Yes or no question

[LGIC]

For the foreseeable future, will it be possible to make >$110K and work <60 hrs/week in pathology?

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[LGIC]

<60 hours/week

 

[MirkoCrocop]

<60 hours/week

Yeah, easy, but when you're in your 30s and have never really made good money, you just wan to make at least 150k on 50 hrs.

 

[Path or bust]

For the foreseeable future, will it be possible to make >$110K and work <60 hrs/week in pathology?

>300K, <45h

 

[lipomas]

What? That's a stupid question. I would wager that at least 80-90% of pathologists work less than 60 hours a week and make more than $110k. And the remaining 10-20% are at "elite academic institutions" where they are paying their dues for a couple of years or they are the few who work more than 60 hours a week.

 

[mlw03]

>300K, <45h

Same here (a few weeks so far just under 50h, but most ~ 40h).

 

[KeratinPearls]

Same here (a few weeks so far just under 50h, but most ~ 40h).

I know some pathologists who actually work less than 40 hours. I am talking "real work" aka signing out cases.

Pathologists where I did residency were out at 5 pm, some at 4 pm depending if they were on service or not. Some chose to stay later (630 - 7 pm).

 

[Enkidu]

What? That's a stupid question. I would wager that at least 80-90% of pathologists work less than 60 hours a week and make more than $110k. And the remaining 10-20% are at "elite academic institutions" where they are paying their dues for a couple of years or they are the few who work more than 60 hours a week.

Hang on - that's not a stupid question. The OP is probably considering a career in pathology but has been scared by this forum. He probably posted his minimum acceptable career interests to see if pathology is worth pursuing. It turns out that the reality of pathology practice is more than twice as good as he was willing to settle for.

Give the guy a break - this forum is probably the most confusing resource on pathology that a medical student could ask for. We ALL consider our worst acceptable scenario when we come here. And luckily for us the reality of pathology appears to be far better.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Hang on - that's not a stupid question. The OP is probably considering a career in pathology but has been scared by this forum. He probably posted his minimum acceptable career interests to see if pathology is worth pursuing. It turns out that the reality of pathology practice is more than twice as good as he was willing to settle for.

Give the guy a break - this forum is probably the most confusing resource on pathology that a medical student could ask for. We ALL consider our worst acceptable scenario when we come here. And luckily for us the reality of pathology appears to be far better.

I would agree with this.

 

[mlw03]

I know some pathologists who actually work less than 40 hours. I am talking "real work" aka signing out cases.

Pathologists where I did residency were out at 5 pm, some at 4 pm depending if they were on service or not. Some chose to stay later (630 - 7 pm).

In my opinion, "real work" would include anything one has to do as part of their job. The administrative parts of a pathologist's job count in my book. As an FP, my time is simply spent differently.

Now I do not recall any of the faculty where I did residency ever leaving by 5pm, whether they were on service that day/week or not. But the faculty where I trained were pretty abused, in my opinion.

 

[malchik]

In my opinion, "real work" would include anything one has to do as part of their job. The administrative parts of a pathologist's job count in my book. As an FP, my time is simply spent differently.

Now I do not recall any of the faculty where I did residency ever leaving by 5pm, whether they were on service that day/week or not. But the faculty where I trained were pretty abused, in my opinion.

You make >300k doing fp?

 

[mlw03]

Yes.

 

[Entgegen]

You make >300k doing fp?

Check out his location though. I doubt you'd find too many FPs in the US pulling >300K.

 

[mlw03]

Entegen is correct. Not uncommon to see up here, much less so in US. Is why there are a number if US expats working in path up here, forensic or diagnostic (similar salaries).

 

[KCShaw]

My understanding is The Northerners banded together (interesting concept) to make those salaries happen -- which is also why for the most part their salaries are similar.

FP's south of that border make maybe a little more than half that on average (in U.S. dollars -- but it's essentially 1:1 right now with Canada), or in the region of ~150k fresh out of fellowship. It's true you won't find many FP's salaried over 250k, and hardly any over 300k, and most of those will be chiefs in high cost-of-living areas. A few may do a little better running efficient private groups but still doing the state's/county's day-to-day work, but they take on more risk and administrative issues in doing so.

It used to be that FP's leveraged general pathologist's salaries in order to raise our own, and that may still work for a while, but it may not be long before we're back to pointing out how critical our roles are in keeping the voting populace happy (by providing quality services relating to law enforcement and the court system). The forensic sciences in general are relatively sexy right now, just not all that well funded. But, I digress.

 

[Entgegen]

Entegen is correct. Not uncommon to see up here, much less so in US. Is why there are a number if US expats working in path up here, forensic or diagnostic (similar salaries).

Just thought of something...I had a conversation several weeks ago with an ME and I had mentioned the salary difference in FP between the US and Canada. He said that the tax rate is significantly higher in Canada, and so the average true take-home pay isn't that much different between the two, though Canada still comes out ahead a little. There also happened to be a fellow from Canada (did residency in Canada, now doing FP fellowship in the US) nearby who more or less confirmed the notion.

Thoughts?

 

[mlw03]

Just thought of something...I had a conversation several weeks ago with an ME and I had mentioned the salary difference in FP between the US and Canada. He said that the tax rate is significantly higher in Canada, and so the average true take-home pay isn't that much different between the two, though Canada still comes out ahead a little. There also happened to be a fellow from Canada (did residency in Canada, now doing FP fellowship in the US) nearby who more or less confirmed the notion.

Thoughts?

I'd disagree with that, namely the adjective 'significant'. Higher, yes. Significantly, no, I don't think so. I keep about 60-62% of my paycheck. Provincial sales tax does not exist in this provinces, so everything has the 5% federal GST only. Cost of living is definitely higher, on the order of 20% I'd estimate.

So doing some quick math: 60% of 300K = 180K

Compare with 35% rate for someone in say, California or New York that has a state income tax: 65% of 175K = 114K

My estimates may be a bit off, but I think at least 60K more take home is about right, and CAD and USD have been at virtual parity for a while now. I would argue 60K more take home yields a significant difference in dispensible income and lifestyle.

I'm grateful for what I had in the US, but professionally, pathologists who can deal with the colder climate should give serious consideration to Canada. It may not be the right choice for everyone, but until the US salaries come up a bit, I would love to see more ex-pats coming up here. Canada bumped salaries because for years no one was doing path up here, and eventually some very serious diagnostic mistakes were made. Then salaries went up, more Canadians chose path, and immigrants from the US, UK, Australia, and South Africa came. I could see the same thing happening in the US if the numbers dropped back to 30% of path residents being AMG, and there being major problems by academic and private groups to find good pathologists who can actually communicate in English. Then maybe pathologists would get the salary bump and respect the important work we do warrants.

Ok, jumping off my soapbox now. In summary, J'aime bien Canada (I like Canada... no, you don't have to speak French except in Québec, and I don't - just taking a night class because, well, I have the time and money to do so).

 

[EMH Mark V]

I'm grateful for what I had in the US, but professionally, pathologists who can deal with the colder climate should give serious consideration to Canada. It may not be the right choice for everyone, but until the US salaries come up a bit, I would love to see more ex-pats coming up here. Canada bumped salaries because for years no one was doing path up here, and eventually some very serious diagnostic mistakes were made. Then salaries went up, more Canadians chose path, and immigrants from the US, UK, Australia, and South Africa came. I could see the same thing happening in the US if the numbers dropped back to 30% of path residents being AMG, and there being major problems by academic and private groups to find good pathologists who can actually communicate in English. Then maybe pathologists would get the salary bump and respect the important work we do warrants.

If you don't mind me asking, but did you have to take the Canadian Royal College - Anatomic Pathology Exam, or were you able to practice just having ACGME training alone without extra training/exams? I get the impression it may be sub-specialty dependent?

 

[Enkidu]

Just thought of something...I had a conversation several weeks ago with an ME and I had mentioned the salary difference in FP between the US and Canada. He said that the tax rate is significantly higher in Canada, and so the average true take-home pay isn't that much different between the two, though Canada still comes out ahead a little. There also happened to be a fellow from Canada (did residency in Canada, now doing FP fellowship in the US) nearby who more or less confirmed the notion.

Thoughts?

Well - there are indirect benefits of living in Canada as well. Better social services, less crime... taxes are ostensibly spent on the community, after all.

Also you have to consider the purchasing power of an American dollar in Canada. I'm not sure what it is now, but when I was a kid the exchange was pretty good.

 

[mlw03]

If you don't mind me asking, but did you have to take the Canadian Royal College - Anatomic Pathology Exam, or were you able to practice just having ACGME training alone without extra training/exams? I get the impression it may be sub-specialty dependent?

No - did not take any Canadian exams. My US training and AP certification were accepted in this province. I believe it's not specialty-dependent, rather province-dependent. Ontario, BC, and Québec are much tougher to get into than Atlantic Canada or the Prairies.

And to Enkidu's point, yes, definitely other benefits. Higher taxes, but no monthly payment for healthcare. We can debate socialized medicine another time, but it's nice not paying for a service I virtually never used as a young, healthy adult. 1USD = 1CAD (or extremely close, less than 2 cents apart) for the last year. If really curious, this is the site I'm supposed to use when turning in receipts for stuff paid for in USD: http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/.

 

[gbwillner]

I thought I would post some fist-hand info that is relevant to this forum.

I completed my residency at a "top" institution and did 1 fellowship. In that time:

1. All pathologists I know either got jobs or fellowships elsewhere at the completion of their training.
2. About equal numbers of the pathologists I have known have taken private or academic jobs. I kept in touch with most in academia, some in PP.
3. Academic job salaries that I KNOW about have ranged from $160K-240K. These are primarily in the mid-west and south. ALL have had signing/moving bonuses. The CP-only people I know have a slightly lower range.
4. PP jobs (starting) have ranged about the same (the upper end was a little higher, of course).
5. I know 1 pathologist who got a PP job in the southwest, but lost his job due to financial pressures on his group about a year later. He quickly found a job in another state.
6. The only "jobless" pathologist I ever met was the day I took the boards, and they were taking them for the 3rd time. He made it seem he would regain his job upon passing. I don't know any more specifics.

This doesn't say anything about the future of the field. But RIGHT NOW, it's not as bad as it's made out to be on this forum.

 

[Kunu]

Median income in path is not >300k and will not be increasing n the near future.
B/c there is a lucky anecdote here and there that do; don't kid yourself that is the norm.

 

[yaah]

Median income in path is not >300k and will not be increasing n the near future.
B/c there is a lucky anecdote here and there that do; don't kid yourself that is the norm.

You have to be careful - you can't dismiss anecdotes that don't agree with your worldview while simultaneously trumpeting anecdotes that do.

IMHO and in my experience the anecdotes of those having major trouble (not minor trouble) with the job market are the outliers. Note that this is not to say the job market is wonderful and optimal.