Rotations suck......not learn anything

[kjamess]

I wonder if it was you or the school that wasted your 3rd year.

It'd be great to tell your school's name. This way, you might not only get better response from your school's upperclassmen but also smooth the edges of this very issue of yours here before the general public. Otherwise, I might as well consider you as a troll. But, it's your choice.

I wonder how you'll handle the cognitive dissonance if you happen to end up at the same school/hospital as the OP.

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[Orthojoe]

how do you know that OP also goes to AZCOM or are you just guessing?

I have no clue if he/she does but I hear this from the majority of my class members and I have experienced the same. I was frustrated at first but then just realized this could be good for me and will force me to really work hard. I've actually come to appreciate the autonomy and glad I'm not in a rotation where I'm doing scut work 70+ hours a week.

I rotated at a large allopathic Ortho program in December and realized that this autonomy made me more of a critical thinker as compared to my allopathic companions I was rotating with. They had great rote memorization but couldn't think through a problem for beans. Maybe not true for everyone but I felt I was much farther ahead. I received an email from the program director afterwards telling me I did well and I would be ranked favorably. The program just wasn't for me though. Poor operating experience.

 

[MedPR]

Ok I'll name it- AZCOM.

Heck I'm not afraid of my school's shortcomings- they suck at setting up good rotations. Every good one I had I set up myself. . Ive had tons of rotations where I did nothing but sit around. However that doesn't mean I didn't do anything. I took my own notes, then would ask to see the notes the attending writes and compare. I'd also talk with the nursing staff or ancillary staff as well to learn. Take charge of your own education. Find a resident and tag along asking good quality questions. Google and YouTube can be your best friend. Often a good quality question can bring out an attending's willingness to teach. But if not shoot your questions to your chair. Bug them since they get paid by your tuition dollars.

I feel for ya OP however you've got to realize that you can't leave your future in someone else's hands. Your should feel 100% comfortable writing notes and taking a history by your fourth year. Heck send me your SOAP notes and I'll critique ya. Just know you will need these dogged personality traits when dealing with sick patients, sitting back is not an option. Your going to feel uncomfortable and alone so take charge and save that patient's life!

Thanks for sharing, Orthojoe. Do you go to the same school as OP?

To everyone else, this info about AZCOM isn't really new here on SDN so pre-meds shouldn't be terribly surprised. It was all over the 2013 AZCOM thread back in August and is why I decided to postpone (and ultimately withdraw) my interview there in the first place.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I have no clue if he/she does but I hear this from the majority of my class members and I have experienced the same. I was frustrated at first but then just realized this could be good for me and will force me to really work hard. I've actually come to appreciate the autonomy and glad I'm not in a rotation where I'm doing scut work 70+ hours a week.

I rotated at a large allopathic Ortho program in December and realized that this autonomy made me more of a critical thinker as compared to my allopathic companions I was rotating with. They had great rote memorization but couldn't think through a problem for beans. Maybe not true for everyone but I felt I was much farther ahead. I received an email from the program director afterwards telling me I did well and I would be ranked favorably. The program just wasn't for me though. Poor operating experience.

The big question...,.if you had the choice would you attend the school all over again? Or was 3rd year so bad that you wouldnt?

 

[Orthojoe]

The big question...,.if you had the choice would you attend the school all over again? Or was 3rd year so bad that you wouldnt?

School was a means to an end that I wanted. Albeit a very expensive one. I am truly glad I came here because it gave me huge amounts of freedom. I have three kids and worked a part time job. It couldn't have happened if I was at a school that had long long clinical hours. I believe it was perfect for me and my situation.

I don't believe you need to spend tons of hours to become a good student. I believe it needs to be good focused learning. But that's for me. I don't learn from lectures. If my rotation sucked I'd go visit the patients myself, write my own notes and plans. when there was down time instead of shooting the breeze I pulled put a book and reviewed. My dates with my wife consisted of cuddling in bed while she quizzed me(she probably knows more Ortho than some interns).

Again for me it was great because it forced me to take charge. It ended well with an Ortho match so it worked for me. Just realize every school has problems and hoops to jump through.

 

[Flushot]

I'd like to chime in as another 4th year at AZCOM. Again, we don't know whether or not the OP is also at AZCOM.

I pretty much have to second everything orthojoe has said. AZCOM does little to help us and also little to stand in our way. SDN gave me some idea of what things would be like here and there were only a few surprises. Like orthojoe, every good month I set up myself, sometimes with the schools help, sometimes not. But, I got everything I wanted and planned for.

Although I'm waiting for the allo match, I feel I have accomplished what I wanted to here, albeit with a hefty price tag and some administrative headaches. Things definitely could've been a lot better, but I don't think I was robbed of my 3rd year. Then again, I wrote tons of notes 3rd year, so it could also just be this region or this hospital.

 

[ILikeFood]

.

 

[p30doc]

I see you're headed to NSU.

NSU is highly variable but if you stay in S.Flo for third year, particularly Broward, Palmetto, West Palm or Mt Sinai, you will get to write all the notes you could ever hope for. I rotated at Palmetto and can safely say that hospital would collapse onto itself if medical students weren't there to carry the load.

You get plenty of actual note writing experience which are included in charts at Largo too.

 

[sazerac]

are some school where it is possible to go through the entire third-year and fourth year without having any inpatient experience. A while ago there was a post made by osteopathic medical student asking if it was normal to have a OR nurse as his preceptor during his core surgical rotation.

PNWU is the medical school that uses nurses to teach their students medicine. Maybe that's the OP's school?

 

[MedPR]

PNWU is the medical school that uses nurses to teach their students medicine. Maybe that's the OP's school?

If true, that is pathetic and miserably embarrassing.

 

[Deceptacon]

if true, that is pathetic and miserably embarrassing.

hey, nurses are equal to physicians and offer equal if not better care based on numerous studies!

edit: wow, it took off my caps lock....

 

[Nymphicus]

hey, nurses are equal to physicians and offer equal if not better care based on numerous studies!

 

[dudeliness]

Well, I'm glad I read through this thread. While I have no idea what rotations will be like at my school (western in Lebanon Oregon) I know that I can do things to make it better.
Be proactive!

 

[shibby1111]

.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

hey, nurses are equal to physicians and offer equal if not better care based on numerous studies!

edit: wow, it took off my caps lock....

:sly:

 

[dudeliness]

What does "OP" stand for? What exactly is a note?

OP is the first person to post in a thread. "Opening poster" or some such jazz.
I believe the notes everyone is referring to is the SOAP notes doctors write after a patient visit.

 

[bartl]

Isn't AZCOM the place where somebody matched derm at Mayo last year?

 

[Dharma]

This is a serious issue- one that should be brought to the forefront of discussion, especially publicly, not just here on SDN.

So, how do we go about bringing this issue to the spotlight (and basically putting COCA on blast)? Are groups like SOMA addressing this? (I guess I should find out...) If groups like the AOA and COCA actually care about the profession and public perception (besides weak attempts at PR) they will also address this apparent deficiency.

Secondly, as far as SDN goes, I say we put our institutions on blast (or give them props) should they deserve so. I know that there are threads dedicated to reviewing one's school, but maybe a thread just regarding clinical education needs to get rolling. You can bet your backside that the admins from schools are reading SDN. Now we just need students with the coglioni to drop some truth about their school. Don't be skered! Dissension is as American as it gets!

OP you should let the community here know what school you're speaking of. Truth likes this needs to be known for various reasons.

 

[darklabel]

OP wait until you've matched then go ahead and mention this school in the future. I think it's smart to wait since most med school administrators follow SDN.

 

[icevermin]

Reading through this thread... Would anybody be averse to setting up a topic where they discuss their clinical experience eventually leading to rankings of DO schools per clinical experiences?

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[oms2]

the school should be named so other people can refute or corroborate.
we need to separate legitimate concerns from n=1/drama/fiction/trolls.

 

[SpringDO]

OP wait until you've matched then go ahead and mention this school in the future. I think it's smart to wait since most med school administrators follow SDN.

Thank you! I had no idea how much attention my post was going to cause!!!

I really dont want to say the name of my school sorry, I just dont feel comfortable doing so.

Like I said my school does have some great hospitals where students rotate at but I was not fortunate to be placed there.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Thank you! I had no idea how much attention my post was going to cause!!!

I really dont want to say the name of my school sorry, I just dont feel comfortable doing so.

Like I said my school does have some great hospitals where students rotate at but I was not fortunate to be placed there.

You don't need to be "fortunate" to be placed at a core clinical rotation to learn how to become a physician, unless you aren't attending to a Caribbean med school. Heck, even St. Georges has been sending its students to teaching hospitals in NYC.

You're attending to an American medical school, private, which costs you A LOT. I cannot understand although someone had his/her 3rd year at a medical school completely wasted, he/she still doesn't seek for legitimate and/or public help to fix this unbeliavable problem.

I hope your school isn't GA-PCOM or Western/COMP. Those are the two schools I'm considering seriously to attend after turning down the other acceptances and even interview invites. So, at least kindly tell if you are a student at either of those schools or not.

 

[fluoropHore]

You don't need to be "fortunate" to be placed at a core clinical rotation to learn how to become a physician, unless you aren't attending to a Caribbean med school. Heck, even St. Georges has been sending its students to teaching hospitals in NYC.

You're attending to an American medical school, private, which costs you A LOT. I cannot understand although someone had his/her 3rd year at a medical school completely wasted, he/she still doesn't seek for legitimate and/or public help to fix this unbeliavable problem.

I hope your school isn't GA-PCOM or Western/COMP. Those are the two schools I'm considering seriously to attend after turning down the other acceptances and even interview invites. So, at least kindly tell if you are a student at either of those schools or not.

Or atleast what geographic location it's in?

 

[fluoropHore]

Sorry if someone mentioned this already, but is student government at these schools getting involved? Now I'm scurred.

 

[MedPR]

You don't need to be "fortunate" to be placed at a core clinical rotation to learn how to become a physician, unless you aren't attending to a Caribbean med school. Heck, even St. Georges has been sending its students to teaching hospitals in NYC.

You're attending to an American medical school, private, which costs you A LOT. I cannot understand although someone had his/her 3rd year at a medical school completely wasted, he/she still doesn't seek for legitimate and/or public help to fix this unbeliavable problem.

I hope your school isn't GA-PCOM or Western/COMP. Those are the two schools I'm considering seriously to attend after turning down the other acceptances and even interview invites. So, at least kindly tell if you are a student at either of those schools or not.

This thread suggests otherwise. Dat reading comprehension.

 

[Dmr6186]

This thread suggests otherwise. Dat reading comprehension.

True dat. Some schools assign spots based on a lottery system. More luck in this case.

 

[Dmr6186]

I see you're headed to NSU.

NSU is highly variable but if you stay in S.Flo for third year, particularly Broward, Palmetto, West Palm or Mt Sinai, you will get to write all the notes you could ever hope for. I rotated at Palmetto and can safely say that hospital would collapse onto itself if medical students weren't there to carry the load.

thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[engineeredout]

In my experience, it has been the hospitals with EMR that I've done the least in terms of note writing. Most of the time they'll just say that the computers aren't set up to handle med student notes, which is probably more a product of them not knowing how to use the EMR rather than that being actually true. The places without EMR charting for the most part have had me write notes in the charts and the attending just cosigns.

As for just practicing, I hate when we write notes for "practice" that nobody will end up reading anyway. Just a complete waste of time.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Uh oh, looks like the Carib's are having a field day, although what they fail to realize is that this issue can happen anywhere, at any hospital, with any student, US MD or DO.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=986969

And regarding the whole nurses thing...you guys do realize that there are some nurses that teach courses at US MD schools, right? It's called a team-based approach to learning, and heck, some nurses have been in the field and involved with research for a long time, longer than some MD/DOs. I find it hard to believe that a medical school would consist of only nurse faculty. If that's the case, well, then...that's sad, but I doubt that's the case, because I think accreditation for med. schools state there needs to be some PhD/MD/DO faculty ratio, unless I'm wrong and someone can correct me.

Guys, there will always be hospitals that just plain suck. There will always be attendings and interns that are horrid. Even at some renown "teaching" hospitals, there may be no actual teaching because the residents are too busy during their own thing.

In the end, relatively speaking, it really is up to the student to not be passive, and to instead take initiative and learn as much as he/she can.

 

[dermpathdoc]

Faculty do review these forums as Sylvanthus well knows. We have butted heads a couple of times on these threads

 

[dermpathdoc]

Thank you Calvin....This is quite true and it does appear some posters werent listening when we discussed Team Based medical care during classes.

Uh oh, looks like the Carib's are having a field day, although what they fail to realize is that this issue can happen anywhere, at any hospital, with any student, US MD or DO.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=986969

And regarding the whole nurses thing...you guys do realize that there are some nurses that teach courses at US MD schools, right? It's called a team-based approach to learning, and heck, some nurses have been in the field and involved with research for a long time, longer than some MD/DOs. I find it hard to believe that a medical school would consist of only nurse faculty. If that's the case, well, then...that's sad, but I doubt that's the case, because I think accreditation for med. schools state there needs to be some PhD/MD/DO faculty ratio, unless I'm wrong and someone can correct me.

Guys, there will always be hospitals that just plain suck. There will always be attendings and interns that are horrid. Even at some renown "teaching" hospitals, there may be no actual teaching because the residents are too busy during their own thing.

In the end, relatively speaking, it really is up to the student to not be passive, and to instead take initiative and learn as much as he/she can.

 

[Bacchus]

In my experience, it has been the hospitals with EMR that I've done the least in terms of note writing. Most of the time they'll just say that the computers aren't set up to handle med student notes, which is probably more a product of them not knowing how to use the EMR rather than that being actually true. The places without EMR charting for the most part have had me write notes in the charts and the attending just cosigns.

As for just practicing, I hate when we write notes for "practice" that nobody will end up reading anyway. Just a complete waste of time.

Aye about the first part. I had friends rotate at Lankenau who never wrote "real" notes. Its one of our better, local rotation sites.

When I was at Lehigh Valley I wasn't able to modify electronic charts either (ie write notes).

In these instances, either write practice notes (ugh) or jot down the pertinent things and present to your attending.

 

[freshbagels]

Thank you! I had no idea how much attention my post was going to cause!!!

I really dont want to say the name of my school sorry, I just dont feel comfortable doing so.

Like I said my school does have some great hospitals where students rotate at but I was not fortunate to be placed there.

At the very least, you can do us all a valuable service by naming the hospital or location you clerked it. We know you don't want to indict your whole school, but exposing low-quality rotation sites only helps the community.

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[DocEspana]

You know, i read this, and i cant help but think it might be my school. hahaha. sad as it is.

Now this sounds much worse than any complaint I've ever heard about the specific hospital batch I have in my head. And that makes me think it might not be mine. Cause over at TouroCOM we do have these hospitals that are so easy that if youre not self motivated ou might do very little for a month.... but everyone (EVERYONE) knows thats the deal. The school spells out to you that is the deal. And it tends to end up being a highly desired place for the highly motivated top of the class types who would rather have 3-4 really high yield hours and then be let free to study (also they have hospitals in that system that are totally normal 'teaching' experiences too).

I am curious if the OP knew very well ahead of time what he was getting into and actively chose to go there because it is easy.... and is now regretting it because he is not the right kind of studier to benefit from it (also, it sounds like his experience is extra sucky. even at its worst, the tourcom "easy track" involves lots of note writing)

 

[SpringDO]

Holy crap!!!!!!! today is my lucky day! I asked a student if he wanted to switch rotations with me and he said YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now I just need admin approval.

 

[MedPR]

Uh oh, looks like the Carib's are having a field day, although what they fail to realize is that this issue can happen anywhere, at any hospital, with any student, US MD or DO.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=986969

And regarding the whole nurses thing...you guys do realize that there are some nurses that teach courses at US MD schools, right? It's called a team-based approach to learning, and heck, some nurses have been in the field and involved with research for a long time, longer than some MD/DOs. I find it hard to believe that a medical school would consist of only nurse faculty. If that's the case, well, then...that's sad, but I doubt that's the case, because I think accreditation for med. schools state there needs to be some PhD/MD/DO faculty ratio, unless I'm wrong and someone can correct me.

Guys, there will always be hospitals that just plain suck. There will always be attendings and interns that are horrid. Even at some renown "teaching" hospitals, there may be no actual teaching because the residents are too busy during their own thing.

In the end, relatively speaking, it really is up to the student to not be passive, and to instead take initiative and learn as much as he/she can.

Aren't you an M2?

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[peppy]

Holy crap!!!!!!! today is my lucky day! I asked a student if he wanted to switch rotations with me and he said YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now I just need admin approval.

Glad that you were able to work something out and I sure hope you have a better experience at the other hospital.

 

[Textbookversion]

I'm surprised by this thread, given the match list at AZCOM, I always assumed they had pretty good rotations. Hadn't really looked into it.

You'd think they'd just buy a hospital with all the money they have floating around. I mean it's not really that expensive in the whole scheme of things.

 

[peppy]

And regarding the whole nurses thing...you guys do realize that there are some nurses that teach courses at US MD schools, right? It's called a team-based approach to learning, and heck, some nurses have been in the field and involved with research for a long time, longer than some MD/DOs. I find it hard to believe that a medical school would consist of only nurse faculty. If that's the case, well, then...that's sad, but I doubt that's the case, because I think accreditation for med. schools state there needs to be some PhD/MD/DO faculty ratio, unless I'm wrong and someone can correct me.

I am a senior resident, so I'd like to think that by this point in time I know a decent amount of medicine, but if I were supervising student nurses and expected to teach them how to be RNs, I think I'd do a pretty crappy job because being a doctor is different from being a nurse and requires a different type of knowledge.

The point of 3rd year rotations is to help you better understand the role of physicians in these specialties both to increase your knowledge as a physician and also to help you decide if you want to specialize in that field yourself. I don't know how I would have ever known if I wanted to become a surgeon if I didn't get to work with surgery residents and attendings on my gen surg rotation. An OR nurse's work and lifestyle is not the same as a surgical resident's work will be.
It is embarrassing to our profession that some schools are scamming students out of tens of thousands of dollars and giving these students a sub-par education in return.

 

[MedPR]

I'm surprised by this thread, given the match list at AZCOM, I always assumed they had pretty good rotations. Didn't really look into it.

You'd think they'd just buy a hospital with all the money they have floating around. I mean it's not really that expensive in the whole scheme of things.

How do match lists indicate quality of rotations. I thought all it takes to match well is a good board score and honors in rotations.

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[Flushot]

I'm surprised by this thread, given the match list at AZCOM, I always assumed they had pretty good rotations. Didn't really look into it.

You'd think they'd just buy a hospital with all the money they have floating around. I mean it's not really that expensive in the whole scheme of things.

How do match lists indicate quality of rotations. I thought all it takes to match well is a good board score and honors in rotations.

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It takes more than that. AZCOM kind of forces us to be proactive, which only helps in the long run despite the headache.

Also, we don't know exactly where the OP is going. Orthojoe just randomly brought up AZCOM which is quite unfortunate now because it will now be misconstrued and also end up on searches. As correct and coherent his posts were, I sadly think people will take these statements here without context.

 

[sylvanthus]

Faculty do review these forums as Sylvanthus well knows. We have butted heads a couple of times on these threads

True enough. But I wont sacrifice honesty for anything. It may be my downfall one day, but least I would die an honest man.

 

[MedPR]

It takes more than that. AZCOM kind of forces us to be proactive, which only helps in the long run despite the headache.

Also, we don't know exactly where the OP is going. Orthojoe just randomly brought up AZCOM which is quite unfortunate now because it will now be misconstrued and also end up on searches. As correct and coherent his posts were, I sadly think people will take these statements here without context.

Ok so what else does it take? If you interview somewhere it's not like they make you go out on the ward and show them your clinical skills.

 

[Textbookversion]

Ok so what else does it take? If you interview somewhere it's not like they make you go out on the ward and show them your clinical skills.

Umm well if you do a Sub-I they see your clinical skills before they interview you. And even if you don't do a sub-I at that program, you are going to do a couple elsewhere and get letters of recommendation based on your performance and the places you interview at are going to see those letters.

 

[sylvanthus]

I am a senior resident, so I'd like to think that by this point in time I know a decent amount of medicine, but if I were supervising student nurses and expected to teach them how to be RNs, I think I'd do a pretty crappy job because being a doctor is different from being a nurse and requires a different type of knowledge.

The point of 3rd year rotations is to help you better understand the role of physicians in these specialties both to increase your knowledge as a physician and also to help you decide if you want to specialize in that field yourself. I don't know how I would have ever known if I wanted to become a surgeon if I didn't get to work with surgery residents and attendings on my gen surg rotation. An OR nurse's work and lifestyle is not the same as a surgical resident's work will be.
It is embarrassing to our profession that some schools are scamming students out of tens of thousands of dollars and giving these students a sub-par education in return.

I could not agree more. The fact that my school was ok with a nurse "preceptor" even after we complained about it is a slap in the face. I would like to see a faculty member from my school defend this, but guarantee they would dance around it.

 

[LesBois88]

I guess I will just have to learn everything 4th year, I have no choice they wont switch my hospitals.

This is silly. Just because your attending or resident won't pimp you doesn't mean you shouldn't study all relevant aspects of the disease that night. Or, if you don't get to write the note, write your own! Compare it to the notes in the chart/EMR and develop your skills that way.

To sit back and learn nothing would be your fault, ultimately.

I will admit that progressing through most of 3rd year without writing a real note would be odd from an educational standpoint, however.

At TouroCOM (in the "easy" NJ rotation sites) we write formal notes for placement in the chart for FM, IM, surgery, +/- ER, peds, +/- OB/gyn, +/- psych. If you're assigned a place where your notes aren't reviewed you need to be a little bit more proactive.

 

[Flushot]

Ok so what else does it take? If you interview somewhere it's not like they make you go out on the ward and show them your clinical skills.

I can only assume by your profile that you are not a medical student and have no intention to be. I hope that you aren't just basing your assessment on hearsay and what you can glean off the forums, because that seems to happen quite a lot here.

Honoring a garbage rotation means nothing, along with not learning anything. Strong rotation sites and with them strong LORs mean a lot. Your simplified statement of board scores and honoring rotations is not enough. Honestly, you couldn't think of anything else that would be important to an application?

 

[MedPR]

I can only assume by your profile that you are not a medical student and have no intention to be. I hope that you aren't just basing your assessment on hearsay and what you can glean off the forums, because that seems to happen quite a lot here.

Honoring a garbage rotation means nothing, along with not learning anything. Strong rotation sites and with them strong LORs mean a lot. Your simplified statement of board scores and honoring rotations is not enough. Honestly, you couldn't think of anything else that would be important to an application?

But PDs don't know it was a garbage rotation. All they know is you honored it.

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[KnuxNole]

But PDs don't know it was a garbage rotation. All they know is you honored it.

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Unless they are familiar with the rotation site and/or had past residents who rotated there and find out they aren't competent and make a biased call.