Future anesthesia job market ?

[pgg]

What we need is decrease to a total of 1,000 per year from 1662. You will thank me later for your better job as a result.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Cutting our numbers fuels the AANA's argument that independent CRNAs are necessary to meet demand.

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[BLADEMDA]

I don't think it's quite that simple. Cutting our numbers fuels the AANA's argument that independent CRNAs are necessary to meet demand.

Cutting our numbers and increasing AA schools at the same time. We talk about the ACT model so EMBRACE the model and train AAs.

Honestly, Creating 12 new AA schools which train 50 AAs per year while cutting 600 Residency positions is a good idea for the new graduate looking for a job.

 

[deleted171991]

Don't hold your breath. The academics won't give up easily 600 slaves (I bet they are the source of the increase). Plus if we take away 600 residents, they will be replaced with 900+ CRNAs, and God forbid somebody breaks his/her back with 1:3+ CRNA coverage, like regular mortals (will) do.

Nope, they want MORE residents, so more of them can work 1:2, if not 1:1. Supervising residents remotely, while writing one's next toilet paper, is an exhausting job.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Don't hold your breath. The academics won't give up easily 600 slaves (I bet they are the source of the increase). Plus if we take away 600 residents, they will be replaced with 900+ CRNAs, and God forbid somebody breaks his/her back with 1:3+ CRNA coverage, like regular mortals (will) do.

Nope, they want MORE residents, so more of them can work 1:2, if not 1:1. Supervising residents while writing one's next toilet paper is an exhausting job.

The AANA has been pumping up the number of CRNAs. With the opening of AA Schools (12 new ones) plus the glut of CRNAs in place the economics of decreasing residency positions by 400 (600 is unrealistic) works quite well. After all, the goal is to train residents for employment in the real world as well as academics.

 

[deleted171991]

Don't misunderstand me; I agree with your solution 100%. We have to make ourselves scarce, to survive (all of us). It just won't happen.

 

[Baller MD]

These new graduates will drive starting salaries down even further. AMCs will exploit the newly inflated numbers by offering lower salaries. Fellowship positions will become sought after in even greater numbers.

This is happening in Radiology right now.

 

[BLADEMDA]

FYI,

I'm still recommending Anesthesiology with a Fellowship to Average med students in my PMs. For an average student the choices aren't that many with IM/Subspecialty or Anesthesiology/Fellowship or FP/Peds. IMHO, a fellowship is important for the long run as more general anesthesiologists complete their residencies and seek employment.

 

[Yo GabbaPentin]

This is happening in Radiology right now.

Crap. Now AMCs manage radiology too? Those bastards! Next thing ya know, they'll get into derm and ophtha for a complete R.O.A.D. takeover.

And to think that ROAD used to lead to happiness....

 

[deleted171991]

FYI,

I'm still recommending Anesthesiology with a Fellowship to Average med students in my PMs. For an average student the choices aren't that many with IM/Subspecialty or Anesthesiology/Fellowship or FP/Peds. IMHO, a fellowship is important for the long run as more general anesthesiologists complete their residencies and seek employment.

It's not worth staying a general anesthesiologist. Despite the fact that some of them run circles around some of the subspecialists, nobody that matters gives a damn.

 

[deleted171991]

Crap. Now AMCs manage radiology too? Those bastards! Next thing ya know, they'll get into derm and ophtha for a complete R.O.A.D. takeover.

And to think that ROAD used to lead to happiness....

Like all recent healthcare roads, it has been paved with good intentions by incompetents.

 

[Baller MD]

Crap. Now AMCs manage radiology too? Those bastards! Next thing ya know, they'll get into derm and ophtha for a complete R.O.A.D. takeover.

And to think that ROAD used to lead to happiness....

I should've been more specific. There is a glut of radiologists right now because of the residency expansion back in the 2000s. And the higher ups of course refuse to decrease the number of spots. It's almost as bad as path if not already there.

 

[HollATme]

Perhaps the best route would be to take the ones less traveled -
1. primary care (IM, FM - I would not do pediatrics) - you can dictate care without taking insurance, you name your hours, etc. plus lots of financial incentives in terms of loan payback programs, contracts and bonuses, forgiveness, etc. Potential fellowship options too, if you desire.
2. psychiatry - dictate care and name your hours
3. PM&R - nice lifestyle with the potential for going into pain
4. OBGYN - then go into REI - cash based practice. People will still pay top dollar to have a child.
5. Occupational medicine?? - Head about this from a colleague. However, admittedly, I'm much less privy to this particular specialty.

 

[gasdoc77]

How about hormone "optimization" therapy. Where we fall short is we buy into the whole you've gotta do fellowships theory to practice anything. I see general surgeons, one of whom that comes to mind is a complete imbecile, on TV with wellness clinics using hormone replacement. I know for a fact he's no expert. He has intermittently lost priveleges at the Hospital, yet he is an authority on this? Selling out? Maybe, but eventually we will either join the ranks of the business savvy or work for them. Sad but true.

 

[msmith83]

Is getting into a pain fellowship as difficult at getting into cards or GI out of internal. Wasn't able to find much on competitiveness of the fellowship

 

[CambieMD]

"I am an IMG. I work solo in a surgicenter for less than $250K/year (because I don't have the leverage to pressure my corporate boss into paying me more, plus life is about more than money). I love my work and what I am able to do personally for my patients, and you cannot pay me enough to feel the same way working with CRNAs (at least not for now, and not in a surgicenter). It's not about the money; it's about helping people. They are not just a sum in my pocket; they are human beings, somebody else's child/spouse/sibling/parent/grandparent/entire world. One can pay me less for my solo work, but I am not just a slave on the plantation, and the patient is more than just cotton. I would rather be paid less than risk having bad outcomes from improperly supervised midlevels. THAT is my sell-out mentality."

I loved the above statement. You cannot drcide on a specialty based on how much money you expect to make. I left family practice because I did not enjoy the work. I have received calls from recruiters offering me more than some specialists make. The calls have no effect on me. I love what I do. I would work for much less. I fell blessed that I can practice a profession that I enjoy. There are so many people out there who are strugggling to make ends meet. To be willing to work for less than 250K in no great sacrifice. A normal person reading this would wonder if we are out of touch with the rest of the greater society that we are part of. Money is not everything. I love being a physician because there is nothing like helping someone feel better. I meet an attorney who left law to become a physician. He told me that in medicine everyone can will. He fights illness in medicine and not another legal team.

 

[circulus vitios]

The majority of surgeons in my area (80 percent plus) bring their best paying patients to the ASC which they own. By your definition they are "slimy as hell." But, by my definition they are good business people and multi-millionaires.

Isn't that illegal with the Stark Law?

 

[BLADEMDA]

Isn't that illegal with the Stark Law?

No. Patients are told their surgeon has a financial interest in the center and thus have the right to go to the hospital if they prefer.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Isn't that illegal with the Stark Law?

http://www.bricker.com/services/resource-details.aspx?resourceid=452

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Perhaps the best route would be to take the ones less traveled -
1. primary care (IM, FM - I would not do pediatrics) - you can dictate care without taking insurance, you name your hours, etc. plus lots of financial incentives in terms of loan payback programs, contracts and bonuses, forgiveness, etc. Potential fellowship options too, if you desire.
2. psychiatry - dictate care and name your hours
3. PM&R - nice lifestyle with the potential for going into pain
4. OBGYN - then go into REI - cash based practice. People will still pay top dollar to have a child.
5. Occupational medicine?? - Head about this from a colleague. However, admittedly, I'm much less privy to this particular specialty.

 

[@JackShephard]

Perhaps the best route would be to take the ones less traveled -
1. primary care (IM, FM - I would not do pediatrics) - you can dictate care without taking insurance, you name your hours, etc. plus lots of financial incentives in terms of loan payback programs, contracts and bonuses, forgiveness, etc. Potential fellowship options too, if you desire.
2. psychiatry - dictate care and name your hours
3. PM&R - nice lifestyle with the potential for going into pain
4. OBGYN - then go into REI - cash based practice. People will still pay top dollar to have a child.
5. Occupational medicine?? - Head about this from a colleague. However, admittedly, I'm much less privy to this particular specialty.

The only issue is that the easier jobs in medicine will have a lot of midlevel competition in the future. Anesthesia is already dealing with it, but the specialties on the list above have yet to deal with that issue.

 

[secants]

This month's ASA newsletter published a survey of the 2013 graduating residents trying to get a job. Most went into PP, appying to an average of 4-7 places with starting salaries of $250K. Most comments said it was harder finding a job this year etc etc.

 

[Doc2Dr]

To be willing to work for less than 250K in no great sacrifice. A normal person reading this would wonder if we are out of touch with the rest of the greater society that we are part of.

You say that working for less than 250k is no great sacrifice, and saying so puts us out of touch. But isn't the layperson out of touch with our sacrifice? I left my prior career to become a physician. I've been in school for 8 years and matched to anesthesiology this year because I love the job, or at least what I've seen of it. I also have 300k in student loan debt and four years of making resident salary ahead of me. If I get out of residency and make 250k a year, pay 98,750$ a year in taxes because I'm "rich", then another 60k a year in loan payments I'm taking home 91,250$. I'll also be working more hours than the average American and have fewer years to put away for retirement, which will also come out of that 91k. So I'll clear less than 100k a year after 12 years of training to do a job a very small percentage of people can do. Where's the incentive for others to follow this path?

I don't think I'm greedy if I would like to make 300k+ a year as an attending. I think I'm realsitic about what it will take to give my family a stable life after the sacrifice they've shared with me.

 

[k12balla]

You say that working for less than 250k is no great sacrifice, and saying so puts us out of touch. But isn't the layperson out of touch with our sacrifice? I left my prior career to become a physician. I've been in school for 8 years and matched to anesthesiology this year because I love the job, or at least what I've seen of it. I also have 300k in student loan debt and four years of making resident salary ahead of me. If I get out of residency and make 250k a year, pay 98,750$ a year in taxes because I'm "rich", then another 60k a year in loan payments I'm taking home 91,250$. I'll also be working more hours than the average American and have fewer years to put away for retirement, which will also come out of that 91k. So I'll clear less than 100k a year after 12 years of training to do a job a very small percentage of people can do. Where's the incentive for others to follow this path?

I don't think I'm greedy if I would like to make 300k+ a year as an attending. I think I'm realsitic about what it will take to give my family a stable life after the sacrifice they've shared with me.

Agreed!

 

[deleted126335]

You say that working for less than 250k is no great sacrifice, and saying so puts us out of touch. But isn't the layperson out of touch with our sacrifice? I left my prior career to become a physician. I've been in school for 8 years and matched to anesthesiology this year because I love the job, or at least what I've seen of it. I also have 300k in student loan debt and four years of making resident salary ahead of me. If I get out of residency and make 250k a year, pay 98,750$ a year in taxes because I'm "rich", then another 60k a year in loan payments I'm taking home 91,250$. I'll also be working more hours than the average American and have fewer years to put away for retirement, which will also come out of that 91k. So I'll clear less than 100k a year after 12 years of training to do a job a very small percentage of people can do. Where's the incentive for others to follow this path?

I don't think I'm greedy if I would like to make 300k+ a year as an attending. I think I'm realsitic about what it will take to give my family a stable life after the sacrifice they've shared with me.

I agree with you, but the inevitable response will be, "You don't have to do it. Med school applications are still going strong. Plenty of med students still signing up for anesthesia. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"

 

[gasdoc77]

You say that working for less than 250k is no great sacrifice, and saying so puts us out of touch. But isn't the layperson out of touch with our sacrifice? I left my prior career to become a physician. I've been in school for 8 years and matched to anesthesiology this year because I love the job, or at least what I've seen of it. I also have 300k in student loan debt and four years of making resident salary ahead of me. If I get out of residency and make 250k a year, pay 98,750$ a year in taxes because I'm "rich", then another 60k a year in loan payments I'm taking home 91,250$. I'll also be working more hours than the average American and have fewer years to put away for retirement, which will also come out of that 91k. So I'll clear less than 100k a year after 12 years of training to do a job a very small percentage of people can do. Where's the incentive for others to follow this path?

I don't think I'm greedy if I would like to make 300k+ a year as an attending. I think I'm realsitic about what it will take to give my family a stable life after the sacrifice they've shared with me.

Another sacrifice you may not yet realize is the complete lack of control you will have in practice over your schedule and the impact that will have on your life. Is the surgeon running late? You will simply be sitting at the hospital awaiting his arrival. You leave when the work is done, period. It will effect your participation in family events, personal activities, etc. Almost no other career as a physician offers such lack of autonomy. Does X heart surgeon want all his cases in the room lined up and ready by 6:30 am? Done.Nevermind if he is frequently late. You are entering a service industry, not a medical practice. Every practice I've ever been in has its own culture of servitude. Anyone in denial needs to familiarize themselves with Stockholm syndrome. Am I simply a difficult personality? Quite the contrary. I am one of the most outgoing people in my group with superb working relationships. I simply recognize the reality of my position, one in which the hospital views anesthesia as an expense and not an asset, thus I am very upfront with those following suit. Meanwhile, if I ever achieve FU money, my tolerance for the daily injustices might dissipate.

 

[gasdoc77]

O

Another sacrifice you may not yet realize is the complete lack of control you will have in practice over your schedule and the impact that will have on your life. Is the surgeon running late? You will simply be sitting at the hospital awaiting his arrival. You leave when the work is done, period. It will effect your participation in family events, personal activities, etc. Almost no other career as a physician offers such lack of autonomy. Does X heart surgeon want all his cases in the room lined up and ready by 6:30 am? Done.Nevermind if he is frequently late. You are entering a service industry, not a medical practice. Every practice I've ever been in has its own culture of servitude. Anyone in denial needs to familiarize themselves with Stockholm syndrome. Am I simply a difficult personality? Quite the contrary. I am one of the most outgoing people in my group with superb working relationships. I simply recognize the reality of my position, one in which the hospital views anesthesia as an expense and not an asset, thus I am very upfront with those following suit. Meanwhile, if I ever achieve FU money, my tolerance for the daily injustices might dissipate.

or perhaps Helsinki syndrome would be more accurate.

 

[Doc2Dr]

I agree with you, but the inevitable response will be, "You don't have to do it. Med school applications are still going strong. Plenty of med students still signing up for anesthesia. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"

And I agree with you. But the quality of applicant- anesthesiology, not just med school- may not be maintained. Look at the number of unfilled positions this year. If that becomes a trend we will go the way of the primary care physician and fill with IMGs and those who can't match into another specialty.

 

[ProwlerturnGas]

Another sacrifice you may not yet realize is the complete lack of control you will have in practice over your schedule and the impact that will have on your life. Is the surgeon running late? You will simply be sitting at the hospital awaiting his arrival. You leave when the work is done, period. It will effect your participation in family events, personal activities, etc. Almost no other career as a physician offers such lack of autonomy. Does X heart surgeon want all his cases in the room lined up and ready by 6:30 am? Done.Nevermind if he is frequently late. You are entering a service industry, not a medical practice. Every practice I've ever been in has its own culture of servitude. Anyone in denial needs to familiarize themselves with Stockholm syndrome. Am I simply a difficult personality? Quite the contrary. I am one of the most outgoing people in my group with superb working relationships. I simply recognize the reality of my position, one in which the hospital views anesthesia as an expense and not an asset, thus I am very upfront with those following suit. Meanwhile, if I ever achieve FU money, my tolerance for the daily injustices might dissipate.

This is EXACTLY right. The moment I realized this, the better my life became. Anesthesia is a service industry. Absolutely

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Another sacrifice you may not yet realize is the complete lack of control you will have in practice over your schedule and the impact that will have on your life. Is the surgeon running late? You will simply be sitting at the hospital awaiting his arrival. You leave when the work is done, period. It will effect your participation in family events, personal activities, etc. Almost no other career as a physician offers such lack of autonomy. Does X heart surgeon want all his cases in the room lined up and ready by 6:30 am? Done.Nevermind if he is frequently late. You are entering a service industry, not a medical practice. Every practice I've ever been in has its own culture of servitude. Anyone in denial needs to familiarize themselves with Stockholm syndrome. Am I simply a difficult personality? Quite the contrary. I am one of the most outgoing people in my group with superb working relationships. I simply recognize the reality of my position, one in which the hospital views anesthesia as an expense and not an asset, thus I am very upfront with those following suit. Meanwhile, if I ever achieve FU money, my tolerance for the daily injustices might dissipate.

Would you trade places with that surgeon, though?

 

[@JackShephard]

I think all the fields in medicine are going to have trouble. Each field has it's ups and downs. General surgery is by no means a cake walk. EM has lots of burnout, other fields have midlevel encroachment also, radiology is struggling now for jobs and can be outsourced easily. And surgeons will get a squeeze when they stop doing fee for service or move away from paying people to do more and more of procedures. Anesthesia is one of the majority that are struggling. The outlook is good for family medicine, but they are earning 180k annually...

 

[deleted126335]

And I agree with you. But the quality of applicant- anesthesiology, not just med school- may not be maintained. Look at the number of unfilled positions this year. If that becomes a trend we will go the way of the primary care physician and fill with IMGs and those who can't match into another specialty.

From a big picture point of view, So what if medicine or anesthesiology should get a smaller share of the sharpest, hardest working students? Maybe it will be better for society as a whole if they take their skills and efforts elsewhere. Although not so good for the next generation of patients.

 

[gasdoc77]

Wh

Would you trade places with that surgeon, though?

You will find out he was late because he was at his kid's soccer game. Mark my words.

 

[pgg]

And I agree with you. But the quality of applicant- anesthesiology, not just med school- may not be maintained.

Could be.


The highest quality residency applicants certainly chase the most lucrative and lifestyle-friendly specialties. They always have.


I'm not so sure that overall quality of medical school applicants will decline much though, for a couple reasons.

1) Most 22-year-olds applying to medical school (or 18-year-olds declaring "pre-med" majors in college) really don't have a solid grip on the financial details of post-residency careers.

2) Even if they do ... what are their alternatives? A bunch of people midway through a bio sci BS are going to do what, exactly, that beats out med school? Those high school grads are going to do what, engineering? Nursing?

3) Being a doctor still looks prestigious and glorious from the outside. The poop hot dog thread is 12 years old now and still going strong.

 

[aneftp]

I agree with you, but the inevitable response will be, "You don't have to do it. Med school applications are still going strong. Plenty of med students still signing up for anesthesia. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"

The "peak" time for med school was 1995-1996 (my years). Something like 46000 applications for 15000-16000 slots.

It tank during the internet boom from 1996-2000.

It has risen slowly again. But still 48000 application finally surpassed 1995-1996 class. But there are around 20000 slots now. So getting into med school is actually easier today than 18-19 years ago

I suspect it to continue being easier as the best and brightest move away from medicine.

You cannot quantify medicine being still popular as before without noting that the number of slots available has increased dramatically as well.

Only time will tell if the trend (ratio of applications to slots available) goes down like 1996-2000.

 

[@JackShephard]

The "peak" time for med school was 1995-1996 (my years). Something like 46000 applications for 15000-16000 slots.

It tank during the internet boom from 1996-2000.

It has risen slowly again. But still 48000 application finally surpassed 1995-1996 class. But there are around 20000 slots now. So getting into med school is actually easier today than 18-19 years ago

I suspect it to continue being easier as the best and brightest move away from medicine.

You cannot quantify medicine being still popular as before without noting that the number of slots available has increased dramatically as well.

Only time will tell if the trend (ratio of applications to slots available) goes down like 1996-2000.

Yes. But we are ahead of the curve.

Until the major cuts are made and tuition continues to increase, then people will be able to put 2 and 2 together (borrow 400k and earn very little over 10 years to earn < 200k?). But the salary #'s that are reported all over the internet need to drop, and the reports lag 1-2 years behind the reality.

In other words, I'd expect the competitiveness to change in 5 years.

It's a cycle though, because they will increase $ when it gets bad enough. It appears medicine may be in a down cycle.

 

[Laryngophed]

The "peak" time for med school was 1995-1996 (my years). Something like 46000 applications for 15000-16000 slots.

It tank during the internet boom from 1996-2000.

It has risen slowly again. But still 48000 application finally surpassed 1995-1996 class. But there are around 20000 slots now. So getting into med school is actually easier today than 18-19 years ago

I suspect it to continue being easier as the best and brightest move away from medicine.

You cannot quantify medicine being still popular as before without noting that the number of slots available has increased dramatically as well.

Only time will tell if the trend (ratio of applications to slots available) goes down like 1996-2000.

The number of applicants per seat isn't the only measure of competition. I would guess that the average MCAT score for a matriculant today is higher than it was in 1995-1996. I think GPA is too tight of a range for there to have been much movement there. I would also suspect that the extracurricular stuff required today is greater than it was then. This is anecdotal from talking to some ad com people at my school, but hey my opinion and $0.49 will buy you a stamp.

 

[aneftp]

The number of applicants per seat isn't the only measure of competition. I would guess that the average MCAT score for a matriculant today is higher than it was in 1995-1996. I think GPA is too tight of a range for there to have been much movement there. I would also suspect that the extracurricular stuff required today is greater than it was then. This is anecdotal from talking to some ad com people at my school, but hey my opinion and $0.49 will buy you a stamp.

I still believe the number of applicants per seat is still the BEST indication of how tough it is to get into school. It shows how much demand and competitiveness there is.

The "easiest" years to get into med school was around 1989. Look at history.

I know AAMC data like the back of my head. But 27-28K applicants for 15K slots during those years. 1989 years. Here's a graph a found. You really think the best and brightest were going into medicine at that time?

https://www.aamc.org/download/153708/data/

Here's a link saying 48000 applications for 20000 med school slots

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/358410/20131024.html

The best and brightest won't continue to go into medicine if the rewards aren't there. Maybe we are heading towards a downward trend soon. It's a lot of time and debt to take on when you can get a 9-5 job easily making $100K with 4 year REAL degree. And much more with other advanced degree.

 

[bronx43]

I still believe the number of applicants per seat is still the BEST indication of how tough it is to get into school. It shows how much demand and competitiveness there is.

The "easiest" years to get into med school was around 1989. Look at history.

I know AAMC data like the back of my head. But 27-28K applicants for 15K slots during those years. 1989 years. Here's a graph a found. You really think the best and brightest were going into medicine at that time?

https://www.aamc.org/download/153708/data/

Here's a link saying 48000 applications for 20000 med school slots

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/358410/20131024.html

The best and brightest won't continue to go into medicine if the rewards aren't there. Maybe we are heading towards a downward trend soon. It's a lot of time and debt to take on when you can get a 9-5 job easily making $100K with 4 year REAL degree. And much more with other advanced degree.

What other advanced degree? There aren't that many better options than medicine even if MDs made 'only' $200k.

 

[aneftp]

What other advanced degree? There aren't that many better options than medicine even if MDs made 'only' $200k.

Medicine isn't where the real money is. We all know that. Look at opportunity costs while you are 30 years old and finishing up residency.

MBA (from a real program). Law degree (from a real program) all start at least $200K and up.

 

[tima]

I thought recent graduates should expect to start around 300k. Isn't 250k at the lower end?

 

[bronx43]

Medicine isn't where the real money is. We all know that. Look at opportunity costs while you are 30 years old and finishing up residency.

MBA (from a real program). Law degree (from a real program) all start at least $200K and up.

MBA from a "real" program costs you around $150k when you factor everything in. Only management consulting (iffy) and banking offer real return on your investment, and you are in NO way guaranteed a job in either of those industries - especially banking. Even if you do, I bet you'll hate your life 1000x more as an investment banker than you will as an anesthesiologist even if you were making half as the anesthesiologist. Most of my buddies were or are in high finance, and they get DESTROYED while doing meaningless work. You want to spend 100 hours a week coming up with pitch books that will never materialize into actual transactions? You want to sit in front of Microsoft Excel all day crunching numbers? And don't kid yourself thinking that you can make it to MD (that's managing director, not medical doctor for you business illiterate folks) and make 7 figures. About 1/50 make it to that position, and at that point you're a salesman. You either make rain or you get the boot. I am willing to bet not many people in medicine has those skills.
Management consulting isn't worth your time. I don't want to waste my time even discussing it, tbh.

No offense, but whenever I see someone talking about MBAs or bankers like it's some great career, it confirms that they don't actually know anyone who is a high financier.

 

[aneftp]

I thought recent graduates should expect to start around 300k. Isn't 250k at the lower end?

Don't focus on money.

Focus on number of hours worked, any benefits and loca

MBA from a "real" program costs you around $150k when you factor everything in. Only management consulting (iffy) and banking offer real return on your investment, and you are in NO way guaranteed a job in either of those industries - especially banking. Even if you do, I bet you'll hate your life 1000x more as an investment banker than you will as an anesthesiologist even if you were making half as the anesthesiologist. Most of my buddies were or are in high finance, and they get DESTROYED while doing meaningless work. You want to spend 100 hours a week coming up with pitch books that will never materialize into actual transactions? You want to sit in front of Microsoft Excel all day crunching numbers? And don't kid yourself thinking that you can make it to MD (that's managing director, not medical doctor for you business illiterate folks) and make 7 figures. About 1/50 make it to that position, and at that point you're a salesman. You either make rain or you get the boot. I am willing to bet not many people in medicine has those skills.
Management consulting isn't worth your time. I don't want to waste my time even discussing it, tbh.

I agree. Those jobs aren't for everyone. But Medicine isn't for everyone either. I just happen to know someone from Harvard law school He turned down a 200K starting job fresh out of school. These are the starting offers. He decided to do his own thing out west. Runs a successful consulting business now. My cousin is in banking over seas in Asia these days. Yes it's a tough job but it pays.

The point I was making is the best and brightest have other options besides medicine. Some regular joes who are thinking about med school with out any further ambition may just decide to go out in the work force and make good but not great money. And you will see the trend towards medical school go downwards again.

 

[@JackShephard]

Don't focus on money.

Focus on number of hours worked, any benefits and loca


I agree. Those jobs aren't for everyone. But Medicine isn't for everyone either. I just happen to know someone from Harvard law school He turned down a 200K starting job fresh out of school. These are the starting offers. He decided to do his own thing out west. Runs a successful consulting business now. My cousin is in banking over seas in Asia these days. Yes it's a tough job but it pays.

The point I was making is the best and brightest have other options besides medicine. Some regular joes who are thinking about med school with out any further ambition may just decide to go out in the work force and make good but not great money. And you will see the trend towards medical school go downwards again.

lol, yeah. Harvard law students will earn good coin.

 

[Baller MD]

Medicine isn't where the real money is. We all know that. Look at opportunity costs while you are 30 years old and finishing up residency.

MBA (from a real program). Law degree (from a real program) all start at least $200K and up.

Yeah because we all know nerds - which is most of the medical student body - are totally gonna be charismatic enough to make it in those fields.

 

[bronx43]

Don't focus on money.

Focus on number of hours worked, any benefits and loca


I agree. Those jobs aren't for everyone. But Medicine isn't for everyone either. I just happen to know someone from Harvard law school He turned down a 200K starting job fresh out of school. These are the starting offers. He decided to do his own thing out west. Runs a successful consulting business now. My cousin is in banking over seas in Asia these days. Yes it's a tough job but it pays.

The point I was making is the best and brightest have other options besides medicine. Some regular joes who are thinking about med school with out any further ambition may just decide to go out in the work force and make good but not great money. And you will see the trend towards medical school go downwards again.

As long as medicine pays comfortably in the six figures, the quality of applicants will not be a big problem, and you will not see any real negative impact on the delivery of health care. It's a zero sum game. So, you say the guy that could have been a physician now chooses to become a banker or a corporate lawyer. Ok. What is that corporate lawyer/banker going to do? Go pick trash? No, he'll probably go be a physician. If not a physician, then maybe be a leading engineer. Then what is the engineer gonna do? You get the point.

 

[bronx43]

Yeah because we all know nerds - which is most of the medical student body - are totally gonna be charismatic enough to make it in those fields.

It actually depends on HOW nerdy/smart you are. The upper echelon of nerds with elite IQs but zero social skills will BANK at hedge funds and sh** on the investment bankers, who are lower tier "sell side." But, not many medical school nerds are elite nerds, lol. Most buy side guys aren't your average charismatic prom king. And let's be honest, who the hell actually wants to be sell side?

 

[BLADEMDA]

If you have an "A" average from a top 50 University and an Engineering degree the starting pay should be over $80K and over $100 by age 25. "Nerds" with A averages from good schools "make bank."

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

These reported numbers are low for some of the fields.

 

[@JackShephard]

If you have an "A" average from a top 50 University and an Engineering degree the starting pay should be over $80K and over $100 by age 25. "Nerds" with A averages from good schools "make bank."

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

These reported numbers are low for some of the fields.

Yeah, seems like you can earn 120k+ with some undergrad degrees and that's without 8 years in med school / residency. If tuition continues to rise at the same pace, students will be borrowing 300k and putting income on hold for a long time to earn only 50-70k more annually. If you factor in that you need to pay off the 300k with after tax dollars, you're looking at earning another 500-700k to pay that off with interest. I'm not seeing how you can add up all the missed years in income + 500-700k debt payments to earn 50-70k more. That's around 20 years to break even, maybe longer. Not to mention 8 years earning 100k without debt is much nicer than med school + residency.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Yeah, seems like you can earn 120k+ with some undergrad degrees and that's without 8 years in med school / residency. If tuition continues to rise at the same pace, students will be borrowing 300k and putting income on hold for a long time to earn only 50-70k more annually. If you factor in that you need to pay off the 300k with after tax dollars, you're looking at earning another 500-700k to pay that off with interest. I'm not seeing how you can add up all the missed years in income + 500-700k debt payments to earn 50-70k more. That's around 20 years to break even, maybe longer. Not to mention 8 years earning 100k without debt is much nicer than med school + residency.

Agreed. These threads typically turn into an argument on what other careers make more than medicine (okay, maybe that's more in pre-allo). For many of us, myself included, medicine is probably the path that will lead to the most money in the long term. However, in my opinion, certain careers don't necessarily need to pay more to attract students away from medicine. If compensation keeps dropping, how many students will choose to put themselves through medical training for 1 million more in career earnings? 500k? 250k? At a certain point, you may start to see more people going for the lower paying, less stresful/time consuming career paths. Of course, this doesn't take into account those that simply can't see themselves being happy doing anything other than medicine. Just my opinion.

 

[@JackShephard]

Agreed. These threads typically turn into an argument on what other careers make more than medicine (okay, maybe that's more in pre-allo). For many of us, myself included, medicine is probably the path that will lead to the most money in the long term. However, in my opinion, certain careers don't necessarily need to pay more to attract students away from medicine. If compensation keeps dropping, how many students will choose to put themselves through medical training for 1 million more in career earnings? 500k? 250k? At a certain point, you may start to see more people going for the lower paying, less stresful/time consuming career paths. Of course, this doesn't take into account those that simply can't see themselves being happy doing anything other than medicine. Just my opinion.

Yeah.

How many physicians can say during their decade of training they worked 45 or so hours per week? Many of the careers on that WSJ article can do that.

I think physicians will be fine in the long run. But there could be a rough 5-10 years sometime soon.