Level II trauma center residency

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JamesBond15

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Pre-med here, so pardon my lack of knowledge.

Would a person that does his/her residency at a level II trauma center be able to work/have the skills to work at a level I trauma center after residency? How does that work?

Thanks!

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Pre-med here, so pardon my lack of knowledge.

Would a person that does his/her residency at a level II trauma center be able to work/have the skills to work at a level I trauma center after residency? How does that work?

Thanks!

The only real difference between a Level I and Level II is the presence of a trauma research/prevention program. Functionally a level II is the same.

I graduated from a level II (Corpus Christi) and in some respects it was better. We did not have surgery residents, which meant the ER residents got to do all of the trauma procedures and RUN the trauma ICU.
 
The only real difference between a Level I and Level II is the presence of a trauma research/prevention program. Functionally a level II is the same.

I graduated from a level II (Corpus Christi) and in some respects it was better. We did not have surgery residents, which meant the ER residents got to do all of the trauma procedures and RUN the trauma ICU.

What is a Level 1 without trauma?
 
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No such thing.

Hmm.. I was looking at the hospital specifics on FREIDA and for one of the nearby hospitals it said
"
[SIZE=-1]Trauma center:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] No[/SIZE] Level 1"
hmm..
 
Hmm.. I was looking at the hospital specifics on FREIDA and for one of the nearby hospitals it said
"
[SIZE=-1]Trauma center:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] No[/SIZE] Level 1"
hmm..

It's probably a Level II. They still see trauma. As I was saying earlier the experience is probably just as good (if not better).
 
It's probably a Level II. They still see trauma. As I was saying earlier the experience is probably just as good (if not better).

To be fair, it largely depends on where the program is. If it's in Boston, Chicago, Philly, NYC - then trauma will go to the trauma center around the corner. If the Level II is the only game in town, then the trauma will end up at the Level II.
 
Pre-med here, so pardon my lack of knowledge.

Would a person that does his/her residency at a level II trauma center be able to work/have the skills to work at a level I trauma center after residency? How does that work?

Thanks!
Not necessarily true. This varies by states. In Georgia, level II trauma centers are not required to have surgeons in-house.
 
Not necessarily true. This varies by states. In Georgia, level II trauma centers are not required to have surgeons in-house.

Do ACS verified level IIs have to have trauma surgery present 24/7? Not that I think it really matters that much anyway after reading the article in Annals a couple months ago about trauma and the need for surgeons in trauma.
 
Yah, the distinguishing factor is that a level 1 trauma center must have an educational program, which usually translates into a surgery residency. There are also minimum volume requirements of critically ill patients to make the cut as either a level 2 or level 1 center. That's the quick and dirty, but I'm sure there are many more differences.
 
It's probably a Level II. They still see trauma. As I was saying earlier the experience is probably just as good (if not better).

Hmm.. well I volunteered in their ER and they don't get trauma. That is why I was asking. There is a trauma center about 10min away, so all trauma goes there.
 
Hmm.. well I volunteered in their ER and they don't get trauma. That is why I was asking. There is a trauma center about 10min away, so all trauma goes there.

That's something you have to look at on an individual basis. Like SoCute said, it depends on the geographic region - if you're in a city that has one or two Level 1's, then most of the trauma will typically go there, and so training at a Level II won't give you the best exposure. On the other hand, there are huge debates that go on (in SDN and in real life) about just how much trauma you really need to be comfortable dealing with it on your own. I don't know the answer to that, but after rotating at several different hospitals during my 4th year, I can definitely see a difference between the residents who trained at a hardcore/inner city/trauma-heavy program vs. those who are training at less intense programs. Now, that difference will only matter if you end up working at a hardcore/inner city, etc, hospital when you graduate, and most EM docs don't. So, what kind of a doc do you want to be? What do you want to do? As you go through clinical rotations and rotate at various hospitals, you'll see what 'fits' for you and where you want to be. Make your decision then, don't worry about it now.
 
That's something you have to look at on an individual basis. Like SoCute said, it depends on the geographic region - if you're in a city that has one or two Level 1's, then most of the trauma will typically go there, and so training at a Level II won't give you the best exposure. On the other hand, there are huge debates that go on (in SDN and in real life) about just how much trauma you really need to be comfortable dealing with it on your own. I don't know the answer to that, but after rotating at several different hospitals during my 4th year, I can definitely see a difference between the residents who trained at a hardcore/inner city/trauma-heavy program vs. those who are training at less intense programs. Now, that difference will only matter if you end up working at a hardcore/inner city, etc, hospital when you graduate, and most EM docs don't. So, what kind of a doc do you want to be? What do you want to do? As you go through clinical rotations and rotate at various hospitals, you'll see what 'fits' for you and where you want to be. Make your decision then, don't worry about it now.

And to add further confusion, some of those hardcore inner city trauma centers may lack the medical population that most other hospitals have. I rotated at a place that was the principal teaching venue for the residency and was incredibly trauma heavy. It was so trauma heavy that they were lacking the cardiac population because it went to another hospital a half mile away known for its extensive cardiac program. EMS and referring hospitals started splitting the transfers; cardiac issues went to hospital A, trauma went to hospital B. In my month there I probably took care of 4 or 5 times as many trauma victims compared to legit cardiac or cardiac rule out patients (leaving out the 20 year old with chest pain and on anxiety meds).
 
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When I was searching for a pharmacy residency program I was screening programs by looking for a Level I trauma center. However, the University of Maryland and University of Arizona are both not on that list (and if UMMC isn't, Hopkins isn't either...)

Are there multiple organizations that can deem a facility a trauma center?
 
Some hospitals may be designated a trauma center by the state but not by the American College of Surgeons, though I'm not really sure how this works.

Found this though:

http://www.amtrauma.org/tiep/reports/DesignationStatus.jsp

It seems to indicate that the majority of designated trauma centers are not ACS verified. Interesting.

I think more and more centers may choose to move away from ACS given that most trauma patients are not sent for immediate surgery, so does it really make sense to have the trauma system certified and run by a surgical organization.
 
Some hospitals may be designated a trauma center by the state but not by the American College of Surgeons, though I'm not really sure how this works.

Found this though:

http://www.amtrauma.org/tiep/reports/DesignationStatus.jsp

It seems to indicate that the majority of designated trauma centers are not ACS verified. Interesting.

I think more and more centers may choose to move away from ACS given that most trauma patients are not sent for immediate surgery, so does it really make sense to have the trauma system certified and run by a surgical organization.

To clarify:

The American College of Surgeons only verifies that the Trauma Centers listed meet the criteria for Level 1, etc. (ie, Level 1 has to have Neurosurg, Gen Surg, Anesthesia, Rads and Ortho available in house, has to have Plastics, OMF, etc. available for consults, must have residency programs, etc.). Being on the list means nothing more than that...you have completed the paperwork.

You will note that none of the Pennsylvania Level 1 Trauma Centers are on the list (PA has its own Trauma program, so may not feel the need for ACS verification) and some of the biggest trauma programs in the country Baltimore Shock (of special interest since RA Cowley was the progenitor of the modern day Trauma Center), Ryder, UT Memphis are also not listed.

The ACS verification is sort of a new thing. I'm not aware of the politics behind it (ie, why more programs haven't gone through the process) but would not use the list as anything more than a "yes, we have done a site visit and verified that the program listed has the stuff it says it has". This is no measure of quality, experience, etc. They are not responsible for the designation of what a trauma center is, the level, etc.
 
1. The powers-that-be who are in charge of emergency medicine training make sure that each program sees "enough" trauma.

2. If you delve deep into any program to see where it is weak very rarely will trauma be the issue.

3. The number of procedures/skills you need to develop to handle trauma is pretty limited. Central lines, chest tube, maybe thoracotomy/DPL is about it. That isn't to say that it's "easy" but after having placed I think 3 chest tubes I could throw one into a person with a traumatic tension pneumo without a great deal of personal strife. I'm not saying I'm ready to do them unsupervised, just that after having done a few I'm getting it. Compare this to something like a subclavian or hell even a pelvic exam where one might argue that you really need to do 25+ to really get a good sense of what is going on. Most residents probably graduate without ever having done a thoractomy and I'll be that if you surveyed all the practicing EM docs in the US only about 20-30% would feel truly ready to do this procedure.
 
Many residency programs that are level II centers have outside rotations or offer experiences at a Level I center. And many residencies are now supplementing procedural experience with simulation education.
 
Just to add, I'm a PGY 1 at a Level II center and got to experience a real traumatic thoracotomy. I mean, it's really just hit / miss what happens to roll through the doors amd which hospital happens to be closest. Level I's may have a higher probability of seeing those things, but at the end of the day, it's luck and who's closest.
 
Trauma really is boring. Modern trauma that is. Back in the good old days, when crack wars were raging in all of the cities in america, there was tons of penetrating trauma. Now adays, in comparison, there is very little fighting over crack. The prices crashed and the ability for people to make a living off of selling crack really became limited (There is a fascinating discussion in the book "Freakonomics" on this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics

There used to be a lot of procedures performed on blunt trauma as well in the past. See the link below from the EM journal club.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=609418

Below is a quote from that article:

"At my busy American College of Surgeons Level I trauma center, the incidence of such intervention is just 3.0% of adult trauma team activations and just 0.35% of pediatric activations,24 numbers comparable to those reported elsewhere.9,25,26 Most of these emergency surgeries are for penetrating trauma. If one considers blunt mechanisms separately, the frequencies decrease to 1.2% of adults and 0.09% of children. For blunt injury at my trauma center, emergency operative intervention by a trauma surgeon averages once every 7 weeks for adults and less than once every 3 years for children.24 Ciesla et al25 report that at their urban Level I trauma center, "a trauma surgeon must evaluate 10 trauma patients, admit 9, and provide up to 65 days worth of inpatient care for every one that needs an acute care operation.""

So, if you are a medical student, wanting to experience cool emergent procedures, you might see one every 7 weeks if you do a rotation with a trauma surgeon. Imagine rounding on patients for 7 weeks, and seeing several trauma activations a day. The main intervention 90% of the time is CT stem to stern and admission for observation. The only difference about doing that rotation in a level 2 trauma center is that there won't be 4 residents, 2 attendings, and 3 medical students in your way (not to mention the 2 nurses, 1 nursing student, 1 ER tech, 1 lab tech, and 2 radiology techs trying to push past everyone to start IVs, get vitals, draw blood, and get x-rays.)
 
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So, if you are a medical student, wanting to experience cool emergent procedures, you might see one every 7 weeks if you do a rotation with a trauma surgeon. Imagine rounding on patients for 7 weeks, and seeing several trauma activations a day. The main intervention 90% of the time is CT stem to stern and admission for observation. The only difference about doing that rotation in a level 2 trauma center is that there won't be 4 residents, 2 attendings, and 3 medical students in your way (not to mention the 2 nurses, 1 nursing student, 1 ER tech, 1 lab tech, and 2 radiology techs trying to push past everyone to start IVs, get vitals, draw blood, and get x-rays.)

Whoa, i'm going to disagree with that one. I did a month rotation in Surgical ICU at NJMS-Newark last June. Although It's a general surgery ICU, about 3/4ths of the beds were taken up by trauma patients. Additionally, although I was in ICU, I was very friendly with some of the trauma surgeons and was invited to come down to the ED or to the OR when anything interesting was going on. A LOT of cool stuff happened - we had several thoracotomies, many "rescue" laps, quite a few emergent chest tubes, etc., being put in, a guy with severe compartment syndrome of one leg, a few crazy salvage/reconstruction operations, etc. Overall, a lot of fun. Now, i'm not a surgeon and i'm not training to be one, but from an emergency medicine perspective, I think a lot of cool stuff does still happen at some trauma centers. When I did a month away rotation at USC-LA County in the fall, I saw a lot of crazy things go down in the ED, with the resus bay nearly always being full and everyone juggling for space for the next shooting/stabbing/car accident patient.

I don't think this experience is true for the majority of hospitals out there - even the majority of Level I trauma centers - but it's true for a few of them, and if you like that sort of thing, then that's where you should aim to be. If not, then don't worry about it.
 
Trauma really is boring. Modern trauma that is. Back in the good old days, when crack wars were raging in all of the cities in america, there was tons of penetrating trauma. Now adays, in comparison, there is very little fighting over crack. The prices crashed and the ability for people to make a living off of selling crack really became limited (There is a fascinating discussion in the book "Freakonomics" on this topic.

Not in Detroit, at least the part of little penetrating trauma. I don't usually follow the prices of crack, usually... :)
 
Also not in Brooklyn... and definitely not in LA!
 
Forgive me my hyperbole. I mis-spoke, as was stated in the article, in BLUNT TRAUMA, you have to wait around for weeks for something to need acute intervention. Yes, there are more interventions for penetrating trauma.

I spent 9 weeks in the trauma center in Las Vegas Nevada as a med student, and never saw a thoracotomy. Sure, there was a few chest tubes, and intubations, but I guess I don't consider those too terribly exciting. The overwhelming majority of trauma was still blunt. Yes, I saw one or two penetrating trauma a day, but they are either really dead by the time they get there, or they missed all major organs. The number of seriously injured patients that survive to get to the ER, and have life-saving operations done in the first few hours is pretty stinking low.

I bring up Las Vegas, because it is about a violent a city as you could want and my experience jived with what was reported in the article.

ED thoracotomies, I would consider exciting, but they are still a rare occurence. One that survives an ED thoracotomy done by an ER doc? Approaching publishable. Why do I say that? Because why should we get excited about watching surgeons perform procedures. If somebody's life depends on me doing a thoracotomy, I'd bet that they are going to die. Sure, I can hack in there, clamp off the aorta, and see a ginormous hole in their heart, but what will I do from there? If it is me, the ER doc, who has never placed a stitch in a heart in my life, that is going to be expected to stitch their heart back together and then resuscitate them, they are screwed (all while not letting them lose perfusion to their brain for more than 2 minutes).

As long as you go to a place where you get plenty of chest-tubes, intubations and central lines, you will be adequately trained.

I agree with southern Doc, not very many ER docs feel comfortable with thoracotomies, and I would add that being at a level 1 trauma center where more of them happen, is not going to prepare you any better.

I strongly believe that you would actually get a better trauma experience at a level 2 trauma center, without all the residents and med-students in the way and hogging procedures.

At a level 1 trauma center, there is generally a huge trauma team that pounces on everything that comes through the door, and takes ultimate responsibility for the patient. I documented on hundreds of trauma patients..."Disposition per trauma surgery team." In other words, my attending and me had no control over whether or not the patient was admitted or discharged. That routine of running into the trauma bay, and running through the ritual of ATLS several times a day, got very old very quickly. I think that a trauma experience without surgery scut monkeys would be much more challenging, hands-on and ultimately, would help you more for the challenge of being an attending.
 
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Not to hijack this thread but the majority of trauma centers aren't ACS verified. Quite frankly I think it is a waste of time. One hospital I work at has been functioning as a level 2 trauma center for decades for the county. However the powers that be want the "ACS designation" to make themselves sound good. However it is a huge pain in the *****. According to ACS guidlines, all ER docs that take trauma must have a valid ATLS and must be certified in a specialty. This may not sound like a big deal at first. One colleague I work with did their residency training at a huge inner city trauma center where at this EM program they have their own trauma cert training program that goes above and beyond ATLS curricuim. Which I got to admit ATLS is preety useless when you compare it to what EM docs lear through the course of residency. Well anywho because he is not "ATLS" certified, he hasn't been able to take trauma for the past 6 months which is a huge pain when there are only two docs on and one gets slammed with all the traumas. ACS verification in my opinion is a waste of time.
 
At a level 1 trauma center, there is generally a huge trauma team that pounces on everything that comes through the door, and takes ultimate responsibility for the patient. I documented on thousands of trauma patients..."Disposition per trauma surgery team." In other words, my attending and me had no control over whether or not the patient was admitted or discharged. That routine of running into the trauma bay, and running through the ritual of ATLS several times a day, got very old very quickly. I think that a trauma experience without surgery scut monkeys would be much more challenging, hands-on and ultimately, would help you more for the challenge of being an attending.

I think that this is an excellent point, but also VERY institution-dependent. My medical school's main hospital is a Level 1 Trauma Center - during my entire EM rotation, I saw two real trauma activations, and both of those were immediately jumped on by surgery - in other words, no thank you. At NJMS-Newark, the surgery program is pretty strong, and trauma surgery in particular is very strong and they definitely run all the traumas. At USC/LAC, EM did pretty much everything, ran the entire resus, etc. EM is also really strong at Downstate and they run all of the traumas as well. So it's really variable, and just because a hospital is a "Level 1" trauma center doesn't mean that EM or Trauma will be in charge. There are programs where EM only has the airway and trauma runs the resus, programs where EM and trauma switch off, and then some (the minority) where EM runs everything. There are definitely Level II's that see a decent amount of trauma, but if you're looking for a true 'knife and gun club', then the hard-core inner-city hospitals with strong, well-established EM departments are the way to go.
 
Neophytes would also be well advised to be warned that "Level 1 Trauma Center" does not = penetrating trauma.

I did my entire surgical residency at just such a hospital.

I have never seen, nor done an ED thoracotomy.

Many such places, even "big names" get a vast majority of blunt trauma which, as Jarabacoa describes, can be mind-numbingly boring.
 
Here's my experience with both. I am just a first-year studet, but I do have a little input.

Before I came to med school, I worked at the nation's busiest Level II trauma center (by what standards this was measured, I do not know, but it is a busy ED with a good amount of trauma, indigent care, etc.). Not a big teaching hospital, although we did have residents from the military spending a month at a time with us for trauma (from both San Antonio and Ft. Hood). We also had UTMB students doing an optional rotation track with us for, I think, a year.

What we lacked for Level I was full-time, in-house neurosurgery, and probably a few teaching programs. But the big thing was the neuro.

This place was a pretty good experience for the students. Lots of autonomy, no residents to crowd you, and I don't think I ever saw more than one student at a time on the EM service, in four years of volunteering and employment.

We got something like 80,000+ patient visits/year, and I think we had 6-7 trauma bays, with 3-4 of them being bigger than the others.

Now I am a first-year student at GA-PCOM, in a suburb of Atlanta. I spend one night a week volunteering at Grady Memorial Hospital, which is one of the nation's busiest Level I trauma centers. It is a core rotation site for Emory students, and I think Morehouse too. Additionally, there are about five undergrad schools within a stone's throw from this hospital, and there are a million pre-med volunteers from them, running all over the place. Most of them don't do anything, or are too nervous to get involved though.

At this place, there are residents and interns from every service you can imagine down there, at any given time. There are medical students doing core rotations, and visiting students doing electives. Probably half the attendings have an MPH or a PhD, and they are talking about something academic, or health-care related all the time. I sometimes try to stay within earshot of these conversations, because they can be pretty interesting.

Between the docs, interns, students, nurses, ancillary staff, volunteers, and shadowers, there are a million people in the department all the time. There are also some undergrads who wear blue coats and just seem to stand around. I don't have a ****ing clue what they are supposed to be doing, if anything. They aren't shadowing. I don't see them writing anything, or talking to the docs or nurses.

Grady is the epitome of the "broke, indigent care hospital." They have ****ty equipment, and I think 2 EKG machines that look like something off of the Flintstones. You hook up the 12-lead, and expect a bird to pop out, dip his beak in some ink, and start doing the tracing.

At my other hospital back home, the patient population was similar, and although it isn't a big money maker, there is plenty of very nice equipment, a shiny 64-slice CT scanner, less financial restrictions on medication, ordering tests, etc.

But at Grady, these guys LOVE to teach. They love students. They love what they do. I have no doubt that they are making a lot less money than they could make at any number of other places. Now that some of them know I'm a medical student, they will take time out to show me stuff. They are always asking if I have any questions. I couldn't ask for a better position as a volunteer.

Back at the ED back home, there wasn't much academic talk. If anyone asked me if I had any questions, it was usually a nurse or a resident. Some of the attendings are still my good friends (I'm 31, so I wasn't really some pre-med kid to them), and we'd go out drinking together or ride bikes together, but they weren't really big on the academic stuff.

At Grady, even before they knew I was a medical student, they'd be happy to answer any questions I'd have. I can't say enough good things about their faculty.

While my Level II that I worked at has some advantages, and in terms of patient volume, would squash a lot of Level I's, I think these Level I's are typically geared towards academics and education.

But the rumor is that my old hospital may be coming under the umbrella of UT-Southwestern soon, and they're planning on making the move to Level I, establishing more training, and maybe even a full medical school campus there. Austin definitely has the infrastructure to support it. There are several big hospitals very nearby each other. But the faculty at this place are far different from what I see at Grady.

Just my $0.02
 
Austin definitely has the infrastructure to support it. There are several big hospitals very nearby each other. But the faculty at this place are far different from what I see at Grady.

That's changing as we speak (but nothing put in place here will compare to Grady, thank God).

Expect UTMB-Austin to run a fully academic Level I ED at Brackenridge in the near future. And, there will be a med-school here, but it's 6-8 years away (many think that it will be located across the street in the current parking lot next to the Erwin Center.
 
It's funny that the two places I intend to (try to) do aways, Las Vegas and Corpus Christi, have been mentioned during this conversation. The funnier thing is that I figured Vegas would be my big city, level 1 trauma, penetrating trauma galore site and Corpus would be my laid back, smaller city, more mundane and run-of-the-mill site. Apparently I had this backwards. Thanks for shedding some light on this for me.
 
It's funny that the two places I intend to (try to) do aways, Las Vegas and Corpus Christi, have been mentioned during this conversation. The funnier thing is that I figured Vegas would be my big city, level 1 trauma, penetrating trauma galore site and Corpus would be my laid back, smaller city, more mundane and run-of-the-mill site. Apparently I had this backwards. Thanks for shedding some light on this for me.

Corpus gets tons of penetrating trauma. During a two month period when I was there they did 6 thoracotomies, 5 of whom actually walked out of the hospital. Their trauma program is pretty hard core and the residents get to do everything.

Vegas likewise has an extensive gun and knife club, but they have surgery residents who run the trauma team so the experience is different.
 
Corpus gets tons of penetrating trauma. During a two month period when I was there they did 6 thoracotomies, 5 of whom actually walked out of the hospital. Their trauma program is pretty hard core and the residents get to do everything.

Vegas likewise has an extensive gun and knife club, but they have surgery residents who run the trauma team so the experience is different.

Sounds like they are two perfect choices for my two EM aways. Second year can't end soon enough.
 
During a two month period when I was there they did 6 thoracotomies, 5 of whom actually walked out of the hospital.

That's just 'cause you were shooting the drug seekers in your trauma bays with a scalpel in the other hand. :)

Take care,
Jeff
 
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