and offers insights into their internal dialogue to be involved in a private group of vile comments, but you're going to have your opinion, and I'm going to have mine. I'll never understand why people defend such problematic behavior?

I never said things people say are morally right or even that its ok by me. I just said that it happens a lot, and it doesnt invalidate the knowledge or skill of the medical provider. And comparatively, when I quote someone who knows WAY more about the border than you who says they want and need more walls, and they are bashed because they posted completely bland inconsequential comments online in the company of people who have said mean things, that's garbage. Her opinion is not in any way invalidated, as was Mr Boo's intent when linking that article.



Why not try?

Because a wall will cost billions of dollars, disrupts the environment and takes away land from people that rightfully own it.

So its cool to talk about adding TRILLIONS of dollars to the federal budget for some nonsense like medicare 4 all, but adding 10-20 billion to ramp up border security is nuts. K.


I mean if really the goal is to get to zero undocumented people coming to this country then we need to stop issuing visas to everyone, yes that includes Europeans and Asians and then call it a day. But I'm pretty sure that is an absurd solution, just like building a wall is an absurd solution.

We've been talking about overstayed visas, and yeah, its a SEPERATE problem to be dealt with. I don't know why y'all constantly mention that as a retort to dealing with the border. It's like someone coming in with a broken leg and a broken arm, and you refusing to address the broken arm. And when the patient asks, "Hey, you gonna fix my arm?" you reply "Quiet dummy, you have a broken leg."


Why not put large companies out of business that knowingly hire undocumented immigrants? Hmm, I wonder why that's not something people are talking about.

The vast majority of people want to live where they're from if they feel safe and have jobs and are able to live/raise their families. Most families do not want to be smuggled, with the high chance of injury, rape and/or death to come to the US. The mexican economy has improved over the past several years and now there are less undocumented mexican immigrants. Mexicans do come and go across the border daily legally. So lets look at what is causing people to become undocumented.

DACA is another example of a solution, but that still isn't entirely a solution since it doesn't even offer a path to citizenship and republicans seem to be fighting that.

We HAVE been talking about employment of illegals a bunch recently, so.....


No one is saying that walls don't help to stop SOME people from entering the country illegally, but we do not have finite money or environmental resources. I'm not sure why that concept is hard to understand, especially for a party that seems to care about spending and trump's promises to improve the deficit. It's the same reason that there isn't as much funding for diseases that affect 5 people per year vs diseases that affect 15 million people per year.

Well, you're wrong, cause people spout over and over (even on here) that "WALLS DONT WORK!" I've never seen a liberal with a protest sign chanting "WALLS ARE ONLY MODERATELY EFFECTIVE!!!!"

And hundreds of thousands of people per year is different than 5.


But I think it's no coincidence that trump has manufactured this "crisis" against a specific group of brown people when one should be able to look at the larger picture and see what is really going on and use your critical thinking skills for actual solutions that address the underlying situation.

And there it is. Its all fake, there's no border crisis, no MS-13, no drug cartels, nothing to see here, just pure innocent people and a racist president making stuff up.
 
Nope, not ok. Not ok in the OR, ED, on the floor, etc. I've certainly reported it before and will continue to do so.
I'm glad you're ok with "locker room" talk, and you would be cool with your daughter's pediatrician saying "I like to grab them by the pu$$y" for example, but that's not ok to me. I certainly think someone's moral character matters, especially when you are in charge of someone's well-being and life. You can pretend that sexism, racism and xenophobia haven't shaped the history of medical care in this country, but I implore you to read about history. And I also think that the company that you keep matters. It definitely drops one's credibility and offers insights into their internal dialogue to be involved in a private group of vile comments, but you're going to have your opinion, and I'm going to have mine. I'll never understand why people defend such problematic behavior?

I didn’t vote for Trump or Hillary because neither crossed my threshold of being decent human beings. It is great to hear that you did the same.
 
You’re gonna have to expound on that more...

How does shutting down illegal immigration make it worse? What is fixed by making it easy for people to come and go? And what does ‘come and go’ even mean? Who wants to come and go? Like cross the border to work for a one day? If that’s what you’re referring to, you’re talking about a small number of immigrants. Most want to come permanently, and most don’t want to stay by the border.


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For a start -

This is a wonderful podcast discussing the issue.

And it just makes sense.
 
Your points are well taken.

I would counter by noting that a large part of the problem was created by doctors who overprescribed the stuff while telling patients it wasn't addictive. There are a whole lot of reasons for that, ranging from "pain is the 5th vital sign" bull**** leading to overagressive pain treatment, to doctors being taught that opioids when used for real pain didn't carry the same dependency risk, to actual unscupulous predatory pain clinics.

But in any case ... I have always argued that the best way to reduce social ills like drug addiction and suicide is to attack the core reasons people are unhappy and hopeless in the first place. Education, a strong economy where all workers make solid living wages, etc.

And in the end, as I have also always argued, I value individual choice and freedom above almost everything else, and the dirty little secret of real freedom is that you're on your own, free to mess up your life. I'm willing to accept that some people will destroy themselves, in return for broad freedom from a nanny state. Drug addicts are only a danger to the rest of us when they have to commit crimes to get their drugs. Prohibition is morally wrong, and objectively harmful to all of us.

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Yawn.



Shocking. Wanting to smear someone for making one innocuous post on a FB group that had some people saying vulgar things.

Ask any medical person here if the public would be appalled by things said in the OR or the ED. Doesn’t change the quality of the medical care. Just how people deal with hard, morbid, scary etc situations. I know this will go above your head as you aren’t in the medical profession, but it’s still valid. Ask around.



Step 1 every time: Attack the messenger. Check.


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It does change “the quality of care”, someone can be skilled but that doesn’t equate that the quality of care in profoundly impaired—period.

You contortions of what is ok and morally permissible are like a young Romanian gymnast in 1988. You know they say Jeffery Epstein was quite the math teacher back in the day, very technical but able to simply translate complex math principles. So, should we have signed up your daughters for some after school tutorials?

Even if we were to give you this profound pass on the this vile idea, even under the best of circumstances the problem remains is that these same individuals, at the very least, are dealing in tropes and monolithic ideas about entire sectors of people/gender and eventually it takes away from actual patient care with bad outcomes. Thus, no matter how great the technical skill and dexterity in the execution of medicine, the patient does suffer and this is actually proven by a host of studies.




 
I never said things people say are morally right or even that its ok by me. I just said that it happens a lot, and it doesnt invalidate the knowledge or skill of the medical provider. And comparatively, when I quote someone who knows WAY more about the border than you who says they want and need more walls, and they are bashed because they posted completely bland inconsequential comments online in the company of people who have said mean things, that's garbage. Her opinion is not in any way invalidated, as was Mr Boo's intent when linking that article.





So its cool to talk about adding TRILLIONS of dollars to the federal budget for some nonsense like medicare 4 all, but adding 10-20 billion to ramp up border security is nuts. K.




We've been talking about overstayed visas, and yeah, its a SEPERATE problem to be dealt with. I don't know why y'all constantly mention that as a retort to dealing with the border. It's like someone coming in with a broken leg and a broken arm, and you refusing to address the broken arm. And when the patient asks, "Hey, you gonna fix my arm?" you reply "Quiet dummy, you have a broken leg."




We HAVE been talking about employment of illegals a bunch recently, so.....




Well, you're wrong, cause people spout over and over (even on here) that "WALLS DONT WORK!" I've never seen a liberal with a protest sign chanting "WALLS ARE ONLY MODERATELY EFFECTIVE!!!!"

And hundreds of thousands of people per year is different than 5.




And there it is. Its all fake, there's no border crisis, no MS-13, no drug cartels, nothing to see here, just pure innocent people and a racist president making stuff up.

Well I disagree that a doctor being vulgar, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc does not invalidate their knowledge and how they treat people. But that's probably a discussion for another day, hence why I said you should read about history of this.

Medicare for all is a totally separate conversation. I certainly don't agree with medicare for all, so I'm not sure why that's being brought in to the conversation. I do think there are major problems with the healthcare system in this country that need to be addressed...less spending and an overall healthier country with better access for all will make for a healthier nation (more productivity, less missed work, etc).

But back to the discussion, overstaying visas is often brought up because undocumented immigrants mostly come from those, so it seems like a valid point to bring up.
The analogy of a broken leg and broken arm doesn't quite work because thankfully those are generally 2 straight forward problems to fix and don't take billions of dollars in resources.
Undocumented immigration is not a 1 stop issue. When people say "walls don't work" they typically mean all of the things that many of us have mentioned on here, that it would be a waste of resources for the benefit. One always has to weigh the risk vs benefits. So again, money and resources are not infinite, so why would it be a radical idea to put most of that money and resources towards solutions that get to the root of the cause and account for most of the problems?

And as I said above most people and families would prefer to stay in their home countries if they feel they are safe and have jobs. There are few people that risk harm by traveling for months "just for fun." So lets talk about some of the root causes of those problems. There is pretty compelling evidence that global warming is adversely affecting communities who rely on agriculture in central america for example. Yet, the US is pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement...yes that makes perfect sense to help with this border "crisis."

Same thing with DACA...again a reasonable solution to help reduce undocumented immigrants that needs to be expanded to give them a path to citizenship, but trump also disagrees with that.

And no I didn't say that gangs and drugs don't exist. But since you brought that point up most drugs enter at LEGAL entry points. So again a border wall is not going to solve that problem. It's another risk vs benefit analysis. It really is ok to not agree with everything trump does or says.
 
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Wish I could like your post more than once. He's exactly right in every way, and says in a more articulate way what I was trying to. "A core part of addiction [...] is about not being able to bear to be present in your life."

Addicts were mostly miserable, hopeless, disconnected people before they became addicts. We have built a system designed to make the problem worse, by shaming and punishing them. Then, after incarceration is up, they're branded as criminals and it's that much harder for them to reconnect with society.

The War On Drugs isn't just a terrible and counterproductive endeavor, it's actually a force of evil. Hopefully it won't take us another 100 years to stop screwing this up, and repurpose those resources toward actually helping addicts. Legalizing marijuana is a good start but all of it needs to be legal.
 
Well I disagree that a doctor being vulgar, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc does not invalidate their knowledge and how they treat people. But that's probably a discussion for another day, hence why I said you should read about history of this.

Medicare for all is a totally separate conversation. I certainly don't agree with medicare for all, so I'm not sure why that's being brought in to the conversation. I do think there are major problems with the healthcare system in this country that need to be addressed...less spending and an overall healthier country with better access for all will make for a healthier nation (more productivity, less missed work, etc).

But back to the discussion, overstaying visas is often brought up because undocumented immigrants mostly come from those, so it seems like a valid point to bring up.
The analogy of a broken leg and broken arm doesn't quite work because thankfully those are generally 2 straight forward problems to fix and don't take billions of dollars in resources.
Undocumented immigration is not a 1 stop issue. When people say "walls don't work" they typically mean all of the things that many of us have mentioned on here, that it would be a waste of resources for the benefit. One always has to weigh the risk vs benefits. So again, money and resources are not infinite, so why would it be a radical idea to put most of that money and resources towards solutions that get to the root of the cause and account for most of the problems?

And as I said above most people and families would prefer to stay in their home countries if they feel they are safe and have jobs. There are few people that risk harm by traveling for months "just for fun." So lets talk about some of the root causes of those problems. There is pretty compelling evidence that global warming is adversely affecting communities who rely on agriculture in central america for example. Yet, the US is pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement...yes that makes perfect sense to help with this border "crisis."

Same thing with DACA...again a reasonable solution to help reduce undocumented immigrants that needs to be expanded to give them a path to citizenship, but trump also disagrees with that.

And no I didn't say that gangs and drugs don't exist. But since you brought that point up most drugs enter at LEGAL entry points. So again a border wall is not going to solve that problem. It's another risk vs benefit analysis. It really is ok to not agree with everything trump does or says.

I’m sorry, I was gonna respond to your post, but I don’t have the energy. Especially went you start going the route of global warming nonsense is responsible for illegal immigrants.


I just can’t...[emoji21]


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Well I disagree that a doctor being vulgar, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc does not invalidate their knowledge and how they treat people. But that's probably a discussion for another day, hence why I said you should read about history of this.

Medicare for all is a totally separate conversation. I certainly don't agree with medicare for all, so I'm not sure why that's being brought in to the conversation. I do think there are major problems with the healthcare system in this country that need to be addressed...less spending and an overall healthier country with better access for all will make for a healthier nation (more productivity, less missed work, etc).

But back to the discussion, overstaying visas is often brought up because undocumented immigrants mostly come from those, so it seems like a valid point to bring up.
The analogy of a broken leg and broken arm doesn't quite work because thankfully those are generally 2 straight forward problems to fix and don't take billions of dollars in resources.
Undocumented immigration is not a 1 stop issue. When people say "walls don't work" they typically mean all of the things that many of us have mentioned on here, that it would be a waste of resources for the benefit. One always has to weigh the risk vs benefits. So again, money and resources are not infinite, so why would it be a radical idea to put most of that money and resources towards solutions that get to the root of the cause and account for most of the problems?

And as I said above most people and families would prefer to stay in their home countries if they feel they are safe and have jobs. There are few people that risk harm by traveling for months "just for fun." So lets talk about some of the root causes of those problems. There is pretty compelling evidence that global warming is adversely affecting communities who rely on agriculture in central america for example. Yet, the US is pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement...yes that makes perfect sense to help with this border "crisis."

Same thing with DACA...again a reasonable solution to help reduce undocumented immigrants that needs to be expanded to give them a path to citizenship, but trump also disagrees with that.

And no I didn't say that gangs and drugs don't exist. But since you brought that point up most drugs enter at LEGAL entry points. So again a border wall is not going to solve that problem. It's another risk vs benefit analysis. It really is ok to not agree with everything trump does or says.

I’m sorry, I was gonna respond to your post, but I don’t have the energy. Especially went you start going the route of global warming nonsense is responsible for illegal immigrants.


I just can’t...[emoji21]


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And obviously it’s wall + increased BP agents, plus increased tech.


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Especially the latter two. A wall is just a worthless waste of money, as long as there are tunnels and the BP agents are not authorized to shoot anybody DEAD on the border strip (if they don't stop after a couple of warning shots), AS IN ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY. Just try walking over the Schengen border in Europe and see what happens.

Tulsi is right when she says: no border, no country.
 
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No, it does not dispute all of my claims. Do you know how to read?

They estimate 12 billion/year paid in taxes. And they estimate 11 billion illegals (which is a BS number, as the number is 22 million, per a Yale/MIT study). Your article also reads, "Factoring out kids, nonworking immigrants and those working in the underground economy and not paying taxes..." Thereby admitting that there's a host of illegals who get away without income tax.

But let's take the incorrectly oft-quoted number of 11 million illegals. Your article states that they ostensibly pay 12 billion/year in taxes. That's about $1,000 put into the pot. Did you see what else your article states? "Heritage noted that the average undocumented immigrant household received about $24,721 in government benefits and services (i.e. public education, welfare benefits and services like police and highways)..." Great - they drain, on net, $23,721 annually. Hooray?

And the article didn't address my points about healthcare dollars, pricing low-skilled Americans out of the labor market, or skewing politics leftward (e.g., by counting toward the census, a step Trump has tried to combat but on which he's been thwarted by treasonous Leftist judges).

Judgment: illegals are a massive drain on America's economy and society.

Do you know how to read?


“Economic impact
Main article: Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States
Illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy and contribute to economic growth.[16] Illegal immigrants contribute to lower prices of US-produced goods and services, which benefits consumers.[16]
Economists estimate that legalization of the current unauthorized immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings[6][7][8][159][16] and consumption considerably.[9] A 2016 National Bureau of Economic Research paper found that "legalization would increase the economic contribution of the unauthorized population by about 20%, to 3.6% of private-sector GDP."[160]Legalization is also likely to reduce untaxed labor in the informal economy.[16] A 2016 study found that Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), which allows unauthorized immigrants who migrated to the United States as minors to temporarily stay, increases labor force participation, decreases the unemployment rate and increases the income for DACA-eligible immigrants.[161] The study estimated that DACA moved 50,000 to 75,000 unauthorized immigrants into employment.[161]Another 2016 study found that DACA-eligible households were 38% less likely than non-eligible unauthorized immigrant households to live in poverty.[162]
A 2017 study in the Journal of Public Economics found that more intense immigration enforcement increased the likelihood that US-born children with illegal immigrant parents would live in poverty.[163]
Native welfare
A number of studies have shown that illegal immigration increases the welfare of natives.[164][4][5] A 2015 study found that " increasing deportation rates and tightening border control weakens low-skilled labor markets, increasing unemployment of native low-skilled workers. Legalization, instead, decreases the unemployment rate of low-skilled natives and increases income per native."[165] A study by economist Giovanni Peri concluded that between 1990 and 2004, immigrant workers raised the wages of native born workers in general by 4%, while more recent immigrants suppressed wages of previous immigrants.[166]
In a 2017 literature review by the National Academy of Sciences, they explain the positive impact of illegal immigrants on natives in the following way:[16]
The entry of new workers through migration increases the likelihood of filling a vacant position quickly and thus reduces the net cost of posting new offers. The fact that immigrants in each skill category earn less than natives reinforces this effect. Though immigrants compete with natives for these additional jobs, the overall number of new positions employers choose to create is larger than the number of additional entrants to the labor market. The effect is to lower the unemployment rate and to strengthen the bargaining position of workers.
According to Georgetown University economist Anna Maria Mayda and University of California, Davis economist Giovanni Peri, "deportation of undocumented immigrants not only threatens the day-to-day life of several million people, it also undermines the economic viability of entire sectors of the US economy." Research shows that illegal immigrants complement and extend middle- and high-skilled American workers, making it possible for those sectors to employ more Americans. Without access to illegal immigrants, U.S. firms would be incentivized to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods. Several highly competitive sectors that depend disproportionately on illegal immigrant labor, such as agriculture, would dramatically shrink and sectors, such as hospitality and food services, would see higher prices for consumers. Regions and cities that have large illegal populations are also likely to see harms to the local economy were the illegal immigrant population removed. While Mayda and Peri note that some low-skilled American workers would see marginal gains, it is likely that the effects on net job creation and wages would be negative for the U.S. as a whole.[3]
A 2002 study of the effects of illegal immigration and border enforcement on wages in border communities from 1990 to 1997 found little impact of border enforcement on wages in U.S. border cities, and concluded that their findings were consistent with two hypotheses, "border enforcement has a minimal impact on illegal immigration, and illegal immigration from Mexico has a minimal impact on wages in U.S. border cities".[167]
According to University of California, San Diego economist Gordon H. Hanson, "there is little evidence that legal immigration is economically preferable to illegal immigration. In fact, illegal immigration responds to market forces in ways that legal immigration does not. Illegal migrants tend to arrive in larger numbers when the U.S. economy is booming (relative to Mexico and the Central American countries that are the source of most illegal immigration to the United States) and move to regions where job growth is strong. Legal immigration, in contrast, is subject to arbitrary selection criteria and bureaucratic delays, which tend to disassociate legal inflows from U.S. labor-market conditions. Over the last half-century, there appears to be little or no response of legal immigration to the U.S. unemployment rate."[168]
Fiscal effects
Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most federally-funded safety net programs.[169]Illegal immigrants are barred from receiving benefits from Medicare, non-emergency Medicaid, or the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and the Medicare program; they also cannot participate in health insurance marketplaces and are not eligible to receive insurance subsidies under the Affordable Care Act.[169] Illegal immigrants contribute up to $12 billion annually to the Social Security Trust Fund, but are not eligible to receive any Social Security benefits.[169] Unless the illegal immigrants transition to legal status, they will not collect these benefits.[169][16] According to a 2007 literature review by the Congressional Budget Office, "Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[2]
While the aggregate fiscal effects are beneficial to the United States, unauthorized immigration has small but net negative fiscal effects on state and local governments.[2]According to the 2017 National Academy of Science report on immigration, one reason for the adverse fiscal impact on state and local governments is that "the federal government reimburses state and local entities a fraction of costs to incarcerate criminal aliens, the remaining costs are borne by local governments."[16]
A paper in the peer-reviewed journal Tax Lawyer from the American Bar Associationconcluded that illegal immigrants contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services.[170]
A 2016 study found that, over the period 2000–2011, illegal immigrants contributed $2.2 to $3.8 billion more to the Medicare Trust Fund "than they withdrew annually (a total surplus of $35.1 billion). Had unauthorized immigrants neither contributed to nor withdrawn from the Trust Fund during those 11 years, it would become insolvent in 2029—1 year earlier than currently predicted."[171]“
 
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Interesting, but what is causing these “diseases of despair?” Clearly we need to change our thinking about how we approach addiction, and decriminalizing drugs would be a good start. However, we need to also think about why people are turning to drugs in the first place. This guy sort of implicates social media, but is that all? We are in the midst of a record bull market and unemployment is down. People should be busy, happy, and optimistic...or are the stock market and unemployment numbers not the full story?
 
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For those interested in learning and being open to new ideas, here is some information about climate migrants and how climate and agricultural change affects migration:



 
Interesting, but what is causing these “diseases of despair?” Clearly we need to change our thinking about how we approach addiction, and decriminalizing drugs would be a good start. However, we need to also think about why people are turning to drugs in the first place. This guy sort of implicates social media, but is that all? We are in the midst of a record bull market and unemployment is down. People should be busy, happy, and optimistic...or are the stock market and unemployment numbers not the full story?

Social media isn’t all the story - but his point that we are more lonely and disconnected than ever is probably a root cause. Social media just feeds that.

T horeau said, "For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root."

We need to find the root.
 
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