In Support of Caribbean Students

[TheWeeIceMan]

Truth . I think you mean *Caribbean instead of US, but I get what you are saying. But please understand that there are some Caribbean students who have landed residencies at top institutions, while many "just match" into primary care.

I'm calling this bluff. Let's see some stats. Keep it within the last 5 years or so.

My Brother goes to a school that cares... why? because he pays . They want their students to succeed and continue forward. Also it is hard to market a school that can't get matches. Business make not care for the love of the students, but they may for the love of the money.

They care about his money and their ability to market to desperate students. That's a pretty low bar for any school that is supposed to train physicians.

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[Boolean]

It isn't so much the Caribbean students as it is the Caribbean institutions. Many are money hungry and will accept anyone with a pulse and a checkbook. The downside to this is: some people really should not be physicians. While the Caribbean schools may say it is fine that you failed organic chemistry three times, no U.S. allopathic school worth its salt would allow that without some seriously good reasoning.

 

[Lucca]

OK but he has saved 4 years and a ton of money, come time to match he is already ahead of the game.

If by "ahead of the game" you mean "ill-equipped and 40-50% less likely to have a job after graduation" (and thats at the big 4) then I agree.

 

[james2333]

There is no logic here, and you make yourself sound like an ignorant person. I suggest you just stop posting.

You sir are part of the problem

Obviously someone who is illogical is incapable of understanding logic. It's pretty straightforward. This coming from a pre-med student who hasn't even started med school. Good luck with your caribbean education. Don't come crying on the forum when you don't match

 

[premed1001]

-

 

[gumdrops]

did i hit some kind of nerve?

Methinks it's time to back away slowly...

 

[james2333]

did i hit some kind of nerve?

No, are you kidding me ? I could care less what a pre-med thinks. I'm starting residency in a few months, I have better things to worry about. I'm trying to warn others from making a big mistake by choosing a route that obviously has no future.

 

[Boolean]

There is no logic here, and you make yourself sound like an ignorant person. I suggest you just stop posting.

You sir are part of the problem

I don't see what the issue is? This is a correct statement… The AAMC said that when U.S. students in foreign medical schools and international med students seeking American residency slots are added to the pool, there already are more graduates than slots. That will only worsen as both existing and new colleges crank out more medical graduates. While most American med-school graduates find a residency program, 528 didn't match up with one this year and about 75 graduates of osteopathic colleges didn't match (2013).

 

[DermViser]

-ok first by going carib he just saved 4 years of undergrad
-second he saved a mountain of debt from paying for US undergrad
-last that sounds like baloney, why would said "friend" with a 3.9 go caribean when he could probably get into us BS/MD program

Uh, no.

 

[mimelim]

Truth . I think you mean *Caribbean instead of US, but I get what you are saying. But please understand that there are some Caribbean students who have landed residencies at top institutions, while many "just match" into primary care.

Source? Not saying it is impossible, but I'm doubting the veracity of this claim.

 

[premed1001]

-

 

[gumdrops]

Source? Not saying it is impossible, but I'm doubting the veracity of this claim.

Ah, procrastination. Just found a couple of categorical matches into Cornell anesthesia (I know, I know, anesthesiology is not considered "competitive" anymore but it's not a primary care specialty either) and one PM&R match (growing more competitive) into Wayne State on the 2012 SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2012

 

[Boolean]

wheres your data coming from? i can see that many times more than 528 IMG's matched. is this because those US grads were trying to get in super competitive specialties? if that is the case then im sure they would have matched just fine in lower specialties

Information is located here.

 

[mimelim]

Ah, procrastination. Just found a couple of categorical matches into Cornell anesthesia (I know, I know, anesthesiology is not considered "competitive" anymore but it's not a primary care specialty either) and one PM&R match (growing more competitive) into Wayne State on the 2012 SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2012

Neither of those are even remotely "competitive".

 

[Boolean]

Neither of those are even remotely "competitive".

Some supporting info on this.

 

[gumdrops]

Neither of those are even remotely "competitive".

Found one opthalmology match in 2011 to U of Ottawa from SGU as well. It's more fun to cherry-pick than use the NRMP data because this is not a real discussion and I like stirring the pot.

 

[Boolean]

Found one opthalmology match in 2011 to U of Ottawa from SGU as well. It's more fun to cherry-pick than use the NRMP data because this is not a real discussion and I like stirring the pot.

Unless my hometown has changed, U of Ottawa is certainly not in the United States. It's a nice school, no doubt about that, but it isn't American.

 

[gumdrops]

Unless my hometown has changed, U of Ottawa is certainly not in the United States. It's a nice school, no doubt about that, but it isn't American.

Sorry, didn't see that we were looking for competitive residency matches in strictly American residencies.

 

[Boolean]

Sorry, didn't see that we were looking for competitive residency matches in strictly American residencies.

Not sure if we were or not — I thought that was the focus of the thread however. My mistake!

 

[mimelim]

Some supporting info on this.

Okay, for starters. PMR is less competitive than peds and family medicine. Wayne State is hardly a powerhouse for most things, much less PMR (if such a thing exists). Second, while anestesia can get competitive at the top programs and at programs in desirable locations, they are relatively common place in US MD school's matches. This is a large problem (as I have mentioned several times before) with pre-meds looking at match lists and trying to interpret them. For the most part, there is little to gleen from match lists, and what there is requires a reasonable amount of context to understand. To be honest, those are two very bad examples and that link you posted is a very dumbed down, simplified document that doesn't really mean much. (try charting the outcomes as a source instead)

 

[gumdrops]

Okay, for starters. PMR is less competitive than peds and family medicine. Wayne State is hardly a powerhouse for most things, much less PMR (if such a thing exists). Second, while anestesia can get competitive at the top programs and at programs in desirable locations, they are relatively common place in US MD school's matches. This is a large problem (as I have mentioned several times before) with pre-meds looking at match lists and trying to interpret them. For the most part, there is little to gleen from match lists, and what there is requires a reasonable amount of context to understand. To be honest, those are two very bad examples and that link you posted is a very dumbed down, simplified document that doesn't really mean much. (try charting the outcomes as a source instead)

We weren't taking this all that seriously but your advice is duly noted. Thanks.

 

[Boolean]

Okay, for starters. PMR is less competitive than peds and family medicine. Wayne State is hardly a powerhouse for most things, much less PMR (if such a thing exists). Second, while anestesia can get competitive at the top programs and at programs in desirable locations, they are relatively common place in US MD school's matches. This is a large problem (as I have mentioned several times before) with pre-meds looking at match lists and trying to interpret them. For the most part, there is little to gleen from match lists, and what there is requires a reasonable amount of context to understand. To be honest, those are two very bad examples and that link you posted is a very dumbed down, simplified document that doesn't really mean much. (try charting the outcomes as a source instead)

My issue with charting the outcomes is that I cannot find a singular source that lists both average student stats and their matches. The chart I've found gave some insight into state and specialty, but not the students. Perhaps you know of a better resource?

 

[NontradCA]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/md-vs-do-vs-caribbean-hard-facts-and-statistics.813819/

 

[gumdrops]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/md-vs-do-vs-caribbean-hard-facts-and-statistics.813819/

Whoa, this is sick. For all the crap on this forum, there are some true gems at times.

US IMG = US citizens who went to foreign medical schools, right? So the Caribbean folks?

 

[NontradCA]

Whoa, this is sick. For all the crap on this forum, there are some true gems at times.

US IMG = US citizens who went to foreign medical schools, right? So the Caribbean folks?

Yes.

 

[DermViser]

Ah, procrastination. Just found a couple of categorical matches into Cornell anesthesia (I know, I know, anesthesiology is not considered "competitive" anymore but it's not a primary care specialty either) and one PM&R match (growing more competitive) into Wayne State on the 2012 SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2012

Yeah, not even remotely competitive.

 

[rain4venus]

Neither of those are even remotely "competitive".

In his defense, he didn't say "competitive residencies" or even "top residencies" - he just said "residencies at top institutions"
So he could be referring to really non-competitive residencies at locations that do have other programs that are highly regarded

ETA: of course, that makes what he was saying completely irrelevant.

 

[chillinillinkillin007]

nice party hat OP. I'll trade you a bronze full helm for it.

 

[TheShaker]

I don't hate or dislike Carib students but it does make me question their ability to make informed, evidence based decisions.

 

[Member 331305]

NRMP 2014 Match Results. Check out Table 4.

% of applicants who matched into a PGY-1 spot:

US Seniors: 94.4%
DO applicants: 77.7%
US IMGs: 53.0%​

The odds of a Caribbean graduate matching is slightly better than a coin toss. Would an intelligent person gamble 4 years of his/her life and >$200K of debt on a 50/50 chance of practicing medicine?

 

[Psai]

NRMP 2014 Match Results. Check out Table 4.

% of applicants who matched into a PGY-1 spot:

US Seniors: 94.4%
DO applicants: 77.7%
US IMGs: 53.0%​

The odds of a Caribbean graduate matching is slightly better than a coin toss. Would an intelligent person gamble 4 years of his/her life and >$200K of debt on a 50/50 chance of practicing medicine?

Those numbers are for the people who actually get to the point of applying to residency. How many people wash out before then?

 

[Say]

Hey everyone, I'd like to make a clarification. 1)caribbean med schools are not good for everyone, and they work for a select few students, while a large many don't have much success due to certain incompetences. 2) students that would have been fine in the US system (though did not make the cut for some reason) typically do fine when finding a match.

Here is a link with some of the matches at SGU: https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2013/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

 

[Lucca]

Hey everyone, I'd like to make a clarification. 1)caribbean med schools are not good for everyone, and they work for a select few students, while a large many don't have much success due to certain incompetences. 2) students that would have been fine in the US system (though did not make the cut for some reason) typically do fine when finding a match.

Here is a link with some of the matches at SGU: https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2013/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

We understand that the system works for some people and that they end up being doctors anyways. These same students would've been fine if they re-applied here or went the DO route. I cannot, however, recommend the Carib to anyone because the other 50% of students at those schools are essentially just getting swindled out of their money.

The business structure of the Carib preys on the desperate, the weak, the cognitavely dissonant, and the needlessly-elitist-about-an-MD types.

If Carib schools disappeared tomorrow all that we would have is more reapplicants, more people going the DO route, and - most importantly - residency slots taken up by FMGs trying to start a new life here rather than US IMG's that just happened to make a horrible decision when they graduated college/highschool.

 

[WillburCobb]

Hey everyone, I'd like to make a clarification. 1)caribbean med schools are not good for everyone, and they work for a select few students, while a large many don't have much success due to certain incompetences. 2) students that would have been fine in the US system (though did not make the cut for some reason) typically do fine when finding a match.

Here is a link with some of the matches at SGU: https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2013/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

Also, that list fails to mention how many of those students have been trying to match for more than one cycle. OP just please stop, your argument is very flawed. You're not going to sway anyone'e opinion about carib schools or their students here. And as myself and several others have pointed out in previous posts beyond their very questionable decision making, or need to have two consonats after their name instead of one consonat and a, god forbid, lowly vowel no one has an issue with carib students. Its the schools that people take issue with, and rightly so.

 

[Hemorrage]

Like my brother you are an exception to the rule too. Thanks for your input.

Caribbean students display an immense amount of ignorance and stupidity by going there (instead of trying native alternatives like DO), that explains the overall animosity towards them.

 

[rain4venus]

If we were to assume that it were true that the students at Carib schools had higher stats than those at DO schools, doesn't that make their judgment even MORE questionable, since those students could have almost certainly made it into a DO school and would have been far more likely to make it into a residency after 4 years?

 

[candbgirl]

So OP why did your brother end up at a Caribbean school?

 

[Xenoblade]

In defense of US IMG, there are some legitimate reasons why they would want to go to a foreign medical school.

You might have had some trouble with the law, the military might have dishonorably discharged you, institutional action, failed out of college, failed to get into us md and do schools after multiple rounds, or some other unique situation. So in these circumstances, I can see why someone would want to do this especially if medicine is their dream. You can still pursue medicine with these black marks on your record at foreign medical schools.

This one person that I know who is bros with my bros, went to eastern Europe for medical school. This is a weird because he was doing rotc, which surprised me that he didn't go to a us undergraduate school where the tuition would have been covered by the military...or just go to usuhs. He claims that time is an issue, but I know that is a bs reason because he wouldn't join the military if time really was an issue. Obviously, he has some outstanding issue that he is too embarrassed to tell me about. Hehe, he thinks he is so smart and that he can lie me. I see you b**ch! LOL!

A'hem...Back on topic: there are legitimate reasons why someone would pursue medicine at a foreign medical school. I am just glad that I am fortunate enough to not have to deal with those issues.

 

[dr zaius]

A good friend of mine ended up going to SGU for medical school because he was lazy in undergrad and refused to apply to DO schools. He told me the first 2 years were difficult with a lot of variations in teaching ability from instructors and poor support staff. He said the attrition rate was scary (compared to US MD schools) and he went into hardcore study mode relying primarily on outside resources to learn. He ended up with a 250+ on step I and matched at a decent (not top tier, but definitely not an undesirable institution) IM program. He said if he could do it all over again he would go DO.

From my experience on rotations no one cares if you went to the carib if you know your stuff. It's the ones that come out and flounder on simple things that give the carib a bad name. If you have someone from medical college of Georgia that screws up constantly you're likely to say "man, what an idiot!" and blame it on the person. If it's a carib student you'll likely blame it on the school. Just my anecdotal 2 cents.

 

[WillburCobb]

In defense of US IMG, there are some legitimate reasons why they would want to go to a foreign medical school.

You might have had some trouble with the law, the military might have dishonorably discharged you, institutional action, failed out of college, failed to get into us md and do schools after multiple rounds, or some other unique situation. So in these circumstances, I can see why someone would want to do this especially if medicine is their dream. You can still pursue medicine with these black marks on your record at foreign medical schools.

If you've managed to screw up bad enough with the law, military, or an IA in undergrad that badly after enough time and proving you've changed that no US school will touch you, its still not a legitimate reason to attend a carib school. You still have to obtain a residency and get licenesed, and something that serious will very likely come back to haunt you.

You can still get into a US med school despite failing-out of college. Yes, its a lot of hard work but it can be done. There are people on SDN who have done this. So that's not a legit reason.

If you fail to be accepted to a US school after multiple cycles and doing the most you can to improve your chances each time, then medicine is definitely not where you belong. So that also is not a legit reason.

Yes, I can see why someone would want to go overseas to pursue medicine in these circumstances, but that doesn't change the fact that a) doing so makes someone's already questionable decision make skills even more questionable, and b) that outcome will be very, very bleak.

 

[Xenoblade]

If you've managed to screw up bad enough with the law, military, or an IA in undergrad that badly after enough time and proving you've changed that no US school will touch you, its still not a legitimate reason to attend a carib school. You still have to obtain a residency and get licenesed, and something that serious will very likely come back to haunt you.

You can still get into a US med school despite failing-out of college. Yes, its a lot of hard work but it can be done. There are people on SDN who have done this. So that's not a legit reason.

If you fail to be accepted to a US school after multiple cycles and doing the most you can to improve your chances each time, then medicine is definitely not where you belong. So that also is not a legit reason.

Yes, I can see why someone would want to go overseas to pursue medicine in these circumstances, but that doesn't change the fact that a) doing so makes someone's already questionable decision make skills even more questionable, and b) that outcome will be very, very bleak.

You know what, I obviously don't care about the guy who had to go to eastern Europe for medical school.

I'll just say this. All those things your pointed out might have been the exception. I don't know and don't care. I am not going to even argue with you.

But I think we all can agree that it sucks to be them. This is what I hear when they talk:

 

[chenzt]

You might have had some trouble with the law, the military might have dishonorably discharged you, institutional action, failed out of college, failed to get into us md and do schools after multiple rounds, or some other unique situation.

One of these is way worse that the rest, lol. No residency will touch you with a DD. Heck you might have a hard time finding a job at McDonald's.

 

[gumdrops]

This whole discussion underlines how badly people want to be physicians.

What current and aspiring medical students need to consider is how difficult it is becoming to secure a match, period. Don't want to divulge too much but I was appalled to hear through the grapevine that several top-tier US allos had many unmatched applicants this year. That's right. UNMATCHED TO ANYTHING.

It used to be that an MD from either the US or abroad was a relatively safe ticket to a secure, well-paying job until quite recently. Now even US MD's have an element of uncertainty in whether or not they will get a job after graduation. It behooves everyone to ask themselves whether becoming a physician is worth it anymore unless you're willing to incur lots of debt and suffer a tremendous amount of stress at every step. Why start at such a tremendous disadvantage as a Caribbean MD? The system is shifting to help US grads and penalize US IMG's even more. If the climate is this bad now, imagine what it will be in 5-6 years.

 

[Xenoblade]

One of these is way worse that the rest, lol. No residency will touch you with a DD. Heck you might have a hard time finding a job at McDonald's.

Yeah...I think that guy was DD. Or why else wouldn't he go for free college for undergrad and possibly medical school at usuhs or hpsp? He is a pathological liar. The funny thing is I don't care. But I accidently connected the dots. Now I just laugh every time he complains because he just spits out lie after lie.

My point to him: I see you b**ch!

To the OP, I feel like you left out some important detail about your brother. More often than not, that is the case in these situations. (one important fact that the op might have left out is that his brother might be imaginary. wouldn't surprise me. LOL!!!).

Oh well. not my problem.

 

[WillburCobb]

...I was appalled to hear through the grapevine schools like Harvard and other top-tier US allos had several unmatched applicants this year. That's right. UNMATCHED TO ANYTHING.

Appalled why? That those students didn't is more than likely ~100% their fault.

 

[gumdrops]

Appalled why? That those students didn't is more than likely ~100% their fault.

Judgmental and overly sure of yourself much? We don't know what factors played into their not matching. With this 90% + match rate touted for US allo grads, I'd expect someone coming out of Harvard to match due to pedigree and their making look schools look good by entering their residency programs. Maybe not derm or plastics or ortho but just about anything else. I don't want to say any more (inside info) but some of the results were shocking at schools this year.

 

[Xenoblade]

Judgmental and overly sure of yourself much? We don't know what factors played into their not matching. With this 90% + match rate touted for US allo grads, I'd expect someone coming out of Harvard to match due to pedigree and their making look schools look good by entering their residency programs. Maybe not derm or plastics or ortho but just about anything else. I don't want to say any more (inside info) but some of the results were shocking at schools this year.

Thank you. You typed what I was too lazy/apathetic to type out.

Oh, whatever...that hubris won't harm you or me, gum drops.

 

[WillburCobb]

I also have inside sources to match info for a US MD school and in the past 5 or so years 9 times out of 10 when a student hasn't matched its been primarily their fault (e.g., not ranking enough programs, only applying to programs which are a reach, applying to competitive fields that are a huge reach for their stats, etc.). Also, just because you come from a name brand school doesn't mean you're automatically guaranteed residency spot.

 

[Xenoblade]

Appalled why? That those students didn't is more than likely ~100% their fault.

Btw, I think medical schools and pd will absolutely love your personality. Let it shine during your interviews.

 

[WillburCobb]

Btw, I think medical schools and pd will absolutely love your personality. Let it shine during your interviews.

Shine I did and apparently it did the trick.