I was hit on by the physician I shadowed.

[claduva94]

Already did but reposted here:



Didn't quote atomi's posts tho but it's in the first page.

How did I miss that? Well as a naive male I think that getting asked out by someone ONCE is acceptable (obviously there are exceptions. Some classify OPs situation as this. Some don't). But persistent advances or excessively forward advances are where I would draw the line. I just think it is unreasonable to villains any guy who is interested in a girl and politely asks her out.

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[jl lin]

One thing is clear. People have to be very careful with approaching or touching people. Even years ago we were taught this in nursing school. It's also reinforced when we rotated through didactic and clinical psych. Some people are extremely sensitive when it comes to their personal space. You don't know what the other person has been through or just how they will react. Autistic children and people are like this too.

So, say for example, you come from a loving, huge family/culture, you have to be OK with realizing that won't go over with a lot of other people for a number of possible, different reasons.

In general, I will say that it is better to take the careful approach with people, whether they are pts/cts or whether they are people with whom you interact within the workplace or school or a volunteer setting.

My main point was that how to react, at least to me, depends on the situation. I am the kind of person that believes the reaction should fit the action; and I suppose there is varying interpretations on that, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Affiche]

No. I am certain that most women have had manifold experiences with this sort of thing. Not everything requires an extreme reaction. As I have repeatedly said, it is a situational issue as to how to respond. Example a simple hair sniff versus someone touching or grabbing my breast. The latter would end up causing some pain for the perpetrator.

Sure you do. If you have been hit on in a relatively innocent manner, you have had to have some experience with this. It all doesn't require an extreme response. That's all I have been saying, period.

It's your definition of an "extreme response" that we disagree with. You seem to be stating that any response beyond ignoring the advances is extreme or uncalled for, and it's not.

I don't think it is the age that is the problem for Law2Doc. Sure it was useful information but not necessarily necessary. But the with from "He asked if I was free this weekend" to "He touched me when it wasn't necessary and asked me back to his place" are different by at least an order of magnitude and is very essential for our judgement of what is going on here.

I disagree. She stated that he was asking her out this weekend and when she was accused of misunderstanding, she clarified that it was to come to his place and that he had been touching her as well. That isn't a change in story, that's clarification after being accused of misinterpretation. And I think the age difference is relevant. Call it ageism if you want, but some dude hitting on me that's old enough to be my father creeps me out and is even more unwanted than some guy that's in my age group.

 

[jl lin]

It's your definition of an "extreme response" that we disagree with. You seem to be stating that any response beyond ignoring the advances is extreme or uncalled for, and it's not.

No. That is not what I said. I never said ignore. There are various ways to communicate, and the degree of the response will be completely dependent upon the particulars. That is what I have shared from the outset.

I haven't seen here where people are open to sexual harassment or the like. But if something makes a person uncomfortable, they have to take ownership in how to handle it. It may not be their "fault," but it has become their problem, if you will. So, once more, some situations will require a more severe response while others may not.

I don't treat every situation in life with people the same necessarily. There are nuances, variations--there is a sense of intuition and judgment required.

Certainly if I were the OP and the doc she was shadowing asked me what I was doing later and hinted that he wanted to get together, I would ask outrightly, for clarification. That is to say, I would say, "What do you mean? Are you referring to further shadowing? Are there some particular cases which you think I would find interesting?" I'd put it back on to him.

For the dude that wanted strand of hair, well, honestly, I would have told him "No." clearly, in one way or another, even if he was drunk or had some psychiatric disturbance. So, what's the big deal with giving him a piece of my hair? He is asking me to participate in his psychosis, which could lead to being pulled in even further. Cut it off then and there, especially since the request is odd enough. Even with psych people--especially with psych patients, there are boundaries that are to be set. You can't be overridden by fear, but you can't be foolish either. It's in the delivery though. It's firm but not hateful or totally cold.

As for me, this particular thread has run it's course.

 

[mehc012]

The opposite sucks, too. Mistaking flirtation for friendliness and missing an opportunity.



This is a strange sentiment to me. How does anyone ask anyone out if everyone is offended by just being asked out?

Yeah, my heart bleeds for you missing the occasional opportunity to get laid. That must be the worst.

 

[Doudline]

The sexism in this thread is quite something.

On one side there are the red pill aficionados implying that all women are slutty, that they should give clearer signals if they don't want to be harassed, etc.
On the other side there are the third wave feminists who are perpetually scared of us animal-like men unable to control ourselves, who completely void their discourse of the most minute possibility of women also hitting on men, or harassing men, or being violent/abusive etc, implying that it's impossible for men to understand women's sensibilities (but not the contrary, God forbid), etc.

All very entertaining.

 

[Gandyy]

The sexism in this thread is quite something.

On one side there are the red pill aficionados implying that all women are slutty, that they should give clearer signals if they don't want to be harassed, etc.
On the other side there are the third wave feminists who are perpetually scared of us animal-like men unable to control ourselves, who completely void their discourse of the most minute possibility of women also hitting on men, or harassing men, or being violent/abusive etc, implying that it's impossible for men to understand women's sensibilities (but not the contrary, God forbid), etc.

All very entertaining.

As I've been saying, this thread is insane.

 

[AlfonsTheGuru]

I don't like this thread. I also regret my participation.

 

[Cotterpin]

The sexism in this thread is quite something.

On one side there are the red pill aficionados implying that all women are slutty, that they should give clearer signals if they don't want to be harassed, etc.
On the other side there are the third wave feminists who are perpetually scared of us animal-like men unable to control ourselves, who completely void their discourse of the most minute possibility of women also hitting on men, or harassing men, or being violent/abusive etc, implying that it's impossible for men to understand women's sensibilities (but not the contrary, God forbid), etc.

All very entertaining.

Oh, women do sometimes hit on men in very crazily inappropriate ways! I work with someone who does it all the time and the men are certainly not shy about just being like "WTF, put it away!" She cries a lot.

But that's not really the same thing as the kind of constant, low-level pestering that a lot of women are on the receiving end of. That's a trickier proposition, how to deal with it tactfully, how to manage your own exhaustion with it, etc.

So this brings up an interesting question. How do you men handle rejecting all of the unwanted advances from women in the workplace?

 

[Law2Doc]

It's your definition of an "extreme response" that we disagree with. You seem to be stating that any response beyond ignoring the advances is extreme or uncalled for, and it's not.

I disagree. She stated that he was asking her out this weekend and when she was accused of misunderstanding, she clarified that it was to come to his place and that he had been touching her as well. That isn't a change in story, that's clarification after being accused of misinterpretation. And I think the age difference is relevant. Call it ageism if you want, but some dude hitting on me that's old enough to be my father creeps me out and is even more unwanted than some guy that's in my age group.

Not a clarification. Sorry. It just isn't. There was no mention of coming to his house, no touching in the first post. This was all new story line. Objectively there's a HUGE subsequent change in story from the first post to the second, which moved from casual to predatory.

And that defeated the value of the thread IMHO because you could certainly have an interesting debate about ethics and asking someone out who is shadowing you but I think we all agree that unconsented touching and asking someone back to your place in this situation shouldn't happen. There's just nothing to debate here -- we all agree.

Which basically forces you guys who want to continue the discussion of predators (despite everyone on here agreeing with you that that's bad) to argue on tangents-- " is this even a change in story", "is it chauvinistic to dismiss the OP as a troll for changing the story", and so on. And all because nobody on here backs predatory acts and there's really nothing to debate within that second post.

IMHO OP is a troll who accidentally started an interesting thread and then ruined it by making it over the top. Much like her last thread on stripping in med school was over the top.

I won't go into sock puppets (monicker they were called above), but that's a use of multiple logins to try to bolster a trolls position, and I'm suspicious there's some of that going on here too.

 

[mehc012]

For the dude that wanted strand of hair, well, honestly, I would have told him "No." clearly, in one way or another, even if he was drunk or had some psychiatric disturbance. So, what's the big deal with giving him a piece of my hair? He is asking me to participate in his psychosis, which could lead to being pulled in even further. Cut it off then and there, especially since the request is odd enough. Even with psych people--especially with psych patients, there are boundaries that are to be set. You can't be overridden by fear, but you can't be foolish either. It's in the delivery though. It's firm but not hateful or totally cold.

No, you wouldn't have. Or if you had, you'd have been a frakking idiot. That particular story was not intended to have anything to do with this thread, it was just a funny story that the other series of posts had reminded me of. But this wasn't just some drunken psych patient in a controlled setting. This was, essentially, 'unpredictable drunk/crazy guy' and 'young teen girl', with option such as 'leave', 'call the police', 'call your family', etc. all unavailable, no matter what future actions occurred. Now, he seemed not intentionally malicious, just unaware of boundaries and inconsistent when it came to listening to 'no's, and there were some friendly station workers around who kept an eye out (because, they said, he caused problems)...so it was a funny story instead of a scary one. But if handing him a hair meant he wouldn't grab for it himself? Yeah, I gave it to him. And not because I didn't want to hurt his feelings, or be 'hateful' or 'cold' to him. It wasn't because I was weak or unable to set boundaries (though admittedly I was worse at it as a teen than I am now). It's because he clearly wasn't going away no matter what I said/did, and I wanted to focus my efforts on boundaries like "do not touch me" and "I am not going anywhere with you".

Now again, this story is irrelevant to the discussion as a whole, but right now it's serving as an excellent example of how ridiculous you sound when you act as though the only difficulties people are facing in these scenarios is that they aren't as smart/man-loving/emotionally-whatever as you are.

 

[ZedsDed]

How do you men handle rejecting all of the unwanted advances from women in the workplace?

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say this probably isn't a major problem for most men.

 

[Cotterpin]

I don't think a story about a man touching your back and then asking you to come back to his place is "over the top." That's a normal story.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say this probably isn't a major problem for most men.

But it would be so reverse sexist for me to not acknowledge these cases. Lol.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
So this brings up an interesting question. How do you men handle rejecting all of the unwanted advances from women in the workplace?

It's torture.

 

[Cotterpin]

It's torture.

But how do you respond?

 

[mehc012]

Not a clarification. Sorry. It just isn't. There was no mention of coming to his house, no touching in the first post. This was all new story line. Objectively there's a HUGE subsequent change in story from the first post to the second, which moved from casual to predatory.

See, I disagree that the second iteration is predatory. It's...par for the course. That's normal, which in my book makes it casual. You keep acting like everyone here is on board with unconsented touching not being OK, but we have people saying it's silly that people are bothered by dudes flirting/touching at work or even sniffing hair without asking...and if everyone is so onboard with unconsented touching being an issue, why is it so gorram common?

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think a story about a man touching your back and then asking you to come back to his place is "over the top." That's a normal story.

I think you already agreed to disagree with me on this.

It's really not a normal story if you aren't at a bar at last call, though. It changes OPs story pretty drastically from something casual to something actionable.

 

[Gandyy]

It's torture.

Haha, sorry no offense. I had to laugh. There are so many women at your workplace that come at you in droves that its just pure torture for you?

Listen, this could even be true, but it just sounds hilarious. Like off some sitcom or something.

 

[arc5005]

Can I chime in here as a gay man and from a male's perspective that I've also noticed that men tend to be much more perverse. I believe what the women in this thread have gone through, as I have experienced much of the same from men, as a man. It's amazing what guys think they can get away with. The things I have had whispered in my ear, the random butt grabs, and the "it's just a hookup, dude" attitude, makes me uncomfortable, yet somehow all these guys think it's okay and they get away with it. It's also not much different in the gay community in terms of older guys, which we call "daddies" trying to get with younger gay men in their 20s. I'm not surprised by a guy asking a chick to "come over for the weekend," or "asking for a piece of hair," or unwanted touching, because all of this seems like a weekly to everyday occurrence to me.

 

[ZedsDed]

Haha, sorry no offense. I had to laugh. There are so many women at your workplace that come at you in droves that its just pure torture for you?

Listen, this could even be true, but it just sounds hilarious. Like off some sitcom or something.

He's being sarcastic

I get it, sarcasm is hard to detect on the inter webs for me as well

 

[Lawpy]

I don't like this thread.

All in favor of shutting this thread down, raise your hand (or like my post or agree etc.)

 

[Cotterpin]

I think you already agreed to disagree with me on this.

It's really not a normal story if you aren't at a bar at last call, though. It changes OPs story pretty drastically from something casual to something actionable.

Women don't take action on these things all the time. Probably in large part because we don't want to deal with some dude like you insisting that we're making it all up. And because if we took action on every one of these instances, we'd be in court all the damn time.

But you're right. I agreed to stop calling you out on this. So I will stop.

 

[Law2Doc]

But how do you respond?

"Flattered, but I'm going to have to pass".
"No thank you"
"I don't think that's a good idea".

There are lots of ways to say the same thing.

 

[Gandyy]

He's being sarcastic

I get it, sarcasm is hard to detect on the inter webs for me as well

ahhhhhhhh

 

[ZedsDed]

All in favor of shutting this thread down, raise your hand (or like my post or agree etc.)

There is no reason to, as far as I can tell. Only violations of TOS warrant that.

 

[Cotterpin]

"Flattered, but I'm going to have to pass".
"No thank you"
"I don't think that's a good idea".

There are lots of ways to say the same thing.

Right. That's what we do.

So what do you do when she gets really upset that you rejected her and it starts affecting your work?

 

[Cotterpin]

All in favor of shutting this thread down, raise your hand (or like my post or agree etc.)

You don't have to participate in or read threads that you don't like. Just . . . stop following it.

 

[Gandyy]

There is no reason to, as far as I can tell. Only violations of TOS warrant that.

What about making blanket statements such as "All men are dogs". I figured that would count lol

 

[mehc012]

Re #3 it's not your workplace when you are shadowing.
Re#4 the change of story was that it was initially a doctor of indeterminate age casually asking OP if she was free on the weekend. In the subsequent post this morphed into an old guy touching her and asking her back to his home. That's about as drastic a change as it gets. Everyones trolldar should go off big time. Went from something possibly unprofessional to something actionable. You really should see this as a drastic shift in story, and it's scary if you don't.

The old guy thing is annoying, sure...even OP questioned whether she would have been as disturbed had the guy been young and hot.

But, really, the home (or at least a bar or something) thing was implied when she called it 'hitting on' her, and it's hardly surprising that there had been indications of interest expressed prior to that.

You think the line is crossed when the first subtle cues come out? It's not. It can't be, or as people keep saying, we'd be in court for our entire natural born lives. Things come to a head in their own ways, when you reach a point where you can't not respond, such as an egregious touching incident (actual groping, etc) or lewd comment, or finally blatantly expressing interest in you. Prior to that, any response can be dismissed with "you are overblowing things, I am not interested in you, that's just how I..." and does nothing but hurt your own standing. OP started the story with what it is that actually crossed the line, and forced her to have a response, not all the small things leading up to that. Maybe in the court of law you have the luxury of seeing a touch on the small of the back as a hard boundary, but in the real world it doesn't play that way, and it's not given the same status that you seem to keep ascribing to it, and which justifies your claim that the story jumped up in severity between the OP and later posts.

 

[Cotterpin]

What about making blanket statements such as "All men are dogs". I figured that would count lol

Or statements about stuff like women being unable to see objective truth and seeing stuff in the shadows. Or even that stuff in the first couple of pages about women in their 20's being on the **** carousel?

 

[Gandyy]

Or statements about stuff like women being unable to see objective truth and seeing stuff in the shadows. Or even that stuff in the first couple of pages about women in their 20's being on the **** carousel?

lol, they all qualify I'd say

 

[mehc012]

What about making blanket statements such as "All men are dogs". I figured that would count lol

This was one poster who was immediately shut down by everyone else in the thread. If that's all it took to lock a thread, I could jump into any one I didn't like, say one inflammatory thing, and get them locked.

 

[Lawpy]

There is no reason to, as far as I can tell. Only violations of TOS warrant that.

Well for one, the thread diverged well past the original topic. For two, the thread is on fire.

You don't have to participate in or read threads that you don't like. Just . . . stop following it.

Nah. I'm just a messenger for the silent majority/lurkers. I personally want this thread to continue... preferably in the SP Forums

 

[Gandyy]

This was one poster who was immediately shut down by everyone else in the thread. If that's all it took to lock a thread, I could jump into any one I didn't like, say one inflammatory thing, and get them locked.

Thats happened before on multiple threads on SDN tho.

 

[arc5005]

But how do you respond?

"Flattered, but I'm going to have to pass".
"No thank you"
"I don't think that's a good idea".

There are lots of ways to say the same thing.

I think when guys get rejected the first time, they take it as a challenge. Like "Oh he/she is just playing hard to get. I'm going to give it a little time, then come at them even harder next time. I'm going to erect my masculinity as an alpha male and show that I'm persistent and I'm going to have you."

Who has come across these types of guys? *raises hand* I have... pretty often.

 

[mehc012]

Or statements about stuff like women being unable to see objective truth and seeing stuff in the shadows. Or even that stuff in the first couple of pages about women in their 20's being on the **** carousel?

If we lock it for statements like that, we'll never actually discuss the issues. There's a difference between not liking someone's opinion and it being against TOS.
The last one, yeah, is an issue...but again it was a one-off.

 

[mehc012]

Thats happened before on multiple threads on SDN tho.

a) Not really that I've seen
b) Just because it did, doesn't mean it should.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

nvm

Keep it moving

 

[ZedsDed]

You don't have to participate in or read threads that you don't like. Just . . . stop following it.

I think the conversation is still fairly interesting.

That and I'm waiting for Saba to come back and rant about how feminism arose from the sexual failure of promiscuous 20th century women

 

[Gandyy]

I think the conversation is still fairly interesting.

That and I'm waiting for Saba to come back and rant about how feminism arose from the sexual failure of promiscuous 20th century women

Edit: SabaChampion is a Sitcom. Have you seen his take on Caribbean schools?

 

[Cotterpin]

Nah. I'm just a messenger for the silent majority/lurkers. I personally want this thread to continue... preferably in the SP Forums

The lurkers don't have to read it either!

If it goes into the SP forums, I won't follow. That's a bridge too far.

 

[Law2Doc]

Right. That's what we do.

So what do you do when she gets really upset that you rejected her and it starts affecting your work?

If it's a work related matter and it persists, that's what HR is for. Not really for the initial "are you free this weekend" inquiry, but if someone starts groping you or won't stop asking you out despite you saying no, or says lets go back to my place, or if there's a quid pro quo offered or if it's a supervisor at your job, and it makes you uncomfortable, you report it.

But again HR is not relevant for shadowing, you don't work there.

 

[mehc012]

The lurkers don't have to read it either!

If it goes into the SP forums, I won't follow. That's a bridge too far.

What are SP forums?

I think when guys get rejected the first time, they take it as a challenge. Like "Oh he/she is just playing hard to get. I'm going to give it a little time, then come at them even harder next time. I'm going to erect my masculinity as an alpha male and show that I'm persistent and I'm going to have you."

Who has come across these types of guys? *raises hand* I have... pretty often.

There are definitely women like this, too, though...sometimes it seems more that they think that they can be aggressive because they're women, and therefore nonthreatening or something...but similar behavior. No need to limit things just to men.

 

[Cotterpin]

If it's a work related matter and it persists, that's what HR is for. Not really for the initial "are you free this weekend" inquiry, but if someone starts groping you or won't stop asking you out despite you saying no, or says lets go back to my place, or if there's a quid pro quo offered or if it's a supervisor at your job, and it makes you uncomfortable, you report it.

But again HR is not relevant for shadowing, you don't work there.

It's funny, because that's pretty much the same course of action I came up with like 100 pages ago.

Whyyyyyyy do you keep pointing out that shadowing isn't work? I'm asking you about what you do at work.

 

[ZedsDed]

What are SP forums?

There are definitely women like this, too, though...sometimes it seems more that they think that they can be aggressive because they're women, and therefore nonthreatening or something...but similar behavior. No need to limit things just to men.

Sometimes they're a good time:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/heterosexuality.1144439/
Other times, uh, less so:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/jihadist-lead-to-u-s-islam-is-coming.1027425/

 

[mehc012]

If it's a work related matter and it persists, that's what HR is for. Not really for the initial "are you free this weekend" inquiry, but if someone starts groping you or won't stop asking you out despite you saying no, or says lets go back to my place, or if there's a quid pro quo offered or if it's a supervisor at your job, and it makes you uncomfortable, you report it.

But again HR is not relevant for shadowing, you don't work there.

Please, taking things to HR is the worst idea, ever. That's like actually taking someone to court...you're pretty much guaranteed bad results no matter the outcome.

And the idea that shadowing isn't some kind of mentoring relationship is bananas. You're literally taking someone in hand to show them your career, generally either to guide their own career decisions or to help them along (app hours, LOR...which some people need for DO even if shadowing lOrs are dumb).

 

[arc5005]

There are definitely women like this, too, though...sometimes it seems more that they think that they can be aggressive because they're women, and therefore nonthreatening or something...but similar behavior. No need to limit things just to men.

I think women acting this way is more rare. However, maybe I'm wrong since my only flirtation experiences are with men.

 

[DubVille]

2 things:
- Apparently some people in this thread live in a world where smelling someone's hair is common and not horrifying. If this happened to me or anyone I know, I would think said hair smeller is a serial killer.
- Agree story is high on ick factor, but seems trollish. Also if OP works or considered working in adult industry, I feel they would be dealing with this frequently and not need to post about it. This increases troll factor.

 

[Lawpy]

The lurkers don't have to read it either!

If it goes into the SP forums, I won't follow. That's a bridge too far.

The lurkers and members here insist in keeping preallo clutter free (and reduce the forum's bad reputation), and wish to move all the political and social controversy threads to the Lounge/sociopolitical forums.

 

[ZedsDed]

I think women acting this way is more rare. However, maybe I'm wrong since my only flirtation experiences are with men.

As someone who has flirted/been flirted with by both, I can confidently it is definitely more skewed in one direction.