MSU CHM Grand Rapids Vs. Wayne State

[johnnymath360]

First off, I consider myself extremely, extremely, fortunate to have been accepted to three schools, OUWB, Wayne State, and MSU CHM - Grand Rapids for medical School - definitely the culmination of an incredible amount of blood and sweat to make it to this point...

after turning down OUWB last week, I was left with MSU until today - I just got pulled off the waitlist for Wayne, and I feel very much obliged - for those that are still waiting for their shot - to make a decision soon.

so... what are your own opinions of these schools and where do you think I should go? I'm just hoping to gain a bit more insight - because personally, the pro's and con's of each school weigh out equally

Thanks in advance! - and the best of luck to those still waiting!

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[Geekchick921]

Moving to SSD.

 

[KelMD]

As a Michigan native, I'll bite. Grand Rapids is quickly becoming a decent center for medicine. The city is clean and safe, with a lot of new construction. A lot of young professionals from the suburbs are moving and staying downtown. The school is small so you will get individualized attention (if you like that sort of thing). Wayne is a huge school (not my cup of tea) and in a large, but much less safe city. It has a decent clinical reputation but is H/P/F with an internal ranking which I have been told by many students there gets pretty competitive. I am not sure of the grading at MSU. Anyway, if I had these two choices, I would probably choose MSU. It is better to be trained in the referral hospital for West Michigan, where U of M is far away enough to not completely overshadow (I'm from West Michigan and honestly in my experience everyone goes to Spectrum for anything serious unless it is a super complex/last hope sort of situation).

 

[membername3]

Let me give you my perspective:

Both schools will provide you with very different experiences. They are both extremely large schools in terms of class size, except MSU is spread across two campuses.

At MSU, DO and MD students (and even vet students?) take many of the same classes together during the first two years. A lot of the classes are taught in EL and streamed via a large video projection to GR, but I heard they were trying to bring more teachers out to GR. Also, during anatomy at MSU, you will be observing professionally done dissections rather than dissecting yourself. I think this kind of robs you of an important experience, but overall not a huge point to consider.

MSU has historically been committed to training grads who will go into primary care. There is a small amount of research going on, but you'll have much more luck finding research at Wayne if you're interested in that.

In terms of the basic science years, Wayne is super traditional in terms of curriculum, and I believe MSU is completely PBL during year 2.

Anyways, you should really be looking at the third and fourth years when trying to make this decision, and this is where Wayne wins in my opinion.

After second year, MSU students are spread across the state to small community hospitals in places like Saginaw, Flint, Traverse City, etc. Now some might say this will allow you to have more hands on experience which may or may not be true, but I'd personally choose to be at a big, well known hospital system such as Henry Ford or the DMC in an urban environment such as Detroit where you'll see everything.

Reputation of med schools in Michigan has historically been: UM > Wayne > MSU. I think Wayne is usually regarded as better than MSU due to the differences in the clinical years.

 

[KelMD]

Also, I don't think Wayne's reputation is so great that it would guarantee you a better residency than MSU.

 

[membername3]

Also, I don't think Wayne's reputation is so great that it would guarantee you a better residency than MSU.

Of course not. In terms of landing a desired residency, the name of the school you go to matters very little unless you're going top 10 or 20. Even then it doesn't mean much. It obviously comes down to how you perform in med school.

 

[avidHuman]

I am a michigan resident and I had to go through a similar decision in choosing a school. I would be interested in hearing why you decided to turn down OUWB over those two schools. Good luck in your decision-making process, although I don't think you can go wrong either way.

 

[ConformMe]

I chose Wayne for a few reasons.

1) I'm not entering Primary Care. MSU-CHM are practically focused on training Primary Care physicians, and they do a good job at it. I believe 73% of matches from MSU are towards Primary Care. Wayne, on the otherhand, has a much better reach in various fields. Their association with all DMC branches, Henry Ford, Karmanos, and others provides a wide variety of clinical and research opportunities. Clinically, there is no doubt that WSU students get more experience in a variety of specialties. EDIT: Here's a link to the highest Primary Care Matchings: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...dical-schools/primary-care-residents-rankings

2) Wayne is one of only a few schools in the US that have hands-on cadaver dissections. In MSU, they are observation labs. Again, Wayne wins in this respect by giving experience to its students.

3) Wayne Med students recently opened the Robert R. Frank Student Run Free Clinic. This is a clinic that provides primary care to uninsured citizens of Detroit. This is awesome because it allows medical students to gain patient experience, while at the same time connect with the city and to those who otherwise would not have had access to medical care.

4) WSU-SOM is practically connected by a bridge/tunnel to DMC Receiving and is surrounded by hospitals. If you were to choose to volunteer or seek research, it would be so easy to do so.

5) Wayne has this neat Co-Curricular program that allows you to choose from 4 paths (Fabric of Society, ME2, MPAC, and HuMed) depending on what you are interested in, ranging from community outreach to political involvement to academic involvement. You would fulfill the requirements of this program in M1 and M2. This program allows you to gain credit for EC involvement and replaces one M4 elective. Which means in M4, you'll have time to prepare for interviews, etc. A lot of people find this useful. EDIT: Here's a link in case you are interested: http://www.med.wayne.edu/admissions/registration_forms/2011 PDFs/Co-Curricular 2011.pdf

6) I really enjoyed the environment at Wayne when I interviewed/toured. The students were laid back and so were my peers. I was told by some M1s that the school actually funds parties for student organizations after exams. Once I accepted admissions, I went on the FB page and it seems like there really is a great group of people entering this year. There has already been two gathering/socials and there are currently plans for more (including one in Toronto for those Canadians that can't make it to Detroit for the other Meet & Greets).

In the end, I think it's up to you and the feel you got from the school Everyone has their own personal preference. Goodluck deciding, and congratulations either way!!

 

[Bungie]

I chose Wayne for a few reasons.
2) Wayne is one of only a few schools in the US that have hands-on cadaver dissections.

Really? I thought the majority still do, at least all the schools I interviewed at still do hands-on dissections.

 

[johnnymath360]

My apologies in advance for a long, long, post - I'm going to try to answer the OUWB question and give my findings from my visit yesterday to MSU CHM GR (where I've been placed)

I'm a SE Michigander - just a bit of background I missed...

OUWB... well, considering that I live 5 minutes away from the school, and have family friends that are involved in their faculty - I've known for quite awhile that the program was going to have a good start, and will become a competitive program in the near future... but here's what made me say no:

1. No educational/ lecture material president
- Unlike established schools - there's no set president on lecture material - what you need to go over, what you don't, notes, etc. - everything is being generated as you go along - so far more curveballs possible in the first few years on tests etc. PLUS - you're EXPECTED to be in lecture... not that we all aren't expected to be in lecture anyway, but Wayne and MSU students openly admit to using lecture streaming to be able to wake up at a reasonable time, watch it faster to get through material and have time to have somewhat of a life, etc. - plus - you get notes ahead of time, and can glean advice from the MS2's

2. No higher level mentoring students
- I really like the idea of being able to get an idea of how to operate in medical school from the classes that came before you - befriend a couple of MS2's and suddenly you are ahead of the game for the rest of med school. Obviously OUWB needs to get through it's first couple years for this to occur on a regular basis...

3. Clinical hospital too far away/ very little pre-clinical skills environment
- I live in Rochester and work for Beaumont's ambulance company, and trust me when I say... BeauRo is quite a jog from the campus to be convenient... and Woodward can be a hassle (especially trying to fit an ambulance through on priority one's - much gnashing of teeth and heavy breathing involved). Troy Beaumont isn't so bad to get to - and Grosse Pointe - well, I think everyone has to take a jog down Cadieux street to see what happens when you cross Mack ave. (Detroiters will know what I'm talking about.
- Also - Not once did I see a clinical skills room where you'll be taught how to interact with patients via simulation or the like... I know that they're still renovating some rooms to make these available... but I would have liked to see something.

4. The medical school is confined to one floor/ the anatomy lab two buildings away.
- Well... more of a vanity thing - but that brand new building that they're putting up - is not in ANY WAY associated with the medical school... that's the school of nursing... the med students will be confined to one floor of O'Dowd and the anatomy labs two buildings away. That means one lecture hall, and limited dedicated study space...

5. The Residency problem
- Maybe this is just unfamiliarity with the system - but my question on interview day as to "will graduating from OU limit my ability to get into residency programs... due to newness, lack of name-recognition, etc." was not well answered - essentially no because the school is going to form relationships with programs, and you shouldn't worry... not a single mention of personal effort - so it's my thought that a realistic residency option for many of the OUWB students is going to be a pipeline right into Beaumont Hospitals or some of these programs that they're going to lean on (That's why they showed you the surgical skills center that you're not going to be using!) - but I'd assume that with a crazy amount of effort, superb board scores and extracurricular involvement - you can essentially go anywhere.

oh - did I mention that I live 5 minutes away... personally I needed to get away from home to go somewhere for school - I'd go stir crazy if after four years of undergrad, I was going to spend the next four years less than 10 minutes away from my parents

so - this is a really harsh criticism of the school- I apologize to all the OUWB students, you guys are going to get a good education though, and having only 49 other colleagues is means that you're going to have A LOT of personal attention... I'm leaving out a lot of positives to save on space - but my prediction is that OUWB will out-compete Western and Central (OU's primary academic competition) - but won't be able to rise to the caliber of UofM, Wayne or MSU... they've just been around too long

 

[jskinny21]

My apologies in advance for a long, long, post - I'm going to try to answer the OUWB question and give my findings from my visit yesterday to MSU CHM GR (where I've been placed)

I'm a SE Michigander - just a bit of background I missed...

OUWB... well, considering that I live 5 minutes away from the school, and have family friends that are involved in their faculty - I've known for quite awhile that the program was going to have a good start, and will become a competitive program in the near future... but here's what made me say no:

1. No educational/ lecture material president
- Unlike established schools - there's no set president on lecture material - what you need to go over, what you don't, notes, etc. - everything is being generated as you go along - so far more curveballs possible in the first few years on tests etc. PLUS - you're EXPECTED to be in lecture... not that we all aren't expected to be in lecture anyway, but Wayne and MSU students openly admit to using lecture streaming to be able to wake up at a reasonable time, watch it faster to get through material and have time to have somewhat of a life, etc. - plus - you get notes ahead of time, and can glean advice from the MS2's

2. No higher level mentoring students
- I really like the idea of being able to get an idea of how to operate in medical school from the classes that came before you - befriend a couple of MS2's and suddenly you are ahead of the game for the rest of med school. Obviously OUWB needs to get through it's first couple years for this to occur on a regular basis...

3. Clinical hospital too far away/ very little pre-clinical skills environment
- I live in Rochester and work for Beaumont's ambulance company, and trust me when I say... BeauRo is quite a jog from the campus to be convenient... and Woodward can be a hassle (especially trying to fit an ambulance through on priority one's - much gnashing of teeth and heavy breathing involved). Troy Beaumont isn't so bad to get to - and Grosse Pointe - well, I think everyone has to take a jog down Cadieux street to see what happens when you cross Mack ave. (Detroiters will know what I'm talking about.
- Also - Not once did I see a clinical skills room where you'll be taught how to interact with patients via simulation or the like... I know that they're still renovating some rooms to make these available... but I would have liked to see something.

4. The medical school is confined to one floor/ the anatomy lab two buildings away.
- Well... more of a vanity thing - but that brand new building that they're putting up - is not in ANY WAY associated with the medical school... that's the school of nursing... the med students will be confined to one floor of O'Dowd and the anatomy labs two buildings away. That means one lecture hall, and limited dedicated study space...

5. The Residency problem
- Maybe this is just unfamiliarity with the system - but my question on interview day as to "will graduating from OU limit my ability to get into residency programs... due to newness, lack of name-recognition, etc." was not well answered - essentially no because the school is going to form relationships with programs, and you shouldn't worry... not a single mention of personal effort - so it's my thought that a realistic residency option for many of the OUWB students is going to be a pipeline right into Beaumont Hospitals or some of these programs that they're going to lean on (That's why they showed you the surgical skills center that you're not going to be using!) - but I'd assume that with a crazy amount of effort, superb board scores and extracurricular involvement - you can essentially go anywhere.

oh - did I mention that I live 5 minutes away... personally I needed to get away from home to go somewhere for school - I'd go stir crazy if after four years of undergrad, I was going to spend the next four years less than 10 minutes away from my parents

so - this is a really harsh criticism of the school- I apologize to all the OUWB students, you guys are going to get a good education though, and having only 49 other colleagues is means that you're going to have A LOT of personal attention... I'm leaving out a lot of positives to save on space - but my prediction is that OUWB will out-compete Western and Central (OU's primary academic competition) - but won't be able to rise to the caliber of UofM, Wayne or MSU... they've just been around too long

i don't usually like to comment on these things but this is almost entirely not factual and extremely uninformed. I get that this is an opinion and you are trying to justify/explain your decision but at least use info that is true

1)the curriculum may not be set in stone but the information is the same throughout all schools. lecture is mandatory because it is going to be active learning not just a professor speaking for 3 hours. all lectures are video/audio recorded so you can still stream from home if you have issues/learn better that way(after class). all notes are available online at the beginning of a block, not sure home much longer you would want them.

2)this ones good

3)troy is 15 min max. ro is like 15-25. gp is only gonna be needed very rarely. there is a clinical skills center building(16 rooms) at troy beaumont that was recently renovated with 60,000 dollars worth of video/audio/patient care equipment and there is an extensive standardized patient program in place for next year. from week one a full day is spent at royal oak or troy working on clinical skills including learning all of the procedural stuff in the surgical skills lab.

4)the building stuff does suck but everything is renovated with the newest tech and a new anatomy lab is in the works. as for study space there is about 20-30 total rooms dedicated to only med students between the main building and the library.

5)residency is pretty much on the individual student and yeah i bet a lot of people will end up at beaumont but that is also one of the more desirable residencies in michigan. but the wayne state students that went to beaumont for their rotations had matches that were beyond outstanding. beaumont was also one of/if not the most popular rotation site for wayne and has some extremely well known physicians in a ton of different fields

 

[johnnymath360]

Results of visit with MSU CHM GR...

So essentially everything that ConformMe wrote is my reason for wanting to attend Wayne State - plus the proximity of the Children's hospital, and the expansive family of physicians that have come out of Wayne state - their reputation truly proceeds itself...

but... the Grand Rapids location for CHM can, and does square up to the arguments for Wayne in a big way.

First the positives:

1. The medical mile in GR is akin to the DMC in Detroit - with Spectrum, DeVos Children's hospital, Meijer heart pavilion, cancer center, etc., etc. etc. - the only thing they're lacking is the battlefield hospital that is Detroit receiving. All the buildings are interconnected via skyways.

2. GR is an incredible place to live. Hate to say it, but there's no way I'm going to live in Detroit - so the current plan would be to live with friends in Royal Oak... not bad - but it still takes 15+ minutes to commute to school - whereas - with GR I could live 5 minutes away and bike/ walk/ take the dash (public bus) to school - and run back home to get lunch before labs. Very convenient. Plus - the city is very much alive, with a huge number of college satellite campuses downtown and an expansive nightlife, bar scene, and plenty of recreation for those after exam parties.

3. The Secchia center is new, beautiful, and technologically superior than the facilities I saw at Wayne. Plus, it felt as though there were well-lit, quiet study rooms plugged into every nook and cranny of that building. Not-to-mention that if I wanted to stay there until 2 or 3 in the morning, I would have no problems walking back home alone...

4. The financial aid office was extremely helpful - and they have a great reputation for getting your refund back to you before the semester starts... I've always heard bad things about Wayne's financial aid department not getting refunds back for weeks into the year - kind of bad of you're depending on your loans to pay rent, etc. (they call it getting Wayned' - kind of funny).

5. Clinical spaces are super nice, the rooms are bugged and under video surveillance for review purposes and look like you standard doctor's office exam room. They also have sim rooms designed to mimic geriatric and pediatric hospital situations - all of these areas have computer terminals right outside the door to practice entering electronic histories.

6. Prosection - yes, this personally is a boon because I took human dissection in college and have already dissected a number of cadavers. Kinda sucks having to go to a no-digging-in experience - BUT!!!! Inside info - it's only for the first semester! - Second semester you can take a dissection elective that will allow you to get the dissection experience.

7. Although I don't have many specifics, opportunities to volunteer at free-clinics were mentioned to be available. But - nothing close to as developed as Wayne.

8. Looking at the match lists - I would refute that 73% of the residency matches are primary care - but I still have concerns about the visible lack of specialty programs.

9. Price - approximately $2,000 cheaper per semester than Wayne - not a big deal... but helps in the long run

Negatives/ concerns:

1. Telelectures - 75% of the time the person lecturing will be in East Lansing - which means that they're not around after the lecture to ask questions or clarify things. There are content experts present in the room, but your best bet is to email the lecturer.

2. The last point leads to another problem - the lack of teaching doctors/ professors in GR to get to know - to promote letters of recommendation, internships and shadowing, etc. I was told that the doctors within GRMEP (the medical colloquium for the Grand Rapids area) are more than happy to take students - and I got a couple of emails to contact.

3. Lack of specialty doctors. I want to go into pediatric neurosurgery as a career, and I need not say that these programs are extremely difficult to get into. I would imagine that - looking at the match lists, Wayne has 3 people from 2011 that were placed into neurosurgical programs - while MSU hasn't had anyone for the last 4 years of match records - VERY dismal indeed. So there's something wrong here... either the education isn't conducive to excelling to the level necessary to get into these programs - or students accepted to MSU are just generally interested in primary care or other specialty niches... hard to believe that NO ONE over the last four years has come in wanting Neurosurgery, and left with something they didn't want to do. Wayne is the exact opposite - there are HUNDREDS of specialty doctors at the DMC.

4. Board scores - still waiting to hear from admissions as to what the average board scores were for MSU - but a colleague who chose Wayne over MSU said that they were lower.

5. The Grand Rapids location is VERY young - having only opened their doors last year, they ported MS1's and 2's from East Lansing to their campus... the 3's and 4's were already there... This indicates that they're still forming pre-clinical relationships with the community and that the students there are just starting to establish the educational experience on this campus...

6. PBL - problem-based learning... so I already know that there are large debates on SDN over the effectiveness of this method, but I'm not really sure if this method is helpful to getting pathology down for USMLE Step 1... I mean - going through pathology in a case study format is certainly helpful - but I'm concerned that spending 4 hours learning concepts that could be fit into 2 hours of lecture cuts down on volume - granted that the quality/ application of information is better.

7. Clinical years - there is a definite possibility that at CHM you'll be placed at a different location for years 3 and 4. Which sucks. But - I was told that if you have significant ties to the community - I.E, a physician that you've been shadowing and want to continue to work with, ties to clinical opportunities with the hospitals, etc., etc. that your preference to stay will be looked at more favorably. Still... seems like a roll of the dice. With Wayne I wouldn't be living with the fear of having to move after 2 years to somewhere new. Plus... Detroit receiving - you'll see EVERYTHING - end of story

so... essentially it comes to an undeniable quality of education and certainty of connections with the big problem of commute, convenience, and "oldness" at Wayne versus a lot of possibilities, a great deal of amenities, but a whole lot of uncertainty at MSU...

I'll be meeting with an admissions rep from Wayne (hopefully) by the end of the week to fill in the blanks - but - thanks to everyone for sticking with the discussion, you guys are helping me to make an informed decision, and I appreciate it! Either way - here's to the class of 2015!

 

[PlayUltimate15]

Good luck on your decision! It sounds like you've put in a whole lot of thought. Please let us know what you decide.

 

[Supisak]

does MSU give you a certain amount of time to hold the acceptance? I am assuming you were pulled off of their alternate list while holding a wayne acceptance? I would think the standard is two weeks to make a final decision and then notify the school, is that correct?

 

[Margra]

I chose Wayne for a few reasons.

1) I'm not entering Primary Care. MSU-CHM are practically focused on training Primary Care physicians, and they do a good job at it. I believe 73% of matches from MSU are towards Primary Care. Wayne, on the otherhand, has a much better reach in various fields. Their association with all DMC branches, Henry Ford, Karmanos, and others provides a wide variety of clinical and research opportunities. Clinically, there is no doubt that WSU students get more experience in a variety of specialties. EDIT: Here's a link to the highest Primary Care Matchings: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...dical-schools/primary-care-residents-rankings

I just wanted to refute this point. According to your own link, 41.8% of MSU CHM students go in to primary care (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...chools/primary-care-residents-rankings/page+3). Yes this is still higher than the 28% of Wayne students, but there is a big misconception that going to MSU means you go in to primary care, where they had an impressive match list last year.

 

[ConformMe]

Really? I thought the majority still do, at least all the schools I interviewed at still do hands-on dissections.

I was told that only a few Med Schools have hands-on cadaver dissections in the first year. I tried to look for a source, but it's difficult on a subject like that without asking every school individually.

I just wanted to refute this point. According to your own link, 41.8% of MSU CHM students go in to primary care (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...chools/primary-care-residents-rankings/page+3). Yes this is still higher than the 28% of Wayne students, but there is a big misconception that going to MSU means you go in to primary care, where they had an impressive match list last year.

You're right. I was looking at MSU-COM. Regardless, a lot of MSU-CHM's focus feels to me like it's towards Primary, and they don't have as many clinical reaches in as many specialties as Wayne does at big-time hospitals.

 

[avidHuman]

I chose OUWB over MSU GR and Wayne. First, I wanted to address the issues that were referred to as a disadvantage in this thread. Pre-clinically, I agree that there is no precedent for the curriculum (by the way johnnymath, this is how the word is spelled, not president lol), but I don't agree that it is a bad thing. At the end of the day, the school's curriculum was accredited, meaning that we will be learning the same stuff as we would in any other school. While we may not have students that came before us and will be available as mentors, we will have something even better, professors that will serve as mentors. The fact that the inaugural class will only have 50 students, will mean that all the students will know all the professors intimately. Case in point, I know the dean at OUWB on a first name basis and have been communicating with him, because he first initiated the contact at the interview day. When I was at GR and at Wayne, I was turned off by the much greater number of students and much more limited access to professors. I mean, I did not even have the opportunity to meet the dean or professors at either med school at MSU or Wayne, let alone communicate with them.

I think it's ironic that OUWB was considered at a disadvantage clinically in this thread. Let's make something clear: UofM > Beaumont > DMC > MSU. It's true that Beaumont requires a drive from the OU campus, but at the end of the day you get better clinical experience at OUWB. Every Tuesday, starting from the first week, we will be in the newly built multi-million dollar simulation center at Troy Beaumont. Every Thursday, starting from the first week, we will spend a full day at Royal Oak Beaumont, gaining clinical experience. MSU CHM and Wayne do not compare in clinical experience during MS1 and MS2. Oh and the Surgical Center that was mentioned, I don't know where you were on interview day, but that is definitely going to be available to med students.

The med school facility was also mentioned negatively, but I would just like to say that while it is small, it is all new and very inviting. They have created a comfortable and intimate place for us to study and take classes, which complements the goals of the med school nicely. It really doesn't bother me that they are building another facility, because O'Dowd will suit the 50 student body perfectly. It should also be noted that we will have our own facilities at Beaumont as well.

On anatomy, you mentioned that Wayne is one of the only hands-on cadaver lab. I don't know where you get your information but thats just not the case. First of all, by hands on, i assume you mean dissection instead of prosection. Guess what, MSU is prosection, but provides an elective for those who want to do dissection. And guess what else, OUWB also does dissection. In fact, the anatomy experience at OUWB is superior to that of MSU and Wayne. Because of the organ-based curriculum at OUWB which lasts the first two years, the students are concurrently taking the anatomy lab for both years. At Wayne and MSU, you get through the gross anatomy lab within the first year and then you never look back, which to me is a disadvantage.

The most ironic part of the post, was when it was mentioned that residency at Beaumont would be a disadvantage. Maybe you should do some more research, but Beaumont is a top-rated hospital with extremely competitive residency programs. MSU CHM and Wayne grads would be lucky to snag one. I'm not saying that OUWB students will be guaranteed a spot or that all students will want to go to Beaumont for residency, but I do think that they will have a better chance of getting one through the connections they will make with Beaumont doctors during the 4 years. Lastly, as a charter class, the administration will have a huge incentive in pumping out the most competitive graduates they can, because that will ultimately decide the prestige of the school, so I think that will ultimately put OUWB over the top. Only time will tell, but I strongly believe that the residency match at OUWB will outperform Wayne and MSU CHM (the fact that OUWB has a more competitive acceptance rate than MSU and Wayne should already be a hint).

 

[Ahmed786]

Only time will tell, but I strongly believe that the residency match at OUWB will outperform Wayne and MSU CHM (the fact that OUWB has a more competitive acceptance rate than MSU and Wayne should already be a hint).

I was with you untill this point...maybe its because they only take 50 students to the ~300 that wayne and MSU CHM take?!?!

And as for the match lists, your going on what you HOPE it will be whereas wayne and msu CHM already can look at previous years to at least analyze trends...this doesnt mean OU wont match equally or better than Wayne or CHM but that you have to take a leap of faith here because you have no previous years on which to base your ASSUMPTIONS, because that is all they are.

 

[membername3]

The fact that you're going to a brand new medical school will be an inherent disadvantage in the match in my opinion. Yes, Beaumont will take a lot of their own which is great, but I think residency directors outside of SE Michigan might be hesitant on picking someone from a school on which they have never had any prior students to compare to or from a school they may have never heard of. Also, as all of these new medical schools keep opening up, the match is getting more and more competitive, and I think residency directors may be more likely to draw from more established schools.

Yes, Beaumont is a great hospital system, but it's also a suburban hospital system with alot of rich patients. The patient population at the DMC and Henry Ford is going to be completely different, and you would probably encounter a lot of things that you wouldn't normally see at Beaumont. I think this provides an advantage in terms of clinical experience. The chance to be at an inner city hospital was a big selling point for me when it came to Wayne. And there's also Oakwood if someone at Wayne wants to experience a suburban hospital.

I don't really know how you can say that the anatomy experience at OUWB will be superior to that of Wayne or MSU. You learn all of the same material, just spread out over two years as opposed to 3 months. I guess the systems based curriculum might give you more context when you're in lab, but I honestly don't think I'd enjoy having to be in the anatomy lab every week for two years.

I also appreciate the fact that at Wayne or MSU, one has the freedom to stream lectures from home if they choose to and create their own schedule. Let's face it, learning the basic science during the first two years of med school is essentially an exercise in independent study, and I don't really think it should be necessary to have to get up at 7 or 8 every morning, drive to school, and sit through mandatory lectures.

Also, the fact that OUWB is a "private" med school and charges a lot more for tuition than all of the other schools in MI is kind of a turn off for me. But it seems like they've been giving out some scholarships which kind of makes up for it.

Again this is all personal opinion. I'm sure OUWB will end up being a great school, but personally, I would be pretty hesitant to go to a brand new med school if I had other options.

 

[avidHuman]

The reason i chose a new school over other "established" schools was because I felt that Beaumont carried a big enough name to not be that new. Beaumont is well known in the residency world, and has been training med students for a long time. It's true that the preclinical years at OUWB are new, but what I have gleaned from residency matches is that the preclinical years matter very little compared to your clinical performance, and where your clinical training took place.

Again, for some reason, you're putting DMC > Beaumont in terms of more interesting cases, which I just don't think is true. Yes, DMC has a less wealthy population pool in an urban area, so you may see more gunshots and stabbings, but that does not mean that a huge Trauma 1 level hospital system in Beaumont will not provide excellent trauma experience. What the DMC lacks where Beaumont trumps, is the fact that Beaumont is a tertiary referral system. As a higher ranked hospital, Beaumont will see the more interesting, complicated, referred cases that Beaumont doctors are more qualified to treat over DMC docs. If you disagree, you need only look at the desired clerkship rotations at Wayne to see that Beaumont is at the top of that list.

In addressing the mandatory lectures, I can only respond by saying it depends on personal preference. I saw this is a personal advantage because through my undergraduate years I learned about myself that I perform better when I go to lectures, so I need that fixture to ultimately do better in med school. Regardless, lectures are still recorded and provided to us for review or when absent.

On tuition, yes it is higher because it is private, and while I can only speak for myself, I have heard that a lot have been given scholarships. Personally, I received a substantial scholarship that made tuition comparable to the IS tuition of the public schools in michigan.

 

[avidHuman]

Reading back on my posts, I feel I have been a little antagonistic, which was never my intention. I'm not here to argue about which school is better. I think Michigan residents are lucky because they have so many quality schools to choose from. I think people will be happy wherever they go, which just comes down to personal choice, as each school has its advantages and disadvantages. The reason I wanted to post in this thread was because I felt some unfair and untrue statements were made about OUWB, and I wanted to provide a more informed source for next year's prospective students.

 

[membername3]

Again, for some reason, you're putting DMC > Beaumont in terms of more interesting cases, which I just don't think is true. Yes, DMC has a less wealthy population pool in an urban area, so you may see more gunshots and stabbings, but that does not mean that a huge Trauma 1 level hospital system in Beaumont will not provide excellent trauma experience. What the DMC lacks where Beaumont trumps, is the fact that Beaumont is a tertiary referral system. As a higher ranked hospital, Beaumont will see the more interesting, complicated, referred cases that Beaumont doctors are more qualified to treat over DMC docs. If you disagree, you need only look at the desired clerkship rotations at Wayne to see that Beaumont is at the top of that list.

I agree that Beaumont is a great hospital, but I still stand by what I said. It's not just more trauma cases you'll see in Detroit, but also a greater HIV positive population, malnutrition, and more uninsured people which means people holding off on medical care and having diseases progress to states that you wouldn't normally see in a more affluent area.

And I'm referring more to Henry Ford than DMC because Henry Ford is set to become Wayne's main clinical affiliate with 50% of students ultimately rotating there: http://www.henryford.com/body.cfm?id=46335&action=detail&ref=1210

Sorry this is somewhat outdated, but there also appears to be a significant advantage in terms of research dollars flowing into Henry Ford: http://www.henryfordinternalmedicine.com/rp_research.php

And yes, Beaumont is the top rated hospital in the metro area, but we're talking 6 nationally ranked specialties vs. 4 at the DMC or Henry Ford. http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/area/detroit-mi

Beaumont truly is a fantastic hospital and that gives OUWB a ton of potential to be a great medical school.
I agree that we can't really say which school is better than the other, it really just comes down to personal opinions and gut feeling.

Best of luck to you at OUWB.

 

[ruiner]

Reading back on my posts, I feel I have been a little antagonistic, which was never my intention. I'm not here to argue about which school is better. I think Michigan residents are lucky because they have so many quality schools to choose from. I think people will be happy wherever they go, which just comes down to personal choice, as each school has its advantages and disadvantages. The reason I wanted to post in this thread was because I felt some unfair and untrue statements were made about OUWB, and I wanted to provide a more informed source for next year's prospective students.

Yes it would probably be good for you to calm down and prepare for school rather then trying to advocate for something you haven't experienced yet.

 

[heterozygote]

Thanks for the breakdown! This was interesting.

I just wanted to post that I withdrew from the waitlist this morning.

Good luck to all those waitlisted. I wish you the best.

Results of visit with MSU CHM GR...

So essentially everything that ConformMe wrote is my reason for wanting to attend Wayne State - plus the proximity of the Children's hospital, and the expansive family of physicians that have come out of Wayne state - their reputation truly proceeds itself...

but... the Grand Rapids location for CHM can, and does square up to the arguments for Wayne in a big way.

First the positives:

1. The medical mile in GR is akin to the DMC in Detroit - with Spectrum, DeVos Children's hospital, Meijer heart pavilion, cancer center, etc., etc. etc. - the only thing they're lacking is the battlefield hospital that is Detroit receiving. All the buildings are interconnected via skyways.

2. GR is an incredible place to live. Hate to say it, but there's no way I'm going to live in Detroit - so the current plan would be to live with friends in Royal Oak... not bad - but it still takes 15+ minutes to commute to school - whereas - with GR I could live 5 minutes away and bike/ walk/ take the dash (public bus) to school - and run back home to get lunch before labs. Very convenient. Plus - the city is very much alive, with a huge number of college satellite campuses downtown and an expansive nightlife, bar scene, and plenty of recreation for those after exam parties.

3. The Secchia center is new, beautiful, and technologically superior than the facilities I saw at Wayne. Plus, it felt as though there were well-lit, quiet study rooms plugged into every nook and cranny of that building. Not-to-mention that if I wanted to stay there until 2 or 3 in the morning, I would have no problems walking back home alone...

4. The financial aid office was extremely helpful - and they have a great reputation for getting your refund back to you before the semester starts... I've always heard bad things about Wayne's financial aid department not getting refunds back for weeks into the year - kind of bad of you're depending on your loans to pay rent, etc. (they call it getting Wayned' - kind of funny).

5. Clinical spaces are super nice, the rooms are bugged and under video surveillance for review purposes and look like you standard doctor's office exam room. They also have sim rooms designed to mimic geriatric and pediatric hospital situations - all of these areas have computer terminals right outside the door to practice entering electronic histories.

6. Prosection - yes, this personally is a boon because I took human dissection in college and have already dissected a number of cadavers. Kinda sucks having to go to a no-digging-in experience - BUT!!!! Inside info - it's only for the first semester! - Second semester you can take a dissection elective that will allow you to get the dissection experience.

7. Although I don't have many specifics, opportunities to volunteer at free-clinics were mentioned to be available. But - nothing close to as developed as Wayne.

8. Looking at the match lists - I would refute that 73% of the residency matches are primary care - but I still have concerns about the visible lack of specialty programs.

9. Price - approximately $2,000 cheaper per semester than Wayne - not a big deal... but helps in the long run

Negatives/ concerns:

1. Telelectures - 75% of the time the person lecturing will be in East Lansing - which means that they're not around after the lecture to ask questions or clarify things. There are content experts present in the room, but your best bet is to email the lecturer.

2. The last point leads to another problem - the lack of teaching doctors/ professors in GR to get to know - to promote letters of recommendation, internships and shadowing, etc. I was told that the doctors within GRMEP (the medical colloquium for the Grand Rapids area) are more than happy to take students - and I got a couple of emails to contact.

3. Lack of specialty doctors. I want to go into pediatric neurosurgery as a career, and I need not say that these programs are extremely difficult to get into. I would imagine that - looking at the match lists, Wayne has 3 people from 2011 that were placed into neurosurgical programs - while MSU hasn't had anyone for the last 4 years of match records - VERY dismal indeed. So there's something wrong here... either the education isn't conducive to excelling to the level necessary to get into these programs - or students accepted to MSU are just generally interested in primary care or other specialty niches... hard to believe that NO ONE over the last four years has come in wanting Neurosurgery, and left with something they didn't want to do. Wayne is the exact opposite - there are HUNDREDS of specialty doctors at the DMC.

4. Board scores - still waiting to hear from admissions as to what the average board scores were for MSU - but a colleague who chose Wayne over MSU said that they were lower.

5. The Grand Rapids location is VERY young - having only opened their doors last year, they ported MS1's and 2's from East Lansing to their campus... the 3's and 4's were already there... This indicates that they're still forming pre-clinical relationships with the community and that the students there are just starting to establish the educational experience on this campus...

6. PBL - problem-based learning... so I already know that there are large debates on SDN over the effectiveness of this method, but I'm not really sure if this method is helpful to getting pathology down for USMLE Step 1... I mean - going through pathology in a case study format is certainly helpful - but I'm concerned that spending 4 hours learning concepts that could be fit into 2 hours of lecture cuts down on volume - granted that the quality/ application of information is better.

7. Clinical years - there is a definite possibility that at CHM you'll be placed at a different location for years 3 and 4. Which sucks. But - I was told that if you have significant ties to the community - I.E, a physician that you've been shadowing and want to continue to work with, ties to clinical opportunities with the hospitals, etc., etc. that your preference to stay will be looked at more favorably. Still... seems like a roll of the dice. With Wayne I wouldn't be living with the fear of having to move after 2 years to somewhere new. Plus... Detroit receiving - you'll see EVERYTHING - end of story

so... essentially it comes to an undeniable quality of education and certainty of connections with the big problem of commute, convenience, and "oldness" at Wayne versus a lot of possibilities, a great deal of amenities, but a whole lot of uncertainty at MSU...

I'll be meeting with an admissions rep from Wayne (hopefully) by the end of the week to fill in the blanks - but - thanks to everyone for sticking with the discussion, you guys are helping me to make an informed decision, and I appreciate it! Either way - here's to the class of 2015!