Yes, we chose Pharmacy

[TerryTerry]

If your dad is the pharmacy supervisor of Walgreens or CVS or if your dad is a hospital administrator, then you can still apply to pharmacy school.

Being a pharmacist is still a legit career choice for selected few people.

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[PharmtoCS]

Being a pharmacist is still a legit career choice for selected few people.

Problem is that everyone thinks they’re the select few ones even if in reality they have only done the bare minimum.

They’ve been rewarded for just up showing via participation trophies, college degrees, and now pharmacy school acceptances. Why can’t they just use the same approach to land their dream job in their saturated city without a residency?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

If your dad is the pharmacy supervisor of Walgreens or CVS or if your dad is a hospital administrator, then you can still apply to pharmacy school.

Even being a pharmacy supervisor of a retail chain isn’t safe anymore as middle management is getting slashed like nobody’s business. I would say you’d need to be related to a corporate retail VP to be truly safe.

 

[mentos]

I hate to pile on the gloom and doom, but the market is pretty bad and it's only going to get worse. I have several years hospital experience, BC-ADM, and BCPS and it took me two years of applying to find a job on the east coast back home. I can't imagine for current students how it's going to be in two to four years.

There are a couple scenarios where I think students can still apply to pharmacy school.
1. If you are graduating with no loans (GI Bill or HPSP or IHS scholarship).
2. You have no family and are willing and able to move anywhere in the country

All true, but I wish people would stop calling it doom and gloom. It should be called facts and reality.

Being a pharmacist is still a legit career choice for selected few people.

I mean, getting a psych degree is legit for a select few too.

 

[Lubeckd]

200 stores closed today

 

[Pharmcats71]

200 stores closed today

I'm curious to see how the prepharmers and pharm students spin this one. Walgreens and Walmart laying off pharmacists this year.

 

[mentos]

200 stores closed today

This post does not belong here, it should be moved the hidden forum. No doom and gloom allowed!

 

[Beacon]

Friend high up at WBA is expecting many more closures through 2020.

 

[PSOP Student]

Regional manager of a chain I will not mention out of respect told me hours and salary will be cut across the board in 1 year's time. The landscape is going to change for the worse and to prepare for it.

No spinning this **** like OP does to boost her CV.

 

[BC_89]

This post does not belong here, it should be moved in the hidden forum.

Don't play hide and seek with your kids...you might get lost

Problem is that everyone thinks they’re the select few ones even if in reality they have only done the bare minimum.

Compared to what I've seen throughout the states, the few is really fewer....We are a dying breed

Even being a pharmacy supervisor of a retail chain isn’t safe anymore as middle management is getting slashed like nobody’s business. I would say you’d need to be related to a corporate retail VP to be truly safe.

Save and Invest over the next 5 years and live 40% beneath your means and you'll be fine. Or pay your loans off early that you decided to borrow and be a teacher with paid summers and a pension plan

I'm curious to see how the prepharmers and pharm students spin this one. Walgreens and Walmart laying off pharmacists this year.

Graduate with no debt (and invest money while in school). Live beneath your means and enjoy part time work and invest in your hobbies. Bad side I work part time and take the kids out hunting and fishing more. Best case scenario work full time for 5-8 years and fully retire with my savings and investments

I think I quoted the topics I've missed the past few days.... Time to catch some Netflix..... Carry on!

 

[AM77]

I left teaching 12 years ago because the job market was so bad.

 

[mentos]

I left teaching 12 years ago because the job market was so bad.

The job market for pharmacy school professors seems good. New jobs every year!

 

[PharmtoCS]

Pre-pharmacy

Pharmacist: Don't go into pharmacy.

Student: But pharmacy is my dream!

Pharmacist: Ok, fine. Make sure you choose the cheapest school. Borrow as little as possible. Work while you're in school.

Student: But I want to stay in Southern California! I will apply for hospital jobs.

P2

Student: I just completed my community IPPE. I hate retail!

Pharmacist: Better start bolstering that GPA now. You'll need it for residency.

Student: I better quit my internship and focus on grades!

P4

Student: I didn't match with a residency program!

Pharmacist: Beggars can't be choosers. 70% of the jobs are in retail and you've got a lot of loans there to pay off.

New grad with an offer

New grad: Yay! I got an offer!

Pharmacist: For how much per hour, and how many hours do you get?

New grad: $45 an hour. No guarantee of how many hours. My DM told me usually 32, although some people have been getting as little as 8 per week.

Pharmacist: You can move to a less saturated city.

New grad: Who would ever want to live in [insert flyover city]?!

1 year later

Experienced pharmacist: For $45/hour you really shouldn't be putting in 3 hours of unpaid overtime each shift. You're burning yourself out, and you're putting patient safety at risk by cutting corners like that. How do you manage to give all these flu shots?

New grad: But I want to impress my DM with my hard work! I am hoping to get more hours and hopefully a staff position. I have LOANS!

Experienced pharmacist: This is what happens when you don't listen. You choose to go into a saturated field and pick one of the most expensive schools possible without ever having worked in a pharmacy. You realize that you hate retail only after you're halfway done with school so you gun for a residency which you did not land. Most of the jobs are in retail but even though you hate it, you are desperate to get more hours because you are drowning in $200k+ student loans. You try to impress your DM by cutting corners and putting in more unpaid hours but you are only setting a new normal and making it worse for everyone else. We keep trying to give you real world advice but you keep ignoring it and digging yourself into a deeper hole. I wish you the best of luck trying to climb out of that $200k hole when jobs and opportunities are limited.

tl;dr We keep giving advice to students to reduce their student loan burdens and stand up for themselves and the profession but they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper.

Next chapter: Too Much Negativity

5 years later

Old New Grad: I'm so burned out and fed up. I can never get any tech help, and I've already made several serious dispensing errors. I can't keep up with the metrics. I just bought a house and have a newborn. I still have student debt and worry about being fired.

New New Grad: Old New Grad is so darned negative. Old New Grad complains about having to stay over 3 hours each day while earning $45/hour. I can do Old New Grad's job so much better and faster for lower pay. I'm willing to stay over 5 hours each day. I don't get why Old New Gradcomplains so much. I have a lot of loans but I'm willing to take $35/hour. Why can't Old New Grad just retire already or find a new professon if they hate it that much?

District Manager: New New Grad, I like your enthusiasm. You're hired! Your position will pay $35/hour as you requested but I can only get you about 20 hours a week of work. When can you start?

District Manager: Old New Grad, we're sorry but you've made too many mistakes and your metrics are not up to par. We're going to have to fire you.

Old New Grad: I guess what comes around, goes around.

 

[sozetone]

Next chapter: Too Much Negativity

5 years later

Old New Grad: I'm so burned out and fed up. I can never get any tech help, and I've already made several serious dispensing errors. I can't keep up with the metrics. I just bought a house and have a newborn. I still have student debt and worry about being fired.

New New Grad: Old New Grad is so darned negative. Old New Grad complains about having to stay over 3 hours each day while earning $45/hour. I can do Old New Grad's job so much better and faster for lower pay. I'm willing to stay over 5 hours each day. I don't get why Old New Gradcomplains so much. I have a lot of loans but I'm willing to take $35/hour. Why can't Old New Grad just retire already or find a new professon if they hate it that much?

District Manager: New New Grad, I like your enthusiasm. You're hired! Your position will pay $35/hour as you requested but I can only get you about 20 hours a week of work. When can you start?

District Manager: Old New Grad, we're sorry but you've made too many mistakes and your metrics are not up to par. We're going to have to fire you.

Old New Grad: I guess what comes around, goes around.

Within a few years or less, the profession will be so devalued, you wont matter anymore. The landscape of retail "community" pharmacy is changing in a big way. Companies are moving towards DOCTOR related care, like all the health clinics they are testing out in Houston and Georgia....This will all be a bad memory in time....

 

[mentos]

Within a few years or less, the profession will be so devalued, you wont matter anymore. The landscape of retail "community" pharmacy is changing in a big way. Companies are moving towards DOCTOR related care, like all the health clinics they are testing out in Houston and Georgia....This will all be a bad memory in time....

I don't understand why they don't just put a pharmacy in all those urgent cares. Why do to the hospital at all when you can do it all in a one stop shop? Must be cause pharmacy is not profitable enough.

 

[Secret_Informant]

I think we need to band together and no longer take interns.

Do you have a choice in the matter or are you obligated to "train the next generation of pharmacists" by some obscure decree like the Oath of a Pharmacist, a Board of Pharmacy mandate, some peer screaming at you if you choose not to, being fired if you choose not to, or some Pharmacy Times article posted by a residency-trained pharmacist to "take the leap?" The resident, by the way, did not work in practice yet and thinks they know it all when they really know nothing.

I see a resident as someone who trains under a licensed pharmacist's wing until they can practice on their own, basically rotations all over again, only paid 1/3 as less as a practicing pharmacist (maybe less).

 

[Sine Cura]

Actually I have thought this through and I will not longer take APPE interns for bogus non-community rotations. I'd like to see Walmart go after me for this ****.

CNSU is hot garbage taking in so many students and not having enough adequate rotation sites. You have to be out of your mind or have your head in the sand to go to a school like that.

 

[sozetone]

I don't understand why they don't just put a pharmacy in all those urgent cares. Why do to the hospital at all when you can do it all in a one stop shop? Must be cause pharmacy is not profitable enough.

They say they are going to have a pharmacy at each one.... and one for every store, out in the parking lot.....lol. No joke, they said that.....we shall see....

 

[Gombrich12]

Actually I have thought this through and I will not longer take APPE interns for bogus non-community rotations. I'd like to see Walmart go after me for this ****.

CNSU is hot garbage taking in so many students and not having enough adequate rotation sites. You have to be out of your mind or have your head in the sand to go to a school like that.

What kind of bogus rotations can be done at a retail pharmacy?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

What kind of bogus rotations can be done at a retail pharmacy?

Ambulatory care, specialty, pharmacy administration are what comes off the top of my head

 

[zona2016]

What should be the max loan amount a student pharmacist should have for the pharmacy career to be feasible. IE (32 hours a week floating as a standard)? Just food for thought.

 

[allantois]

What should be the max loan amount a student pharmacist should have for the pharmacy career to be feasible. IE (32 hours a week floating as a standard)? Just food for thought.

Zero

 

[Sine Cura]

The kind where you count all day and fill and count and fill and count and fill and count and fill as free labor and then be threaten about not passing your rotation if you don't count and fill like a slave for 40+ hours a week. I never understood how dumb pharmacy is until I asked myself this question:

"How do you require that intern students work more hours (40+ hours) than the pharmacy techs do at the retail sites?"

Techs are only there part time and complaing about not having enough hours, yet the students are there working as free labor for 40+ hours a week.

Spot-on.

It's a complete joke how these schools expect a typical retail pharmacy to provide "am care" experience or "administrative" experience for students but do zero vetting. It's a disservice to the students regardless of whether the students are out of their minds taking out 250-300k in private loans for 4 years

 

[PharmtoCS]

What should be the max loan amount a student pharmacist should have for the pharmacy career to be feasible. IE (32 hours a week floating as a standard)? Just food for thought.

Definitely less than what it costs to get a degree in computer science, engineering, finance, accounting, etc. which pay as well as pharmacy if not better (gross) and offer better job prospects.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Spot-on.

It's a complete joke how these schools expect a typical retail pharmacy to provide "am care" experience or "administrative" experience for students but do zero vetting. It's a disservice to the students regardless of whether the students are out of their minds taking out 250-300k in private loans for 4 years

Schools are already desperate for any rotation site to take their students (especially new schools who are fighting for affiliations), to the point that they are bribing/paying sites to take their students. Imagine how many sites would still be left if there was an actual vetting process that went on. This would cause schools to pay EVEN MORE money to sites in a desperate effort to get their students opportunities over other schools, in which in turn will cause the schools to increase their tuition even further to offset that cost. $100k/year tuition sounds very possible if we went down this route.

Again, we did this to ourselves with the opening up of all these new schools with no enrollment caps.

 

[mentos]

What should be the max loan amount a student pharmacist should have for the pharmacy career to be feasible. IE (32 hours a week floating as a standard)? Just food for thought.

Zero

Agreed. I would not attend pharmacy school in 2019 unless it was free. I might pay $100 or so but I'm taking a huge risk of losing 4 years opportunity cost and of course being unemployed.

 

[sozetone]

Agreed. I would not attend pharmacy school in 2019 unless it was free. I might pay $100 or so but I'm taking a huge risk of losing 4 years opportunity cost and of course being unemployed.

100$ or so.....lol the application fees cost more... thats a good one.

 

[PSOP Student]

100$ or so.....lol the application fees cost more... thats a good one.

Those scam applications are losing so much money right now. I bet they are thinking of ways to try to increase revenue with hidden fees to make up for the drop in applications.

 

[Saiyo]

Those scam applications are losing so much money right now. I bet they are thinking of ways to try to increase revenue with hidden fees to make up for the drop in applications.

My IPPE was a hidden fee! $3600 for two weeks of shadowing!

 

[angelsplight]

The kind where you count all day and fill and count and fill and count and fill and count and fill as free labor and then be threaten about not passing your rotation if you don't count and fill like a slave for 40+ hours a week. I never understood how dumb pharmacy is until I asked myself this question:

"How do you require that intern students work more hours (40+ hours) than the pharmacy techs do at the retail sites?"

Techs are only there part time and complaing about not having enough hours, yet the students are there working as free labor for 40+ hours a week.

This best part about this is that it is actually true. One of the independents I did my APPEs at told me that the only reason they take in APPE students is because the students are considered free full-time labor. There is hardly anything to be trained at in a community setting so they are pretty much just there as free labor. Same goes with my pharm supervisor when I worked at Walgreens. He only took in IPPE students because the pharmacy and front-store shares hours and in the limited amount of hours they have, they are usually backed up so the solution is IPPE students that are treated as techs.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

My IPPE was a hidden fee! $3600 for two weeks of shadowing!

About to become a rotation site. Imma reap the hell of out benefits on these fools. Lol

 

[Dred Pirate]

About to become a rotation site. Imma reap the hell of out benefits on these fools. Lol

I know schools that pay $900 a month to host students - if I owned an independent I would have a student every month - = $10,600 in my pocket and free labor - figure if I replace one teach at $15 an hour = $50,000 to the plus side when you calculate in benefits, etc.

 

[sozetone]

Damn, i gotta cash in on this.... i dont think WM allows it though, not my district/market anyway.....or i would work the heck outta someone every month! lol.... i'll give em an A as long as they hustle. I'm not gonna be a D**K or anything.....but i could use the help.....

 

[rph3664]

Big chain in Texas...looks like we are officially starting new grads at $42 an hour for RPH and $50 for PIC.

Also closest open job to the metroplex is about 70 miles out.

My DM said they posted a 24 HR/week job and had 198 applicants.

Good luck folks.

Every time I stop by here, it makes me all the more grateful that I walked away from the profession in 2012. I didn't leave it, really; it left me.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Every time I stop by here, it makes me all the more grateful that I walked away from the profession in 2012. I didn't leave it, really; it left me.

Not sure how truthful or accurate this is. Im in texas at an independent and we’re still offering $55/hr for a staff pharmacist. Even on indeed, most starting is mid $50s.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I think every one "can use the help". The crappy part is making students COUNT and FILL and acting as if they are actually learning. Honestly, it makes more sense to keep a student for 3 hours and then allowing them to go home and study. No one gets anything from saying in their head:

"5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, and then WE REACH SIXTY!"

Over and over and over again. I saw a P1 at her rotation site at Walgreens...I felt so bad for her. It was obvious she had been counting all day since the morning. She looked like she wanted to cry, she couldn't even crack a smile.

The problem is that real pharmacists don’t even do anything clinical in the retail setting, so even if they wanted to give students “learning opportunities” they couldn’t because they themselves don’t do anything that requires specialized knowledge. The best you can do to help a student learn in the retail setting is to either stick them at the consultation window or debrief on a patient once you get an interesting prescription/case. You aren’t going to make them prepare a topic discussion or do a research project because that is just not how retail works. So at the end of the day, that is why you make your students fill prescriptions all day. Blame the profession, not the preceptor.

 

[mentos]

The problem is that real pharmacists don’t even do anything clinical in the retail setting, so even if they wanted to give students “learning opportunities” they couldn’t because they themselves don’t do anything that requires specialized knowledge. The best you can do to help a student learn in the retail setting is to either stick them at the consultation window or debrief on a patient once you get an interesting prescription/case. You aren’t going to make them prepare a topic discussion or do a research project because that is just not how retail works. So at the end of the day, that is why you make your students fill prescriptions all day. Blame the profession, not the preceptor.

My retail preceptor had me create a diabetes pamphlet for one of her upcoming clinics. That was a nice break from counting.

 

[DagS132]

Over and over and over again. I saw a P1 at her rotation site at Walgreens...I felt so bad for her. It was obvious she had been counting all day since the morning. She looked like she wanted to cry, she couldn't even crack a smile.

Why would anyone get upset over just counting the whole day? I would rather do that than getting yelled at all day by customers.

 

[BC_89]

Why would anyone get upset over just counting the whole day? I would rather do that than getting yelled at all day by customers.

It's better to deal with the customers early on and practice being the "go to" check-point pharmacist than to be dumped in a firepit with the only experience as an intern being the same level as that of a tech.

 

[Saiyo]

Yeah we are all on here doom and glooming. But it seems to be business as usual outside which may be why all the prepharms don't believe us.

Anyone hear about how the job market Is from real new grads?

 

[rxkrafted]

Yeah we are all on here doom and glooming. But it seems to be business as usual outside which may be why all the prepharms don't believe us.

Anyone hear about how the job market Is from real new grads?

Yeah I have several friends who graduated this year. Some of them asked me if I can hook them up with jobs because they couldn't land residency and no luck getting an interview from applying. From one of my friends who did get a job (transitioned from being an intern), he says that many of his fellow interns with the same company were not offered any positions because they had none available.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Yeah we are all on here doom and glooming. But it seems to be business as usual outside which may be why all the prepharms don't believe us.

Anyone hear about how the job market Is from real new grads?

we recently hired several PGY-2 graduates - I asked them each this specific question- none of them had a connection to my particular area - they all did a shotgun approach and applied from coast to coast. They each said they got very few interviews and each had one or two other offers. I live in a relatively highly desired area with two colleges of pharmacy within an hour- so we definitely got to choose from the "top of the barrel". So to take this info - three highly qualified PGY-2's had to apply from coast to coast in order to get a position - if you are not a top canddiate and not willing to relocate - you are going to have issues finding a job.

 

[JustFillIt]

we recently hired several PGY-2 graduates - I asked them each this specific question- none of them had a connection to my particular area - they all did a shotgun approach and applied from coast to coast. They each said they got very few interviews and each had one or two other offers. I live in a relatively highly desired area with two colleges of pharmacy within an hour- so we definitely got to choose from the "top of the barrel". So to take this info - three highly qualified PGY-2's had to apply from coast to coast in order to get a position - if you are not a top canddiate and not willing to relocate - you are going to have issues finding a job.

I dunno what all the fuss is about a residency.. I have always been able to find a job wherever I wanted to live, and I have a non-dispensing job that is considered 100% clinical in nature.. Residency was never a question. Quality and the brand that you create for yourself means everything.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I dunno what all the fuss is about a residency.. I have always been able to find a job wherever I wanted to live, and I have a non-dispensing job that is considered 100% clinical in nature.. Residency was never a question. Quality and the brand that you create for yourself means everything.

I agree- I didn't do a residency - (there are a million threads on the value or lack of value of them on this site - so not trying to reshash that) - my point was to answer the question about real life job market - whether or not we think they are important - they do play a role in ability for MOST people to get a job. There are always exceptions to that rule thou

 

[mentos]

Yeah we are all on here doom and glooming. But it seems to be business as usual outside which may be why all the prepharms don't believe us.

Anyone hear about how the job market Is from real new grads?

Just go over to the main pharmacy forum or the hidden forum. Lots of new grads can't find a job. There was a thread about one becoming a pizza delivery driver. Many threads about layoffs and what to do for their next career after the gravy train ends.

 

[Pharmcats71]

Yeah we are all on here doom and glooming. But it seems to be business as usual outside which may be why all the prepharms don't believe us.

Anyone hear about how the job market Is from real new grads?

It's not good. At least 60% of my graduating class in a state with only 2 schools still haven't found full time employment

 

[mentos]

It's not good. At least 60% of my graduating class in a state with only 2 schools still haven't found full time employment

You know there are a ton of pharmacy schools when 2 per state is considered low.

Which state? If it's a small one I'm sure there are many nearby schools in surrounding states.

 

[Pharmcats71]

You know there are a ton of pharmacy schools when 2 per state is considered low.

Which state? If it's a small one I'm sure there are many nearby schools in surrounding states.

Az. New Mexico only has 1 I believe, Utah has a few, California....lol

 

[PSOP Student]

So at the end of the day, that is why you make your students fill prescriptions all day. Blame the profession, not the preceptor.

Maybe...just maybe...they can fill for 2-3 hours then go home and study. Come the next day their preceptor can spend 5 minutes (just 5 minutes) listening to them discuss the topic they studied on? Or is it better to keep them at the counter counting by 5s all day for 10-12 hours with a 30 min lunch?

I guess some preceptors believe it is more beneficial to have students master counting by 5s for 40 hours a week.

 

[mentos]

Maybe...just maybe...they can fill for 2-3 hours then go home and study. Come the next day their preceptor can spend 5 minutes (just 5 minutes) listening to them discuss the topic they studied on? Or is it better to keep them at the counter counting by 5s all day for 10-12 hours with a 30 min lunch?

I guess some preceptors believe it is more beneficial to have students master counting by 5s for 40 hours a week.

When there are metrics on the line, the pharmacy manager only cares about their bonus. They will take advantage of all the free help they get.