Work Hours/Institutions

[J324K]

Hye, I'm new on the forum and only a lowly pre-med, but I have read through many, MANY threads on this forum. I know similar subjects have been broached before (duke malignancy, etc.), but I was interested, after reading scutwork.com, about if there are any programs that flat-out ignore the work hour restrictions, maybe cover it up, etc., but basically subscribe to the old system of working >100 hrs./week average. From what I can see, I am interested in academic surgery, and I wondered if there were any real "old-school" programs left? Thanks

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[dynx]

Hye, I'm new on the forum and only a lowly pre-med, but I have read through many, MANY threads on this forum. I know similar subjects have been broached before (duke malignancy, etc.), but I was interested, after reading scutwork.com, about if there are any programs that flat-out ignore the work hour restrictions, maybe cover it up, etc., but basically subscribe to the old system of working >100 hrs./week average. From what I can see, I am interested in academic surgery, and I wondered if there were any real "old-school" programs left? Thanks

I think the vast majority still go over 80 on a regular basis. I'm at a program that really tries and I've still had a couple of 110 hour weeks and quite a few 90 hour weeks but mostly im at about 80.

In medical school my program was NOT really dedicated to the 80 hour work week but they still were under 100 hrs for at least 90% of the time from what I saw/heard. avg. was probably around 90.

only 2 programs but...thats all I got.

 

[Pilot Doc]

if there are any programs that flat-out ignore the work hour restrictions, maybe cover it up, etc., but basically subscribe to the old system of working >100 hrs./week average.

My impression is that most programs fit that description.

 

[CTS]

we work 79.5 hours a week

 

[Biscuit799]

Everyone will tell you about how well they stay under 80/wk. Then they work you 90-100 hours per week and yell at you for going over.

 

[RamJamA]

J324K, I hope you won't spend your precious pre-med time worrying about this stuff. Its hard enough to get into medical school much less go on to match in surgery. Enjoy what you are doing now, these are good times! Good luck to you, remember to keep an open mind about things.

Surgeons and surgical residents still work harder than anyone else, that is well-known. Our field is for people who like to work hard. That said, surgical residencies in general involve less hours in the hospital than they used to. The changes I have seen over the past 10 years are remarkable, although like others have said, our residents still work a lot. And because our residents aren't in the hospital as much, things tend to be busier when they are there, so those 90 hours don't involve any down time if you will.

You mention hearing about difficult programs. Years from now you will realize that the most selective places are often given the "malignant" label that I hear students talk about these days. Surgical powerhouses like Duke and WashU and MGH and the like continue to attract top applicants from around the country. Of course top applicants go elsewhere also, but these places year in and year out get to pick the best of an incredibly outstanding pool. I don't think these residents necessarily work a whole lot more than residents at good community programs or lesser-known academic programs, but perhaps they have more responsibilities in addition to patient care, namely research. It is also worth considering that traditional top programs like MGH, Duke, etc attract medical students who love the term you use, "old school," to them it means excellence.

 

[J324K]

J324K, I hope you won't spend your precious pre-med time worrying about this stuff. Its hard enough to get into medical school much less go on to match in surgery. Enjoy what you are doing now, these are good times! Good luck to you, remember to keep an open mind about things.

Surgeons and surgical residents still work harder than anyone else, that is well-known. Our field is for people who like to work hard. That said, surgical residencies in general involve less hours in the hospital than they used to. The changes I have seen over the past 10 years are remarkable, although like others have said, our residents still work a lot. And because our residents aren't in the hospital as much, things tend to be busier when they are there, so those 90 hours don't involve any down time if you will.

You mention hearing about difficult programs. Years from now you will realize that the most selective places are often given the "malignant" label that I hear students talk about these days. Surgical powerhouses like Duke and WashU and MGH and the like continue to attract top applicants from around the country. Of course top applicants go elsewhere also, but these places year in and year out get to pick the best of an incredibly outstanding pool. I don't think these residents necessarily work a whole lot more than residents at good community programs or lesser-known academic programs, but perhaps they have more responsibilities in addition to patient care, namely research. It is also worth considering that traditional top programs like MGH, Duke, etc attract medical students who love the term you use, "old school," to them it means excellence.

I understand. I asked the question out of pure curiosity. And, FYI, I love the descriptor, "old school", as well.

 

[Hilltopper]

When the time comes for one to choose a residency program, you should first decide how you envision you career path. If you choose to pursue a purely clinical path, one of the "old school" programs may not suite you well. However, if academic surgery is in your differential, then an "old school" program may be worth your consideration. While the residents at those programs may be held to a very high standard by both their peers and superiors, their demand for achievement will serve you well through your career. Usually, these programs have a tradition that associates them with the "old school."

 

[SLUser11]

When the time comes for one to choose a residency program, you should first decide how you envision you career path. If you choose to pursue a purely clinical path, one of the "old school" programs may not suite you well. However, if academic surgery is in your differential, then an "old school" program may be worth your consideration. While the residents at those programs may be held to a very high standard by both their peers and superiors, their demand for achievement will serve you well through your career. Usually, these programs have a tradition that associates them with the "old school."

I sort of disagree. While some of the most prestigious programs in the nation have a certain amount of malignancy, there are plenty of crap programs as well that could be called "old school."

There are plenty of places that have a malignant environment and also have a crappy education, poor operative experience, and limited post-residency opportunities. It's not always a "pay to play" situation.

As for career choices, I agree that someone interested in basic science research should go to a big academic center....if that's what you mean by a career in academic surgery.