Rotations suck......not learn anything

[VCorp]

Caribbean graduate here and I absolutely hate 3rd year. I'm at an inner city hospital in Chicago, and I'm not learning anything. I had such a blast while being in a classroom setting that I loved leaving class, going to the library and studying there for 7-8 hours. If I was confused or didn't know something - I'd fire up Kaplan, Pathoma, do some UWorld questions, and I felt I was learning stuff.

Now, I'm a fish that went from a pond into the ocean. There's no direction. The lectures are pure crap from the attending physician. We see on a good day maybe 4 patients in the 4 hour span that we're supposed to be there. I find myself looking at this rotation as a "chore" more so than a learning opportunity.

There are moments when I question if I still want to continue with this process. I just did PreTest questions and got so many questions wrong. The ones which I got right were all Step 1 material related. I fear for my future as to what's going to happen.

When we go to see patients we ask them the basic of the most basic questions and that's it. Nothing else is done. Most of the patients we see here are coming in for basic vaccination or asthma. 3 more weeks then moving onto my next rotation. I here the attending for the next rotation is a laid back guy, and hardly ever teaches. You're off Wednesday and Friday, and don't go in on the weekends.

I made a thread earlier today talking about how I would do anything to turn back time and force myself to work harder to get into a US med school. Even though I did well on Step 1, I don't feel confident about my performance for Step 2.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

Caribbean graduate here and I absolutely hate 3rd year. I'm at an inner city hospital in Chicago, and I'm not learning anything. I had such a blast while being in a classroom setting that I loved leaving class, going to the library and studying there for 7-8 hours. If I was confused or didn't know something - I'd fire up Kaplan, Pathoma, do some UWorld questions, and I felt I was learning stuff.

Now, I'm a fish that went from a pond into the ocean. There's no direction. The lectures are pure crap from the attending physician. We see on a good day maybe 4 patients in the 4 hour span that we're supposed to be there. I find myself looking at this rotation as a "chore" more so than a learning opportunity.

This is a common experience even at US med schools. The key in third year is to find ways to learn in the hospital setting. This includes both book knowledge and practical skills. I would try to look up a relevant boards-related topic on every patient. This helped with any pimp questions and helped a lot for step 2 and 3. Writing excellent H&Ps, progress notes, transfer notes, discharge summaries, etc. is a complex art that requires lots of practice. Documentation has important medicolegal consequences, even with subtle errors. You should also be aggressive about doing procedures, especially if you're interested in a surgical specialty. The bottom line is to extract a teaching point from every single activity.

 

[OR4life]

Can someone please explain to me what I should be doing when i'm rounding. This is a real question so please answer seriously, nobody has bothered to explain it to me, btw i'm usually by myself during rounds

 

[IamaBanana]

Can someone please explain to me what I should be doing when i'm rounding. This is a real question so please answer seriously, nobody has bothered to explain it to me, btw i'm usually by myself during rounds

Really depends on the rotation, but generally speaking you should be doing an H&P and writing an appropriate note ie consult, progress, post-op progress, etc. Be ready to present to your resident/attending, even if they don't ask for it, and similarly write your note even if they don't use it. If you have time you can look up diagnoses and treatments on your smartphone so you look like a rockstar when you inevitably get pimped on grand rounds later.

Maybe you could be a little more specific as to what has you confused? Maybe describe what you've been doing while rounding and then someone could tell you what you're doing right or wrong.

 

[OR4life]

well mainly i'll just go in ask the patient how they're doing and any pertinent questions regarding their stay in the hospital, or at least try to, i guess i'm not exactly sure what the pertinent questions I should be asking are, I mean is it a full hx because most of that is already provided to me from their admission notes, than I leave, nobody ever asks me about what I saw or asks me to present, or asks me what I think the dx or offers to look over my note, Should I just be writing a SOAP note on a piece of paper

 

[pattr]

well mainly i'll just go in ask the patient how they're doing and any pertinent questions regarding their stay in the hospital, or at least try to, i guess i'm not exactly sure what the pertinent questions I should be asking are, I mean is it a full hx because most of that is already provided to me from their admission notes, than I leave, nobody ever asks me about what I saw or asks me to present, or asks me what I think the dx or offers to look over my note, Should I just be writing a SOAP note on a piece of paper

try reading up on the patients' conditions and see what pertinent questions could be. Otherwise just check for obvious things: relevant review of systems, quick physical exam: mouth/heart/lungs/anything else related to the problem(s), check any lines, drains, wounds, foleys... check what meds they are getting. Check their recent vitals and see if they've had a fever in the last day or two... check new labs/imaging/results.

Basically just try to understand what is going on with the patient yourself and develop a sense of what the plan would be going forward... then compare your own assessment/plan to what your residents/attendings discuss during actual rounds.

Seems like your rotation is pretty chill in terms of students' responsibilities but if you are asked to present or write a note... better to be prepared with the correct info than not know what's going on.

 

[touchpause13]

Can anyone speak on how 3rd and 4th year are at DMU?

I haven't heard much, positive or negative

 

[ChineseKid]

Wow. Informative thread!
Sounds like totally random quality at AZCOM

Sent from my SGH-T889V using Tapatalk

 

[hallowmann]

Wow. Informative thread!
Sounds like totally random quality at AZCOM

Sent from my SGH-T889V using Tapatalk

Honestly, I'm getting the impression that its totally random quality almost everywhere. It seems like the only way to guarantee at least a diverse patient pool is to aim for big academic hospital affiliates and to really talk to a ton of 3rd and 4th years. Even then, your preceptor might be different than theirs and then its a toss up again. I'm just glad my school has a decent amount of electives that can be set up independently.

 

[Elevencents]

I've noticed a disturbing trend on SDN and that is accepting the experience of one or two people as gospel for a certain school. So 2 or 3 people have had poor preceptors out of the THOUSANDS that have graduated in the last decade and suddenly it's all "Oh I shouldn't go there, I've heard horrid things". People really need to step back and realize SDN is not the end all of medical school experiences. Not to mention, the percentages are small that you will even encounter said preceptor by the time you're ready to rotate.

 

[ChineseKid]

Well. Obviously. After all, more bad news get written than good.
But still good information!

Sent from my SGH-T889V using Tapatalk

 

[NurWollen]

I'd also like to point out that the 3rd years I know personally are all having a blast. 2nd year is really intense at AZCOM, and they're all really excited to get out there and rotate.

 

[Seth Joo]

Soo my third year sucks... I've been assigned to hospitals where the attendings dont care and they dont really teach and they let you go home early and dont even care if you show up.

I feel like my whole 3rd year was wasted. I complained about this but they cant place me anywhere else b/c spots are all filled up.

Does anyone have any similar experiences??? I try to be proactive but honestly I dont learn that much.

I am studying for step 2 on my own and everything I learn in from review books.

You will be shocked but I have not even written ONE SIGNLE NOTE TO DATE!!!

Am I going to be screwed come residency? I dont know what to do except study hard for step 2, but I feel like ill be a bad resident. I can try to rotate at better hospitals during fourth year and learn stuff then.

Anyone in my shoes can comment that would be helpful!

Most DO school rotations are like this, at community hospitals or in doctor's offices.

 

[user3]

Most DO school rotations are like this, at community hospitals or in doctor's offices.

But is this something that needs to change? Any time someone comes on here and complains about their rotations, people are quick to blame the poster (they need to take more initiative to learn/ do procedures/ whatever), say that their experience hasn't been like the poster's, and defend their schools and DO clinical education in general. Why not instead admit that there ARE problems (maybe not for everyone, but complaints seem to be a lot more frequent here than in allo) and encourage people to take action?

 

[DrEnderW]

But is this something that needs to change? Any time someone comes on here and complains about their rotations, people are quick to blame the poster (they need to take more initiative to learn/ do procedures/ whatever), say that their experience hasn't been like the poster's, and defend their schools and DO clinical education in general. Why not instead admit that there ARE problems (maybe not for everyone, but complaints seem to be a lot more frequent here than in allo) and encourage people to take action?

Don't listen to what he says. He only trolls DO threads, adds nothing of value, and over exaggerates anything slightly negative out of proportion.

 

[cbtk18]

As long as these ****ty schools have people lining up down the block who would give their first born just to enroll and pay thousands of dollars, they are not going to change a thing. Why would they? They have revealed, on a daily basis, that properly educating future doctors is certainly not their top priority.

 

[Seth Joo]

But is this something that needs to change? Any time someone comes on here and complains about their rotations, people are quick to blame the poster (they need to take more initiative to learn/ do procedures/ whatever), say that their experience hasn't been like the poster's, and defend their schools and DO clinical education in general. Why not instead admit that there ARE problems (maybe not for everyone, but complaints seem to be a lot more frequent here than in allo) and encourage people to take action?

DO schools do not have the kind of funding that the MD schools possess. Life is not fair. Most DO schools are small private independent institutions, there are only a handful of schools affiliated with larger university systems. Schools like MSU, OSU, and Nova are all part of larger universities. I heard Nova students rotate with U of Miami MD students in large teaching hospitals.

The fact is that most of us in DO schools wind up in small community hospitals, at some schools its even worse where students are rotating at doctor's offices.

MD schools have clinical schools, departments fully dedicated to clinical training, this is something we do not have at DO schools. We do have clinical coordinators and deans but really we just get thrown out in the sea when on rotation.

I deep down feel that many schools are lax on clinical education mostly because many of us will become primary care physicians and work in under served and rural type communities.

 

[wjs010]

DO schools do not have the kind of funding that the MD schools possess. Life is not fair. Most DO schools are small private independent institutions, there are only a handful of schools affiliated with larger university systems. Schools like MSU, OSU, and Nova are all part of larger universities. I heard Nova students rotate with U of Miami MD students in large teaching hospitals.

The fact is that most of us in DO schools wind up in small community hospitals, at some schools its even worse where students are rotating at doctor's offices.

MD schools have clinical schools, departments fully dedicated to clinical training, this is something we do not have at DO schools. We do have clinical coordinators and deans but really we just get thrown out in the sea when on rotation.

I deep down feel that many schools are lax on clinical education mostly because many of us will become primary care physicians and work in under served and rural type communities.

But don't "most" Md students actually go into primary care as well?

 

[user3]

DO schools do not have the kind of funding that the MD schools possess. Life is not fair. Most DO schools are small private independent institutions, there are only a handful of schools affiliated with larger university systems. Schools like MSU, OSU, and Nova are all part of larger universities. I heard Nova students rotate with U of Miami MD students in large teaching hospitals.

The fact is that most of us in DO schools wind up in small community hospitals, at some schools its even worse where students are rotating at doctor's offices.

MD schools have clinical schools, departments fully dedicated to clinical training, this is something we do not have at DO schools. We do have clinical coordinators and deans but really we just get thrown out in the sea when on rotation.

I deep down feel that many schools are lax on clinical education mostly because many of us will become primary care physicians and work in under served and rural type communities.

so, Seth Joo- in your opinion, is this something that needs to be fundamentally improved in osteopathic education? Or should we just tolerate it and make the best of it? If the latter, I think we will need to accept the idea of being regarded as second class medical schools and accept that people will continue to question our training.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Sort of random but I am curious about how the rotations at KCUMB are? I have heard that in the past that the quality is really random. But then I hear little inklings about the school working really hard to strengthen their clinical education (I heard something about them establishing "tracks" this year to help people have stronger rotations if they have a specialty in mind). I guess I am just super concerned by the fact that they have had trouble with quality rotations and yet are increasing their class size... again...

For instance, what makes the rotations in Michigan and Ohio stronger than the KC rotations? I have heard a few people say that those locations are better, but even just looking at their list, the only hospital in those two states that seem impressive is Mercy St. Vincent in Ohio.

Then in the rest of the midwest you have Via Christi over in Wichita that seems solid and a couple big places in in Missouri, but otherwise, it seems like a lot of places are <200 beds, not a lot of specialty services, and not a lot of physicians on staff. How does one go about getting the best opportunity that they can get out of their education? I imagine for 4th year I will be doing some audition stuff all over the place, so I am not super concerned about 4th year, I will figure that out when the time comes and when I actually figure out what specialty I would even want to do.

But I definitely would love to have a strong core experience in 3rd year as I can get. I currently work in research and this job was promised to me as "a great learning experience, where I would be able to experience a lot of different techniques and would be pushed academically." Now over a year later I have found that no one has taught me crap. Through trial and error I have taught myself cell culture and a ton of different assays and whatnot. I have not had a SINGLE thing taught to me by someone else, I have learned everything from lab forums online or trying to vulture info from other labs nearby. Then after all this stress of trying to figure crap out on my own I had one of my PI's literally laugh at me yesterday for not knowing how to do a simple procedure... its like YOU never taught me HOW to do that procedure nor WHY to do that procedure. Sure you can read crap online on how to do a procedure, thats not the hard part, but without someone giving you some real world context the "why" then you basically have no clue what you are doing and you end up looking like a fool, regardless of your work ethic.

So needless to say I am extremely disillusioned by this position, but it pays the bills so I cant complain too much... However... I have definitely gotten my hopes up that I would escape this sort of scenario when I start med school... I was fortunate to get into what people say is a solid school (KCUMB), so I am just hoping I can have a relatively strong experience there and end up feeling competent at the end of my 4 years there, that is my goal... Feeling incompetent is probably the worst and most stressful feeling that I have felt out in the working world... but its like without some sort of teacher or mentor to give you some foundation, one is semi-doomed to being incompetent. I have worked in other labs before with better mentoring structure, so I am sure this is analogous to medical education (some spots are awesome and some not), but generally speaking, what can I do so that I do not end up like the OP? What sorts of things can I have going on in the back of my mind so that come 3rd year, I end up on decent enough rotations that give me the foundation that I am hoping to have.

 

[D4C]

.

 

[Elevencents]

Awesome,
Didn't read your whole post but re: Mi/Oh rotation sites they are generally at large hospitals that have several schools rotating through. They have most residencies in house so you'll generally be learning from residents and can get exposure to departments you are interested in even when not on their service. This also leads to less hospital hopping and commute time, which can be hell at some DO schools.

Michigan schools house a significant amount of residencies and if you are going AOA there's a good chance you'll end up in Michigan when it's all said and done (solely based on percentages, in no way are you relegated to go there). At least at the residencies I have looked at and am interested in.

I've spoken to several 4th years who have rotated through the Mi/Oh sites and have heard nothing but glowing remarks. Kansas City you'll have some commuting but I've heard generally good things as well.

ETA: I did a lot of research on the Oh/Mi sites because 3rd year sites and elective months were super important to me. Those sites are a major reason I chose KCUMB.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Awesome,
Didn't read your whole post but re: Mi/Oh rotation sites they are generally at large hospitals that have several schools rotating through. They have most residencies in house so you'll generally be learning from residents and can get exposure to departments you are interested in even when not on their service. This also leads to less hospital hopping and commute time, which can be hell at some DO schools.

Michigan schools house a significant amount of residencies and if you are going AOA there's a good chance you'll end up in Michigan when it's all said and done (solely based on percentages, in no way are you relegated to go there).

I've spoken to several 4th years who have rotated through the Mi/Oh sites and have heard nothing but glowing remarks. Kansas City you'll have some commuting but I've heard generally good things as well.

Hey thanks for the reply!

 

[user3]

If you reeeeealy hate it that much, you can always drop out.

Excuse me but I asked a valid question. There is no need to make this personal, thank you.

 

[AlteredScale]

Awesome,
Didn't read your whole post but re: Mi/Oh rotation sites they are generally at large hospitals that have several schools rotating through. They have most residencies in house so you'll generally be learning from residents and can get exposure to departments you are interested in even when not on their service. This also leads to less hospital hopping and commute time, which can be hell at some DO schools.

Michigan schools house a significant amount of residencies and if you are going AOA there's a good chance you'll end up in Michigan when it's all said and done (solely based on percentages, in no way are you relegated to go there). At least at the residencies I have looked at and am interested in.

I've spoken to several 4th years who have rotated through the Mi/Oh sites and have heard nothing but glowing remarks. Kansas City you'll have some commuting but I've heard generally good things as well.

ETA: I did a lot of research on the Oh/Mi sites because 3rd year sites and elective months were super important to me. Those sites are a major reason I chose KCUMB.

Thank you very much for this!

 

[D4C]

Excuse me but I asked a valid question. There is no need to make this personal, thank you.

You just seemed to full of gloom and doom I couldn't help but poke you a bit . Instead of spending time complaining and worrying about rotation quality, focus on making yourself a better applicant overall; there's only so much control you have over the rotations, and this seems to be specific to certain DO schools. I haven't talked to anyone from the DO side that matched into a competitive acgme residency that also wasn't a competitive applicant. And I think that's alot of the problems for DO students in general: a good portion of them didn't bother to make the most of school and just opted to do the P=DO routine. I will agree that certain schools have an infamous reputation for their rotations, however I don't believe that will make or break you in the grand scheme of things. And if you're worried about being perceived as a second rate doctor? Well then, do a first rate job and disabuse anyone of that notion. Let the rest fall to the wayside!

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Yea we are on the same page here. I heard in the past that KCUMB's rotations were more hit and miss, but as of recently they cut some bad ones and opened up pathways for those interested in specific specialties.

As for the class size, I thought I heard it on my interview day that they were expanding some haha? I remember asking my tour guide about it and she expressed some concern over the fact that they would be increasing size but not perfecting their rotation sites. I was under the impression that it will be around 270 students or something?

 

[AlteredScale]

Yea we are on the same page here. I heard in the past that KCUMB's rotations were more hit and miss, but as of recently they cut some bad ones and opened up pathways for those interested in specific specialties.

As for the class size, I thought I heard it on my interview day that they were expanding some haha? I remember asking my tour guide about it and she expressed some concern over the fact that they would be increasing size but not perfecting their rotation sites. I was under the impression that it will be around 270 students or something?

I believe that was our student ambassador and admission staff member who said that this expansions is for our class!

 

[67552931811]

I believe that was our student ambassador and admission staff member who said that this expansions is for our class!

Interesting. I'll put that on my list of questions to ask 5647 different people next month in KC (since we have conflicting experiences).

 

[hallowmann]

DO schools do not have the kind of funding that the MD schools possess. Life is not fair. Most DO schools are small private independent institutions, there are only a handful of schools affiliated with larger university systems. Schools like MSU, OSU, and Nova are all part of larger universities. I heard Nova students rotate with U of Miami MD students in large teaching hospitals.

The fact is that most of us in DO schools wind up in small community hospitals, at some schools its even worse where students are rotating at doctor's offices.

MD schools have clinical schools, departments fully dedicated to clinical training, this is something we do not have at DO schools. We do have clinical coordinators and deans but really we just get thrown out in the sea when on rotation.

I deep down feel that many schools are lax on clinical education mostly because many of us will become primary care physicians and work in under served and rural type communities.

I think most DO schools have some rotations with MD students. I personally know that my school has a number of hospitals for rotations that MD students (like Temple students, Drexel students, etc.) rotate at. That said, its far from uniform.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I really don't know if that issue is funding as much as it how they want it. There is certainly a vocal group in our leadership that is all about rotating at small community hospitals, which is fine if you want to do rural med/PCP, but it doesn't help for things like research and exposure to pathology.

I will say that I've heard of some MD schools where students get barely any hands-on exposure, and their clinicals are essentially them watching a bunch of other people do things, and studying for the shelf. I'm sure there's a balance, and the best schools that I have seen have a balance of big academic rotation opportunities alongside community rural med opportunities.

But don't "most" Md students actually go into primary care as well?

~25-30% go into primary care usually, but it varies significantly by school. Some schools are as high as 60%, whereas others go down to 15%. Do schools average I think somewhere in the 50-60% range, but there are schools closer to 35-40%. Probably has a lot to do with the school and location. As you would expect, rural or schools with underserved missions make more PCPs.

 

[Eremba]

Yea we are on the same page here. I heard in the past that KCUMB's rotations were more hit and miss, but as of recently they cut some bad ones and opened up pathways for those interested in specific specialties.

As for the class size, I thought I heard it on my interview day that they were expanding some haha? I remember asking my tour guide about it and she expressed some concern over the fact that they would be increasing size but not perfecting their rotation sites. I was under the impression that it will be around 270 students or something?

They just added a new core site in Arkansas

Our class (2018) has 270 (well, 268 now) I think that's about as big as they want to go...but could be wrong. I honestly don't see how our school could have too many more per class.....

 

[67552931811]

They just added a new core site in Arkansas

Our class (2018) has 270 (well, 268 now) I think that's about as big as they want to go...but could be wrong. I honestly don't see how our school could have too many more per class.....

270 is the number I recall being quoted for our class as well (2019).

 

[user3]

You just seemed to full of gloom and doom I couldn't help but poke you a bit . Instead of spending time complaining and worrying about rotation quality, focus on making yourself a better applicant overall; there's only so much control you have over the rotations, and this seems to be specific to certain DO schools. I haven't talked to anyone from the DO side that matched into a competitive acgme residency that also wasn't a competitive applicant. And I think that's alot of the problems for DO students in general: a good portion of them didn't bother to make the most of school and just opted to do the P=DO routine. I will agree that certain schools have an infamous reputation for their rotations, however I don't believe that will make or break you in the grand scheme of things. And if you're worried about being perceived as a second rate doctor? Well then, do a first rate job and disabuse anyone of that notion. Let the rest fall to the wayside!

either contribute to my question, or don't post. I wanted to hear people's thoughts about that topic. That was it. I did not ask for advice. How I will personally deal with my education is my business, not yours.

 

[Goro]

I think you guys should cut user3 some slack and realize that s/he's not whining, but making a very good suggestion.

Now, the realm of 3rd and 4th years is pretty much an unknown to us Faculty who spend all our time with OMS Is and IIs. But, I have gleaned something about the clinical years:

1) in the absence of anything suitable, at my school, and I gather at others, students are resourceful and make their own rotations, especially in the 4th year.
2) pressure, pressure, pressure your clinical deans to go out and find rotation sites. The latter is still an art form, but I've also learned that deans tend to cave into student complaints.
3) network your alumni!

Hope that helps.

either contribute to my question, or don't post. I wanted to hear people's thoughts about that topic. That was it. I did not ask for advice. How I will personally deal with my education is my business, not yours.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I think you guys should cut user3 some slack and realize that s/he's not whining, but making a very good suggestion.

Now, the realm of 3rd and 4th years is pretty much an unknown to us Faculty who spend all our time with OMS Is and IIs. But, I have gleamed something about the clinical years:

1) in the absence of anything suitable, at my school, and I gather at others, students are resourceful and make their own rotations, especially in the 4th year.
2) pressure, pressure, pressure your clinical deans to go out and find rotation sites. The latter is still an art form, but I've also learned that deans tend to cave into student complaints.
3) network your alumni!

Hope that helps.

1. That's swell, then stop charging your students 4th year tuition if we're doing your job.
2. So, it's our jobs to pressure well paid professionals to do their job on top of giving them 40k a year?
3. This only works because previous alum know the crap storm said school puts us through and they have empathy.

Personally there needs to be stricter standards for DO schools 3rd/4th year. Some schools have students rotate with RNs others make up their own shelves. It all really is a joke. Of course I guess the schools do teach us one thing "Look out for yourself, because others sure as hell won't"

 

[Siggy]

I think you guys should cut user3 some slack and realize that s/he's not whining, but making a very good suggestion.

Now, the realm of 3rd and 4th years is pretty much an unknown to us Faculty who spend all our time with OMS Is and IIs. But, I have gleamed something about the clinical years:

1) in the absence of anything suitable, at my school, and I gather at others, students are resourceful and make their own rotations, especially in the 4th year.
2) pressure, pressure, pressure your clinical deans to go out and find rotation sites. The latter is still an art form, but I've also learned that deans tend to cave into student complaints.
3) network your alumni!

Hope that helps.

1. As mentioned, why is it my job to do the school's job. What ever happened to professionalism? (Oh, that's right, it doesn't apply to medical schools... only students).

2. From my experience, the upper management at my well known school in the Southwest didn't give a damn about student complaints about rotation sites. They also actively did not post negative reviews about rotation sites on the student review site.

3. It's hard to network alumni when most of the alumni don't give a damn about their alma mater based off of poor decisions of said alma mater. Let me put it to you like this. If my med school ever called me for donations, I would demand to be put on their do not call list... and then enforce said request with the full weight of the laws governing said lists.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

1. As mentioned, why is it my job to do the school's job. What ever happened to professionalism? (Oh, that's right, it doesn't apply to medical schools... only students).

2. From my experience, the upper management at my well known school in the Southwest didn't give a damn about student complaints about rotation sites. They also actively did not post negative reviews about rotation sites on the student review site.

3. It's hard to network alumni when most of the alumni don't give a damn about their alma mater based off of poor decisions of said alma mater. Let me put it to you like this. If my med school ever called me for donations, I would demand to be put on their do not call list... and then enforce said request with the full weight of the laws governing said lists.

I have thought about this. In 10-15 years from now DO schools will be calling a bunch of physicians who are still in debt from tuition asking for donations?

That's not going to go over very well.

 

[Apoplexy__]

If my med school ever called me for donations, I would demand to be put on their do not call list... and then enforce said request with the full weight of the laws governing said lists.

I've daydreamed a little about this. If my alma mater calls me for donations, I'll probably dangle significant amounts of money in front of them demanding certain administrative changes.
"Oh, you'd like a small donation of $1000? Make lectures optional and we'll make it $2000. I'll throw in an extra $10k if you replace Dr. X with someone else"

I'd care less about them actually taking up my offers and more about them actually having to relay the message of these bargains through the appropriate channels.

 

[Goro]

Excellent question!

1) You're 100% right, it IS their job....but they're not doing it well, despite all the tuition you're paying. Bitterly galling, I know, and you deserve better. But, someone's going to have to do it, and so why not you, if they can't?

2) Ahh, well, so much for that idea.

3) Perhaps I'm being naive, but having gone through what you're going through, I would hope that alumni would be more sympathetic for your situation (and not the school's). There's a difference between them hitting up your grads for donations and you inquiring about possible rotation sites.

Hang in there...you'll get through this.

1. As mentioned, why is it my job to do the school's job. What ever happened to professionalism? (Oh, that's right, it doesn't apply to medical schools... only students).

2. From my experience, the upper management at my well known school in the Southwest didn't give a damn about student complaints about rotation sites. They also actively did not post negative reviews about rotation sites on the student review site.

3. It's hard to network alumni when most of the alumni don't give a damn about their alma mater based off of poor decisions of said alma mater. Let me put it to you like this. If my med school ever called me for donations, I would demand to be put on their do not call list... and then enforce said request with the full weight of the laws governing said lists.

 

[user3]

Personally there needs to be stricter standards for DO schools 3rd/4th year. Some schools have students rotate with RNs others make up their own shelves. It all really is a joke. Of course I guess the schools do teach us one thing "Look out for yourself, because others sure as hell won't"

Even though your statements are justified, what is the point in continuing to complain?

a decent number of people here seem to feel we DO students should accept the situation as is, acknowledge that life is not fair, and just make the most of what we will have. Maybe we should end the discussion on this note.

 

[puppylatte]

Even though your statements are justified, what is the point in continuing to complain?

a decent number of people here seem to feel we DO students should accept the situation as is, acknowledge that life is not fair, and just make the most of what we will have. Maybe we should end the discussion on this note.

This is not the attitude that inspires change. The better DO education gets, the better your degree will be perceived even 30 years down the road when you are a seasoned attending.

People need to get disgruntled and vocal. This is not complaining. It's participating in what could turn into a movement. <steps off soap box>

 

[user3]

This is not the attitude that inspires change. The better DO education gets, the better your degree will be perceived even 30 years down the road when you are a seasoned attending.

People need to get disgruntled and vocal. This is not complaining. It's participating in what could turn into a movement. <steps off soap box>

I have discussed this with several classmates.

Their attitude is "DO education is fine. Our schools are invested in producing compassionate, humanistic physicians. We will have extra training and a skill set that MD's will not. It is their problem if they think our training is sub-par."

certain SDN members' thoughts- "Suck it up. Life isn't fair. Work hard and make do with what you have."- I hate to say this, but perhaps they are right. While we all would certainly like for things to be better, maybe we should be realistic and stick to this advice.

 

[Siggy]

Excellent question!

1) You're 100% right, it IS their job....but they're not doing it well, despite all the tuition you're paying. Bitterly galling, I know, and you deserve better. But, someone's going to have to do it, and so why not you, if they can't?

Because I've already graduated and I'm not going to show loyalty to an institution that showed no loyalty to me.

3) Perhaps I'm being naive, but having gone through what you're going through, I would hope that alumni would be more sympathetic for your situation (and not the school's). There's a difference between them hitting up your grads for donations and you inquiring about possible rotation sites.

Hang in there...you'll get through this.

I could see myself taking individual students on as an attending on a "case by case" basis (read: if I was asked, the answer would probably be "yes"), but as an official long term appointment? Meh.

 

[Goro]

Your comments revived a memoir of something I was told a long time ago...that new medical schools have to pretty much write off the first five graduation classes as sources of alumni funding, because their memories are so bitter! It takes time to learn how to run a medical school!

But it's good to see that you'd be interested in helping a student, as opposed to helping the school. In time, they'll get their act together.

Because I've already graduated and I'm not going to show loyalty to an institution that showed no loyalty to me.


I could see myself taking individual students on as an attending on a "case by case" basis (read: if I was asked, the answer would probably be "yes"), but as an official long term appointment? Meh.

 

[Siggy]

Your comments revived a memoir of something I was told a long time ago...that new medical schools have to pretty much write off the first five graduation classes as sources of alumni funding, because their memories are so bitter! It takes time to learn how to run a medical school!

But it's good to see that you'd be interested in helping a student, as opposed to helping the school. In time, they'll get their act together.

My school opened up a lot longer than 5 years ago.

...and yea... it's something that I've had to think about. On one hand, I don't want anything I do to reflect positively on my medical school. I honestly want nothing to do with the place. On the other hand, it simply isn't fair to screw over individual students who didn't know any better when they got accepted. To not help the individual student essentially makes me as bad as my school, and that's unacceptable.

 

[midweststudent1]

Interesting. I'll put that on my list of questions to ask 5647 different people next month in KC (since we have conflicting experiences).

Class of 2018 has been expanded to just a little over 270....I don't think they're expanding it anymore

 

[Seth Joo]

I think most DO schools have some rotations with MD students. I personally know that my school has a number of hospitals for rotations that MD students (like Temple students, Drexel students, etc.) rotate at. That said, its far from uniform.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I really don't know if that issue is funding as much as it how they want it. There is certainly a vocal group in our leadership that is all about rotating at small community hospitals, which is fine if you want to do rural med/PCP, but it doesn't help for things like research and exposure to pathology.

I will say that I've heard of some MD schools where students get barely any hands-on exposure, and their clinicals are essentially them watching a bunch of other people do things, and studying for the shelf. I'm sure there's a balance, and the best schools that I have seen have a balance of big academic rotation opportunities alongside community rural med opportunities.



~25-30% go into primary care usually, but it varies significantly by school. Some schools are as high as 60%, whereas others go down to 15%. Do schools average I think somewhere in the 50-60% range, but there are schools closer to 35-40%. Probably has a lot to do with the school and location. As you would expect, rural or schools with underserved missions make more PCPs.

Some DO schools have their student rotate with MD students, but very few have their own teaching hospitals. Almost all of the schools give you a list of their clinical sites but not much else.

 

[Goro]

And there ya go!


To not help the individual student essentially makes me as bad as my school, and that's unacceptable.

 

[hallowmann]

Some DO schools have their student rotate with MD students, but very few have their own teaching hospitals. Almost all of the schools give you a list of their clinical sites but not much else.

Yeah, it's clearly a problem across the board. Even my school has their own teaching hospital, but only 52 students (out of 370 across 2 campuses) can rotate there, and I haven't heard great things about the pathology and patient volume.

 

[NurWollen]

My school opened up a lot longer than 5 years ago.

...and yea... it's something that I've had to think about. On one hand, I don't want anything I do to reflect positively on my medical school. I honestly want nothing to do with the place. On the other hand, it simply isn't fair to screw over individual students who didn't know any better when they got accepted. To not help the individual student essentially makes me as bad as my school, and that's unacceptable.

You could always precept student from your school and then trash the school the whole time they're with you. Lol. I wonder how long the school would hang on to you.