Save The Merger

[Xenoblade]

If the merger doesn't go through, TONS of DO's in AOA residencies that want fellowships only offered by the ACGME get shafted for the good of the (very tiny) minority.

again, just a difference in philosophy.

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[Petypet]

ie. better to screw the majority and frankly a lot of patients that would depend on those osteopathic residents that do fellowship at an acgme site, rather than 20 or 30 meat head ortho's (I say that in jest)

 

[DrEnderW]

If the merger doesn't go through, TONS of DO's in AOA residencies that want fellowships only offered by the ACGME get shafted

This is critically important.

Again, this is why competing against a few bottom MD students compared to not having fellowship access is a small concern of mine. The though of doing something like AOA gen surg without the ability to access fellowships is horrifying.

 

[Petypet]

This is critically important.

Again, this is why competing against a few bottom MD students compared to not having fellowship access is a small concern of mine. The though of doing something like AOA gen surg without the ability to access fellowships is horrifying.

And there are ALOT of current residents that depend on doing ACGME fellowships from quality osteopathic residencies

 

[Xenoblade]

ie. better to screw the majority and frankly a lot of patients that would depend on those osteopathic residents that do fellowship at an acgme site, rather than 20 or 30 meat head ortho's (I say that in jest)

well, what is stopping those nerds from applying to acgme residencies right now without the merger? Noncompetitive specialties are much more open to accept do's than acgme meatheads.

lol, meatheads. nerds. It's high school all over again.

And wouldn't those acgme fellowships just go to another md if a do didn't take it? serious question. I'm guessing those fellowships aren't exactly unfilled each year. so the patient will not be missing much because someone else will just take it if do's can't crack it.

i just think that it is unconscionable to screw over a small minority so badly, given their already grim situation, when the vast majority can still land moderately competitive acgme residencies and fellowships if they work a little harder. The small minority are barred out on some specialties even if they win the nobel peace prize, and those protected spots was a step in leveling the playing field.

 

[Petypet]

well, what is stopping those nerds from applying to acgme residencies right now without the merger? Noncompetitive specialties are much more open to accept do's than acgme meatheads.

lol, meatheads. nerds. It's high school all over again.

And wouldn't those acgme fellowships just go to another md if a do didn't take it? serious question. I'm guessing those fellowships aren't exactly unfilled each year. so the patient will not be missing much because someone else will just take it if do's can't crack it.

i just think that it is unconscionable to screw over a small minority so badly, given their already grim situation, when the vast majority can still land moderately competitive acgme residencies and fellowships if they work a little harder. The small minority are barred out on some specialties even if they win the nobel peace prize, and those protected spots was a step in leveling the playing field.

I don't know about all fellowships, but I am intimately familiar with some fields. There are a lot of fellowships that go unfilled currently, and more that would be even more empty (anesthesia fellowships, trauma surgery, critical care, CT surg). I am guessing that some of the easier IM fellowships too would start to go unfilled, as well as those that are already unfilled (geriatrics, endo).

If you think about it though, the DO thing is primary care. Going to a DO school, you shouldn't count on doing ortho, and count your blessings if you play your cards right early on and are given the chance to do a speciality like ortho.

 

[Petypet]

And as it stands, a lot of students don't need to goto ACGME residency to do a fellowship, so why go through all the hoops to do so. Think trauma surgery for example. It is foolish as a DO to commit to ACGME gen-surg when it is very competitive, meanwhile there are plenty of quality gen-surg DO programs that are relatively easy to get in to. From there a DO can go to almost ANY trauma fellowship in the country, and end up at the same place as a trauma surgeon.

 

[DocVapor]

well, what is stopping those nerds from applying to acgme residencies right now without the merger? Noncompetitive specialties are much more open to accept do's than acgme meatheads.

The match gamble is what's stopping them. Many ACGME-quality DO applicants are unwilling to take the risk and forego the AOA match completely, and guess what? They end up matching AOA, which they have to take. The merger is a great first step towards removing that gamble, and while it won't come around in time to help me out (barring a miracle), a unified match would be a great equalizer.

And wouldn't those acgme fellowships just go to another md if a do didn't take it? serious question. I'm guessing those fellowships aren't exactly unfilled each year. so the patient will not be missing much because someone else will just take it if do's can't crack it.[

i just think that it is unconscionable to screw over a small minority so badly, given their already grim situation, when the vast majority can still land moderately competitive acgme residencies and fellowships if they work a little harder. The small minority are barred out on some specialties even if they win the nobel peace prize, and those protected spots was a step in leveling the playing field.

I think @Petypet handled the reply to this section fairly well.

 

[Xenoblade]

If you think about it though, the DO thing is primary care. Going to a DO school, you shouldn't count on doing ortho, and count your blessings if you play your cards right early on and are given the chance to do a speciality like ortho.

I disagree it this. I never understood why do's should go to primary care. Why is it so besides self selection?

I think the field of osteo is great for ortho because of the focus on the musculoskeletal system.

 

[Xenoblade]

And as it stands, a lot of students don't need to goto ACGME residency to do a fellowship, so why go through all the hoops to do so. Think trauma surgery for example. It is foolish as a DO to commit to ACGME gen-surg when it is very competitive, meanwhile there are plenty of quality gen-surg DO programs that are relatively easy to get in to. From there a DO can go to almost ANY trauma fellowship in the country, and end up at the same place as a trauma surgeon.

"There are 40 DO residencies in ortho. If you get out gunned by an MD to one of those spots, then so be it."

now you are tripping over your arguments. If an ortho gets gunned by an md, then so be it. But if a do has the potential to be gunned by a md for gen surg, then it is foolish for them to take that spot.

lol.

 

[Xenoblade]

I'm over this thread. saving the merger hurts and helps dos.

If screwing over a few of your classmates for your own benefit sits well with you, then so be it. That's not right. It's ugly. It doesn't sit well with me. I would not support this deal as it is written.

Also, if it is ok to screw over a minority for the greater good, then that dangerous logic can be justified in screwing over dos, because there are more mds than dos. after all, it is for the greater good/majority.

Remember, md's hold most of the cards. They have more money. they have more influence. Lobbying power is much more powerful. There are more famous mds. people almost universally recognize the md degree. They have the fellowship spots. I'd be weary of joining an organization where you lose a lot of your autonomy and you are the underdogs.

Think about it. Really think about it.

It is in your best interest to stay separate imho (emphasis on the o because it is an o).

GB. I have stuff to take care of for my SOM.

 

[DocVapor]

I literally just got this email:

Update on New Single GME Accreditation System

Dear Colleagues:

With five weeks to go until the AOA House of Delegates, AOA board and staff leadership continue our work to build member awareness and understanding of the new single GME accreditation system. We are seeing increased support of the initiative. State and specialty society leaders are gaining a full understanding that this is the beginning of a process, not an end-point from which there is no return. We are attending meetings, joining calls, and sharing correspondence with leaders of state and specialty organizations, our members and students.

To date, 20 state affiliates have passed resolutions in support of the new single GME accreditation system: Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin. The following specialty affiliates have also shared their support: the American Academy of Osteopathy, the American College of Osteopathic Emergency Physicians, the American College of Osteopathic Neurologists and Psychiatrists, the American College of Osteopathic Surgeons, and the American Osteopathic Academy of Orthopedics, as well as the American Association of Osteopathic Examiners. Many organizations and individuals continue to send letters of support as well.

Leaders of the AOA, AACOM and ACGME continue to meet. On May 29, the Joint Leadership Task Force met to discuss the process and timeline for committee nominations, development of standards, data sharing, education, and staff recruitment. In addition, a committee of clinical and education leaders of the AOA, AACOM and ACGME have been meeting to discuss educating OGME institutions and programs on the new accreditation process. The plan is to build education forums into already-scheduled meetings beginning in July 2014.

Following are summaries of key outcomes from these meetings:

• AOA-accredited programs may apply for accreditation beginning July 1, 2015, which will give them “pre-accreditation” status.
• Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institutions (OPTIs) and other institutions may begin to apply for accreditation as early as April 2015.
• We have asked the AOA Council on Postdoctoral Training to develop draft standards to submit to the new Osteopathic Principles Committee this fall.
• The AOA and AACOM will both have directors appointed to the ACGME’s Board of Directors, and the nominees will be submitted by July 2014.
• Our nomination process for the Residency Review Committees (RRCs) will be open in July 2014, with nominees submitted by September 2014.
• The ACGME is recruiting an AOA board-certified DO to serve as Senior Vice President, responsible for osteopathic graduate medical accreditation in the new system. Details are posted online.
• The AOA continues to monitor activities within the current ACGME system as we transition to the new accreditation system. As we become aware of changes or concerns with existing or proposed standards, we are working in partnership with the ACGME and our specialty colleges to address each one.

AOA President-elect Robert Juhasz, DO, and AACOM Board of Deans Chair Kenneth Veit, DO, participated in an ACGME orientation this week, and they will present to the full ACGME Board of Directors this Sunday. Their presentation, entitled “Who We Are, What We Do, and Why It Matters,” provides an overview of the osteopathic medical profession and our approach to training.

We’re making significant progress building the new single GME accreditation system. We will continue to provide updates on activities as they become available.

Your AOA leaders are here to support you and proudly advocate for the interest of the osteopathic medical profession. If you have any questions regarding the new single GME accreditation system, please feel free to contact us at [email protected]. Thank you.

Norman E. Vinn, DO
AOA President

 

[NeuroLAX]

I'm over this thread. saving the merger hurts and helps dos.

If screwing over a few of your classmates for your own benefit sits well with you, then so be it. That's not right. It's ugly. It doesn't sit well with me. I would not support this deal as it is written.

Also, if it is ok to screw over a minority for the greater good, then that dangerous logic can be justified in screwing over dos, because there are more mds than dos. after all, it is for the greater good/majority.

Remember, md's hold most of the cards. They have more money. they have more influence. Lobbying power is much more powerful. There are more famous mds. people almost universally recognize the md degree. They have the fellowship spots. I'd be weary of joining an organization where you lose a lot of your autonomy and you are the underdogs.

Think about it. Really think about it.

It is in your best interest to stay separate imho (emphasis on the o because it is an o).

GB. I have stuff to take care of for my SOM.

I literally can't even.... staying separate is NOT in our best interest. I believe it contributed to what got us here in the first place.

 

[DocVapor]

I'm over this thread. saving the merger hurts and helps dos.

Yup. Nobody likes it, but the hand was forced.

If screwing over a few of your classmates for your own benefit sits well with you, then so be it. That's not right. It's ugly. It doesn't sit well with me. I would not support this deal as it is written.

What you don't seem to understand is that you are saying that lots of DO's should fall on their swords to help save a couple ortho applicants. Yes, we are all DO's, but we all have to look out for our own interests first. I shouldn't have to limit my future options to save the few weak ortho applicants that may possibly (read: not definitely) lose their spot. Would you give up your ability to subspecialize so that someone else could get their coveted Derm spot?

Also, if it is ok to screw over a minority for the greater good, then that dangerous logic can be justified in screwing over dos, because there are more mds than dos. after all, it is for the greater good/majority.

Remember, md's hold most of the cards. They have more money. they have more influence. Lobbying power is much more powerful. There are more famous mds. people almost universally recognize the md degree. They have the fellowship spots. I'd be weary of joining an organization where you lose a lot of your autonomy and you are the underdogs.

Think about it. Really think about it.

DO's are already marginalized and were LOSING OUT because the ACGME's fellowship clause. The whole point of the merger is to maintain opportunities for DO's. Without the merger (or the miracle of the ACGME removing the clause), the osteopathic profession was doomed.

It is in your best interest to stay separate imho (emphasis on the o because it is an o).

GB. I have stuff to take care of for my SOM.

Best of luck to you.

 

[GUH]

What percent if DO's attend an AOA residency followed by an ACGME fellowship? My assumption is that it is a small minority but I would honestly like to know.

 

[NeuroLAX]

What percent if DO's attend an AOA residency followed by an ACGME fellowship? My assumption is that it is a small minority but I would honestly like to know.

I'd also like to know this, but it doesn't change the fact that going backwards is ultimately the wrong direction.

 

[Makati2008]

I literally just got this email:

So I skimmed through the letter and I am confused. People on here were/are claiming their programs are already in provisional accreditation status? Would they be incorrect since the letter list July 15

 

[Petypet]

What percent if DO's attend an AOA residency followed by an ACGME fellowship? My assumption is that it is a small minority but I would honestly like to know.

Quite a few do. They aren't name brand fellowships, but to name some that have graduated within the last 8 years from OUCOM that are common 1. any surgical fellowship (ct, trauma, critical care, vascular, colorectal) other than plastics, numerous anesthesiology fellowships, geriatrics, endocrine, a few more IM specialities, hospice, critical care, ID, some EM fellowships such as US and EMS have all matched to a fellowship post DO residency. There are probably more too that don't utilize ERAS.

If screwing over a few of your classmates for your own benefit sits well with you, then so be it. That's not right. It's ugly. It doesn't sit well with me. I would not support this deal as it is written.

Also, if it is ok to screw over a minority for the greater good, then that dangerous logic can be justified in screwing over dos, because there are more mds than dos. after all, it is for the greater good/majority.

Robin Hood, we aren't "screwing" a minority for the the sake of it. A small amount of orthos may lose their spot yes. Who knows maybe even more orthos will be offered spots in MD residencies as a result of this. Either way, many more people are affected if this doesn't happen, which in that case we would be screwing a majority. Rock and hard place, screw a few do orthos, screw a lot of qualified residents that want fellowship. Also, we have no idea what the landscape will actually look like when the dust settles. Will traditional DO programs open up to MDs, and traditional MD programs open up to DOs, the current feeling among a lot of people is probably not within the immediate future.

Just out of curiosity, why the interest in DO ortho so much? Altruism is great but seems like a hidden agenda here.

 

[hallowmann]

^^^^^^^^^^All I hear is speculation. It doesn't matter how many do's apply to acgme because 70% (or a supermajority) automatically dump do applications in the trash. More DO's applying just means more apps in the trash. This is just a reality when pd's don't consider do's.

Facts are that in 2013, only 6 matched into acgme ortho. That is less than 1%. only 30% of pds interview and rank do's.

Wow, you completely missed my point. You can say all you want, DOs filled only 1% of ACGME ortho, but that percentage is meaningless without knowing how many even applied ACGME ortho. On top of that, of all ACGME applicants, DOs constitute <8%. Heck US-IMGs and non-US-IMGs each individually are significantly larger groups than DOs (ACGME applicants for 2013 - DOs = ~2700, US-IMGs = ~5300, non-US-IMGs = ~7100). Its meaningless to use percentage of ACGME spots filled as a metric for how DO friendly a field is, because to begin with its about 10 times more likely for an MD to fill any ACGME spot (simple probability).

And like I said, if I were a PD, and I got 1 app/yr from a DO and thousands of others from MDs, I'd probably say I don't interview/rank DOs, because up to now I haven't. (Again speculation).

And way to point out it was speculation, its not like I explicitly stated that virtually everything is speculation without the complete data. Was it the parts where I said that I was drawing arbitrary comparisons that tipped you off?

Again, I'm not saying ACGME ortho is DO-friendly, but you keep using statistics irrationally, and its annoying me. Get a good grasp of what it means, then make your point. Saying 6 DOs matched ACGME ortho is meaningless unless we know how many applied. How is that so hard to get? If it was 6, well then, DOs might have a better chance at matching ACGME ortho than MDs (I'm being facetious to make the point - obviously such a small sample size would not be all that meaningful).

I'm over this thread. saving the merger hurts and helps dos.

If screwing over a few of your classmates for your own benefit sits well with you, then so be it. That's not right. It's ugly. It doesn't sit well with me. I would not support this deal as it is written.

Also, if it is ok to screw over a minority for the greater good, then that dangerous logic can be justified in screwing over dos, because there are more mds than dos. after all, it is for the greater good/majority.

No one gets everything they want in a negotiation. Its pretty common not just in medicine, but in the world at large for some people to have to sacrifice so their group as a whole benefits. Its kind of what every society does... ever... (ever heard of a military?)

Remember, md's hold most of the cards. They have more money. they have more influence. Lobbying power is much more powerful. There are more famous mds. people almost universally recognize the md degree. They have the fellowship spots. I'd be weary of joining an organization where you lose a lot of your autonomy and you are the underdogs.

Think about it. Really think about it.

It is in your best interest to stay separate imho (emphasis on the o because it is an o).

GB. I have stuff to take care of for my SOM.

You're absolutely right, MDs do hold a heck of a lot of the cards. So seeing as how we absolutely depend on the ACGME for >50% of our residency training, your argument is to cut ourselves off from them, as opposed to taking them up on an agreement that would give us 28% of the seats in their governing body (of which we currently have 0 seats on)? I see you are a shrewd negotiator. I mean why put ourselves at the whim of 72% of the ACGME when we can put ourselves at the whim of 100%? Right?

 

[GUH]

Wow, you completely missed my point. You can say all you want, DOs filled only 1% of ACGME ortho, but that percentage is meaningless without knowing how many even applied ACGME ortho. On top of that, of all ACGME applicants, DOs constitute <8%. Heck US-IMGs and non-US-IMGs each individually are significantly larger groups than DOs (ACGME applicants for 2013 - DOs = ~2700, US-IMGs = ~5300, non-US-IMGs = ~7100). Its meaningless to use percentage of ACGME spots filled as a metric for how DO friendly a field is, because to begin with its about 10 times more likely for an MD to fill any ACGME spot (simple probability).

And like I said, if I were a PD, and I got 1 app/yr from a DO and thousands of others from MDs, I'd probably say I don't interview/rank DOs, because up to now I haven't. (Again speculation).

And way to point out it was speculation, its not like I explicitly stated that virtually everything is speculation without the complete data. Was it the parts where I said that I was drawing arbitrary comparisons that tipped you off?

Again, I'm not saying ACGME ortho is DO-friendly, but you keep using statistics irrationally, and its annoying me. Get a good grasp of what it means, then make your point. Saying 6 DOs matched ACGME ortho is meaningless unless we know how many applied. How is that so hard to get? If it was 6, well then, DOs might have a better chance at matching ACGME ortho than MDs (I'm being facetious to make the point - obviously such a small sample size would not be all that meaningful).



No one gets everything they want in a negotiation. Its pretty common not just in medicine, but in the world at large for some people to have to sacrifice so their group as a whole benefits. Its kind of what every society does... ever... (ever heard of a military?)



You're absolutely right, MDs do hold a heck of a lot of the cards. So seeing as how we absolutely depend on the ACGME for >50% of our residency training, your argument is to cut ourselves off from them, as opposed to taking them up on an agreement that would give us 28% of the seats in their governing body (of which we currently have 0 seats on)? I see you are a shrewd negotiator. I mean why put ourselves at the whim of 72% of the ACGME when we can put ourselves at the whim of 100%? Right?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

According to the ortho PD's themselves, graduating from a US allopathic medical school (read: not being a DO) is held as equally important as your Step 1 score and even more important than your Step 2 score, your Dean's Letter, or even your clerkship grades (page 101). Only 30% rank DO's at all (page 105). Now maybe some of that is due to there being less applicants but to pretend that discrimination in competitive fields might just be a myth is simply not justified by the facts.

For those who support the merger, it would be much more productive to collaborate with others to move the entire medical profession in the US forward by advocating for fairer treatment for you and other osteopathic physicians while we are still engaged in negotiations rather than simply ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away on its own.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

According to the ortho PD's themselves, graduating from a US allopathic medical school (read: not being a DO) is held as equally important as your Step 1 score and even more important than your Step 2 score, your Dean's Letter, or even your clerkship grades (page 101). Only 30% rank DO's at all (page 105). Now maybe some of that is due to there being less applicants but to pretend that discrimination in competitive fields might just be a myth is simply not justified by the facts.

For those who support the merger, it would be much more productive to collaborate with others to move the entire medical profession in the US forward by advocating for fairer treatment for you and other osteopathic physicians while we are still engaged in negotiations rather than simply ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away on its own.

I don't think he's ignoring the problem. In fact he's taking it head on.

Here's the thing. If you lock a door, people will have a poor time communicating. If you open a door, the dialogue will be less muffled and much more clear. If you allow someone inside your house and they see that you have decent furniture, then they'll have a better opinion of you.

Yes, it's a childish analogy, but it's an honest one. No one said that build a bridge is easy, nor that until it's done you won't benefit much from it. But once you have a completed bridge, you're not going to have to swim across anymore.

 

[hallowmann]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

According to the ortho PD's themselves, graduating from a US allopathic medical school (read: not being a DO) is held as equally important as your Step 1 score and even more important than your Step 2 score, your Dean's Letter, or even your clerkship grades (page 101). Only 30% rank DO's at all (page 105). Now maybe some of that is due to there being less applicants but to pretend that discrimination in competitive fields might just be a myth is simply not justified by the facts.

For those who support the merger, it would be much more productive to collaborate with others to move the entire medical profession in the US forward by advocating for fairer treatment for you and other osteopathic physicians while we are still engaged in negotiations rather than simply ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away on its own.

I see you missed the part where I said that I'm not saying ACGME ortho is DO friendly, just that he's using meaningless statistics (meaningless because we lack the data to make it meaningful).

No one is ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away. The thing is that one of the best ways to make it go away is to keep moving along the same trajectory we've been moving on for a decade. More DOs applying ACGME will mean more getting residencies, which ultimately means more residencies becoming comfortable taking DOs. No one thinks that DO bias is going away any time soon, but its foolish to think that it won't continue to reduce as it has for years.

 

[NurWollen]

I literally just got this email:

I got the email too. It appears that those who support the merger vastly outnumber those who oppose it.

Did anyone read the post from Dr. Ferretti from the saveogme site that I linked at the beginning? It's uhh... interesting, to say the least.
Here it is again: http://www.saveogme.com/acgme-sword

 

[Petypet]

I got the email too. It appears that those who support the merger vastly outnumber those who oppose it.

Did anyone read the post from Dr. Ferretti from the saveogme site that I linked at the beginning? It's uhh... interesting, to say the least.
Here it is again: http://www.saveogme.com/acgme-sword

This site and its founders are a joke. I have a feeling the founders of this site hired a PR group to run this crap. They want to defame our profession, but they don't want any dialogue. Posting questions on their blog, emailing them, emailing their contacts, and no response.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I got the email too. It appears that those who support the merger vastly outnumber those who oppose it.

Did anyone read the post from Dr. Ferretti from the saveogme site that I linked at the beginning? It's uhh... interesting, to say the least.
Here it is again: http://www.saveogme.com/acgme-sword

Not surprised... so glad I'm not associated with their institution.

 

[SurgeDO]

I got the email too. It appears that those who support the merger vastly outnumber those who oppose it.

Did anyone read the post from Dr. Ferretti from the saveogme site that I linked at the beginning? It's uhh... interesting, to say the least.
Here it is again: http://www.saveogme.com/acgme-sword

Never have I cringed so hard.

 

[meliora27]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

According to the ortho PD's themselves, graduating from a US allopathic medical school (read: not being a DO) is held as equally important as your Step 1 score and even more important than your Step 2 score, your Dean's Letter, or even your clerkship grades (page 101). Only 30% rank DO's at all (page 105). Now maybe some of that is due to there being less applicants but to pretend that discrimination in competitive fields might just be a myth is simply not justified by the facts.

Assuming the merger goes through, and now MD's would be able to match into historically "DO programs", it would be interesting if the AOA or AACOM or some other large organization sent a letter to program directors or department chairs whose programs specifically state they will not interview/accept/allow DO's to even rotate, and ask for their rationale.

 

[SnowDoggy44]

"What will the prerequisites be?
Dr. Juhasz: They aren’t finalized yet, but they will be substantial. We want to make sure that MD graduates entering osteopathically focused programs have a good understanding of both OPP and osteopathic manipulative treatment."
http://thedo.osteopathic.org/2014/06/qa-straight-talk-with-aoa-leaders-about-new-single-gme-system/

Given that the prerequisites will be substantial, I foresee a significant roadblock especially for FMGs and IMGs finding the time and travel resources to complete the prerequisites. I say this assuming there is some hands-on aspect of it and it is not just an online course or reading a book followed by an exam. I don't anticipate FMGs and IMGs will provide much competition for residency programs maintaining an osteopathic focus, and I find this encouraging.

 

[Jwalker]

I know a DO residency director who already has MDs calling him about spots. He said if the merger goes through he would just stick them in OMS-1 and OMS-11 OPP labs 2x a week! LOL #back2MedSkewl

 

[Makati2008]

I know a DO residency director who already has MDs calling him about spots. He said if the merger goes through he would just stick them in OMS-1 and OMS-11 OPP labs 2x a week! LOL #back2MedSkewl

I think that's fair lol.

 

[jakeislove]

Being required to learning some techniques wouldn't stop people.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

OMM is such a joke though that anybody who knows anatomy could "learn" it in a weekend or two

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

OMM is such a joke though that anybody who knows anatomy could "learn" it in a weekend or two

Learn it in a week, forget it for life?

Brilliant.jpg

 

[Petypet]

Learn it in a week, forget it for life?

Brilliant.jpg

False. Step 1, learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.
Step 2 , learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.
Step 3, learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Learn it in a week, forget it for life?

Brilliant.jpg

Thats how 99% of DO students would do it if we only had to take one OPP competency exam.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

False. Step 1, learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.
Step 2 , learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.
Step 3, learn it for a week, regurgitate it. Brain dump.

I'm agreeing with him....

It would make more sense if I had the jpg. I'm just on my phone.

 

[Petypet]

t-24 hours until my first brain dump

 

[DrEnderW]

t-24 hours until my first brain dump

GL!

 

[Makati2008]

t-24 hours until my first brain dump

Right behind you lol. No Omm ever again for me

 

[Xenoblade]

Just out of curiosity, why the interest in DO ortho so much? Altruism is great but seems like a hidden agenda here.

Guess that makes me a saint then.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Right behind you lol. No Omm ever again for me

How could you say that?!?!? I thought you went to DO school to love and embrace OMM!!!

 

[GUH]

OMM is such a joke though that anybody who knows anatomy could "learn" it in a weekend or two

Techniques, maybe. Palpatory skills sufficient for competency, absolutely not.

 

[Makati2008]

Techniques, maybe. Palpatory skills sufficient for competency, absolutely not.

Gotta disagree when you telling me the skull can move and you can feel it I call bs. It's fused together.....

 

[NeuroLAX]

Gotta disagree when you telling me the skull can move and you can feel it I call bs. It's fused together.....

I'm right there with you on the cranial, but that is a small portion of the curriculum that inevitably turns into 4 hours of nap time across two weeks.

 

[GUH]

Gotta disagree when you telling me the skull can move and you can feel it I call bs. It's fused together.....

There is more to osteopathic palpation than that and you know it.

 

[Petypet]

There is more to osteopathic palpation than that and you know it.

First year was cool, learned ME, FPR, SCS, etc. 2nd year we went off the deep end, and once you start telling me to palpate the CRI or the mesenteric ganglion to reset the sympathetics, I tell you I have a bridge for sale.

 

[Makati2008]

There is more to osteopathic palpation than that and you know it.

Ok again when someone tells me you can treat ADHD with an Omm technique you lose almost all cred with me. If Omm is so good why don't many of us use it? Where are the studies to back it up?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Ok again when someone tells me you can treat ADHD with an Omm technique you lose almost all cred with me. If Omm is so good why don't many of us use it? Where are the studies to back it up?

he done gone drinked the koolaid

 

[GUH]

Ok again when someone tells me you can treat ADHD with an Omm technique you lose almost all cred with me. If Omm is so good why don't many of us use it? Where are the studies to back it up?

If your goal here is to simply attack Osteopathic Medicine then start a new thread.

First year was cool, learned ME, FPR, SCS, etc. 2nd year we went off the deep end, and once you start telling me to palpate the CRI or the mesenteric ganglion to reset the sympathetics, I tell you I have a bridge for sale.

These may be fair points of criticism. But do you honestly believe that "anyone with a basic knowledge of anatomy" can become truly competent at even just those techniques you learned during first year (and properly diagnosing and monitoring the somatic dysfunction) in just a few days?
Many "Kool-Aid drinkers" are happy that MDs will be learning some OMT and learning how to actually touch their patients. But a half-ass training regimen will undermine the credibility of good OMM practice and more importantly, risk putting patients in harm's way.

 

[Makati2008]

If your goal here is to simply attack Osteopathic Medicine then start a new thread.
These may be fair points of criticism. But do you honestly believe that "anyone with a basic knowledge of anatomy" can become truly competent at even just those techniques you learned during first year (and properly diagnosing and monitoring the somatic dysfunction) in just a few days?
Many "Kool-Aid drinkers" are happy that MDs will be learning some OMT and learning how to actually touch their patients. But a half-ass training regimen will undermine the credibility of good OMM practice and more importantly, risk putting patients in harm's way.

Not attacking my profession. We just need less Omm (mainly cranial) and more science/EBM.