In Support of Caribbean Students

[Member 331305]

Judgmental and overly sure of yourself much? We don't know what factors played into their not matching. With this 90% + match rate touted for US allo grads, I'd expect someone coming out of Harvard to match due to pedigree and their making look schools look good by entering their residency programs. Maybe not derm or plastics or ortho but just about anything else. I don't want to say any more (inside info) but some of the results were shocking at schools this year.

Your reasoning is flawed. Harvard is not to blame for students who don't match. The fault lies entirely with the med student. What do you expect happens when an over-confident Harvard med student ranks only 5 top-tier ortho programs? Ya don't match.

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[gumdrops]

I also have inside sources to match info for a US MD school and in the past 5 or so years 9 times out of 10 when a student hasn't matched its been primarily their fault (e.g., not ranking enough programs, only applying to programs which are a reach, applying to competitive fields that are a huge reach for their stats, etc.). Also, just because you come from a name brand school doesn't mean your automatically guaranteed residency spot.

Dude, not to be terribly rude but I've seen your MDApps. We're both reapplicants and should have learned better than anyone else that sometimes this stuff does not work out in your favor for reasons you can't control. I'm not doubting that there could have been hubris or miscalculation on people's part to not match out of a top ten US allo school. Yet you can't deny that it's shocking that people wouldn't match into something that's as relatively uncompetitive as ob/gyn out of a top ten school.

When you go to a top school, you make the residency program look better if you attend. That's where pedigree plays in. I've heard this from too many people who've been through the residency process to know that yes, just as Caribbean grads have to prove themselves that much more, low-to-mid-tier US allo grads have to work that much harder to prove themselves to the big coastal academic programs. The people attending those medical schools have a big advantage from the onset.

You're right for the average US applicant. We're talking about people who had the odds stacked in their favor more than anyone else in this process and yet stuff still didn't work out. That's evidence for how competitive this process is getting.

 

[Xenoblade]

Shine I did and apparently it did the trick.

OMG!!! I cracked up so badly when I read this. You just proved the point that gumdrops and I were trying to make about your hubris.

You are such a hoot!

I'm going to like your post because it is so incredibly funny.

I cannot believe you did what you just did. How embarrassing.

 

[WillburCobb]

Dude, not to be terribly rude but I've seen your MDApps. We're both reapplicants and should have learned better than anyone else that sometimes this stuff does not work out in your favor for reasons you can't control. I'm not doubting that there could have been hubris or miscalculation on people's part to not match out of a top ten US allo school. Yet you can't deny that it's shocking that people wouldn't match into something that's as relatively uncompetitive as ob/gyn out of a top ten school.

When you go to a top school, you make the residency program look better if you attend. That's where pedigree plays in. I've heard this from too many people who've been through the residency process to know that yes, just as Caribbean grads have to prove themselves that much more, low-to-mid-tier US allo grads have to work that much harder to prove themselves to the big coastal academic programs. The people attending those medical schools have a big advantage from the onset.

You're right for the average US applicant. We're talking about people who had the odds stacked in their favor more than anyone else in this process and yet stuff still didn't work out. That's evidence for how competitive this process is getting.

See @Member 331305 's post. Even aiming for OB, IM, etc. you can screw yourself over if you think that riding on your laurels will get you a residency just because you went to Harvard. You need to be realistic as to how competitive you are and apply and rank accordingly. Also, not sure what my MDApps has to do with this...

 

[Member 331305]

...When you go to a top school, you make the residency program look better if you attend. That's where pedigree plays in. I've heard this from too many people who've been through the residency process to know that yes, just as Caribbean grads have to prove themselves that much more, low-to-mid-tier US allo grads have to work that much harder to prove themselves to the big coastal academic programs. The people attending those medical schools have a big advantage from the onset.

You're right for the average US applicant. We're talking about people who had the odds stacked in their favor more than anyone else in this process and yet stuff still didn't work out. That's evidence for how competitive this process is getting.

I don't think you fully understand that the Match is a strategy game. Stats and pedigree do "stack the odds in your favor", but a crappy rank order list will sink you regardless of your 260+ Step 1 and Harvard education.

 

[WillburCobb]

OMG!!! I cracked up so badly when I read this. You just proved the point that gumdrops and I were trying to make about your hubris.

You are such a hoot!

I'm going to like your post because it is so incredibly funny.

I cannot believe you did what you just did. How embarrassing.

So being self-confident about the fact that I've been accepted to med school, when I have in fact been accepted to med school is hubris?

 

[gumdrops]

See @Member 331305 's post. Even aiming for OB, IM, etc. you can screw yourself over if you think that riding on your laurels will get you a residency just because you went to Harvard. You need to be realistic as to how competitive you are and apply and rank accordingly. Also, not sure what my MDApps has to do with this...

You said that it's 100% someone's fault if they don't match. I'm saying that in any sort of admissions/hiring process, there is a lot of stuff out of your control. If I saw your mdapps, I'd have assumed you'd get in the first try. You may disagree but there's an element of uncertainty to everything that you cannot control. That's why it seemed ridiculous that you'd blame "100%" of the blame on someone who didn't match.

I don't think you fully understand that the Match is a strategy game. Stats and pedigree do "stack the odds in your favor", but a crappy rank order list will sink you regardless of your 260+ Step 1 and Harvard education.

I understand that your condescension was meant to be instructive so thanks for that. I fully understand that but are you telling me that IM or Ob/Gyn would require such extensive strategy if you're coming out of a top ten school with a 220+ board score? Yup, right. There are just not enough spots for the number of qualified applicants even in residency programs. Nothing is a sure bet. You can't argue with that.

 

[Member 331305]

...I understand that your condescension was meant to be instructive so thanks for that. I fully understand that but are you telling me that IM or Ob/Gyn would require such extensive strategy if you're coming out of a top ten school with a 220+ board score? Yup, right.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. Matching requires extensive strategy even if you are a Harvard grad with a 220+. Your pedigree will not guarantee you a match in IM or OB/GYN if the only places you ranked are the caliber of MGH or Brigham.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

. I fully understand that but are you telling me that IM or Ob/Gyn would require such extensive strategy if you're coming out of a top ten school with a 220+ board score? Yup, right. There are just not enough spots for the number of qualified applicants even in residency programs. Nothing is a sure bet. You can't argue with that.

Yes, with a 220 board score from "a school near Boston", you still have to strategize and you could certainly go unmatched if you don't play your cards right.

 

[Xenoblade]

So being self-confident about the fact that I've been accepted to med school, when I have in fact been accepted to med school is hubris?

Listen, you must be younger or lack worldly experiences.

You are hilarious and your arrogance will blow up in your face one day. It always catches up with you one way or another.

 

[DermViser]

Judgmental and overly sure of yourself much? We don't know what factors played into their not matching. With this 90% + match rate touted for US allo grads, I'd expect someone coming out of Harvard to match due to pedigree and their making look schools look good by entering their residency programs. Maybe not derm or plastics or ortho but just about anything else. I don't want to say any more (inside info) but some of the results were shocking at schools this year.

And you would be absolutely, 100% wrong.

 

[DermViser]

Your reasoning is flawed. Harvard is not to blame for students who don't match. The fault lies entirely with the med student. What do you expect happens when an over-confident Harvard med student ranks only 5 top-tier ortho programs? Ya don't match.

Bingo.

 

[WillburCobb]

You said that it's 100% someone's fault if they don't match. I'm saying that in any sort of admissions/hiring process, there is a lot of stuff out of your control. If I saw your mdapps, I'd have assumed you'd get in the first try. You may disagree but there's an element of uncertainty to everything that you cannot control. That's why it seemed ridiculous that you'd blame "100%" of the blame on someone who didn't match.

I said ~100%, not 100%. I'll admit that there could be other factors, but quite often that's not the case. Also, I think you're confusing my MDApps with someone else's. Anyone who would think I'd get in the first time around with my stats has no idea what's required to get into med school. I'm definitely an underdog and the reason I didn't get in the first time around is 100% my fault.

I understand that your condescension was meant to be instructive so thanks for that. I fully understand that but are you telling me that IM or Ob/Gyn would require such extensive strategy if you're coming out of a top ten school with a 220+ board score? Yup, right.

Not an extensive strategy, but a reasonable one (e.g., not just ranking 3-5 top programs in that specialty).

 

[Xenoblade]

I said ~100%, not 100%. I'll admit that there could be other factors, but quite often that's not the case. Also, I think you're confusing my MDApps with someone else's. Anyone who would think I'd get in the first time around with my stats has no idea what's required to get into med school. I'm definitely an underdog and the reason I didn't get in the first time around is 100% my fault.




Not an extensive strategy, but a reasonable one (e.g., not just ranking 3-5 top programs in that specialty).

There you go gum drops. Your victory. He inadvertently admitted defeat by conceding to your points.

 

[Member10billion]

I've never understood this.

Fired from the military = never getting another job again not even in your dreams pal. We don't care if you risked your life for the country.

Fired from anywhere else = no worries your employer probably sucked anyway.

EDIT: NVM I found out that you can only be DD if you commit a serious crime like murder or sexual assault. In that case, makes sense.

My boyfriend's sister was dishonorably discharged for not following orders. I guess it doesn't have to be a serious crime...

 

[Xenoblade]

My boyfriend's sister was dishonorably discharged for not following orders. I guess it doesn't have to be a serious crime...

Yeah. I'm so glad I didn't do military medicine. What a mess!

 

[WillburCobb]

There you go gum drops. Your victory. He inadvertently admitted defeat by conceding to your points.

?

 

[Member 331305]

There you go gum drops. Your victory. He inadvertently admitted defeat by conceding to your points.

www.reddit.com/r/cringe

 

[Xenoblade]

If that's the case then why are you absolutely screwed if it happens?

Not showing up to morning drills can get you dd because your not following orders.

I think being a fatty can get you dd too. Not sure. It is hd or dd. Point is you get discharged.

 

[Say]

Ok let's collect some of the arguments that I've read...

1) Carib MD's have poor judgement for going to Carib. Therefore they are going to be bad doctors.
Response: Why is that poor judgement? Your argument is that is costs a lot of money and is "risky", as a majority will not match. My brother is paying about 15k a semester currently, which is just a little cheaper than what I am going to pay at medical school in the US. It wasn't "risky" for him because he wanted to go into primary care, and he was sure of his ability to be able to be successful. He has been successful so far.

2) OP u avocate that ppl shud go to carib skools
Response: Please please please, read my previous posts. I'm not advocating anything other than that the matched doctors coming from the Caribbean aren't worse than the ones come from the US and shouldn't be treated so. I understand that the schools are for-profit and are taking students that don't have a chance in hell of matching. This says nothing on the students who succeed and match. Caribbean schools can produce good doctors like US MD and US DO. For the most part, I believe students should consider DO over Caribbean.

3) Carib students are stupid.
Response: This does not contribute to discussion.

 

[rain4venus]

If you've managed to screw up bad enough with the law, military, or an IA in undergrad that badly after enough time and proving you've changed that no US school will touch you, its still not a legitimate reason to attend a carib school. You still have to obtain a residency and get licenesed, and something that serious will very likely come back to haunt you.

You can still get into a US med school despite failing-out of college. Yes, its a lot of hard work but it can be done. There are people on SDN who have done this. So that's not a legit reason.

If you fail to be accepted to a US school after multiple cycles and doing the most you can to improve your chances each time, then medicine is definitely not where you belong. So that also is not a legit reason.

Yes, I can see why someone would want to go overseas to pursue medicine in these circumstances, but that doesn't change the fact that a) doing so makes someone's already questionable decision make skills even more questionable, and b) that outcome will be very, very bleak.

Yeah basically most of the situations he described are legitimate reasons to go overseas if your goal is to spend lots of money in order to go to medical school (as opposed to spending lots of money to become a doctor). Few of those people are going to make it as doctors - in the US especially - so really his whole post is just more reason to hate on Caribbean schools. Yes, you can get into med school even if you're blacklisted at US med schools, but what's the point of going to med school if you won't be able to be a doctor?

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

I want everyone to take a look at this map. Look at where the caribbean is in comparison to USA, now tell me.. Does it not look like USA took a huge dump and BAM carribean came out?. Isn't it not like that with the medical students?? and the answer is YES YES IT IS. THEY ARE ALSO ****.

LOL jk jk, i'm teasing.. this is such a stupid conversation. Some of the BEST residents i have seen are IMGS, anyone can be an amazing doctor it doesn't matter where you come from the underlying denominator is passion. If you have passion for medicine and you've been through medical school then there is no stopping you no matter where you are from. Hell i've met some graduates from africa, europe, asia everywhere.. there is no difference. So if you do go to carribean or you do go somewhere else don't feel as if AMGS are some genius students because they aren't. Maybe you had a hard time in school and you couldn't get in its not a big deal. =)

 

[DermViser]

I want everyone to take a look at this map. Look at where the caribbean is in comparison to USA, now tell me.. Does it not look like USA took a huge dump and BAM carribean came out?. Isn't it not like that with the medical students?? and the answer is YES YES IT IS. THEY ARE ALSO ****.

LOL jk jk, i'm teasing.. this is such a stupid conversation. Some of the BEST residents i have seen are IMGS, anyone can be an amazing doctor it doesn't matter where you come from the underlying denominator is passion. If you have passion for medicine and you've been through medical school then there is no stopping you no matter where you are from. Hell i've met some graduates from africa, europe, asia everywhere.. there is no difference. So if you do go to carribean or you do go somewhere else don't feel as if AMGS are some genius students because they aren't. Maybe you had a hard time in school and you couldn't get in its not a big deal. =)

And I thought abstract motivational statements and fairy tale dreams stopped after graduating high school.

 

[Member10billion]

Ok let's collect some of the arguments that I've read...

1) Carib MD's have poor judgement for going to Carib. Therefore they are going to be bad doctors.
Response: Why is that poor judgement? Your argument is that is costs a lot of money and is "risky", as a majority will not match. My brother is paying about 15k a semester currently, which is just a little cheaper than what I am going to pay at medical school in the US. It wasn't "risky" for him because he wanted to go into primary care, and he was sure of his ability to be able to be successful. He has been successful so far.

2) OP u avocate that ppl shud go to carib skools
Response: Please please please, read my previous posts. I'm not advocating anything other than that the matched doctors coming from the Caribbean aren't worse than the ones come from the US and shouldn't be treated so. I understand that the schools are for-profit and are taking students that don't have a chance in hell of matching. This says nothing on the students who succeed and match. Caribbean schools can produce good doctors like US MD and US DO. For the most part, I believe students should consider DO over Caribbean.

3) Carib students are stupid.
Response: This does not contribute to discussion.

I do not think they are bad people, bad doctors, stupid people, etc. for attending a Carib med school. My high school friend goes to a Carib med school. There is concern that, in some cases, the risks associated with entering a Carib medical school outweighs the benefits. There is not a lot of student assistance. There may be people who should not be in medical school. (One girl in my friend's class left school because she had a cocaine problem.)

Best of luck to your brother. I sincerely hope everything works out for him.

 

[Xenoblade]

Yeah basically most of the situations he described are legitimate reasons to go overseas if your goal is to spend lots of money in order to go to medical school (as opposed to spending lots of money to become a doctor). Few of those people are going to make it as doctors - in the US especially - so really his whole post is just more reason to hate on Caribbean schools. Yes, you can get into med school even if you're blacklisted at US med schools, but what's the point of going to med school if you won't be able to be a doctor?

That isn't true. You're twisting my words.

I don't thinks things like ia would block you from being a doctor. You could have a record but not guilty of anything, therefore you wouldn't have been guilty of a misdemeanor or felony and be eligible for liscensure. But medical schools wouldn't touch you.

So there are situations where that does make sense. Glad that isn't me!

 

[Member10billion]

I want everyone to take a look at this map. Look at where the caribbean is in comparison to USA, now tell me.. Does it not look like USA took a huge dump and BAM carribean came out?. Isn't it not like that with the medical students?? and the answer is YES YES IT IS. THEY ARE ALSO ****.

LOL jk jk, i'm teasing.. this is such a stupid conversation. Some of the BEST residents i have seen are IMGS, anyone can be an amazing doctor it doesn't matter where you come from the underlying denominator is passion. If you have passion for medicine and you've been through medical school then there is no stopping you no matter where you are from. Hell i've met some graduates from africa, europe, asia everywhere.. there is no difference. So if you do go to carribean or you do go somewhere else don't feel as if AMGS are some genius students because they aren't. Maybe you had a hard time in school and you couldn't get in its not a big deal. =)

This is a load of bologna

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

It's from the heart

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

And I thought abstract motivational statements and fairy tale dreams stopped after graduating high school.

Lol I just watched frozen. I'm in a good mood.

 

[DermViser]

It's from the heart

Yes, and obviously not from the cerebral cortex.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Yes, and obviously not from the cerebral cortex.

Haha I haven't been a student in awhile. I'm trying to give everyone hope.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Yes, and obviously not from the cerebral cortex.

I have seen some very good IMG residents, that was not a lie.

 

[DermViser]

Haha I haven't been a student in awhile. I'm trying to give everyone hope.

Yes, hope without thinking in reality. President Obama also ran on and gave the country hope. Look how things turned out.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Yes, hope without thinking. in reality. President Obama also ran on and gave the country hope. Look how things turned out.

what are you saying? that all IMGS are bad?

 

[Xenoblade]

Yes, hope without thinking. in reality. President Obama also ran on and gave the country hope. Look how things turned out.

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i52/5/8/7/frabz-OH-NO-HE-diINT-ec8804.jpg

 

[Xenoblade]

I'm asking why is it considered such a heinous crime to be DD if all it takes is something so minor?

iono. Not an employer or ever been enlisted/commissioned.

 

[DermViser]

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i52/5/8/7/frabz-OH-NO-HE-diINT-ec8804.jpg

 

[Xenoblade]

I remember her saying that she wanted to run against chris Christy iirc.

 

[dr zaius]

If you are a U.S. MD student and you don't match you did something wrong. You either applied to a specialty you weren't competitive for, you applied too top heavy, you had bad letters, etc. If you are self aware in terms of your numbers and apply accordingly you will match. Fact.

 

[Member10billion]

what are you saying? that all IMGS are bad?

What? Where are your inference skills?
Not all IMG are bad and not all of them are amazing! (like you have been saying) You can't survive in real life with only "passion" and "hope".

 

[DermViser]

If you are a U.S. MD student and you don't match you did something wrong. You either applied to a specialty you weren't competitive for, you applied too top heavy, you had bad letters, etc. If you are self-aware in terms of your numbers and apply accordingly you will match. Fact.

Keywords right here.

 

[Xenoblade]

Yes, hope without thinking in reality. President Obama also ran on and gave the country hope. Look how things turned out.

Wait, what is a snookie? I've never heard of that before....

Even though I referenced Jersey shore months ago...

 

[Xenoblade]

Keywords right here.

Do you think that it has to do with the god complex ppl build up? sense of entitlement?

 

[dr zaius]

Do you think that it has to do with the god complex ppl build up? sense of entitlement?

Personally I think it's similar to the mentality patients with terminal cancer get...10% alive at 5 years?? I'm going to be part of that 10%. They see statistics with a step I range of 215-275 and think, "by god, if a 215 made it my 225 will definitely work despite the average being 240!" They forget that sometimes connections play a role, or very extensive research, or some other circumstance you can't even imagine. Everyone thinks they are the exception.

 

[DermViser]

Do you think that it has to do with the god complex ppl build up? sense of entitlement?

I think it's a millenium generation thing. We're all raised to believe somehow that each of us is a "special snowflake". So no matter how much real advising we get as to the realities of matching into a competitive specialty, we always believe we will be the exception, esp. if they read about an exception making it (not realizing that they are missing a huge part of that person's application).

 

[dr zaius]

I think it's a millenium generation thing. We're all raised to believe somehow that each of us is a "special snowflake". So no matter how much real advising we get as to the realities of matching into a competitive specialty, we always believe we will be the exception, esp. if they read about an exception making it (not realizing that they are missing a huge part of that person's application).

I have been speculating about your avatar, but this post may have answered my question. Is it in reference to a special snowflake?

 

[DermViser]

I have been speculating about your avatar, but this post may have answered my question. Is it in reference to a special snowflake?

Yup. I copied it from another SDN response somewhere (to an OP who got only 1 medical school acceptance from a "low-ranked" MD school, and was wondering whether she should decline, and just try again next year to get into a higher ranked MD school). I thought the picture was very aesthetically pleasing mainly.

 

[gumdrops]

Personally I think it's similar to the mentality patients with terminal cancer get...10% alive at 5 years?? I'm going to be part of that 10%. They see statistics with a step I range of 215-275 and think, "by god, if a 215 made it my 225 will definitely work despite the average being 240!" They forget that sometimes connections play a role, or very extensive research, or some other circumstance you can't even imagine. Everyone thinks they are the exception.

Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God.

 

[WillburCobb]

Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God.

 

[dr zaius]

Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God.

And the point has been missed.

I was trying to illustrate the importance of being realistic.

 

[chenzt]

I'm asking why is it considered such a heinous crime to be DD if all it takes is something so minor?

There's probably more to such stories. One has to go through the court-martial and the whole shabang. With DD you lose your right to own firearms and vote, any governmental aids/loans and veteran benefits, government employment; it's akin to a felony conviction in civilian court. I doubt they do it often.