Class of 2025... How you doin’?

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However, I’m still scared about taking out that much debt upfront even though I know I will have help repaying it. Will it make a difference in my life with having that much debt tied to my name? In my mind, I was just about to fully commit to WSU, and now I’m conflicted again
As someone who had several emergencies during vet school (repeating first year, death in the family, loss of roommates, etc), the money needed for vet school may change drastically. I didn't anticipate paying for 1st year twice; I didn't anticipate dealing with a dead persons financials; I didn't anticipate not having a roommate this year.

I was raised with hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. When 10s of thousands of dollars are on the line, its a good motto to follow.

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What factors do you think makes it worth paying an extra 45,000 plus interest to go to Oregon? Honest question. What makes it that much better to you? Is family closer or there’s more opportunity for a spouse to get a job? Or do you just like surface things like fancier facilities or some program they tout? I’m truly asking to see what you think you’ll get at Oregon you don’t think you’ll get at Washington that you’re willing to spend that much extra on. Will they help you pay your loans at the cheaper school? If you went to Oregon and took out more debt what would happen if your parents end up in a situation where they can’t help? Why not save them 45,000+ they can put towards their own retirement by choosing the cheaper school?

Edit: It can be more difficult to get home loans and similar things with a high debt load. Some lenders will look at your debt to income ratio and say ‘no way’. Some will calculate loan amounts using your income based payments. More paperwork involved but not impossible. There’s the emotional aspect...it’s easier to feel like you’re making progress if you owe 125k than if you owe 200k. You will have less monthly cash flow for emergencies, vacation, retirement planning, etc because you’re having to pay more (or save more for forgiveness) every single month, month after month, for twenty years.
 
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What factors do you think makes it worth paying an extra 45,000 plus interest to go to Oregon? Honest question. What makes it that much better to you? Is family closer or there’s more opportunity for a spouse to get a job? Or do you just like surface things like fancier facilities or some program they tout? I’m truly asking to see what you think you’ll get at Oregon you don’t think you’ll get at Washington that you’re willing to spend that much extra on. Will they help you pay your loans at the cheaper school? If you went to Oregon and took out more debt what would happen if your parents end up in a situation where they can’t help? Why not save them 45,000+ they can put towards their own retirement by choosing the cheaper school?
I was honestly completely ready to commit to WSU, and I told them I was fine with my decision, but they brought this up to me and I don’t know what to make of it. I’m sure if they’re offering me help that they wouldn’t just take it away if I decide against Oregon but I don’t know. The biggest factor is honestly my boyfriend of 5 years moving with me and not having as many job opportunities in Pullman. I will feel so guilty if he comes with me and it ends up financially hurting him in the long run. I’m really trying to consider everything, but I’m finding it hard to predict how exactly everything will go. 😞
 
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I was honestly completely ready to commit to WSU, and I told them I was fine with my decision, but they brought this up to me and I don’t know what to make of it. I’m sure if they’re offering me help that they wouldn’t just take it away if I decide against Oregon but I don’t know. The biggest factor is honestly my boyfriend of 5 years moving with me and not having as many job opportunities in Pullman. I will feel so guilty if he comes with me and it ends up financially hurting him in the long run. I’m really trying to consider everything, but I’m finding it hard to predict how exactly everything will go. 😞
You guys still have a months and a half before having to make that decision. If your boyfriend is serious about moving with you, maybe he can have his feelers out on the job market for both locations during this period.
I think choosing a slightly more expensive school for a better financial outlook of your SO is legitimate. I might be going to Davis over Purdue, which is $80,000 more expensive for me, because my husband has better positions there. However, I'm not going to commit to that before he at least gets a semi-formal offer/contract.
 
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I was honestly completely ready to commit to WSU, and I told them I was fine with my decision, but they brought this up to me and I don’t know what to make of it. I’m sure if they’re offering me help that they wouldn’t just take it away if I decide against Oregon but I don’t know. The biggest factor is honestly my boyfriend of 5 years moving with me and not having as many job opportunities in Pullman. I will feel so guilty if he comes with me and it ends up financially hurting him in the long run. I’m really trying to consider everything, but I’m finding it hard to predict how exactly everything will go. 😞
I think that's a discussion you should be having with him - is there any possibility of doing LD while you're in school if he's really that concerned about finding a job, or maybe have him move as close as he can to Pullman but still have a good shot at finding a job? If he says he will move with you regardless of your choice, and you've both talked through the financial and career implications for him, you need to take him at his word. He's an adult capable of making his own decisions. You also do NOT have to make a decision for almost a full month and a half - give it a little time, let him research things a bit before you decide for him that he cannot possibly function there!

You'd also be surprised at what people can do from remote areas. Good friend of mine from high school is a dentist, and she received a job with the VA to work on underserved populations in North Dakota for 5 years in return for a moderate salary, her loans paid off at the end & relocation stipends on either end. Her husband is a patent lawyer - not exactly finding a whole lot of work while they're in the middle of rural ND! - and he is essentially working whatever remote gigs he can, along with raising their two daughters. There are ways this can work out for the best, if some foresight is put in.

AND, at the end of all this, you will have a more manageable debt load to be able to plan for your futures together. You guys may be able to buy a house or save for a wedding/kids earlier & with a lot more comfort than you would have with an extra $45k tacked on to your initial bill. (Remember, that's just the upfront cost, the interest over repayment will make that $45 jump up quite a bit more.) I'm always going to vote going for the cheaper option unless you have a significant support system near one school vs. another.
 
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I think that's a discussion you should be having with him - is there any possibility of doing LD while you're in school if he's really that concerned about finding a job, or maybe have him move as close as he can to Pullman but still have a good shot at finding a job? If he says he will move with you regardless of your choice, and you've both talked through the financial and career implications for him, you need to take him at his word. He's an adult capable of making his own decisions. You also do NOT have to make a decision for almost a full month and a half - give it a little time, let him research things a bit before you decide for him that he cannot possibly function there!

You'd also be surprised at what people can do from remote areas. Good friend of mine from high school is a dentist, and she received a job with the VA to work on underserved populations in North Dakota for 5 years in return for a moderate salary, her loans paid off at the end & relocation stipends on either end. Her husband is a patent lawyer - not exactly finding a whole lot of work while they're in the middle of rural ND! - and he is essentially working whatever remote gigs he can, along with raising their two daughters. There are ways this can work out for the best, if some foresight is put in.

AND, at the end of all this, you will have a more manageable debt load to be able to plan for your futures together. You guys may be able to buy a house or save for a wedding/kids earlier & with a lot more comfort than you would have with an extra $45k tacked on to your initial bill. (Remember, that's just the upfront cost, the interest over repayment will make that $45 jump up quite a bit more.) I'm always going to vote going for the cheaper option unless you have a significant support system near one school vs. another.
Thank you for this. I just started getting really overwhelmed with the thought of what his outlook would look like in Pullman and how my decision might affect him, and then my parents just came at me with this curve ball, and I honestly didn’t know what to think. I think we will seriously start looking into jobs and housing in Pullman, and hopefully maybe that can ease my mind.
 
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Thank you for this. I just started getting really overwhelmed with the thought of what his outlook would look like in Pullman and how my decision might affect him, and then my parents just came at me with this curve ball, and I honestly didn’t know what to think. I think we will seriously start looking into jobs and housing in Pullman, and hopefully maybe that can ease my mind.
It wouldn’t be super close, but he could also check into jobs in Spokane, which is a bigger city than Pullman
 
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I’m sorry if I’m being annoying with this! I really appreciate all of your more knowledgable opinions 😩 but I spoke with my parents and they want me to be able to make my decision without worrying about the money. They aren’t able to pay the difference upfront, but they said they are willing the contribute to my monthly loan payments (or tax savings) to make up for the difference in tuition between Oregon and WSU. However, I’m still scared about taking out that much debt upfront even though I know I will have help repaying it. Will it make a difference in my life with having that much debt tied to my name? In my mind, I was just about to fully commit to WSU, and now I’m conflicted again. 😔
I would also encourage you to not rely on your parents help-just for the following reason. COVID hit alot of people by surprise. TONS of people lost their jobs-my dad included. My parents have been very generous in helping me and luckily are financially well off enough that they still help when they can, but I definitely never expected help and don't expect it-especially now. You never know what might happen and they might not be able to help for various reasons even if they fully planned to before.

Having additional debt tied to your name can make barriers to things you want to do later in life-just depends what your goals are!
 
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For the boyfriend job things-alot of people work in Lewiston and Clarkston that has more jobs too. You can always shoot me a PM and I can try and help! Not saying I will have a solution, but might be able to think of some places
 
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It’s all getting so real!! I was accepted to St. George, Ross, and Texas A&M. I received an interview invite from Texas tech but respectfully declined once I heard from Texas A&M. I was set on going to St. George if I didn’t get into either in-state school. Thankful for the many opportunities given by these schools, but happy and ready to become an Aggie vet!!
 
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I finally made my decision! I'm committing to PennVet!!!!!!!!!!
 
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I finally made my decision! I'm committing to PennVet!!!!!!!!!!
How exciting!!! I’m still waiting to hear from my IS (UF) before I commit anywhere- will be going to UF if accepted and Ohio if not. Can’t believe this is actually happening!!!
 
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Still in disbelief I’ll actually be attending vet school this fall— 🙌🏻😭 how the rest of my fellow class of 2025 feeling as decision day approaches? 😬
 
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Still in disbelief I’ll actually be attending vet school this fall— 🙌🏻😭 how the rest of my fellow class of 2025 feeling as decision day approaches? 😬
I already committed and it still hasn't sunk in. Most of the time I'm just going about my day like normal and all of a sudden I'll be in a random aisle at Target and be like "HOLY **** IM GOING TO VET SCHOOL." It's a really strange feeling after years of waiting for this day to come 😂
 
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Still in disbelief I’ll actually be attending vet school this fall— 🙌🏻😭 how the rest of my fellow class of 2025 feeling as decision day approaches? 😬
I already committed and it still hasn't sunk in. Most of the time I'm just going about my day like normal and all of a sudden I'll be in a random aisle at Target and be like "HOLY **** IM GOING TO VET SCHOOL." It's a really strange feeling after years of waiting for this day to come 😂
^^^ totally feel that! I have only one class this semester so I have zero motivation too :laugh:
 
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Still in disbelief I’ll actually be attending vet school this fall— 🙌🏻😭 how the rest of my fellow class of 2025 feeling as decision day approaches? 😬
I'm baffled that I passed both my orgo 2 and biochem midterms this week, making it evident that I'm *actually* starting in the fall! I'm still deciding between Ohio and Tufts but have a much better idea of what I'm looking for now. I'm slightly leaning Tufts at the moment and was able to register for an online physics 2 course that seems manageable with my summer work. (Though I'm still considering Ohio) and other than that, I guess it's time to start getting ready 😳

new stresses include finding housing for my husky and I, and trying not to burn out before I even get started
 
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Still in disbelief I’ll actually be attending vet school this fall— 🙌🏻😭 how the rest of my fellow class of 2025 feeling as decision day approaches? 😬
I already committed and it still hasn't sunk in. Most of the time I'm just going about my day like normal and all of a sudden I'll be in a random aisle at Target and be like "HOLY **** IM GOING TO VET SCHOOL." It's a really strange feeling after years of waiting for this day to come 😂
I've officially committed too! I'm going to Illinois! (Can't remember how to edit the sub-name on here or I would have changed it by now to say University of Illinois C/O 2025). But it hasn't really sunk in for me yet either. I don't think it will until I start packing for the move from Texas to Illinois! Or maybe on the drive there. :shrug:
 
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I still have absolutely no idea where I want to go (narrowed it down to two schools) and am starting to freak out with only two weeks left to decide... no idea what I’ll do 😩 but honestly it’s a nice problem to have!
 
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I still have absolutely no idea where I want to go (narrowed it down to two schools) and am starting to freak out with only two weeks left to decide... no idea what I’ll do 😩 but honestly it’s a nice problem to have!
Cheapest cheapest cheapest cheapest
 
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I still have absolutely no idea where I want to go (narrowed it down to two schools) and am starting to freak out with only two weeks left to decide... no idea what I’ll do 😩 but honestly it’s a nice problem to have!
Which two?
 
Cheapest cheapest cheapest cheapest
Yeah I know that’s what I should do :/ but I want to do zoo med and one has significantly more opportunities and connections than the other... and I’d like to go the public service loan forgiveness path (if possible) but again who knows. I also have savings which makes things seem less daunting but again it would suck to have to spend it all and still have debt.
Which two?
CSU and WSU as WICHE (from AZ)!
 
public service loan forgiveness path
Do not rely on this. There is absolutely no guarantee it will happen and you should never rely on forgiveness.
spend your breaks and externships doing zoo Med stuff and making those connections. Zoo Med pays garbage so you really need to limit your debt from the start. You’re looking at a minimum of 5 years of ****tier pay before even being boarded but that whole time your debt is racking up interest. Go where your tuition plus COL is cheapest and make the most of your off time (breaks, off blocks, externships).
 
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Yeah I know that’s what I should do :/ but I want to do zoo med and one has significantly more opportunities and connections than the other... and I’d like to go the public service loan forgiveness path (if possible) but again who knows. I also have savings which makes things seem less daunting but again it would suck to have to spend it all and still have debt.

CSU and WSU as WICHE (from AZ)!
If you really want to do zoo med it's even more important to manage your debt burden as best as you can. No matter where you go there is going to be some element of making your own opportunities and connections. It's not a field that gets handed to you. And I know so many zoo vets who have to pick up ER or vaccine clinic shifts to supplement their income. I have classmates who wanted to do zoo med but had to change to something else because they realized it wasn't going to be financially tenable. Go to your cheapest option.
 
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Yeah I know that’s what I should do :/ but I want to do zoo med and one has significantly more opportunities and connections than the other... and I’d like to go the public service loan forgiveness path (if possible) but again who knows. I also have savings which makes things seem less daunting but again it would suck to have to spend it all and still have debt.

CSU and WSU as WICHE (from AZ)!
Hi I'm a vet who graduated with way less debt than most people and still hate it. I cannot stress enough that choosing the cheaper school is the better option.

Plus, then you can spend money on attending exotics conferences, doing externships, and the such. Which are really the most important things by far! It's a lot of good grades and who you know.
 
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Yeah I know that’s what I should do :/ but I want to do zoo med and one has significantly more opportunities and connections than the other... and I’d like to go the public service loan forgiveness path (if possible) but again who knows. I also have savings which makes things seem less daunting but again it would suck to have to spend it all and still have debt.

CSU and WSU as WICHE (from AZ)!
You can work in the exotics department at WSU, we also have many opportunities if you really want to get involved. Lots of conference my classmates have gone to for exotics. 3 exotics electives year 3. We share an exotics conference with OSU. Aquatics clubs, ZEW, and wildlife club-lots of opportunities if you get involved. Also being in WA lots of opportunities you can make for yourself over on the coast in the summers or in MT if you're more interested in wildlife. A 4th year this year went out to CO and did 2 weeks at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo like the CSU students can do.
Not to sound like a broken record-go to your cheapest option :)
 
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Yeah I know that’s what I should do :/ but I want to do zoo med and one has significantly more opportunities and connections than the other... and I’d like to go the public service loan forgiveness path (if possible) but again who knows. I also have savings which makes things seem less daunting but again it would suck to have to spend it all and still have debt.

CSU and WSU as WICHE (from AZ)
Come to WSU! I was also struggling to choose between a more expensive school and WSU, and ultimately I’m really glad everybody on here advised me to go with the cheapest route. Because after looking at all the additional costs with housing and stuff, I really realized how expensive and stressful it’s going to be. I’m also interested in exotics (more towards companion practice), and their zoom session on exotics looked really promising and I’m excited!
 
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Thanks all for the insight! Yeah I was heavily leaning towards WSU due to finances but then thought it might be a smart career move to form relationships with and get letters of rec from the boarded exotics people at CSU. I am visiting WSU this weekend so hopefully that brings some clarity!

Edit: SDN is changing what I’ve written in this post and I’m so confused
 
Thanks all for the insight! Yeah I was heavily leaning towards WSU due to finances but then thought it might be a smart career move to form relationships with and get messages in bottles of rec from the boarded exotics people at CSU. I am visiting WSU this weekend so hopefully that brings some clarity!

Edit: SDN is changing what I’ve written in this post and I’m so confused
It’s April fools day :laugh:
Welcome to SDN pranks hahaha
 
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Thanks all for the insight! Yeah I was heavily leaning towards WSU due to finances but then thought it might be a smart career move to form relationships with and get messages in bottles of rec from the boarded exotics people at CSU. I am visiting WSU this weekend so hopefully that brings some clarity!

Edit: SDN is changing what I’ve written in this post and I’m so confused
PM me if you need anything/have questions while you're in town!
 
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so despite being really excited about starting school, i also find lately i'm kind of anxious. scared feels like a strong word, but i've never had this much anxiety about moving before. i'm normally pretty comfortable with the in-between of different phases of life, especially given the temporary nature of fieldwork. i don't mind. i rarely live in a city for more than a year at a time. but this feels different. i'm having such a hard time articulating my anxiety lol it doesn't even make sense to me but wanted to see if anyone else feels similarly. everything is happening so quickly and i'm kind of freaked out. and that i'm freaked out is freaking me out. maybe it's my fear of commitment.

is the emotional roller coaster before starting vet school normal? do you ever feel settled/established once you start?
 
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Thanks all for the insight! Yeah I was heavily leaning towards WSU due to finances but then thought it might be a smart career move to form relationships with and get messages in bottles of rec from the boarded exotics people at CSU. I am visiting WSU this weekend so hopefully that brings some clarity!

Edit: SDN is changing what I’ve written in this post and I’m so confused

if it helps, i met the contact i'm planning to do wildlife research with at a conference, and he'd agreed to mentor me regardless of what vet school i attended. he also actually encouraged me to attend the cheaper school. and aside from my immediate local mentor/supervisor, i think i've met most of my research/professional contacts at conferences. i'd definitely try to attend as many as possible -- especially now that so many are virtual and many are less expensive.

that said, full disclosure, i'm unwisely leaning toward the more expensive school. while this is the school that first contact is affiliated with, it has nothing to do with that, or with wildlife. it's much more with distance from family and mental health. i don't think those are things i can sacrifice in the present to be happy or thankful about in the future. all else roughly equal, though? yeah, team cheaper school in terms of finding opportunities & networking.
 
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so despite being really excited about starting school, i also find lately i'm kind of anxious. scared feels like a strong word, but i've never had this much anxiety about moving before. i'm normally pretty comfortable with the in-between of different phases of life, especially given the temporary nature of fieldwork. i don't mind. i rarely live in a city for more than a year at a time. but this feels different. i'm having such a hard time articulating my anxiety lol it doesn't even make sense to me but wanted to see if anybunny else feels similarly. everything is happening so quickly and i'm kind of freaked out. and that i'm freaked out is freaking me out. maybe it's my fear of commitment.

is the emotional roller coaster before starting vet school normal? do you ever feel settled/established once you start?
It's totally normal to have trepidation/anxiety about such a big change.

For as long as I've been around SDN there's been similar vibes prior to school, often along with a big ole side of imposter syndrome. ;) You're not alone.
 
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so despite being really excited about starting school, i also find lately i'm kind of anxious. scared feels like a strong word, but i've never had this much anxiety about moving before. i'm normally pretty comfortable with the in-between of different phases of life, especially given the temporary nature of fieldwork. i don't mind. i rarely live in a city for more than a year at a time. but this feels different. i'm having such a hard time articulating my anxiety lol it doesn't even make sense to me but wanted to see if anyone else feels similarly. everything is happening so quickly and i'm kind of freaked out. and that i'm freaked out is freaking me out. maybe it's my fear of commitment.

is the emotional roller coaster before starting vet school normal? do you ever feel settled/established once you start?
I feel this with you!! I am currently agonizing over making a decision (and also leaning unwisely)... and my anxiety keeps getting worse. I was stressed with interviews and hearing back from schools and kept telling myself it would get better once those parts were done but I'm kind of freaking out now. It feels like such a huge decision and big change and one that we've been thinking about/planning for/working towards for so long yet it feels so fast/weird that it's actually happening now. Maybe that's part of why it feels so heavy? I don't really understand it either but I'm glad other people feel the same way. Sending you chill vibes:)
 
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It's totally normal to have trepidation/anxiety about such a big change.

For as long as I've been around SDN there's been similar vibes prior to school, often along with a big ole side of imposter syndrome. ;) You're not alone.
this is so helpful to read. thank you for sharing. doesn't feel great to be feeling this way, but it's a relief to see that I'm not alone
 
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I feel this with you!! I am currently agonizing over making a decision (and also leaning unwisely)... and my anxiety keeps getting worse. I was stressed with interviews and hearing back from schools and kept telling myself it would get better once those parts were done but I'm kind of freaking out now. It feels like such a huge decision and big change and one that we've been thinking about/planning for/working towards for so long yet it feels so fast/weird that it's actually happening now. Maybe that's part of why it feels so heavy? I don't really understand it either but I'm glad other people feel the same way. Sending you chill vibes:)
I completely sympathize. I went through a similar wave of anxiety. Like, "Okay I'll feel better once interview invites are out and if I get rejected at least I'll know." moved to "I'll feel better once interviews are done,," which then transformed into, "oh, god, I got in." which brings me to where I am now. I think you nailed it; it went against my nature to craft a detailed '5-year-pre-vet-plan' but I did it anyway, adapted to it, and heck, I shaved an extra year off of that plan. So now I'm here, no plan, and kind of staring the rest of my adult life in the eye which is just... wild to me. I prefer not having a plan. But I didn't anticipate feeling so... much like a fledgling getting kicked out of a nest.

and chill vibes to you too :) we will get through the anxiety
 
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Do we get out financial aid packages before decision day or no?
 
Do we get out financial aid packages before decision day or no?
Usually no. I dont think I even got my package until midsummer. If you're going to any schools in the states you can count on being offered the full COA in loans. As a general rule I wouldnt count on anything beyond that as far as like scholarships or anything like that
 
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I was wondering about illinois!
Nope you very likely won’t hear anything from financial aid before the decision day. Like mixy said, you’ll get full COA in loans offered, but illinois doesn’t really do scholarships for incoming first years. It’s been discussed on the illinois 2025 thread already that any “recruitment scholarships” aren’t given until towards the end of your first year even though that’s what they’re called.
 
Do we get out financial aid packages before decision day or no?

Usually no. I dont think I even got my package until midsummer. If you're going to any schools in the states you can count on being offered the full COA in loans. As a general rule I wouldnt count on anything beyond that as far as like scholarships or anything like that

Yes, from the few schools I've received financial packages, it's usually just the loans. Recruitment scholarships are already released, and I haven't seen any significant amount of scholarship in my financial packages. Many a few thousand dollars here and there but it doesn't change the big picture of your COA.
Nope you very likely won’t hear anything from financial aid before the decision day. Like mixy said, you’ll get full COA in loans offered, but illinois doesn’t really do scholarships for incoming first years. It’s been discussed on the illinois 2025 thread already that any “recruitment scholarships” aren’t given until towards the end of your first year even though that’s what they’re called.
I got a scholarship from Illinois with the amount of $1000 :rofl:
 
Thank you for this. I just started getting really overwhelmed with the thought of what his outlook would look like in Pullman and how my decision might affect him, and then my parents just came at me with this curve ball, and I honestly didn’t know what to think. I think we will seriously start looking into jobs and housing in Pullman, and hopefully maybe that can ease my mind.
Hi, I'm a little late to this but I wanted to offer some piece of mind based on my current situation. I'm finishing up my masters at WSU right now and starting vet school here in the fall. My partner graduated from WSU last year with a relatively specialized degree and received multiple job offers from cities surrounding Pullman (and one in Pullman) within two months of their graduation (Summer 2020- we were incredibly fortunate)- for us it made sense to go with one of the better paying offers that was outside of Pullman. They live about 1.5 hours away (Tri-cities area) during the week and then commute to Pullman most weekends.

It's certainly not the ideal situation but we make it work. If you and your boyfriend are willing to be flexible there is a fair amount of opportunity within Pullman and the surrounding area. The university also has quite a few positions open at any given time, depending on what his field is.
 
This may be a bit downer post in this chat... but has anyone else been really feeling imposter syndrome since accepting their seat?
 
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This may be a bit downer post in this chat... but has anyone else been really feeling imposter syndrome since accepting their seat?
If it helps you, read through previous years threads, especially from those who've graduated and are vets now. It can be inspiration that all of us go through it, and even out in practice. It never truly goes away, but you learn how to conquer those thoughts and keep rocking it out. You were accepted, you are worthy, and you will just have to believe in yourself to keep going. <3
 
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There’s people in vet school currently who are still dealing with it. A fourth year from my school created a vet med mental health Facebook page which I definitely recommend joining. It’s for anyone in vet med, whether they’re a tech, student, doctor, or office support staff. Even if you don’t post, you still can read through other people’s posts and see things they’re dealing with and that you’re not the only one dealing with this stuff.

 
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