In Support of Caribbean Students

[Say]

Hello SDN,

I have been reading the pre-medical forums for about a year now, and all I can say is "wow" when reading some of the remarks about medical students in the Caribbean. I find the remarks to be generally off-base insulting their intelligence and common sense. It is almost as if many of you treat them as the lepers of this forum. I'm currently a senior in college and have been accepted to four MD schools in the US. However, I am not as ignorant as many of you are towards Caribbean students. My brother attends a Caribbean school, and I have personally visited the school. The school's facilities were above and beyond much of what I've seen at a few US MD schools that I visited. The students' motivation was palpable, and the students I met were truly passionate. My brother is hard working and is an inspiration for me as I move forward into medical school. Many of his upperclass friends have done just fine in the match process-- maybe not getting plastic surgery residency but still landing surgery/IM.

Moral of the post? If you have a) never met a Caribbean student b) haven't done research/seen what they have to offer, please don't show such hatred. I imagine many of you soon-to-be MDs feel as if they are cheating the system and taking MD residencies from the self-righteous US MDs. You people with that mentality are no worse than the people that show hatred to Mexican immigrants who are taking the jobs from the working class in America. The US is great because of its capitalist nature of where the best man wins. More IMGs=more competition=better quality doctors in the best specialties. After all, if US MDs think they are so much better then they would sack up and stop bitching about IMGs taking their residencies.

EDIT: Last paragraph is full of hyperbole and an analogy that doesn't make so much sense. Focus on the beginning paragraph for discussion please!

EDIT2: Seriously, my last paragraph is garbage, but for the integrity of the thread I won't delete it!
I'm glad we are having this discussion.

Thanks, I appreciate all input, whether against me or for me.

Say

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[gumdrops]

Hello SDN,

I have been reading the pre-medical forums for about a year now, and all I can say is "wow" when reading some of the remarks about medical students in the Caribbean. I find the remarks to be generally off-base insulting their intelligence and common sense. It is almost as if many of you treat them as the lepers of this forum. I'm currently a senior in college and have been accepted to four MD schools in the US. However, I am not as ignorant as many of you are towards Caribbean students. My brother attends a Caribbean school, and I have personally visited the school. The school's facilities were above and beyond much of what I've seen at a few US MD schools that I visited. The students' motivation was palpable, and the students I met were truly passionate. My brother is hard working and is an inspiration for me as I move forward into medical school. Many of his upperclass friends have done just fine in the match process-- maybe not getting plastic surgery residency but still landing surgery/IM.

Moral of the post? If you have a) never met a Caribbean student b) haven't done research/seen what they have to offer, please don't show such hatred. I imagine many of you soon-to-be MDs feel as if they are cheating the system and taking MD residencies from the self-righteous US MDs. You people with that mentality are no worse than the people that show hatred to Mexican immigrants who are taking the jobs from the working class in America. The US is great because of its capitalist nature of where the best man wins. More IMGs=more competition=better quality doctors in the best specialties. After all, if US MDs think they are so much better then they would sack up and stop bitching about IMGs taking their residencies.

Thanks, I appreciate all input, whether against me or for me.

Say

The second paragraph of this post makes no sense and I'm going to wager you're trollin'. Still, nobody is hating on Caribbean students. We're hating on the schools, which prey on people's desperation and misinformation to land them in a worse place than they would have been otherwise. I'm glad your brother is doing so well and had such a positive experience in the Caribbean. He is the exception to the rule though. That is all we're saying.

 

[premed1001]

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[Burla]

lol

 

[Say]

Still, nobody is hating on Caribbean students. .

Like my brother you are an exception to the rule too. Thanks for your input.

 

[woltej1]

Just look at the statistics of Caribbean graduates vs US ones, kind of explains it all.

 

[WestCoastNative]

You people with that mentality are no worse than the people that show hatred to Mexican immigrants who are taking the jobs from the working class in America.

False analogy.

 

[gumdrops]

Just look at the statistics of Caribbean graduates vs US ones, kind of explains it all.

lol, tbh, we are kind of corroborating the OP's point with stuff like this.

 

[Say]

Yeah the last paragraph didn't make as much sense as I would have liked it too haha. But focus on the first part. I think SDN needs to understand what gumdrops is saying. Hate the school/for profit system sure, but don't hate on the students.

 

[premed1001]

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[woltej1]

http://medicalschoolhq.net/caribbean-medical-schools-what-you-need-to-know/

 

[Say]

My husband is an unmatched SGU student and so is one of his colleagues...

Hey victoriah, thanks for your post. Sorry to hear about your husband. You are right, the fact remains that these students have to go above and beyond to match into the speciality of their choice. Often having to apply very broadly and with much higher step 1 scores to land a position. But again, I'm trying to get people to stop hating on/having a stigma against people like your husband. They are part of the reason why he may be having problems getting a residency in the first place.

 

[gumdrops]

Yeah the last paragraph didn't make as much sense as I would have liked it too haha. But focus on the first part. I think SDN needs to understand what gumdrops is saying. Hate the school/for profit system sure, but don't hate on the students.

I think the tide has turned in that regard. If you look at posts from even 3-4 years ago, people hated on Carib students hardcore. Several factors beyond SDN's control, as much as everyone on this forum likes to think of themselves as opinion leaders, have exposed the reality and poor prospects for most grads after attending Caribbean schools. @victoriah's husband's experience is a great example. Her posts should be stickied as to what could happen when a very smart person made a completely fair assumption that a school was acting in his best interests and they really weren't.

It's those stories that lead people to view Carib grads with a lot of sympathy and yes, some skepticism as to their decision-making abilities. That's not SDN being biased. That's what would happen in any situation where people are taking immense risks for very uncertain reward.

 

[WestCoastNative]

You people with that mentality are no worse than the people that show hatred to Mexican immigrants who are taking the jobs from the working class in America.

False analogy.

Speaking of.. "you people with that mentality are no WORSE..."; meant to say better maybe?

 

[WillburCobb]

If you have a) never met a Caribbean student

I've met quite a few, around 10-20, although not a huge number they tend to be representative of the sterotype. Yes, some are practicing physicians but those that are either landed residencies with bad reps, or had to take extreme measures to land a residency.

b) haven't done research/seen what they have to offer, please don't show such hatred.

I've done research and it stacks-up with the anecdotal evidence.

I imagine many of you soon-to-be MDs feel as if they are cheating the system and taking MD residencies from the self-righteous US MDs.

Not in the least.

More IMGs=more competition=better quality doctors in the best specialties. After all, if US MDs think they are so much better then they would sack up and stop bitching about IMGs taking their residencies.

Not neccesarily. And no one is bitching about IMGs taking residency spots, its the other way around, IMGs are progressively becoming less succesful in obtaining residency spots.

The issue with carib schools is their lack of integrity and concern for their students, $ is number one for them. That's why they get a bad rep. The other big issue with carib schools is that they are a HUGE gamble with the odds stacked high in favor of the house. Any student and physician whose attended a carib school that I've talked to has confirmed the astronomical attrition rates (50% +/- depending on the school, compared to ~97% for US schools), the astronomical tuition compared to US schools, and the poor success rates in the match. The only real issue with carib students is their questionable judgement in taking such a HUGE risk.

 

[WillburCobb]

Sorry for the double post

 

[Say]

It's those stories that lead people to view Carib grads with a lot of sympathy and yes, some skepticism as to their decision-making abilities. That's not SDN being biased. That's what would happen in any situation where people are taking immense risks for very uncertain reward.

Unfortunately their skepticism and sympathy aren't always put forth so nicely. Often it looks like "wow carib school? wat a ****** lol. gl finding a residency cuz u bought ur degree"

 

[breakmon]

Quality thread. Just read every single post and liked them. Good job, guys!

 

[Say]

I've met quite a few, around 10-20...

Sorry buddy. If you read the edit, you'll see that I wanted the discussion to focus around the first paragraph. I acknowledge all of your points and you are right. I just got a little aggravated when writing the second part . I just want people to stop treating the students so bad, however feel free to hate the school!

 

[WestCoastNative]

Random **** found on google after searching Caribbean Medical School

 

[gumdrops]

Unfortunately their skepticism and sympathy aren't always put forth so nicely. Often it looks like "wow carib school? wat a ****** lol. gl finding a residency cuz u bought ur degree"

Okay, I get what you're saying. Thankfully SDN does not mirror real life because I've never treated a Carib grad that way nor do I think the vast majority of people on this board would IRL. It's just the internet empowering people's id's is all.

If I'm in residency alongside a Caribbean grad, I assume they're at least as qualified as I am numbers-wise. Likely much better, given the astronomical Step 1 scores Carib grads have to post to get any US residency these days. Anyone I know who completed residency alongside foreign grads never had that attitude because medical school humbles people enough for them to know that everyone who is in the same residency program is roughly equal either in qualifications or how their residency application balanced out. Can't help you with people hating on bad decisions and those who make them because that's life.

 

[Say]

Okay, I get what you're saying..

Where have you been on all these "I Hate Caribs" posts?? Haha. I have often felt that I'm the only one with sympathy for the efforts of these students on SDN. Thanks so much for your input. I intend on showing this thread to my brother when I get the chance.

 

[premed1001]

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[petyr_baelish]

Unfortunately their skepticism and sympathy aren't always put forth so nicely. Often it looks like "wow carib school? wat a ****** lol. gl finding a residency cuz u bought ur degree"

I had the displeasure once of meeting someone who said that to me on Facebook. You know what that person does for a living? Teaches tennis part-time, lives off parents and is fighting in court due to egregious financial fraud. Point is - most people worth knowing do not think about people that way. Usually we are our own worst enemy.

 

[woltej1]

at the end of the day, being a licensed physician is a demanding job and requires talented people. Even though I'm sure people who go Carib absolutely love medicine as much the next land based student, it requires more than that to make it. If their stats weren't good enough for DO or even podiatry, then maybe being a physician isn't for them and they can look into another part of health care.

 

[Say]

at the end of the day, being a licensed physician is a demanding job and requires talented people. Even though I'm sure people who go Carib absolutely love medicine as much the next land based student, it requires more than that to make it. If their stats weren't good enough for DO or even podiatry, then maybe being a physician isn't for them and they can look into another part of health care.

Hey thanks for your input. Often times Carib MD students have better average stats than those of DOs. Just something to put out there. I feel that many Carib students are perfectly suited for primary care specialties, but maybe not all of them are suited for neurosurgery.

 

[premed1001]

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[TheWeeIceMan]

Hey thanks for your input. Often times Carib MD students have better average stats than those of DOs. Just something to put out there. I feel that many Carib students are perfectly suited for primary care specialties, but maybe not all of them are suited for neurosurgery.

If a student has the stats to go to a DO school, but chooses to go to the Caribbean, then they deserve all the criticism that they get.

If this budget passes, which it likely will as soon as the GOP majority in the house is removed, Carib. match rates should sky rocket.

No. Just no.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Hey thanks for your input. Often times Carib MD students have better average stats than those of DOs. Just something to put out there. I feel that many Carib students are perfectly suited for primary care specialties, but maybe not all of them are suited for neurosurgery.

I would say that might be true for many SGU students. I don't think it is true for ROSS, AUC and SABA... I have two of my classmates who got into ROSS with 19 MCAT (not MERP)... It would be difficult to find someone who got into US DO with 19 MCAT. There are 30+ carib schools and I think most people in here lump all of them together, when in reality the big 4 is way ahead of the others.

 

[premed1001]

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[Espadaleader]

@Say If Carribean schools are so good why don't you go to one?

 

[NontradCA]

I disagree with the premise of this thread. I don't think in residency and practice anyone cares, so there's not really any stigma going on. The schools are illegitimate in the fact that they have such a high attrition rate, and dupe students into going there.

I think these schools should be bashed at every opportunity because you are essentially guilting someone into not going and saving them hundreds of thousands.

 

[Lucca]

I have a friend i grew up with who goes to a carib school. He is having an extremely difficult time there and the educational environment is toxic. Everyone is really motivated but only because if they arent self driven they will fail out and be back at square one. The professors dont show up to class a ton. They do not prepare their students well for their own exams and are solely focused on getting good board scores (more so than creating quality clinical experiences) and still do a rather bad job at that as well. He was a good student in high school (3.9 unweighted) and had a great SAT score. He would've been fine in undergrad. Now he is fightning an uphill battle for no good reason but is in too deep to get out. So no sympathy from me, sorry.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if your only option is to go carib or find another profession, theb just find another profession. This field is not for you.

 

[premed1001]

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[james2333]

Hey thanks for your input. Often times Carib MD students have better average stats than those of DOs. Just something to put out there. I feel that many Carib students are perfectly suited for primary care specialties, but maybe not all of them are suited for neurosurgery.

That is not true at all. The average MCAT score for your typical SGU student hovers around 22. The established DO schools hover around 29, while the older ones hover around 26. Its basically unanimous nowadays, all college advisors are advising their students against the caribbean route. Those who go Caribbean are the students who have applied multiple rounds and have been rejected to both USMD and USDO schools.

 

[james2333]

for anyone who doesnt know what im talking about
http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...et-for-2015-10-points-for-hospitals-know.html


If this budget passes, which it likely will as soon as the GOP majority in the house is removed, Carib. match rates should sky rocket.

There is talk that with the unification of the ACGME/AOA residencies there will be a second match. The first will take place for all USMD and USDO students, then one month later IMG/FMG's will be able to apply for the remaining spots. Good luck with that

Also most premed students don't understand everything that is involved with the process of applying to residencies. Most PDs know that Caribbean students get 6-8 months off to study for the board exams vs US students who get 4-6 weeks. If you're a Caribbean student and you're not scoring 250-260 after 6 months of studying then your chances of matching at a University program is pretty much over. Also understand that as an IMG/FMG you are not allowed to do externships/Sub-I's. You're only able to do observerships at outside hospitals, which is a death sentence for any competitive specialty that requires you to act like a sub-intern in order to acquire letters from chairman and show that you have the work ethic to be a good resident

 

[premed1001]

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[Lucca]

-ok first by going carib he just saved 4 years of undergrad
-second he saved a mountain of debt from paying for US undergrad
-last that sounds like baloney, why would said "friend" with a 3.9 go caribean when he could probably get into us BS/MD program

He didnt go to ugrad in US precisely for the reasons you listed above. But if he fails out or doesnt match then all that money he spent in carib is just a totally sunk cost. He has to fight for the residency scraps when he could've just MADE A REAL INVESTMENT AND NOT A SILLY GAMBLE on his education and been fine here.

 

[Say]

@Say If Carribean schools are so good why don't you go to one?

Please read my post. Thanks!

I have a friend i grew up....

Yes, a majority of students have a very difficult time in these schools. Many do not make it. Some students who could have made it in a US MD/DO school do well at these schools and achieve surprisingly good matches.

That is not true at all..

I would advise looking at another thread in this sub-forum about this matter. The consensus on that thread is that Carib students often have higher MCATs than those students who attend a DO school. But this post isn't about numbers...

I disagree with the premise of this thread...

I agree with you. There are many schools that take advantage of many students by accepting many unqualified applicants for money. However, the applicants that are truly qualified can normally find a match. Thanks for your input.

 

[james2333]

i am sure there are some kind of anti-trust violations with this methodology, so this wont be happening

its basically negating the worthiness of any foreign trained MD

you really think this will fly? lol

Lol- do you even know what anti-trust means? Look up the definition please. The unified residency program was made for the purpose of standardizing the quality of GME overall. There is no requirement for the unified body to accommodate for foreign medical students. They can do whatever they want. 20 years ago a foreign medical grad was able to come to the US and practice without additional training. Now the US Mandates that they do residency in the states in order to practice here. This is the same body that is in charge of GME in the US. They can do whatever they want and this is in fact their intended goal. Just wait and see. There is obligation for them to train outside grads. This process will still allow IMG's to apply, but they are left with positions that are leftover. Like it or not, this is the reality

 

[Solaire]

Say

That green p hat. Nice. Early 2000's was a fun time.

In all honesty, to echo the general mentality here, students can succeed there... it's just a lot harder and the risks are a lot higher. I've got an old jam buddy at one of the schools there; I'd like to see him succeed.

 

[Lucca]

Please read my post. Thanks!



Yes, a majority of students have a very difficult time in these schools. Many do not make it. Some students who could have made it in a US MD/DO school do well at these schools and achieve surprisingly good matches.



I would advise looking at another thread in this sub-forum about this matter. The consensus on that thread is that Carib students often have higher MCATs than those students who attend a DO school. But this post isn't about numbers...



I agree with you. There are many schools that take advantage of many students by accepting many unqualified applicants for money. However, the applicants that are truly qualified can normally find a match. Thanks for your input.

You know what you call a "surprisingly good" match at a medical school in the US? Just a match. Because over 90% match instead of 50%.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

with people like ted cruz representing the GOP there is no doubt it will happen

I meant the whole "Caribbean match rate will skyrocket" thing.

 

[james2333]

I would advise looking at another thread in this sub-forum about this matter. The consensus on that thread is that Carib students often have higher MCATs than those students who attend a DO school. But this post isn't about numbers...

The average MCAT score for SGU students that their institution provides is the average MCAT score for those who survive the first/second year. Those who drop out (50%) aren't considered in their stats. They fudge their numbers as do all caribbean schools. I have plenty of friends at the big 3 with MCAT scores <20, I guarantee you will never find a DO student with such a low score and I also highly doubt you'll find a student who goes to a Caribbean school over a DO school these days. Those that do obviously do not understand the system.

 

[NontradCA]

That green p hat. Nice. Early 2000's was a fun time.

In all honesty, to echo the general mentality here, students can succeed there... it's just a lot harder and the risks are a lot higher. I've got an old jam buddy at one of the schools there; I'd like to see him succeed.

There's something to be said about going to a school that doesn't give a **** whether you pass or fail. Students should avoid Caribbean schools at all costs. This includes not going to medical school at all if Carib is your only option.

 

[Say]

A lot of the technical stuff discussed by James2333 and premed1001 is out of my expertise. However,I'd say that is all speculative, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

That green p hat. Nice. Early 2000's was a fun time.

In all honesty, to echo the general mentality here, students can succeed there... it's just a lot harder and the risks are a lot higher. I've got an old jam buddy at one of the schools there; I'd like to see him succeed.

Thank you! I share your point of view precisely.

You know what you call a "surprisingly good" match at a medical school in the US? Just a match. Because over 90% match instead of 50%.

Truth . I think you mean *Caribbean instead of US, but I get what you are saying. But please understand that there are some Caribbean students who have landed residencies at top institutions, while many "just match" into primary care.

There's something to be said about going to a school that doesn't give a **** whether you pass or fail. Students should avoid Caribbean schools at all costs. This includes not going to medical school at all if Carib is your only option.

My Brother goes to a school that cares... why? because he pays . They want their students to succeed and continue forward. Also it is hard to market a school that can't get matches. Business make not care for the love of the students, but they may for the love of the money.

 

[premed1001]

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[NontradCA]

A lot of the technical stuff discussed by James2333 and premed1001 is out of my expertise. However,I'd say that is all speculative, I guess we'll have to wait and see.



Thank you! I share your point of view precisely.



Truth . I think you mean *Caribbean instead of US, but I get what you are saying. But please understand that there are some Caribbean students who have landed residencies at top institutions, while many "just match" into primary care.



My Brother goes to a school that cares... why? because he pays . They want their students to succeed and continue forward. Also it is hard to market a school that can't get matches. Business make not care for the love of the students, but they may for the love of the money.

I think what you're saying is bs. You are wishfully thinking because you have loved ones who are invested. I hope he matches, sincerely. I just don't think it should be advocated for anyone to attend Carib schools.

 

[premed1001]

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[Solaire]

There's something to be said about going to a school that doesn't give a **** whether you pass or fail. Students should avoid Caribbean schools at all costs. This includes not going to medical school at all if Carib is your only option.

Granted, but some people really want the chance to be a doctor and might not have the short-term capital to make it happen in a timely manner. Can't fault the underdogs. There are some success stories, albeit few.

Were it me, I'd be patient, build up adequate experiences and stats, and find a US school... or just become a teacher or something, but everyone's story is different; people go down their own road.