In Support of Caribbean Students

[WillburCobb]

There's probably more to such stories. One has to go through the court-martial and the whole shabang. With DD you lose your right to own firearms and vote, any governmental aids/loans and veteran benefits, government employment; it's akin to a felony conviction in civilian court. I doubt they do it often.

Yeah. My dad was pretty belligerent in the military and had a number of infractions (talking back to officers, not showing-up to duty on time, ditching drill, etc.) the straw the broke the camels back was him falling asleep on guard duty twice. All they did was strip him of his rank and discharge him. He still has fully access to all veterans benefits. So I'm pretty sure it takes something pretty serious for a DD.

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[gumdrops]

And the point has been missed.

I was trying to illustrate the importance of being realistic.

Nope, your point was made. You just made a terrible analogy.

 

[dr zaius]

Nope, your point was made. You just made a terrible analogy.

How was it inaccurate?

 

[WillburCobb]

Nope, your point was made. You just made a terrible analogy.

Because acceptance of one's own likely future isn't realistic...

 

[gumdrops]

How was it inaccurate?

Because acceptance of one's own likely future isn't realistic...

If you don't see how it is all NOT EQUIVALENT to compare the hope of a terminal cancer patient to that of someone who messed up a test, there is NO helping you.

 

[Xenoblade]

Yeah. My dad was pretty belligerent in the military and had a number of infractions (talking back to officers, not showing-up to duty on time, ditching drill, etc.) the straw the broke the camels back was him falling asleep on guard duty twice. All they did was strip him of his rank and discharge him. He still has fully access to all veterans benefits. So I'm pretty sure it takes something pretty serious for a DD.

depends on the branch too. Some branches will kick you out easily (AF) while others will tolerate more (A).

The AF has had a record of kicking people out for being fatties while the A is just now starting to do so. Again, not sure if it is dd or hd.

dr. zaius might know since he has to deal with it.

 

[WillburCobb]

depends on the branch too. Some branches will kick you out easily (AF) while others will tolerate more (A).

The AF has had a record of kicking people out for being fatties while the A is just now starting to do so. Again, not sure if it is dd or hd. dr. zaius might know since he has to deal with it.

Ah. Well my dad was in the army and this happened in the early 60's so who knows.

 

[dr zaius]

If you don't see how it is all NOT EQUIVALENT to compare the hope of a terminal cancer patient to that of someone who messed up a test, there is NO helping you.

I understand why you're confused. It seems different on an emotional level. Realistically, with the patient, it comes down to making decisions that have a very minimal chance of increasing the length of life with often times a poor quality of remaining life, all based on the premise that 10% of people are alive at 5 years. The real details of those 10% are usually unknown. Why did they make it?

With the match it's the idea that someone with a low board score made it into the specialty you wanted to pursue, but you don't know the details. It's very similar and not at all as silly as you want it to be.

 

[WaterIsGood]

If you don't see how it is all NOT EQUIVALENT to compare the hope of a terminal cancer patient to that of someone who messed up a test, there is NO helping you.

The analogy is insensitive. But I see what he was trying to get at.

 

[gumdrops]

I understand why you're confused. It seems different on an emotional level. Realistically, with the patient, it comes down to making decisions that have a very minimal chance of increasing the length of life with often times a poor quality of remaining life, all based on the premise that 10% of people are alive at 5 years. The real details of those 10% are usually unknown. Why did they make it?

With the match it's the idea that someone with a low board score made it into the specialty you wanted to pursue, but you don't know the details. It's very similar and not at all as silly as you want it to be.

You made a completely inappropriate, disgusting and non-equivalent analogy and now you're trying to play it off as my not understanding? Don't try to save yourself with condescension. I understood you perfectly well the first time and said that earlier. You're comparing the hope that people have when they're fighting for their life and looking for any hope in that bleakness and comparing that to the unrealistic exceptional thinking that leads people to apply for derm with a 217 board score. I guess it could be reasonable that you haven't seen anyone die of cancer so thus you think that it's an acceptable analogy.

No wonder people hate doctors so much.

 

[WillburCobb]

I think reading some Kierkegaard, Camus, or Ernest Becker might do someone some good.

 

[gumdrops]

I think reading some Kierkegaard, Camus, or Ernest Becker might do someone some good.

I guess I'll need some Camus after watching kids die every week in a pedi hem/onc clinic. That'll do the trick. Thanks so much!

 

[WillburCobb]

I guess I'll need some Camus after watching kids die every week in a pedi hem/onc clinic. That'll do the trick. Thanks so much!

Not being an ass, but that may seriously help you help them.

 

[gumdrops]

Not being an ass, but that may seriously help you help them.

Sorry, this whole thread made me touchy, especially when cancer patients were compared to people who flubbed a test. I've had The Plague on my reading list for years...this summer is as good a time as any to tackle it. Also have The Myth of Sisyphus. Haven't heard of Ernest Becker but I'll check him out. Any other suggestions?

 

[chenzt]

depends on the branch too. Some branches will kick you out easily (AF) while others will tolerate more (A).

The AF has had a record of kicking people out for being fatties while the A is just now starting to do so. Again, not sure if it is dd or hd.

dr. zaius might know since he has to deal with it.

There's general discharge, other than honorable discharge, and bad conduct discharge too.

 

[WillburCobb]

Sorry, this whole thread made me touchy, especially when cancer patients were compared to people who flubbed a test. I've had The Plague on my reading list for years...this summer is as good a time as any to tackle it. Also have The Myth of Sisyphus. Haven't heard of Ernest Becker but I'll check him out. Any other suggestions?

The Stranger by Camus is also good. The Denial of Death is Becker's best known work and what I would recommend. Also, I HIGHLY recommend Flight From Death. Its a documentary that used to be available on NetFlix but I think it was recently removed.

 

[gumdrops]

The Stranger by Camus is also good. The Denial of Death is Becker's best known work and what I would recommend. Also, I HIGHLY recommend Flight From Death. Its a documentary that used to be available on NetFlix but I think it was recently removed.

I read The Stranger years ago before I was old enough to understand it. I never figured out why they made that high school reading because I think even smart kids would have trouble grasping existentialism before their mid-to-late twenties. Honestly, your understanding of it keeps evolving throughout your life so The Stranger deserves a repeat. Ernest Becker looks really fascinating. I've added The Denial of Death to my reading list as well. Flight From Death is on Youtube so I've saved that as well.

You may like The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann if you haven't read that.

 

[DermViser]

Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God.

You totally missed it. Might want to work more on your critical thinking and extrapolation skills.

 

[dr zaius]

You made a completely inappropriate, disgusting and non-equivalent analogy and now you're trying to play it off as my not understanding? Don't try to save yourself with condescension. I understood you perfectly well the first time and said that earlier. You're comparing the hope that people have when they're fighting for their life and looking for any hope in that bleakness and comparing that to the unrealistic exceptional thinking that leads people to apply for derm with a 217 board score. I guess it could be reasonable that you haven't seen anyone die of cancer so thus you think that it's an acceptable analogy.

No wonder people hate doctors so much.

I'm sorry. You missed the point again. Both have hope, but both should seriously plan for a let down.

But seriously, sorry if I touched a nerve, especially if you had someone close to you recently die of cancer.

 

[DermViser]

I understand why you're confused. It seems different on an emotional level. Realistically, with the patient, it comes down to making decisions that have a very minimal chance of increasing the length of life with often times a poor quality of remaining life, all based on the premise that 10% of people are alive at 5 years. The real details of those 10% are usually unknown. Why did they make it?

With the match it's the idea that someone with a low board score made it into the specialty you wanted to pursue, but you don't know the details. It's very similar and not at all as silly as you want it to be.

But it's much more "fun" to get emotionally revved up about it, and have a clutching of the pearls moment.

 

[gumdrops]

You totally missed it. Might want to work more on your critical thinking and extrapolation skills.

You're kind of adorably "by the book" in your thinking, I've realized. All sarcasm and understatement have been lost on you before. Thank you so, so much for the valuable advice though. I will definitely take it into account coming from you.

 

[DermViser]

You're kind of adorably "by the book" in your thinking, I've realized. All sarcasm and understatement have been lost on you before. Thank you so, so much for the valuable advice though. I will definitely take it into account coming from you.

Your response of "Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God," shows you're going more "by the book" rather than trying to understand the point he was trying to get at.

 

[gumdrops]

I'm sorry. You missed the point again. Both have hope, but both should seriously plan for a let down.

But seriously, sorry if I touched a nerve, especially if you had someone close to you recently die of cancer.

Your response of "Only on SDN would people compare the mentality of a terminal cancer patient to that of a person with a low Step 1 score. God," shows you're going more "by the book" rather than trying to understand the point he was trying to get at.

Alright, so I don't have the studied nihilism yet that you both seem to have. I understood the point that he was getting at. Hope springs eternal. Sorry I didn't specifically include a restatement much, much earlier because it seems that everyone here REALLY thought I misunderstood the analogy. That's actually adorable and what I should have expected from the people on this board.

I said the analogy sucked. Since you all agreed with the analogy, you went ahead and inferred that I didn't understand it and therefore I think it sucks. I understood the point and still thought it was a gross, inappropriate analogy that does not at all encompass why a terminal cancer patient would cling to a low survival rate. Still, you continued with ad hominem attacks because I disagreed, not because I misunderstood.

 

[dr zaius]

depends on the branch too. Some branches will kick you out easily (AF) while others will tolerate more (A).

The AF has had a record of kicking people out for being fatties while the A is just now starting to do so. Again, not sure if it is dd or hd.

dr. zaius might know since he has to deal with it.

As far as I know we have to pass height/weight and the Army physical fitness test. If you don't pass the fit test you will not progress to PGY2. Not sure about height/weight.

 

[dr zaius]

Alright, so I don't have the studied nihilism yet that you both seem to have. I understood the point that he was getting at. Hope springs eternal. Sorry I didn't specifically include a restatement much, much earlier because it seems that everyone here REALLY thought I misunderstood the analogy. That's actually adorable and what I should have expected from the people on this board.

I said the analogy sucked. Since you all agreed with the analogy, you went ahead and inferred that I didn't understand it and therefore I think it sucks. I understood the point and still thought it was a gross, inappropriate analogy that does not at all encompass why a terminal cancer patient would cling to a low survival rate. Still, you continued with ad hominem attacks because I disagreed, not because I misunderstood.

Awwww. No, you're adorable

 

[gumdrops]

Awwww. No, you're adorable

If you really thought so, you would have picked a cuter emoticon.

OMG, DermViser is going to take me seriously..."No, he's actually being sarcastic. Please work on your inference skills."

 

[dr zaius]

If you really thought so, you would have picked a cuter emoticon.

OMG, DermViser is going to take me seriously..."No, he's actually being sarcastic. Please work on your inference skills."

It probably was a crass analogy to most, but when you get into the thick of it you will understand. You will see a lot of patients with very marginal odds grasping at treatments that have a very minimal probability of increasing their lifespan and expecting miracles only to experience a very unpleasant exit from this world.

 

[petyr_baelish]

It probably was a crass analogy to most, but when you get into the thick of it you will understand. You will see a lot of patients with very marginal odds grasping at treatments that have a very minimal probability of increasing their lifespan and expecting miracles only to experience a very unpleasant exit from this world.

Isn't it better that they spend the rest of their days happy and optimistic, even if it's just a fairytale?

On the other hand, no fairytales should be indulged in when one is studying for the Steps or dealing with other high-stakes aspects of their career.

 

[gumdrops]

It probably was a crass analogy to most, but when you get into the thick of it you will understand. You will see a lot of patients with very marginal odds grasping at treatments that have a very minimal probability of increasing their lifespan and expecting miracles only to experience a very unpleasant exit from this world.

I can only imagine how frustrating and depressing it is to be the physician dealing with patients who are expecting to be the miracle. Don't know if it's better to go down fighting or to make a more graceful exit. I read that doctors with cancer are less likely to extend chemotherapy or try experimental treatments when their disease has progressed. Even in the face of data, I still don't know what I'd do due to fear and depending on circumstances.

 

[WillburCobb]

Isn't it better that they spend the rest of their days happy and optimistic, even if it's just a fairytale?

On the other hand, no fairytales should be indulged in when one is studying for the Steps or dealing with other high-stakes aspects of their career.

Id rather be comfortable and accept my mortality, than miserable and barely grasping at a very unlikely outcome with a very long and unpleasant recovery.

 

[dr zaius]

Either way we are all way off topic.

 

[WillburCobb]

To be fair though this thread was pretty much doomed from the beginning.

 

[gumdrops]

Either way we are all way off topic.

This is a more interesting discussion though. I think everyone, OP included, had reached consensus about 100 posts ago. We're at that pre-application season lull where we're reduced to figuring out every which way a Caribbean school can screw you. The only new fact I learned from this thread is that there are "adults" who call themselves "your friends" who call you a ****** for attending a Caribbean school.

 

[WillburCobb]

This is a more interesting discussion though. I think everyone, OP included, had reached consensus about 100 posts ago. We're at that pre-application season lull where we're reduced to figuring out every which way a Caribbean school can screw you. The only new fact I learned from this thread is that there are "adults" who call themselves "your friends" who call you a ****** for attending a Caribbean school.

I'll agree that although not necessarily handled in the best manner, some of the discussions that came out of this thread were much more interesting and valid discussion topics than the initial topic.

 

[gumdrops]

I'll agree that although not necessarily handled in the best manner, some of the discussions that came out of this thread were much more interesting and valid discussion topics than the initial topic.

Totes agreed. It was super-sweet though that this kid lobbied for his brother to not be picked on for being a Caribbean grad and for all of us to be less quick to make assumptions about who someone is now based on who they were four years ago. I think that's what this was all about.