Match list 2014

[Dr. Zombie]

I didn't say all categories. And yes, I could give you examples such as anesthesia at Washington and Colorado, Neurology at Mayo, surgery at UCLA, pediatrics at Stanford, etc. I'm not going to make a comprehensive list because you can do your own homework.

Again, you are just focusing on higher ranked programs. Why aren't you taking into consideration the preference of location??

Again, I probably won't apply to Mayo because of it's location. If it was in one of my desired states, I'd apply to it in a heartbeat. I'm sure as I mentioned previously, there are people who choose location over program ranking.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[withoutlyrics]

Can anyone speak to what aspects of a medical school may help graduates place into decent university ACGME programs for moderately competitive/less competitive specialties (along the lines of EM/IM/Peds/Obgyn/Psych)? (I am currently accepted to a DO program and waiting on another decision, so am quite new to this)
To put it another way, what institutional barriers may hinder someone from reaching for that goal?

Edit: I do understand that personal motivation plays a big role in all of this

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Again, you are just focusing on higher ranked programs. Why aren't you taking into consideration the preference of location??

Again, I probably won't apply to Mayo because of it's location. If it was in one of my desired states, I'd apply to it in a heartbeat. I'm sure as I mentioned previously, there are people who choose location over program ranking.

So your argument is everyone chose location, yet there are better programs at almost all locations in the US. Like I said, if this feels like a good match for you and your goal is a community AOA program, it works out for you. I will venture to say most people don't want that, which I think is more logical given how many people use DO as backup.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Can anyone speak to what aspects of a medical school may help graduates place into decent university ACGME programs for moderately competitive/less competitive specialties (along the lines of EM/IM/Peds/Obgyn/Psych)? (I am currently accepted to a DO program and waiting on another decision, so am quite new to this)
To put it another way, what institutional barriers may hinder someone from reaching for that goal?

Edit: I do understand that personal motivation plays a big role in all of this

USMLE becomes a must. Your clinical experiences will be evaluated too. Research is expected in many fields and many allopathic students have it. Also, if a program has taken graduates from your COM, that can help your case.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

So your argument is everyone chose location, yet there are better programs at almost all locations in the US. Like I said, if this feels like a good match for you and your goal is a community AOA program, it works out for you. I will venture to say most people don't want that, which I think is more logical given how many people use DO as backup.

That's not my argument at all. Anyone with common sense will know that each of those applicants have their own unique reasons for matching at different programs of different locations and tiers, such as:
- Applicant did not do better on the boards and had to match lower-tier even though s/he wanted higher.
- Applicant ranked overconfidently and ended up with their 5th option.
- Applicant felt s/he was a better fit at the XYZ program which is lower ranked than ABC program.
- Applicant was competitive and still felt like matching IM at a less-known program due to location.
- Applicant wanted well-known program for prestige over location.
- Applicant wanted well-known program for prestige AND location.

My goal is not a community AOA program. I also agree with you, most people do not want AOA community programs either, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional. However, I'm pro-ACGME and I do not deny the fact that my DO school has given me a good opportunity despite my academic performances from over 4 years ago. Nonetheless, I am going to choose a mid-tier program over top-tier if it comes down to location. That is something I will say upfront.

Furthermore, I will be open-minded with you. I will side with you if we look at the past 2-3 match lists (when time permits) for TouroCA, Western and CCOM and compare it to the last 2-3 match lists for SOMA. If we see that the trend is consistent that the majority of SOMA students indeed match mostly in lower-tier programs compared to the other 3, then you have my support. I believe that's a fair way of judging.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

That's not my argument at all. Anyone with common sense will know that each of those applicants have their own unique reasons for matching at different programs of different locations and tiers, such as:
- Applicant did not do better on the boards and had to match lower-tier even though s/he wanted higher.
- Applicant ranked overconfidently and ended up with their 5th option.
- Applicant felt s/he was a better fit at the XYZ program which is lower ranked than ABC program.
- Applicant was competitive and still felt like matching IM at a less-known program due to location.
- Applicant wanted well-known program for prestige over location.
- Applicant wanted well-known program for prestige AND location.

My goal is not a community AOA program. I also agree with you, most people do not want AOA community programs either, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional. However, I'm pro-ACGME and I do not deny the fact that my DO school has given me a good opportunity despite my academic performances from over 4 years ago. Nonetheless, I am going to choose a mid-tier program over top-tier if it comes down to location. That is something I will say upfront.

Furthermore, I will be open-minded with you. I will side with you if we look at the past 2-3 match lists (when time permits) for TouroCA, Western and CCOM and compare it to the last 2-3 match lists for SOMA. If we see that the trend is consistent that the majority of SOMA students indeed match mostly in lower-tier programs compared to the other 3, then you have my support. I believe that's a fair way of judging.

If you have the data, I'll happily discuss it, but honestly, outside of my COM, I'm not going to spend time investigating.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

If you have the data, I'll happily discuss it, but honestly, outside of my COM, I'm not going to spend time investigating.

That makes two of us.

 

[pattr]

I'd wait till the entire list is out before making that assessment. Sounds like there was an ortho match and several more ACGME EM matches that weren't included. Nonetheless, I think the med/peds match at USC and radiology match at UofA are impressive. Match lists are so subjective anyways. You'll always see great matches at any school. Its really up to the individual to succeed.

I didn't say all categories. And yes, I could give you examples such as anesthesia at Washington and Colorado, Neurology at Mayo, surgery at UCLA, pediatrics at Stanford, etc. I'm not going to make a comprehensive list because you can do your own homework.

Any Med-Peds match for a DO, especially one at USC, is no joke. US MDs salivate over med-peds.

But yeah, wait for the entire match list to be released before you pass judgment... and this is coming from a Touro-CA student who is extremely proud of all of my classmates for their matches.

 

[DocEspana]

I guess it was coincidence that CCOM, TouroCA and Western had more self-motivated students than LECOM or SOMA in nearly every category.

Dont let the people with hyper-reflexia of the pride gland get to you. I agree with your commentary.

 

[DocEspana]

Any Med-Peds match for a DO, especially one at USC, is no joke. US MDs salivate over med-peds.

But yeah, wait for the entire match list to be released before you pass judgment... and this is coming from a Touro-CA student who is extremely proud of all of my classmates for their matches.

Can't tell if youre being serious. Because I hope to goodness youre being sarcastic. Though I agree with thumbs-upping USC part.

 

[DocEspana]

I also should clarify, Im not saying that getting med-peds isnt awesome. Its just a very very specific subset of people who want to do both. Its not exactly salivated over. "forgotten about" and "overlooked" are more accurate terms. Ive heard many people rationalize that the med-peds programs are for people who really wanted to be in the IM program but couldnt, and were willing to do extra years of training to get the IM training at the location. (You dont see the opposite way because peds is a bit less competitive than IM at these locations)

 

[Dharma]

I guess it was coincidence that CCOM, TouroCA and Western had more self-motivated students than LECOM or SOMA in nearly every category.

If people think that this is mostly about self motivation and quality of students they're kidding themselves. Some schools offer far better clinical education. And still, others may even create multiple barriers and obstacles that stand in the way of attaining solid electives/selective outside of their lacking network of substandard OPTIs that they seem to be oh-so-proud of. To land an impressive residency from such a school becomes THAT much harder.

For premeds reading this: do your investigative work to find the schools that you will give the best opportunity to chase your dreams, and avoid those that will create unnecessary strife that they think is somehow for your own good. COMs are certainly not all created equally, some not even close.

 

[pattr]

I also should clarify, Im not saying that getting med-peds isnt awesome. Its just a very very specific subset of people who want to do both. Its not exactly salivated over. "forgotten about" and "overlooked" are more accurate terms. Ive heard many people rationalize that the med-peds programs are for people who really wanted to be in the IM program but couldnt, and were willing to do extra years of training to get the IM training at the location. (You dont see the opposite way because peds is a bit less competitive than IM at these locations)

I'll concede "salivate" probably wasn't the right word. I just meant it is a fairly competitive field.

76% of matches in Med-Peds this year were US MD Seniors - that's a greater percentage than anesthesiology and radiology... and right up there with general surgery, ob/gyn, and EM. Most people who apply to Med-Peds are US MD Seniors who are either applying exclusively Med-Peds or Med-Peds along with one other field (usually IM or Pediatrics), and only 88% of US Seniors who prefer Med-Peds actually match into it (2011 Charting Outcomes). Average Step 1/2 of matched US Seniors is 230/242.

Those that want Med-Peds want it bad. So DOs who can beat out that population are impressive to me. That's all.

 

[Dharma]

Can you please provide specific examples of what you've seen in CCOM Touro and western that you feel beats LECOM and soma out of the water in all categories?

My response above.

 

[DOFutureEM22]

I didn't say all categories. And yes, I could give you examples such as anesthesia at Washington and Colorado, Neurology at Mayo, surgery at UCLA, pediatrics at Stanford, etc. I'm not going to make a comprehensive list because you can do your own homework.

I think we should wait till the entire match list is out before jumping to conclusions. I think its important to realize that SOMA is a much smaller school, the class size hovers around 100, vs. the 250+ at COMP, so its easy to go down the list and count out better matches when you have more than double the class size. I honestly don't think most ACGME programs will discriminate or categorize DO schools and group them into tiers. DO schools are usually categorized together. A program may be more inclined to take students from a particular school especially if they are familiar with students in the location (IE rotations in similar region) but for the most part I would argue that it doesn't make as big of a difference as people make it out to be.

Just like someone mentioned, you don't see an ACGME optho and neurosurgery match on every COM list let alone together. Also the neurosurgery match was in CA, which is arguably the toughest area to break into. You might see 10 DOs match into an ACGME surgical speciality on a lucky season and if you look, most end up in community programs in the middle of nowhere. Neurosurgery was also one of the 5 most competitive specialties this year (neurosurgery, ENT, plastics, Ortho, Rad Onc) according to NRMP.

I am a first year from that school and I hear that most of our upperclassman were regionally biased and many ended up in their location of choice. At the end of the day, I think it's up to the individual to motivate themselves. I think the name of the school plays less of a factor. Some schools may prepare for boards better than others, but at the end of the day a student (even at a crappy school) can perform well when he/she needs to and land a solid residency spot.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I don't want to be negative to my colleagues, but it seems SOMA's only strong matches were 1 ophthalmology and 1 neurosurgery. Something to consider if you'll attend this institution.

Aren't you a pre-med? The people graduating from SOMA aren't your colleagues.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Again, you are just focusing on higher ranked programs. Why aren't you taking into consideration the preference of location??

Again, I probably won't apply to Mayo because of it's location. If it was in one of my desired states, I'd apply to it in a heartbeat. I'm sure as I mentioned previously, there are people who choose location over program ranking.

Why are you giving that poster any credence? He has recently been accepted into Western and hasn't even started med school yet.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

USMLE becomes a must. Your clinical experiences will be evaluated too. Research is expected in many fields and many allopathic students have it. Also, if a program has taken graduates from your COM, that can help your case.

Quit being a jerk and speaking about stuff you know nothing about. The truth is, you can't lump peds and psych with OB and ER. Apples and oranges. For OB and ER on the ACGME side, you should take the USMLE, do research, whatever. For peds and psych, you'll be fine with just the COMLEX unless your goal is a top 10 program or something.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Dont let the people with hyper-reflexia of the pride gland get to you. I agree with your commentary.

Here we go again. Just because someone is defensive about a PRE-MED spouting off about a school's match list doesn't mean they have "hyper-reflexia of the pride gland." It means they don't like arrogant idiots putting down a school and their students when they haven't set foot in med school yet. You're probably one of the 5% of residents who thinks a match list means anything about the school itself. Congratulations. Now go to pre-allo and pre-osteo and join the 95% crowd there who think the same.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Why are you giving that poster any credence? He has recently been accepted into Western and hasn't even started med school yet.

I just don't understand why people are so stubborn to the idea that a match list doesn't give the complete story and no one should be quick in putting down a school because of how students matched on a single match list.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Quit being a jerk and speaking about stuff you know nothing about. The truth is, you can't lump peds and psych with OB and ER. Apples and oranges. For OB and ER on the ACGME side, you should take the USMLE, do research, whatever. For peds and psych, you'll be fine with just the COMLEX unless your goal is a top 10 program or something.

Oh the status card, and you call me a "pre-med." That certainly is how evidence based works. Looks like medical school is teaching you well. SOMA or LECOM? I remember those days when people said "you don't know anything until you've gone through interviews and get accepted." Then I did it and nothing changed. That's what happens when you base opinions on facts. People don't need to be a med student or a doctor to know if a match list looks good or not. They just need to be able to interpret the data appropriately.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Here we go again. Just because someone is defensive about a PRE-MED spouting off about a school's match list doesn't mean they have "hyper-reflexia of the pride gland." It means they don't like arrogant idiots putting down a school and their students when they haven't set foot in med school yet. You're probably one of the 5% of residents who thinks a match list means anything about the school itself. Congratulations. Now go to pre-allo and pre-osteo and join the 95% crowd there who think the same.

LOL This is great. When it's me, it's because I'm a pre-med. When it's the resident, it's because he's the 5% in the minority. Nice way of setting yourself up to never be wrong.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I just don't understand why people are so stubborn to the idea that a match list doesn't give the complete story and no one should be quick in putting down a school because of how students matched on a single match list.

He's pre-med. He posts a billion times a day on pre-osteo and pre-allo. They know everything over there. Just ask 'em.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Oh the status card, and you call me a "pre-med." That certainly is how evidence based works. Looks like medical school is teaching you well. SOMA or LECOM? I remember those days when people said "you don't know anything until you've gone through interviews and get accepted." Then I did it and nothing changed. That's what happens when you base opinions on facts. People don't need to be a med student or a doctor to know if a match list looks good or not. They just need to be able to interpret the data appropriately.

Actually, I don't go to either of those schools. I just call a spade a spade. You think you're the first know-it-all pre-med to masquerade around pretending you know more than you do? Hardly. You want to talk about interpreting data? How about you learn to COLLECT data first. There's a reason scientists don't draw conclusions on research studies before they're done. Try thinking about that for a while.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

LOL This is great. When it's me, it's because I'm a pre-med. When it's the resident, it's because he's the 5% in the minority. Nice way of setting yourself up to never be wrong.

Oh, there are ignorant residents just as there are ignorant pre-meds. It's not surprising you two found one another.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Actually, I don't go to either of those schools. I just call a spade a spade. You think you're the first know-it-all pre-med to masquerade around pretending you know more than you do? Hardly. You want to talk about interpreting data? How about you learn to COLLECT data first. There's a reason scientists don't draw conclusions on research studies before they're done. Try thinking about that for a while.

Oh, there are ignorant residents just as there are ignorant pre-meds. It's not surprising you two found one another.

I guess you get points for trying. Show me your collected data proving me wrong.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I guess you get points for trying. Show me your collected data proving me wrong.

How did you get past the VR section on the MCAT? #smh

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

How did you get past the VR section on the MCAT? #smh

Do you have data backing up your claim or are we going to continue with ad hominem? I don't think we'll magically see that the unreported people all matched into Harvard Dermatology.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Do you have data backing up your claim or are we going to continue with ad hominem? I don't think we'll magically see that the unreported people all matched into Harvard Dermatology.

Hey genius, considering I don't attend the school and an official and complete list hasn't been released to the public, do you think I'm going to produce one through osmosis? I'm pretty sure even pre-pre-meds (aka high-school SDNers) followed that. Once again I ask, how did you get past the VR section on the MCAT?

 

[group_theory]

Folks,

stop the name calling and personal insults. This thread is meant to display each school's match list, not discuss one's qualification on determining the "awesomeness" of the match list.

Stick to discussing or posting the match list

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hey genius, considering I don't attend the school and an official and complete list hasn't been released to the public, do you think I'm going to produce one through osmosis? I'm pretty sure even pre-pre-meds (aka high-school SDNers) followed that. Once again I ask, how did you get past the VR section on the MCAT?

Like I said, I doubt we'll see a sea of dermatology matches at Harvard. As you see, I don't need the complete to make reasonable inferences and deductions. By the way, the other schools weren't 100% lists either. You're probably going to say they all matched at the worst places to even out the lists.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I guess you get points for trying. Show me your collected data proving me wrong.

In fairness, you made the claim that SOMA is a questionable school based on a match list. If you collected data to present your case, then we can talk. But you can't make a claim and when I ask for legitimate evidence, your response was "I dont have time. Do your own homework." If you make a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up with citations and prove US wrong.

 

[NurWollen]

FWIW, a SOMA grad is currently a first year derm resident at UC Davis. While I do believe that an awesome match depends more on the student than the school, a match like that shows me that SOMA is at least as awesome as any other DO school out there.

 

[DocEspana]

Some people live in a fantasy world here that makes them happier to believe things work a certain way. The problem is everyone thinks the other side are the ones. Elizabeth had proven she lives in a world where statistics and data don't have prognostic significance. I live in a world where people say personal preference primarily dictates outcomes is a case of "an outlier, or an outright liar"

Once again her and I are quite opposed on this. Doesn't mean she is totally wrong, only that I think she is ignoring facts and she thinks I'm ignoring humanity. The truth lies in the middle I'd guess.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Like I said, I doubt we'll see a sea of dermatology matches at Harvard. As you see, I don't need the complete to make reasonable inferences and deductions. By the way, the other schools weren't 100% lists either. You're probably going to say they all matched at the worst places to even out the lists.

You said that people should think twice before going to SOMA. That isn't a reasonable inference or deduction. The match list is incomplete and even if it was complete, it doesn't tell you anything about the school; only about this particular class at the school (and even that is questionable). Also, matching allo optho and allo neurosurgery is a pretty big deal, as is matching anywhere in CA in IM or peds. With that said, I'm done discussing a school with an incomplete match list posted that someone most likely took from FB. I think the posts speak for themselves and hope that any pre-med reading who has hopes of going to SOMA isn't dissuaded by inaccurate and unfair assumptions posted here.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

In fairness, you made the claim that SOMA is a questionable school based on a match list. If you collected data to present your case, then we can talk. But you can't make a claim and when I ask for legitimate evidence, your response was "I dont have time. Do your own homework." If you make a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up with citations and prove US wrong.

My initial claim was that, if you are choosing schools, you may want to consider the match list as an important variable. Then we got into a discussion about what that reason might be, but yes, I did ultimately said I suspect it could be something about education. Why else would they not get a match of the quality we saw from other schools? But to say that means I'm saying it is a "questionable school" is something different. Questionable can imply a lot of things.

When I said to do your homework, I said that about building a specific list.

 

[DocEspana]

FWIW, a SOMA grad is currently a first year derm resident at UC Davis. While I do believe that an awesome match depends more on the student than the school, a match like that shows me that SOMA is at least as awesome as any other DO school out there.

Any school can make great outcomes. The resources are there. Some appear to foster better results more frequently, but I don't know of any school truly deficient in the resources to the point where a gifted student wouldn't succeed. We should all seek to be more like whomever that kid is (unless he is a jerk)

 

[Dr. Zombie]

My initial claim was that, if you are choosing schools, you may want to consider the match list as an important variable. Then we got into a discussion about what that reason might be, but yes, I did ultimately said I suspect it could be something about education. Why else would they not get a match of the quality we saw from other schools? But to say that means I'm saying it is a "questionable school" is something different. Questionable can imply a lot of things.

When I said to do your homework, I said that about building a specific list.

In my personal opinion which is based on upperclassmen and residents informing me, a match list cannot really tell you any deficiencies a school may have. As DocEspana says above, any single school can give you enough resources which you can maximize to be successful or you can be proactive in maximize your education with outside resources. For example:

1. There are schools where rotations could be subpar, but when the student is able to rotate elsewhere electively to fill the gaps of their clinical education, then that person is maximizing their success.
2. There are schools where research is lacking, and the student can proactively search outside opportunities and end up with a publication or two when its time to rank programs.
3. There are schools that flood students with material that will not be on the boards, but students can use outside resources to prepare for the boards adequately.

Therefore, I do not feel a match list can reflect on the education that the school provides because as student leaders, if there are gaps in our school education whether pre-clinically or clinically, we can still be proactive in remediating our education to ensure that our match is successful.

Any school can make great outcomes. The resources are there. Some appear to foster better results more frequently, but I don't know of any school truly deficient in the resources to the point where a gifted student wouldn't succeed. We should all seek to be more like whomever that kid is (unless he is a jerk)

Exactly. I agree with you.

 

[SLC]

In my personal opinion which is based on upperclassmen and residents informing me, a match list cannot really tell you any deficiencies a school may have. As DocEspana says above, any single school can give you enough resources which you can maximize to be successful or you can be proactive in maximize your education with outside resources. For example:

1. There are schools where rotations could be subpar, but when the student is able to rotate elsewhere electively to fill the gaps of their clinical education, then that person is maximizing their success.
2. There are schools where research is lacking, and the student can proactively search outside opportunities and end up with a publication or two when its time to rank programs.
3. There are schools that flood students with material that will not be on the boards, but students can use outside resources to prepare for the boards adequately.

Therefore, I do not feel a match list can reflect on the education that the school provides because as student leaders, if there are gaps in our school education whether pre-clinically or clinically, we can still be proactive in remediating our education to ensure that our match is successful.



Exactly. I agree with you.

This is exactly my point. I don't think any DO school is so far and away better than the others, well maybe MSUCOM, or perhaps TCOM and UMDNJ but that's based more in resources at the school's disposal than anything else.

But there really isn't that big of a difference between say CCOM and DMU vs. SOMA and TouroNV. In fact, I know that SOMA shares many rotation sites with AZCOM, Western COMP, and Western COMP-NW; and probably many others. I know because I rotate with COMP-NW students all the time and have classmates that rotate with the others. Heck, there are 4 students on the rotation I'm on right now, me and 3 students from OHSU.

At the end of the day, we all have different goals and aspirations. And I could be wrong but I just see my classmates as down-to-earth, no-nonsense people who just want to be good physicians; not world renowned researchers or experts in their field. These guys want to match at a place they want to settle in, despite its "glamor factor", get through residency, and then get to work.

Me, I'm interested in IM. I have scores that can probably get me a mid-upper tier ACGME university, and perhaps when interview season ends and it's time to submit my rank list I'll put one of those in my top spot. But I'm honestly looking forward to applying to a particular lower tier, to lower mid-tier ACGME university right now because it hits that sweet-spot of being reasonably DO friendly, in a place my family would be comfortable living in, and has all the fellowship opportunities and takes it's own into them. I happen to have a USMLE that's a full 30 points higher than what they recommend to be competitive at their program, but I don't care about that. If I match there it will likely be by my own choosing, not because I was limited to such a place by my school.

Why would I pick up and move to say NYC, a place I have zero interest in visiting much less living in, just because the match would appear "stronger" on my school's match list? Especially when I can get the training I want, in a place I want to live, at a place that might be considered less glamorous by SDN standards. I'll come out a fully licensed and trained physician either way, so what would be my gain in taking the higher ranked place over the one I'd rather be at?

Another example, one of the smartest people in my class: Got straight A's through M1 and M2, seems to have every little fact we ever learned in those years memorized. To my knowledge she demolished the COMLEX but didn't take the USMLE because she really likes OMM and family medicine and intends to do an AOA family medicine residency. But people here will see her match next year and assume she was some DO screwup from a weak school. And that's the type of error inherent in using match lists to judge the "quality" of a school.

Knowing that, I fail to see how anyone can make any real, meaningful assessment of a school based on it's match-list.

 

[DocEspana]

In my personal opinion which is based on upperclassmen and residents informing me, a match list cannot really tell you any deficiencies a school may have. As DocEspana says above, any single school can give you enough resources which you can maximize to be successful or you can be proactive in maximize your education with outside resources. For example:

1. There are schools where rotations could be subpar, but when the student is able to rotate elsewhere electively to fill the gaps of their clinical education, then that person is maximizing their success.
2. There are schools where research is lacking, and the student can proactively search outside opportunities and end up with a publication or two when its time to rank programs.
3. There are schools that flood students with material that will not be on the boards, but students can use outside resources to prepare for the boards adequately.

Therefore, I do not feel a match list can reflect on the education that the school provides because as student leaders, if there are gaps in our school education whether pre-clinically or clinically, we can still be proactive in remediating our education to ensure that our match is successful..

But I think, at the same time you can take multiple years and look at them as a whole. Every school has 5-8% who are outliers and will maximize everything that comes their way (or are just damn lucky). But look at year after year, if a program just has the same 7-10 impressive matches and 125 "anywhere from bad to above average" matches you should wonder why others have consistently a higher percentage of them. Some have a much higher percentage. and you have to do it over multiple years because there can be times when a class just doesnt have the outliers, or a class happened to have a nucleus of outliers. But when you look over years there are some that appear to have a higher percentage going to places that are much more impressive (remember, percentage, not gross number. NYCOM needs a lot more than most other schools since they have ~100 extra students over most other COMs).

The answer to 'why' is the hard part. Theories will abound from "theyre just better", to "they are generally in more metropolitan areas so they are closer to more university centers" to "people who go to certain schools are overwhelmingly seeking to practice in areas with lower name-recognition". I dont think anyone has any way to prove theories, so anything at or beyond this point is just fun speculation.

 

[MrWonderful]

I came here interested to see match lists and was encumbered by your rambling and egotistical arguing. Just stop It's quite pathetic

 

[Dr. Zombie]

But I think, at the same time you can take multiple years and look at them as a whole. Every school has 5-8% who are outliers and will maximize everything that comes their way (or are just damn lucky). But look at year after year, if a program just has the same 7-10 impressive matches and 125 "anywhere from bad to above average" matches you should wonder why others have consistently a higher percentage of them. Some have a much higher percentage. and you have to do it over multiple years because there can be times when a class just doesnt have the outliers, or a class happened to have a nucleus of outliers. But when you look over years there are some that appear to have a higher percentage going to places that are much more impressive (remember, percentage, not gross number. NYCOM needs a lot more than most other schools since they have ~100 extra students over most other COMs).

The answer to 'why' is the hard part. Theories will abound from "theyre just better", to "they are generally in more metropolitan areas so they are closer to more university centers" to "people who go to certain schools are overwhelmingly seeking to practice in areas with lower name-recognition". I dont think anyone has any way to prove theories, so anything at or beyond this point is just fun speculation.

Exactly. I agree with you. That was my reply to AlbinoHawkDO. I told him, if you single out a match list, it isnt fair to put down a school by it. On the other hand, if you collect data from 2-3 years worth of match lists and you see that the greater proportions are indeed going into lower to mid tier residency positions, then you have some foundations to base whatever opinions you may have.

But like you said, there are just things that can't be proven, and therefore cannot try to put down a school unfairly.

 

[NurWollen]

This is exactly my point. I don't think any DO school is so far and away better than the others, well maybe MSUCOM, or perhaps TCOM and UMDNJ but that's based more in resources at the school's disposal than anything else.

But there really isn't that big of a difference between say CCOM and DMU vs. SOMA and TouroNV. In fact, I know that SOMA shares many rotation sites with AZCOM, Western COMP, and Western COMP-NW; and probably many others. I know because I rotate with COMP-NW students all the time and have classmates that rotate with the others. Heck, there are 4 students on the rotation I'm on right now, me and 3 students from OHSU.

At the end of the day, we all have different goals and aspirations. And I could be wrong but I just see my classmates as down-to-earth, no-nonsense people who just want to be good physicians; not world renowned researchers or experts in their field. These guys want to match at a place they want to settle in, despite its "glamor factor", get through residency, and then get to work.

Me, I'm interested in IM. I have scores that can probably get me a mid-upper tier ACGME university, and perhaps when interview season ends and it's time to submit my rank list I'll put one of those in my top spot. But I'm honestly looking forward to applying to a particular lower tier, to lower mid-tier ACGME university right now because it hits that sweet-spot of being reasonably DO friendly, in a place my family would be comfortable living in, and has all the fellowship opportunities and takes it's own into them. I happen to have a USMLE that's a full 30 points higher than what they recommend to be competitive at their program, but I don't care about that. If I match there it will likely be by my own choosing, not because I was limited to such a place by my school.

Why would I pick up and move to say NYC, a place I have zero interest in visiting much less living in, just because the match would appear "stronger" on my school's match list? Especially when I can get the training I want, in a place I want to live, at a place that might be considered less glamorous by SDN standards. I'll come out a fully licensed and trained physician either way, so what would be my gain in taking the higher ranked place over the one I'd rather be at?

Another example, one of the smartest people in my class: Got straight A's through M1 and M2, seems to have every little fact we ever learned in those years memorized. To my knowledge she demolished the COMLEX but didn't take the USMLE because she really likes OMM and family medicine and intends to do an AOA family medicine residency. But people here will see her match next year and assume she was some DO screwup from a weak school. And that's the type of error inherent in using match lists to judge the "quality" of a school.

Knowing that, I fail to see how anyone can make any real, meaningful assessment of a school based on it's match-list.

The part I bolded, that's pure gold.

 

[pattr]

This is exactly my point. I don't think any DO school is so far and away better than the others, well maybe MSUCOM, or perhaps TCOM and UMDNJ but that's based more in resources at the school's disposal than anything else.

But there really isn't that big of a difference between say CCOM and DMU vs. SOMA and TouroNV. In fact, I know that SOMA shares many rotation sites with AZCOM, Western COMP, and Western COMP-NW; and probably many others. I know because I rotate with COMP-NW students all the time and have classmates that rotate with the others. Heck, there are 4 students on the rotation I'm on right now, me and 3 students from OHSU.

At the end of the day, we all have different goals and aspirations. And I could be wrong but I just see my classmates as down-to-earth, no-nonsense people who just want to be good physicians; not world renowned researchers or experts in their field. These guys want to match at a place they want to settle in, despite its "glamor factor", get through residency, and then get to work.

Me, I'm interested in IM. I have scores that can probably get me a mid-upper tier ACGME university, and perhaps when interview season ends and it's time to submit my rank list I'll put one of those in my top spot. But I'm honestly looking forward to applying to a particular lower tier, to lower mid-tier ACGME university right now because it hits that sweet-spot of being reasonably DO friendly, in a place my family would be comfortable living in, and has all the fellowship opportunities and takes it's own into them. I happen to have a USMLE that's a full 30 points higher than what they recommend to be competitive at their program, but I don't care about that. If I match there it will likely be by my own choosing, not because I was limited to such a place by my school.

Why would I pick up and move to say NYC, a place I have zero interest in visiting much less living in, just because the match would appear "stronger" on my school's match list? Especially when I can get the training I want, in a place I want to live, at a place that might be considered less glamorous by SDN standards. I'll come out a fully licensed and trained physician either way, so what would be my gain in taking the higher ranked place over the one I'd rather be at?

Another example, one of the smartest people in my class: Got straight A's through M1 and M2, seems to have every little fact we ever learned in those years memorized. To my knowledge she demolished the COMLEX but didn't take the USMLE because she really likes OMM and family medicine and intends to do an AOA family medicine residency. But people here will see her match next year and assume she was some DO screwup from a weak school. And that's the type of error inherent in using match lists to judge the "quality" of a school.

Knowing that, I fail to see how anyone can make any real, meaningful assessment of a school based on it's match-list.

I definitely agree with most everything you said in this post, SLC. However, I would just be wary of the thought process in the bolded text... oftentimes what is posted on program websites or FREIDA etc. for "competitive" scores is more of a minimum requirement, and you also have to consider that even DO-friendly ACGME programs, especially university ones, will hold DOs to a higher standard score-wise. Otherwise great post!

 

[Elevencents]

Can we get back to match lists? Start a new thread if you want.

 

[MrDocMD]

I came here interested to see match lists and was encumbered by your rambling and egotistical arguing. Just stop It's quite pathetic

Someone with the handle MrWonderful is calling others egotistical?

 

[Futrdoc89]

All this talk about prestige and glory reminds me of this Nobel prize nominee named Denis Mukwege who is a Congolese gyn. He had all the options to practicing medicine in Paris and making lots of money but instead chose to stay in his conflict-ridden country and set up clinics for rape victims where he performed reconstructive surgeries and in return got death threats from the local warlords. His patients think of him like a god.

I don't know about you people but no amount of matching to derm or neurosurg will give me as great of a pleasure than making a difference in the lives of my patients. After all the only thing that we leave behind is our effect on others, not which residency you came from.

 

[Poliscidoc]

You all have won the internet for today so can we please get back to match list?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ignore spelling and/or grammar

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

In my personal opinion which is based on upperclassmen and residents informing me, a match list cannot really tell you any deficiencies a school may have. As DocEspana says above, any single school can give you enough resources which you can maximize to be successful or you can be proactive in maximize your education with outside resources. For example:

1. There are schools where rotations could be subpar, but when the student is able to rotate elsewhere electively to fill the gaps of their clinical education, then that person is maximizing their success.
2. There are schools where research is lacking, and the student can proactively search outside opportunities and end up with a publication or two when its time to rank programs.
3. There are schools that flood students with material that will not be on the boards, but students can use outside resources to prepare for the boards adequately.

Therefore, I do not feel a match list can reflect on the education that the school provides because as student leaders, if there are gaps in our school education whether pre-clinically or clinically, we can still be proactive in remediating our education to ensure that our match is successful.



Exactly. I agree with you.

But all the stuff that you mention is part of the education. 1. The school is not providing the best clinical spots. 2. The school doesn't provide enough research opportunities. 3. The school is teaching unnecessary things. How are these not education related to you? Maybe you thought I meant they didn't teach basic sciences correctly? I'm confused.

I'm all ears for 3 match list years judgments, but I'm doubtful this particular year was the one year that everything became unimpressive.

 

[michow87]

My opinion is that the match list is a poor indication of a school's quality. Good board scores, good audition rotations, etc. are due to students who understand the importance of being an advocate for their own success/education. These students will prioritize their board studying over school grades, be proactive about attaining quality audition rotations and research, and ultimately be the sole reason for this success. Med school provides you with an opportunity. The rest is up to you.

TL;DR: the match list is an indication of the quality of students, not the school.