Save The Merger

[Xenoblade]

Again, I don't know. I completely admit my ignorance. But people (students, residents, misc. ortho doctors) repeatedly tell me that matching do ortho is much more doable than md ortho. So I believe them.

Maybe there is a regional bias? But I know that the acgme ortho programs in my area attract some of the best applicants from across the country, since I live in a big metro area.

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[DrEnderW]

Maybe there is a regional bias? But I know that the acgme ortho programs in my area attract some of the best applicants from across the country, since I live in a big metro area.

No doubt. The top of ACGME ortho is a different animal. I do research at a top program and the CVs people have there are quite different than "the average."

Either way, it's competitive as ****. I think we can agree on that. Good luck going for it man, hope you get it.

 

[DocEspana]

Again, I don't know. I completely admit my ignorance. But people (students, residents, misc. ortho doctors) repeatedly tell me that matching do ortho is much more doable than md ortho. So I believe them.

Maybe there is a regional bias? But I know that the acgme ortho programs in my area attract some of the best applicants from across the country, since I live in a big metro area.

It's a mixture of "people on SDN will fudge the numbers to make their point and then it becomes dogma" and "measuring difficulty is a complex thing when one group is large and varied and the other is small and monolithic"

 

[TopTomato]

Agreed. From what i have heard, it is generally regarded that it is easier for a do to match aoa ortho than a md to match acgme ortho.

Had the merger not happened, I would have gladly taken my do acceptance because of those protected do ortho spots.

SDN told me don't go DO because it will be harder the match surgical subspecialties. Now SDN is telling me it's easier..

 

[SKaminski]

I'm worried about the competitivness of the specialties after the merger as well.

 

[Xenoblade]

SDN told me don't go DO because it will be harder the match surgical subspecialties. Now SDN is telling me it's easier..

Don't get it twisted.

Easier for aoa ortho. Harder/impossible for acgme ortho.

The protected spots are gone now, so......

 

[TopTomato]

Don't get it twisted.

Easier for aoa ortho. Harder/impossible for acgme ortho.

The protected spots are gone now, so......

Of course cause all those spots are going to those big bad MD juggernauts.

 

[Xenoblade]

Of course cause all those spots are going to those big bad MD juggernauts.

Why you hating on the messenger? I am just reporting it. I didn't create the system.

Chill out.

And I meant that it is harder/impossible for a do to go acgme ortho. Only 6 matched in 2013 outta ~690. That is literally less than 1%.

 

[GUH]

Don't get it twisted.

Easier for aoa ortho. Harder/impossible for acgme ortho.

The protected spots are gone now, so......

The spots are not gone yet.

 

[jakeislove]

Why is it that I always heard nobody wanted to do psych but during my OMS-1 year suddenly everyone wants to do it? I'm afraid that my secret desired specialty hiding place is going to be outed!

Psych is a friggen blast!! It's fun, interesting, challenging, and there are a ton of contexts/ways you can participate in healing.

 

[TopTomato]

Why you hating on the messenger? I am just reporting it. I didn't create the system.

Chill out.

And I meant that it is harder/impossible for a do to go acgme ortho. Only 6 matched in 2013 outta ~690. That is literally less than 1%.

Of course you didn't create it, but you're also doing nothing but throwing speculation around about something that nobody has the answer to. And btw those are only ACGME matches. I'm sure everyone who applied ACGME ortho would have applied AOA ortho as well.

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[costales]

Of course you didn't create it, but you're also doing nothing but throwing speculation around about something that nobody has the answer to. And btw those are only ACGME matches. I'm sure everyone who applied ACGME ortho would have applied AOA ortho as well.

He sure sounds more and more like a self-winding troll.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

SDN told me don't go DO because it will be harder the match surgical subspecialties. Now SDN is telling me it's easier..

Nobody knows for sure. Bottom line is matching into Ortho is hard no matter what. Don't base your decision off a specialty that you will have to choose years from now, especially as a pre-med

 

[Xenoblade]

He sure sounds more and more like a self-winding troll.

Quoting hard facts and numbers makes me a troll?

 

[Xenoblade]

Of course you didn't create it, but you're also doing nothing but throwing speculation around about something that nobody has the answer to. And btw those are only ACGME matches. I'm sure everyone who applied ACGME ortho would have applied AOA ortho as well.

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70% of acgme ortho don't interview and rank dos. So your chances of landing acgme ortho as a do is dismal at best, considering only 6 of those spots went to dos outta 690ish spots.

So I think we should not save the merger, because it hurts dos when landing competitive specialties

 

[TopTomato]

70% of acgme ortho don't interview and rank dos. So your chances of landing acgme ortho as a do is dismal at best, considering only 6 of those spots went to dos outta 690ish spots.

So I think we should not save the merger, because it hurts dos when landing competitive specialties

And you have no idea how PDs will rank DOs post merger. No body does, therefore all of this is speculation at best.

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[NurWollen]

70% of acgme ortho don't interview and rank dos. So your chances of landing acgme ortho as a do is dismal at best, considering only 6 of those spots went to dos outta 690ish spots.

So I think we should not save the merger, because it hurts dos when landing competitive specialties

You still have given no reason to think that MDs will overrun AOA ortho spots.

Speculation, yet again.

 

[Apprands31]

You still have given no reason to think that MDs will overrun AOA ortho spots.

Speculation, yet again.

Yes, even if the merger goes as written, I doubt ACGME trained PD at a traditional AOA program would favor an MD over a DO.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You still have given no reason to think that MDs will overrun AOA ortho spots.

Speculation, yet again.

But he just said it was all facts and numbers

 

[Xenoblade]

But he just said it was all facts and numbers

Getting my arguments twisted again. I said the facts and numbers look bad for do's, not better for md's.

 

[NurWollen]

Getting my arguments twisted again. I said the facts and numbers look bad for do's, not better for md's.

Semantics.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

This thread is......like ESPN - pure speculation

 

[Xenoblade]

Semantics.

Not when you are accusing people of things that they aren't doing.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

70% of acgme ortho don't interview and rank dos. So your chances of landing acgme ortho as a do is dismal at best, considering only 6 of those spots went to dos outta 690ish spots.

So I think we should not save the merger, because it hurts dos when landing competitive specialties

link please to "70 % of acgme ortho" not ranking dos

 

[Xenoblade]

link please to "70 % of acgme ortho" not ranking dos

Look at my post, #122

I guess hard facts make me a troll.

"http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.pdf

on page 105, 70% (or a super majority) of acgme ortho programs do not interview and rank do applicants. And only 6 do's got an ortho acgme spot in 2013."

N >80, so it is a significant sample size.

 

[DrEnderW]

@Xenoblade isn't saying anything unrealistic or untrue here.

In fact, there's no way the other 30% of the ortho programs realistically consider DOs even though they don't officially have a "no osteo" policy. The real number is probably in the 90s that don't consider DOs (100% at top programs) unless there's an inside connection or other circumstances. I do ortho research at a top program and they never have and never will take a DO resident and there are ZERO DOs practicing at that hospital out of hundreds of surgeons. There is extreme preference for academic pedigree and DO schools, if you remove the "no DO policy," will be considered unranked medical schools and the same stigma will apply - we don't rank applicants from unranked medical schools.

The merger will NOT change this fact in the short term, especially not when we are in medical school. It is not speculation to say that we have no idea how PDs will rank DOs after the merger... the fact the the ACGME accredits all the US residency programs has nothing to do with changing the minds of 60 year old academic physicians. It is delusional to think that this process is going to be a magic wand. More importantly, a combined residency app doesn't even have a date on it yet.

Of course it's speculation to think MDs will encroach on AOA spots, just like it's speculation for me to think that it is highly unlikely. I disagree on that point, but it is my educated opinion as well. In real life, the best thing you can do as a DO student if you want a competitive specialty or residency program is to admit and realize you're starting behind the eight ball and plan accordingly.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Look at my post, #122

I guess hard facts make me a troll.

"http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.pdf

on page 105, 70% (or a super majority) of acgme ortho programs do not interview and rank do applicants. And only 6 do's got an ortho acgme spot in 2013."

N >80, so it is a significant sample size.

The part I find funny is that according to this you have a better shot into plastic surgery as a DO than into ortho. I wish these statistics were less vague. It could be the case that a program that takes 6 residents don't accept any DOs and some that take only 1 or 2 do accept them. If we saw statistics this way, we could get a better feel for the real bias instead of pretending every PD and program is equal.

I do agree with these facts and numbers you cite though and your argument is generally sound.

 

[hallowmann]

Lok at my post, #122

I guess hard facts make me a troll.

"http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.df

on page 105, 70% (or a super majority) of acgme ortho programs do not interview and rank do applicants. And only 6 do's got an ortho acgme spot in 2013."

N >80, so it is a significant sample size.

How many DOs applied and ranked ACGME ortho that year?

No offense, but saying 6 matched, without knowing how many total applied is meaningless.

For example there were only about 203 non-US MD senior applicants for ACGME ortho. At least 50 are guaranteed not to be DOs, because 56 more people matched than the number of matched US MD seniors. So that leaves at MOST 153 DO applicants (but really that number is shared with all IMGs, FMGs, and US MD graduates that failed to match).

Now if we assume that the match rate for IMGs, FMGs and US MD graduates in ortho is the same as their average match rates overall, ~50% (realistically this is an overestimation because ortho is a competitive residency with likely a much lower match statistic), then it would be fairly safe to say at least 50 more of that 153 are not DOs (its likely many more than that because there are >3 times the number of IMGs, FMGs and US MD graduates as there are DOs applying ACGME).

Now another arbitrary way to analyze the data would be to say that since DOs represent at most 1/4 of independant applicants, then at most the number of DO applicants for ACGME ortho is something like 50-51, again this is still arbitrary because it assumes distribution of independant applicants across specialties is constant, and it absolutely isn't. But do you see my point? We don't have the data necessary to make any real claims about what that 6 matched DOs means. I mean if its 6 out of 8 applicants that is roughly the same match statistic as US MD seniors.

Realistically the number is probably closer to 20-30 DO applicants, because you could probably safely assume most of the competitive DOs gunning for ortho already matched AOA. Without a combined match there really is no way to tell how competitive DOs really are for these fields on the ACGME side.

Now as far as ACGME Ortho PDs go, I'd probably say that I don't interview/rank DOs either if at most 2% of my applicants were DOs. When that number is closer to 10-15% I might change my mind.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying its easy for DOs to match ACGME ortho (its absolutely not), but I'm saying we don't have the statistics to really tell us anything, so most of what any of us can say is speculation.

 

[Gatorman177]

Well at least this is proof to any IMG that thinks they have a leg up on DOs.

 

[jakeislove]

Well at least this is proof to any IMG that thinks they have a leg up on DOs.

The next few years will be very interesting, LOL!

 

[Gatorman177]

The next few years will be very interesting, LOL!

You mean with respect to IMGs?

 

[Xenoblade]

The part I find funny is that according to this you have a better shot into plastic surgery as a DO than into ortho. I wish these statistics were less vague. It could be the case that a program that takes 6 residents don't accept any DOs and some that take only 1 or 2 do accept them. If we saw statistics this way, we could get a better feel for the real bias instead of pretending every PD and program is equal.

I do agree with these facts and numbers you cite though and your argument is generally sound.

Those stats don't show the whole picture for plastics. Less than 6 do's matched into acgme plastics in the last 5 years.

 

[Xenoblade]

How many DOs applied and ranked ACGME ortho that year?

No offense, but saying 6 matched, without knowing how many total applied is meaningless.

For example there were only about 203 non-US MD senior applicants for ACGME ortho. At least 50 are guaranteed not to be DOs, because 56 more people matched than the number of matched US MD seniors. So that leaves at MOST 153 DO applicants (but really that number is shared with all IMGs, FMGs, and US MD graduates that failed to match).

Now if we assume that the match rate for IMGs, FMGs and US MD graduates in ortho is the same as their average match rates overall, ~50% (realistically this is an overestimation because ortho is a competitive residency with likely a much lower match statistic), then it would be fairly safe to say at least 50 more of that 153 are not DOs (its likely many more than that because there are >3 times the number of IMGs, FMGs and US MD graduates as there are DOs applying ACGME).

Now another arbitrary way to analyze the data would be to say that since DOs represent at most 1/4 of independant applicants, then at most the number of DO applicants for ACGME ortho is something like 50-51, again this is still arbitrary because it assumes distribution of independant applicants across specialties is constant, and it absolutely isn't. But do you see my point? We don't have the data necessary to make any real claims about what that 6 matched DOs means. I mean if its 6 out of 8 applicants that is roughly the same match statistic as US MD seniors.

Realistically the number is probably closer to 20-30 DO applicants, because you could probably safely assume most of the competitive DOs gunning for ortho already matched AOA. Without a combined match there really is no way to tell how competitive DOs really are for these fields on the ACGME side.

Now as far as ACGME Ortho PDs go, I'd probably say that I don't interview/rank DOs either if at most 2% of my applicants were DOs. When that number is closer to 10-15% I might change my mind.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying its easy for DOs to match ACGME ortho (its absolutely not), but I'm saying we don't have the statistics to really tell us anything, so most of what any of us can say is speculation.

^^^^^^^^^^All I hear is speculation. It doesn't matter how many do's apply to acgme because 70% (or a supermajority) automatically dump do applications in the trash. More DO's applying just means more apps in the trash. This is just a reality when pd's don't consider do's.

Facts are that in 2013, only 6 matched into acgme ortho. That is less than 1%. only 30% of pds interview and rank do's.

 

[jakeislove]

You mean with respect to IMGs?

For all concerned parties.

The bias and infighting is unlikely to stop, especially considering how many unmatched IMGs will applying again next cycle.

 

[Gatorman177]

For all concerned parties.

The bias and infighting is unlikely to stop, especially considering how many unmatched IMGs will applying again next cycle.

@jakeislove are you and IMG or DO student? Not sure how unmatched IMGs would be a game changer.

 

[Xenoblade]

^^^^^^^^^^All I hear is speculation. It doesn't matter how many do's apply to acgme because 70% (or a supermajority) automatically dump do applications in the trash. More DO's applying just means more apps in the trash. This is just a reality when pd's don't consider do's.

Facts are that in 2013, only 6 matched into acgme ortho. That is less than 1%. only 30% of pds interview and rank do's.

These are the EXACT reasons why I think we should NOT save the merger. Do's need those protected spots for competitive residencies.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Those stats don't show the whole picture for plastics. Less than 6 do's matched into acgme plastics in the last 5 years.

Dude. You know I just used your exact argument and now you're trying to debunk it, right?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Dude. You know I just used your exact argument and now you're trying to debunk it, right?

I noticed the same thing in like 3 different posts.

 

[DocVapor]

These are the EXACT reasons why I think we should NOT save the merger. Do's need those protected spots for competitive residencies.

I thought you either are, or are going to be, an MD student? I'm confused now.

 

[Xenoblade]

Dude. You know I just used your exact argument and now you're trying to debunk it, right?

Are you KIDDING ME?!

you keep twisting my words.

Each specialty is different. ortho =/= plastics. so stats for one specialty doesn't reveal the whole picture for another. Yes, that survey points that plastics is more open to ortho, but the stats of the number of do acgme plastics is dismal, at best since there are years where ZERO do applicants are accepted. I used two stats to describe the ortho, and plastics situation. I've been consistent.

I truly have to question your ability to process information and to critically think scientifically. Forget creationist's ability's. Scrutinize your own.

 

[jakeislove]

@jakeislove are you and IMG or DO student? Not sure how unmatched IMGs would be a game changer.

American Carrib student, graduating in 6 months. A lot of people missed the match so it'll be very crowded. I have only spoken to one classmate that planned on applying to a DO program. Being told "apply broadly and take anything, anywhere" by Attendings gets old quick, LOL!

 

[Xenoblade]

I thought you either are, or are going to be, an MD student? I'm confused now.

you are correct. look at my sig. But i don't think the merger should go through because it screws over my do counterparts who are applying for competitive residencies. Some of your (future) classmates will need those spots because of the dumb bias.

 

[DocVapor]

you are correct. look at my sig. But i don't think the merger should go through because it screws over my do counterparts who are applying for competitive residencies. Some of your (future) classmates will need those spots.

Ok. I've got SDN set to only show signatures in the first post on each page, and I hadn't scrolled up to find it. Just wanted to know where you were coming from.

 

[Petypet]

you are correct. look at my sig. But i don't think the merger should go through because it screws over my do counterparts who are applying for competitive residencies. Some of your (future) classmates will need those spots because of the dumb bias.

And helps the many more that wish to do fellowship

 

[Xenoblade]

And helps the many more that wish to do fellowship

true. But it doesn't help you if you cannot land the ortho residency first because they took away your protected spots.

 

[Xenoblade]

Ok. I've got SDN set to only show signatures in the first post on each page, and I hadn't scrolled up to find it. Just wanted to know where you were coming from.

I have little to gain from the merger, according to people on sdn who said md's won't crack aoa's. But some people have a lot to lose, and that doesn't sit well with me. that is pretty awful. do's get the short end of the stick in a lot of areas. Now, it looks like some protected spots might close down or open up to md's. If this merger goes through, a small/tiny minority gets shafted for the greater good. I can never advocate any deal where one group gains at a significant cost to another, no matter how small that group may be. Just my philosophical bend.

 

[Petypet]

There are 40 DO residencies in ortho. If you get out gunned by an MD to one of those spots, then so be it. That's on you for not rotating there, shining, and getting a 600+ comlex (which isn't frankly that hard). It is not going to be easy for MDs to rotate at core osteopathic hospitals, and I have been led to believe by talking with our coordinator that it won't be easy for MDs to get audition spots.

There a TON more DOs that will be helped out with the ability to get into a fellowship than students trying and failing to match ortho.

 

[Petypet]

If this merger goes through, a small/tiny minority gets shafted for the greater good.

The cream of the crop DO students are going to get shafted? I think those students are smart enough to ensure that the match somewhere. And god forbid, a better MD student gets an ortho spot, and that DO has to do gen surg or something more in demand to help society.

 

[DocVapor]

I have little to gain from the merger, according to people on sdn who said md's won't crack aoa's. But some people have a lot to lose, and that doesn't sit well with me. that is pretty awful. do's get the short end of the stick in a lot of areas. Now, it looks like some protected spots might close down or open up to md's. If this merger goes through, a small/tiny minority gets shafted for the greater good. I can never advocate any deal where one group gains at a significant cost to another, no matter how small that group may be. Just my philosophical bend.

If the merger doesn't go through, TONS of DO's in AOA residencies that want fellowships only offered by the ACGME get shafted for the good of the (very tiny) minority.

 

[Petypet]

If the merger doesn't go through, TONS of DO's in AOA residencies that want fellowships only offered by the ACGME get shafted for the good of the (very tiny) minority.

IE almost every fellowship but NMM +1