Yes, we chose Pharmacy

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The problem is that real pharmacists don’t even do anything clinical in the retail setting, so even if they wanted to give students “learning opportunities” they couldn’t because they themselves don’t do anything that requires specialized knowledge. The best you can do to help a student learn in the retail setting is to either stick them at the consultation window or debrief on a patient once you get an interesting prescription/case. You aren’t going to make them prepare a topic discussion or do a research project because that is just not how retail works. So at the end of the day, that is why you make your students fill prescriptions all day. Blame the profession, not the preceptor.

If you have a backbone you can get your money's worth even in a retail rotation. I had an "MTM" rotation with Wags and the preceptor made it clear on day 1 that when I'd get done with the MTM opportunities I'd be filling. I got done with the MTM stuff in 3 days, then she just tried to have me fill all day. I straight up told her that this is a clinical elective and I'm here to learn not fill so if she can let me study for the NAPLEX all day between MTM I'm cool with that. She ended up pulling few clinical projects for me (these were created for Walgreens interns but I doubt anyone actually did them) and I helped them fill 1 hour a day at most in return. A lot of this stuff ended up being helpful to me..

Next few students who came to that same site, with ranging rotations from community to MTM to management, all told me she just had them fill all day...

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I straight up told her that this is a clinical elective and I'm here to learn not fill so if she can let me study for the NAPLEX all day between MTM I'm cool with that.

Next few students who came to that same site, with ranging rotations from community to MTM to management, all told me she just had them fill all day...

Yeap, but I have seen these same preceptors call and b!tch at the school and threaten to FAIL the student. These crap preceptors see students as free labor. I even heard grocery store managers tell my preceptors to take on more students and CUT tech hours. No BS. Preceptors are a joke. Pharmacist are so over worked, they don't have time to teach anything, they just want extra hands to fill and met metrics. The **** part is that the school allow the abuse because they want the students to get their hours and they want the tuition money.
 
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Yeap, but I have seen these same preceptors call and b!tch at the school and threaten to FAIL the student. These crap preceptors see students as free labor. I even heard grocery store managers tell my preceptors to take on more students and CUT tech hours. No BS. Preceptors are a joke. Pharmacist are so over worked, they don't have time to teach anything, they just want extra hands to fill and met metrics. The **** part is that the school allow the abuse because they want the students to get their hours and they want the tuition money.


Would be even more awesome if she failed them for filling all day. Maybe she is doing this as a test to see if the student will speak up for themselves regarding filling all day.
 
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Would be even more awesome if she failed them for filling all day. Maybe she is doing this as a test to see if the student will speak up for themselves regarding filling all day.

I only wish. With long lines and phones ringing off the hook...with only 1 tech and 1 pharmacist...I only wished they cared enough to "test" a student's willingness to speak up. I know a student who spoke up about not learning anything while filling...there was about to be a fight and my money is on the student.
 
Would be even more awesome if she failed them for filling all day. Maybe she is doing this as a test to see if the student will speak up for themselves regarding filling all day.

Lol the joys of teaching an eager pharmacy student in retail. "Sooo these are all the metrics that you have to pay attention to. If these scores go down, your supervisor will breathe down your neck. Did they cover this in pharmacy school yet?" Then they'll want to practice their counseling skills so they'll maybe get an opportunity to counsel 1/50 patient but the student will try to impress the preceptor and say something like, "Yeah and some of the side-effects include hepatoxicity and renal failure. Make sure you take it with food!"
 
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Yeap, but I have seen these same preceptors call and b!tch at the school and threaten to FAIL the student. These crap preceptors see students as free labor. I even heard grocery store managers tell my preceptors to take on more students and CUT tech hours. No BS. Preceptors are a joke. Pharmacist are so over worked, they don't have time to teach anything, they just want extra hands to fill and met metrics. The **** part is that the school allow the abuse because they want the students to get their hours and they want the tuition money.

True question: As a pharmacist working under these conditions:

1. Can you refuse to precept students without consequences to your daily job or to your professional advancement for your own mental sanity (i.e. PREVENTION OF BURNOUT)?
2. Is some unwritten rule forcing pharmacists to take on new students even when they are overworked with their daily duties?
3. Is certain language being used by managers to justify the need to "mentor" these students: The "Oath of a Pharmacist," "professionalism and behavior issues" listed on employer and preceptor evaluations, goals to "advance the profession," etcetera?
4. Does this context involved in questions 1-3 apply to other fields of pharmacy other than retail, independent, MTM, contract, or per-diem work?

I am seeking a true answer from experienced pharmacists who have encountered these situations and who dealt with them professionally.
 
I will only take students for community IPPE and APPE. "Making" retail pharmacists take students for "MTM" or "administration" is a freakin joke.
 
When I was a student on my retail rotation I would gladly fill all day. I didn’t care - I just wanted the day over with so I could move on to the next dog and pony show.
 
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(Posting the following as a Pre-Pharm starting school in August, not as a moderator)

There are so many threads in the Pre-Pharmacy section regarding all the reasons people should not be going into Pharmacy. I was going to link them, but then this post would be really long.

There are many of us Pre-Pharmacy students on the boards, much to the frustration of those who have come before us.

Yes, Pharmacy is an over-crowded field. I don't know that anyone is truly disputing that fact. But hear me out, there will always be a need for students coming up behind those already in the field in order to replace those that retire, move on, etc. The real issue isn't that there are Pharmacy Students, but how many of them.

I want to offer up a discussion point for you all.

There are 2 primary groups of Pharmacy Students: Those on SDN and those that are not.

Instead of being the doom/gloom to those students you have access to on these boards, why aren't there more posts helping students become the best Pharmacists that they can be in order to mold and shape those you want to be in the field. There are opportunities to network, to share the knowledge of the Collective, to provide real world advice, to offer help navigating the process, etc...

All the non-SDN pharmacy students out there would be missing out on this information and would be at a disadvantage from an information perspective.

If knowledge is power, why aren't we using the power better?
Hopefully you have changed course by now?
 
True question: As a pharmacist working under these conditions:

1. Can you refuse to precept students without consequences to your daily job or to your professional advancement for your own mental sanity (i.e. PREVENTION OF BURNOUT)?
2. Is some unwritten rule forcing pharmacists to take on new students even when they are overworked with their daily duties?
3. Is certain language being used by managers to justify the need to "mentor" these students: The "Oath of a Pharmacist," "professionalism and behavior issues" listed on employer and preceptor evaluations, goals to "advance the profession," etcetera?
4. Does this context involved in questions 1-3 apply to other fields of pharmacy other than retail, independent, MTM, contract, or per-diem work?

I am seeking a true answer from experienced pharmacists who have encountered these situations and who dealt with them professionally.

1. Yes you can elect to NOT have students because you don't want to precept. I know a old timer pharmacist who said he will not take students because he can not sit by and lie to them, knowing they don't have a future. He is sad at what is going on and how schools are taking advantage of minority students, He said he feels so bad for us and he was not even aware of the loan that we are currently carrying. When he learned of it, he thought I was joking and he was so upset for those of us from poor communities who were just trying to better our lives. BUT he is a hospital pharmacist.

The downside in the retail setting is the store cuts down your tech hours. I know techs that only get 20 hours a week and still the store wants to cut down more hours. This means the pharmacist closes and opens the store alone if they elect to not abuse students as free labor. However, this is their job and NOT our job. If they need help, they need to hire techs, not abuse students.

2. Yes, the preceptor's handbook for pharmacist explicitly states to NOT abuse students and make them count all day, but no one gives a crap anymore. I have only met 2 preceptors who would let students leave early, but that was only because they knew it was on them and they actually read the handbook. The school doesn't give a care. They say that if you don't listen, you will be failed by your preceptor. If you doubt me, you can call Pacific's program and ask.

3. No. The store manager said to cut the tech hours, then said to position students to overlay the tech's hours so that they can learn to count and be trained a little by the tech. Pharmacists are able to take 2 interns, so the store manager was pushing this hard. Morning and night. My preceptor even came back and told me straight up how angry she was that the store manager would tell her to do this. She was a great preceptor of mine as she never abused me. When the tech would push all their work to me, she would tell me to go home and study (she also told me to NEVER be free labor to anyone).

4. Hospital outpatient. They make students count all day. As long as the place hires techs, they will abuse the hell out of students. It is rare to met a retail/outpatient preceptor who will not abuse students to met their metrics.

FYI: I have even had techs get angry and throw tantrums when my preceptors would let me leave 30 mins early, as if I was being paid to count for them. This is some of the dumbest crap. Don't do pharmacy, it is a god damn scam.
 
The educational part is looking like a scam, the business end is simply not making profit EASILY enough now and is on the precipice of failure at all times.....so they burn out and cut the staff to shreds....it's all a ploy to get in the newer generation of pharmacists for lower wages.... or re-hire the older ones who quit on good terms to change companies. Either way the pay rates are dropping.
 
The educational part is looking like a scam, the business end is simply not making profit EASILY enough now and is on the precipice of failure at all times.....so they burn out and cut the staff to shreds....it's all a ploy to get in the newer generation of pharmacists for lower wages.... or re-hire the older ones who quit on good terms to change companies. Either way the pay rates are dropping.

Walmart lead the way. Fired the old vets and told them to reapply. You know that these losers will reapply. They can't go anywhere else. Easy money when you have slaves.
 
Walmart lead the way. Fired the old vets and told them to reapply. You know that these losers will reapply. They can't go anywhere else. Easy money when you have slaves.

Yeah, WM is like a cult following, but so is pharmacy in general.....time to be brave and do something else. you never get quality of life back, you just get older after spending your good, healthy years grinding pharmacy for some money? you cant even win today, it's just a matter of time for all of us.....a total setup. The companies have NO intentions of investing in the talent and longevity of their pharmacists.... that is blatantly obvious!
 
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did interns not helping out with filling and other tech duties think they will ever get hired by that retail establishment? retail pharmacists don't get to say that they won't help out with tech duties and cashiering.

just be careful with your rotations. if you want to get hired in the future you have to go above and beyond what is expected.

Pretty sure the hiring DM will find out from the preceptors who they prefer and who they don't.
 
Just putting it out there... when I was an intern, if they asked me to scrub a toilet I would ask Comet or Scrubbing Bubbles?

I would literally do anything to make an impression. I suppose I still do that in many respects.

I made a lot of very good contacts by making it known that I know how to get a job done, no matter how big or how small. And when I scrub a toilet, I get all the nooks and crannies.
 
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Pretty sure the hiring DM will find out from the preceptors who they prefer and who they don't.
Pharmacy is a small world and people talk. And there are few things people like to bitch about more than co-workers who aren't pulling their weight. Or who are perceived as such. Just saying.
 
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That escalated quickly.
 
You are clearly out of touch or haven't step into the pharmacy world yet. Students aren't choosing to "not help out", they are being made to stand there and fill all day for 40 hours a week. Students are filling and counting for 40 hours a week while learning nothing while paying $1000/wks worth of tuition. I know a preceptor who called in a student to do INVENTORY count on a Saturday...the student counted for 10 hours. What the hell did the student learn? To count by 5s? You think it takes mad skills to count by 5s?

Who is hiring? I know a ***** named David N. who called himself a super tech. This dude ran around all day during his rotations and acted like he was all gun-ho and did anything that was asked of him. He even stayed after hours without anyone asking. Talk about suck up. In the end...no retail store hired him. NO ONE HIRED HIM. It took a crap part time job at a pharmacy that is already closing to hire him. That pharmacy hired two new grads, one as a PIC and David as a floater pharmacist. It is now closed because the store screwed the old experienced pharmacists who all quit, so the store hired two new suckers who knew nothing about how to even order C2s.

You should tell us which retail stores are still giving hiring power to the pharmacists. Every good and honest preceptor I know, says they have no say in who gets hired. They can only put in a good word for you, but if no one is hiring, no one is hiring. Stop spreading your misinformation about treating rotations like interviews, they aren't. You might be one of that preceptors that abuse students as free labor, but no student deserves to be a slave to anyone. They aren't learning anything filling and helping you met your metrics.

"Go lick that toilet bowel clean for the SMALL chance at a per diem job."



Yeah, pharmacists talk about how they can't find jobs at the moment and how many students they can abuse to count and fill all day. Just saying. Any pharmacist that makes a student count and fill all day is a pharmacist I would more than likely slap.



EDIT: I guess we know the other in this thread who believe in licking bowels clean. :rofl:

I did not read your post. However I think your giving me a hard time. I am guessing jealousy is the issue here.

Or - maybe I just think I’m the center of the universe...
 
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Walmart lead the way. Fired the old vets and told them to reapply. You know that these losers will reapply. They can't go anywhere else. Easy money when you have slaves.

They wont hire them back, we fired mainly the people who were thought to be under-performing.
 
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It's not good. At least 60% of my graduating class in a state with only 2 schools still haven't found full time employment
[/QUOTE]

Do these graduates even have their state pharmacist license or registration yet? Pharmacy school graduates need a license in their state before they can practice pharmacy. I thought that would be obvious to people on this forum.

Realistically, it can take anywhere from 3 months to 2 years after graduation for a pharmacist to obtain their license to practice pharmacy after graduation. Review LinkedIn profiles of pharmacists if you do not believe it. I personally know two individuals that earned their license 9 months and 1.5 years after graduation respectively.

"SERIOUSLY?" "Yes!"

One of these graduates is on YouTube with his own channel from the USF Taneja College of Pharmacy (Class of 2017): male. It took him FIVE TRIES to pass the Florida Multistate Jurisprudence Exam (MPJE). You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam.

Things have changed greatly in this market. It is not surprising for people to not have a full-time job months after graduation.
 
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People taking years to get licensed aren't people who anyone wants to hire before literally anyone else.
 
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There are only four reasons for someone not to get their pharmacist license within 3-4 months after graduation: they are in a state that takes forever and/or has very few dates for their state-specific tests (such as New York compounding exam), they are in a position that does not require a license (such as pharmaceutical industry), they had a serious medical issue that prevented them from taking their exams sooner, or there is something very wrong with them (especially if someone took more than one attempt to pass NAPLEX, either they are dumb as a brick or a speshul snowflake with zero ability to withstand stress).
 
Yeap, but I have seen these same preceptors call and b!tch at the school and threaten to FAIL the student. These crap preceptors see students as free labor. I even heard grocery store managers tell my preceptors to take on more students and CUT tech hours. No BS. Preceptors are a joke. Pharmacist are so over worked, they don't have time to teach anything, they just want extra hands to fill and met metrics. The **** part is that the school allow the abuse because they want the students to get their hours and they want the tuition money.

I had a preceptor threaten to fail me if I didn't get shocked by the transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) unit in the ICU. I refused and then she gave me a 70% later. Anyone know if that is illegal? Forcing someone to get shocked by an electrical shock device to pass an APPE rotation?
 
It's not good. At least 60% of my graduating class in a state with only 2 schools still haven't found full time employment

Do these graduates even have their state pharmacist license or registration yet? Pharmacy school graduates need a license in their state before they can practice pharmacy. I thought that would be obvious to people on this forum.

Realistically, it can take anywhere from 3 months to 2 years after graduation for a pharmacist to obtain their license to practice pharmacy after graduation. Review LinkedIn profiles of pharmacists if you do not believe it. I personally know two individuals that earned their license 9 months and 1.5 years after graduation respectively.

"SERIOUSLY?" "Yes!"

One of these graduates is on YouTube with his own channel from the USF Taneja College of Pharmacy (Class of 2017): male. It took him FIVE TRIES to pass the Florida Multistate Jurisprudence Exam (MPJE). You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam.

Things have changed greatly in this market. It is not surprising for people to not have a full-time job months after graduation.
[/QUOTE]

"You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam. "

Yeah but there are 49 other states you can try in if you fail the MPJE in FL. The bigger deal is failing the NAPLX 5 times.
 
You are clearly out of touch or haven't step into the pharmacy world yet. Students aren't choosing to "not help out", they are being made to stand there and fill all day for 40 hours a week. Students are filling and counting for 40 hours a week while learning nothing while paying $1000/wks worth of tuition. I know a preceptor who called in a student to do INVENTORY count on a Saturday...the student counted for 10 hours. What the hell did the student learn? To count by 5s? You think it takes mad skills to count by 5s?

Who is hiring? I know a ***** named David N. who called himself a super tech. This dude ran around all day during his rotations and acted like he was all gun-ho and did anything that was asked of him. He even stayed after hours without anyone asking. Talk about suck up. In the end...no retail store hired him. NO ONE HIRED HIM. It took a crap part time job at a pharmacy that is already closing to hire him. That pharmacy hired two new grads, one as a PIC and David as a floater pharmacist. It is now closed because the store screwed the old experienced pharmacists who all quit, so the store hired two new suckers who knew nothing about how to even order C2s.

You should tell us which retail stores are still giving hiring power to the pharmacists. Every good and honest preceptor I know, says they have no say in who gets hired. They can only put in a good word for you, but if no one is hiring, no one is hiring. Stop spreading your misinformation about treating rotations like interviews, they aren't. You might be one of that preceptors that abuse students as free labor, but no student deserves to be a slave to anyone. They aren't learning anything filling and helping you met your metrics.

"Go lick that toilet bowel clean for the SMALL chance at a per diem job."



Yeah, pharmacists talk about how they can't find jobs at the moment and how many students they can abuse to count and fill all day. Just saying. Any pharmacist that makes a student count and fill all day is a pharmacist I would more than likely slap.



EDIT: I guess we know the other in this thread who believe in licking bowels clean. :rofl:

""Go lick that toilet bowel clean for the SMALL chance at a per diem job." "

What am i reading?
 
There is NO BETTER TIME in the history of healthcare than right now to become a pharmacist. But, hold on, if you think your career is safe without thinking outside the box of the "standard roles" of pharmacists, think again.
  • Community
  • LTC Senior Care
  • Health System / Hospital
  • Compounding
  • Specialty
These are the 5 standard pharmacy sectors. Do not limit your career path to these 5. What about Medical Science Liaison? What about automation technology? How about consultant pharmacy? Software development? Pharmacogenomics specialist?

Listen to these podcasts.

View attachment 293855
https://omny.fm/shows/pharmacy-podcast-network/playlists/the-nontraditional-pharmacy-podcast

You'll thank us later.
We are your biggest fan. Keep in touch.

And remember, Pharmacists are the HUB of Healthcare!!

April fools is a long time away. Lol
 
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Do these graduates even have their state pharmacist license or registration yet? Pharmacy school graduates need a license in their state before they can practice pharmacy. I thought that would be obvious to people on this forum.

Realistically, it can take anywhere from 3 months to 2 years after graduation for a pharmacist to obtain their license to practice pharmacy after graduation. Review LinkedIn profiles of pharmacists if you do not believe it. I personally know two individuals that earned their license 9 months and 1.5 years after graduation respectively.

"SERIOUSLY?" "Yes!"

One of these graduates is on YouTube with his own channel from the USF Taneja College of Pharmacy (Class of 2017): male. It took him FIVE TRIES to pass the Florida Multistate Jurisprudence Exam (MPJE). You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam.

Things have changed greatly in this market. It is not surprising for people to not have a full-time job months after graduation.

"You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam. "

Yeah but there are 49 other states you can try in if you fail the MPJE in FL. The bigger deal is failing the NAPLX 5 times.
[/QUOTE]

As far as the NAPLEX is concerned, I will not argue with you with that point because you are right. The NAPLEX is the basic standard: don't bother practicing if you do not pass (same with the MPJE and/or compounding exam, the latter required for New York State, but those are other matters entirely). The Lord of the Rings meme is of little consequence at that point: "You [pause] Shall Not [pause] (Practice)!." Pharmacist veterans on this forum will make posts and laugh (on the inside); they frequently do.

However, if the applicant cannot afford to relocate financially, then FL (or the state the candidate lives in) is the only state that license candidate can afford to apply to. There is also a a 3-year limit to maintain the NAPLEX score and score transfer time limits as well (cough 90 days for example cough). If the deadline is not complete within that time, then said candidate will have to retake the NAPLEX and relearn the new practice guidelines (BUMMER!). The total cost, naturally, will be greater than when said candidate was in school.

The National Association of Board of Pharmacy (NABP) has up-to-date information regarding the NAPLEX fees. They change...they do change.

Constructive criticism: You also did not spell NAPLEX correctly. :)
 
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To answer the Original Poster's question about why we are not using our power "better" as pharmacists, not as forum users and posters:

1. Many of the pharmacists that are helping students are still pursuing their residency training and not helping their non-residency-trained colleagues. Colleagues refers to pharmacy school graduates who do not have a residency or a fellowship. I encountered this many times among my own peers and even some faculty. The rally cry was: "Where are my PGY2s at?," not "How can we help everyone else that is not residency trained get to our level?" or "How can we provide quality patient care together?" Residency-trained pharmacists are not only refusing to get everyone else up to speed, but they are asking the wrong questions. The wording was changed to: "PGY2s. Where you at?" a few weeks later; the rally cry conveyed the same message as before but with different wording. The purpose: to keep the teams together and to encourage buy-in.

2. Pharmacy is in its own silos, which are traditionally called cliques (like high school, only on a professional level): academia, managed care, research, PGY1 and PGY2, retail, independent, clinical, staff, industry fellows, business owners, and the list goes on. Due to this lack of collaboration and lack of buy-in to specific causes, it is very difficult for pharmacists of all specialties to come together for legislative efforts. Such meetings only occur on Legislative Days and other political gatherings. The motivations among pharmacists in top organizational leadership are inconsistent; like politics, everyone has their own agenda. It's hard to get everyone on the same page. Only five pharmacy "Rockstars" are promoted while the rest are CEOs of companies; what about the other 15,000 graduates every year and the other 300,000 pharmacists according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics?

3. Once students graduate from pharmacy school and are accepted into a residency, the emotional restraints are removed. Many of them have an elitist attitude and can refuse to train their colleagues under a vague concept of "professionalism." Such continual rejection and neglect makes the rest of us registered pharmacists not want to "help" much less generate our "why" for being pharmacists. I spoke with a variety of pharmacy directors as well as those I worked with. The consensus was one fact: residency alone is not experience, but training under a licensed pharmacist. The resident still has not been a pharmacist yet because their interventions are observed by a preceptor. To the best of my knowledge, residency is like PharmD rotations all over again, only with more patients. The stakes are higher than as a student, you are paid very little compared to practicing pharmacists, and you must have your license in that state (pass the NAPLEX, MPJE, and meet other requirements to stay licensed which includes some CE credits).

4. Student loans are much higher than before, forcing us to accept jobs we cannot use our PharmD for or jobs that pay less than what we are worth. We need to take care of ourselves before we take care of others. That is how society views progress and how the outside world views mental health. The pharmacist view conflicts with this, saying we must serve no matter what even if it is for no pay. Financial and personal issues lead to burnout and eventually apathy. Florida is the only state, according to an ABC iTeam investigation, that enforces the student loan law. If you are in default of your student loans, you cannot practice. Solution: see if the Board of Pharmacy will change your jurisdiction (if possible). You may have to take the NAPLEX again and pay the associated fees.

Source: Florida Board of Health suspends health care licenses over student loan defaults January 19, 2019.

Some states, as you read the article, repealed the laws already. Florida is not one of them.

5. Each person and pharmacist has their own cause to support. Importance of those causes is relative to whatever the agenda is, not what needs to be done.

6. When we bring up these issues involving patient care, the first thing the Boards of Pharmacy and other pharmacists review is our own personal and professional profile, not the issue we discuss. This goes for pharmacists in practice and those that are elitist. In such scenarios, judgment is easy to pass but difficult to restrain.

7. We are not using our power because no one hears us. Lobbyists from the American Medical Association (AMA) have much more power than pharmacists, especially in FL. The current Florida Society of Health Systems Pharmacists (FSHP) chapter has trouble with this.

8. Pharmacists choose alternative careers once their loans are paid off, regardless of the training they receive. I spoke about this information in previous posts (PharmD to PA, PharmD to physician, and Pharmacist to Dentist). The thought is this: they paid their dues: they are done (or they lost enjoyment in the field for whatever the reason). However, removing themselves from the field is reframed as follows: "I am grateful to be starting a new journey..."

9. Quantitative objectives are hardly considered in pharmacy as a measure of success in anything other than educational and job placement outcomes (ACPE). Furthermore, pharmacy cannot agree on what the appropriate system of quality measures is, so we default to the measure our employer has for us. This is what we refer to as the "metrics."

10. Lack of measures of certainty by schools, national pharmacy professional organizations, and increased morale boosting for only residency-trained pharmacists and not for pharmacists that have neither a fellowship nor a residency. Residency-trained pharmacists are the only ones that can provide quality patient care and do not want to train the rest of us (unless of course we are students). Selfish behavior, but it is true.

11. The majority of pharmacists that practice are in retail pharmacy. Those pharmacists, especially with the 2019 WalMart layoffs, are not treated well as employees. Even the statement "treated well" is an understatement given the work conditions. Not every PharmD candidate or pharmacist is cut out for entrepreneurship; also, not every pharmacist wants to be an independent contractor for life.

If you view all of these factors, it is not surprising how easy pessimism becomes or how slow pharmacy progress is.

To sum it up: pharmacy as a profession has poor leadership compared with other health professions. The American Pharmacists Association (APhA) is one of many organizations that fails to deliver.
Your point about Residency trained pharmacists is true. And if you are a poor student, good luck. Many of the resident trained pharmacists are even hesitant to help.
Contrast that with nursing and medicine.
With medicine and you are in a MD school, even if you are in the bottom of the pack once starting clerkships or failed the boards etc. The medical school provides you resources like taking gap years to boost resume and allows you to take the Step exam again. I have a friend who wants to do orthopedics and he failed Step2. The school is helping get into orthopedics. Nursing is the same way. The school helps the bottom of the pack students get somewhere.
 
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I am starting to wonder if any of these pharmacists on this website actually knows anyone who is struggling to find a job or have experienced a pay cut.

Actually, does any pharmacy students or graduates know of anyone who is struggling?
I am a recent grad of 2019. The job saturation is real. The only job offers I have gotten are non-pharmacy jobs. One was to become a medical scribe in a hospital, a commissioned insurance agent for Alfa was the other job offer and my third job offer was to become a Shipping inspector. Job saturation is real.
 
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I am a recent grad of 2019. The job saturation is real. The only job offers I have gotten are non-pharmacy jobs. One was to become a medical scribe in a hospital, a commissioned insurance agent for Alfa was the other job offer and my third job offer was to become a Shipping inspector. Job saturation is real.


I am just curious - what is the salary of these other options?
 
I am a recent grad of 2019. The job saturation is real. The only job offers I have gotten are non-pharmacy jobs. One was to become a medical scribe in a hospital, a commissioned insurance agent for Alfa was the other job offer and my third job offer was to become a Shipping inspector. Job saturation is real.

I'm graduating in May and start to accept the reality. I'm looking for non-pharmacist jobs too.
 
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I am just curious - what is the salary of these other options?
Shipping inspector- 38,000/yr. Medical scribe $12/hr. And Alfa is based on how many insurance plans you sell. No set salary. It’s a commission type of job
 
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Shipping inspector- 38,000/yr. Medical scribe $12/hr. And Alfa is based on how many insurance plans you sell. No set salary. It’s a commission type of job

The shipping inspector sounds legit.
 
You are clearly out of touch or haven't step into the pharmacy world yet. Students aren't choosing to "not help out", they are being made to stand there and fill all day for 40 hours a week. Students are filling and counting for 40 hours a week while learning nothing while paying $1000/wks worth of tuition. I know a preceptor who called in a student to do INVENTORY count on a Saturday...the student counted for 10 hours. What the hell did the student learn? To count by 5s? You think it takes mad skills to count by 5s?

Who is hiring? I know a ***** named David N. who called himself a super tech. This dude ran around all day during his rotations and acted like he was all gun-ho and did anything that was asked of him. He even stayed after hours without anyone asking. Talk about suck up. In the end...no retail store hired him. NO ONE HIRED HIM. It took a crap part time job at a pharmacy that is already closing to hire him. That pharmacy hired two new grads, one as a PIC and David as a floater pharmacist. It is now closed because the store screwed the old experienced pharmacists who all quit, so the store hired two new suckers who knew nothing about how to even order C2s.

You should tell us which retail stores are still giving hiring power to the pharmacists. Every good and honest preceptor I know, says they have no say in who gets hired. They can only put in a good word for you, but if no one is hiring, no one is hiring. Stop spreading your misinformation about treating rotations like interviews, they aren't. You might be one of that preceptors that abuse students as free labor, but no student deserves to be a slave to anyone. They aren't learning anything filling and helping you met your metrics.

"Go lick that toilet bowel clean for the SMALL chance at a per diem job."



Yeah, pharmacists talk about how they can't find jobs at the moment and how many students they can abuse to count and fill all day. Just saying. Any pharmacist that makes a student count and fill all day is a pharmacist I would more than likely slap.



EDIT: I guess we know the other in this thread who believe in licking bowels clean. :rofl:
What about the Clinical rotations? What are your thoughts on those rotations
 
Or don't take the advice and be the first to discover a way to let your "passion" pay the bills....LOL
 
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Or don't take the advice and be the first to discover a way to let your "passion" pay the bills....LOL

Those who are passionate about the arts, teaching, acting, etc. go through great lengths to pursue what they care about. They even work all sorts of odd end jobs unrelated to their passions just so they can make ends meet. Teachers often spend their personal income on school supplies for their students.

Yet here we have pre-pharms who think that a six-figure (now five figures) retail position is beneath them. Moving outside of SoCal or NYC is beneath them. They’re only passionate about pharmacy as long as they can land a unicorn 9-5 job in their city of choice.
 
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What about the Clinical rotations? What are your thoughts on those rotations

Preceptors making students do their extra work. Super repetitive tasks over and over and over again so that the preceptor doesn't have to do it themselves.
How many times does a student need to perform an INR test on a patient before you can call it a pointless rotation?

How many times does a student need to bake a cake, before you can call it salve labor? Do you give them a different batter and act like they are actually learning? Actually, the messed up part is that students are paying $1,000/week to bake the cakes for free.

Wouldn't it be better to allow them to go home and actually study something else?
 
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Students would be better off studying RXPrep for a couple months than all the BS in pharmacy school.
 
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Those who are passionate about the arts, teaching, acting, etc. go through great lengths to pursue what they care about. They even work all sorts of odd end jobs unrelated to their passions just so they can make ends meet. Teachers often spend their personal income on school supplies for their students.

Yet here we have pre-pharms who think that a six-figure (now five figures) retail position is beneath them. Moving outside of SoCal or NYC is beneath them. They’re only passionate about pharmacy as long as they can land a unicorn 9-5 job in their city of choice.

I didn't know that teachers were $200,000+ in debt like the recent pharmacy grads are. I think these recent grads need more passion, that'll help to pay off the interest.
 
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Or their passion will shield them from the pain of essentially being an indentured servant for life. Every time I read this thread title, I imagine it says "Yes- We Chose Pharmacy....DOH!" with the ""DOH" spoken in the voice of Homer Simpson.....
 
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Don't worry, Bernie or Warren will cancel all student loans then pharmacy students will have nothing to worry about.
 
Don't worry, Bernie or Warren will cancel all student loans then pharmacy students will have nothing to worry about.
It`s not the money prepharms need to worry about but the time and effort wasted. Honestly speaking many of them won`t feel like starting over after spending 6 years in intense school even if they have no monthly payment.

I don`t think these prepharms will ever understand the desperation of having no job after graduation. Saying that they will learn it the hard way is putting it mildly.
 
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PBMs are crooked. They are destroying pharmacy as we know it. They are the reason independents are going out of business one after the other. If you want to stand up and be a steward for the profession, I recommend you boycott working for such an evil institution.
PBMs are certainly not helping with drug costs, which was their original purpose.
 
Yeap, but I have seen these same preceptors call and b!tch at the school and threaten to FAIL the student. These crap preceptors see students as free labor. I even heard grocery store managers tell my preceptors to take on more students and CUT tech hours. No BS. Preceptors are a joke. Pharmacist are so over worked, they don't have time to teach anything, they just want extra hands to fill and met metrics. The **** part is that the school allow the abuse because they want the students to get their hours and they want the tuition money.
And preceptors are not compensated for taking in a student. And they should be paid, otherwise preceptors might as well drop out, especially the older/experienced pharmacists
 
Problem with that is the prisoner’s dilemna— game theory alone means that someone is going to mess it up for everyone. In this case, don’t like your $42/hr pay? Fine, there are 14,999 other new grads who are desperate for a job and will take it in a heartbeat. Get all 15,000 new grads to band together somehow? No problem, the 5,000+ foreign grads will take that offer.
Well, if Trump gets relected, he will make it difficult for companies to hire foreign grads. Not that it matters for pharmacy. Secondly, I agree you are replaceable as a pharmacist.
 
BACKGROUND: Student is a grocery chain retail APPE site. Student has been filling since 9 am.

Student says: "Would it be ok if I take a 15 minute break?"
Preceptor says: "I don't get a break, so why do you get a break?"

Student says: "I am starving, I was just wondering if I could eat my granola bar since I know some retail sites don't allow eating in the store."
Preceptor says: "You are hungry? Didn't we already have lunch earlier? Did you eat?"

Student says: "Yeah, but that was 6 hours ago. I have a fast metabolism. I am really hungry and have been shaking. Is it ok if I just take 5 mins to eat one of my snack in my bag? I won't be gone long. It'll be like I am just going to the restroom."
Preceptor says: "OK, you can take a few minutes. Hurry back."



I can't wait to hear someone try to defend this type of behavior and think preceptors are saviors who should be paid to have students count for 240 hours.

A sycophant DM might want free labor to justify keeping payroll down. As a PIC I want nothing to do with students who won't know the system, probably won't even know how to count by 5 and can't interact with the public. They're a liability. There is nothing to pay forward. Put a fork in it. Retail pharmacy is done.

And schools DGAF. Northstate is putting people in retail sites for "am care" APPE rotations. What a joke. I flat out refused after last year I DGAF.
 
"You only have five tries in your lifetime in the Florida state jurisdiction to pass the MPJE exam. "

Yeah but there are 49 other states you can try in if you fail the MPJE in FL. The bigger deal is failing the NAPLX 5 times.

As far as the NAPLEX is concerned, I will not argue with you with that point because you are right. The NAPLEX is the basic standard: don't bother practicing if you do not pass (same with the MPJE and/or compounding exam, the latter required for New York State, but those are other matters entirely). The Lord of the Rings meme is of little consequence at that point: "You [pause] Shall Not [pause] (Practice)!." Pharmacist veterans on this forum will make posts and laugh (on the inside); they frequently do.

However, if the applicant cannot afford to relocate financially, then FL (or the state the candidate lives in) is the only state that license candidate can afford to apply to. There is also a a 3-year limit to maintain the NAPLEX score and score transfer time limits as well (cough 90 days for example cough). If the deadline is not complete within that time, then said candidate will have to retake the NAPLEX and relearn the new practice guidelines (BUMMER!). The total cost, naturally, will be greater than when said candidate was in school.

The National Association of Board of Pharmacy (NABP) has up-to-date information regarding the NAPLEX fees. They change...they do change.

Constructive criticism: You also did not spell NAPLEX correctly. :)
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that lord of the rings meme is pretty funny. I think i'm going to make one in photoshop of it. thank you for the laugh. Thank you for the spelling correction. I agree some situations are less than ideal.
 
PBMs are certainly not helping with drug costs, which was their original purpose.
There are several law suits in different states against PBMs going on simultaneously. Majorities are being voted to go against PBM dominant health care and there will be laws to put in place to monitor PBM activities. It may take a few years for everyone else to catch on but i suspect in less than 5 years we will see a drastic change in reimbursements and clawbacks.
 
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There are several law suits in different states against PBMs going on simultaneously. Majorities are being voted to go against PBM dominant health care and there will be laws to put in place to monitor PBM activities. It may take a few years for everyone else to catch on but i suspect in less than 5 years we will see a drastic change in reimbursements and clawbacks.
A bit of semantics here but "DIR fees" are associated with PBMs and "clawbacks" are associated with state Medicaid programs, though people use these terms very loosely since the concept is more or less the same. Point being, even if you got rid of PBMs, state Medicaid is reimbursing pharmacies poorly as well so it's not going to fix the profitability problem. The larger problem is drug pricing and the greed of pharmaceutical companies but PBMs get most of the blame because retail pharmacists interact with insurance companies a lot more than drug companies.
 
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