B.S. in dentistry?

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When my parents went to UIC dental in the late 70's they said that the university was granting a B.S. in dentistry to students with foreign language credits from undergrad studies. Does anything like that still exist at schools today?

John
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nope, not anymore.

In most foreign countries, however, dentistry is a B.S. program, its called a B.D.S., I believe. But since we can't assure the quality of these programs (and because we don't want our market to be flooded) we make foreign-trained dentists go through 2 more years of dental education if they want to legally practice in America.
 
gatorfan99 said:
nope, not anymore.

In most foreign countries, however, dentistry is a B.S. program, its called a B.D.S., I believe. But since we can't assure the quality of these programs (and because we don't want our market to be flooded) we make foreign-trained dentists go through 2 more years of dental education if they want to legally practice in America.
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The BDS, DDS, and DMD degrees are all "undergraduate" degrees and are considered equivalent to one another in the respect of the level of dental education they represent. The name of the degree is simply whatever that particular school decided to call the degree. Licensure to practice in the US though is controlled by each individual state. Some states will allow you to take your boards and state exam and practice right away, some states require 1-2 years additional general dental education, ie. a GPR or AEGD, or if you do a specialty in the US you can practice that specialty. I believe NY state will even be requiring US grads to do an extra year of GPR in order to be licensed in that state in the near future.

There is a similar requirement for US dentist who want to get a license to practice in Canada, Australia, or the UK.
 
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Dr.Millisevert said:
The BDS, DDS, and DMD degrees are all "undergraduate" degrees and are considered equivalent to one another in the respect of the level of dental education they represent.
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I assume you are refering that these 3 degrees are considered undergraduate in Australia. Because if the DDS and DMD where undergraduate degrees here in the US, then I wasted 4 years on a Biology major! :D
 
Omahahahaha said:
I assume you are refering that these 3 degrees are considered undergraduate in Australia. Because if the DDS and DMD where undergraduate degrees here in the US, then I wasted 4 years on a Biology major! :D
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4 Years as a biology student are not wasted years by any means. Any time spent in university is ?usually? ;) not wasted time. You?re investing in yourself and receiving an education.
But.. Yes, those three dental degrees are also considered undergrad degrees in the US as well.. as a matter of fact, they are undergrad or sometimes called "first professional degrees? everywhere in the world. You don?t need a degree technically to get accepted into a dental program, although most do because they need to in order to be competitive enough to get accepted. But no matter where you are in dental school.. you are an ?undergrad dental student?. These are undergrad degrees. You can then progress to a graduate degree if you wish, ie. a Masters or PhD.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
http://www.med.uwo.ca/education/

Click here and look under the college of medicine and dentistry, both are "undergrad".
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I think that the terms undergrad or postgrad is relative to an arbitrary graduation. I would guess that you can be an undergraduate dental student, meaning you have yet to receive your doctoral degree (DDS or DMD).. same goes for medicine (MD). However, it is conventional to talk about an undergradate student as someone that has yet to receive their bachelors degree (BS or BA) and a postgraduate student as someone that has completed their bachelors degree but is still being educated.

plus that website is a canadian school..so all bets are off. :thumbdown:
 
These are all American schools...

http://www.med.wayne.edu/educational_programs/undergraduate.asp


http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/cfm/education/UME.shtml

http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ugme/

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/ume/

Trust me.. the MD and DDS are all Undergrad degrees. Although they are usually not the first degree someone recieves and they may require certain prerequisite courses, which may vary depending on which med school your applying to.. Technically they do not require a Bachelor to be accepted. When you are studying medicine or dentistry, you are considered an "undergraduate".
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Trust me.. the MD and DDS are all Undergrad degrees. Although they are usually not the first degree someone recieves and they may require certain prerequisite courses, which may vary depending on which med school your applying to.. Technically they do not require a Bachelor to be accepted. When you are studying medicine or dentistry, you are considered an "undergraduate".
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You may be technically correct, but in our everyday usage of the wording, we would never claim to be undergraduate students.

Further, those sites you listed classify us as undergradute DENTAL or MEDICAL students, not just undergraduate students. We ARE undergraduate dental students because there exists the possibility of continuing our education with post-graduate specialty studies. But to say we are simply "undergraduates" is incorrect in our current verbage.

What's the point of this, anyway?
 
ItsGavinC said:
You may be technically correct, but in our everyday usage of the wording, we would never claim to be undergraduate students.

Further, those sites you listed classify us as undergradute DENTAL or MEDICAL students, not just undergraduate students. We ARE undergraduate dental students because there exists the possibility of continuing our education with post-graduate specialty studies. But to say we are simply "undergraduates" is incorrect in our current verbage.

What's the point of this, anyway?
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I'm just saying that the US and Canada may have changed the name of the degree, but Doctors from the UK are the ones who established the US medical schools in the first place. The US students may not want to call themselves undergraduates, but you are. The name may be diff, but the degree is the same. I too have received a bachelor degree in chemistry before attending dental school, but I too am still an undergraduate student (undergrad dental) receiving a Bachelor of Dentistry, which is equivalent to a DDS or DMD, which are also undergrad dental degrees.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I'm just saying that the US and Canada may have changed the name of the degree, but Doctors from the UK are the ones who established the US medical schools in the first place. The US students may not want to call themselves undergraduates, but you are. The name may be diff, but the degree is the same. I too have received a bachelor degree in chemistry before attending dental school, but I too am still an undergraduate student (undergrad dental) receiving a Bachelor of Dentistry, which is equivalent to a DDS or DMD, which are also undergrad dental degrees.
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I'm sorry Dr. Millisevert, it is my understanding that you are using getting confused by some terms. You are correct in referring to DDS/DMD/MD (and even MPH, JD, MSW, PharmD) as first professional degrees, but not correct in referring to them as "undergraduate degrees." The fact that some US schools will accept you without a BS/BA degree is not a valid way to support your agrument. First professional degrees refers to any study that is done after a baccalaureatte degree is attained (and it usually required for MPH, JD, etc). In the US, their are two forms of post-graduate (after BA/BS) study: traditional graduate school and first professional school. Traditional graduate school refers to an education (usually consisting of primary research), in which the students contributes to the ongoing research of the field. Some schools start this type of graduate study as a straight PhD program, and some ask for a MA/MS to be attained first. These students usually go on to become professors, or other members of an academic discipline, or industrial research. This is very different that a first professional degree. These degrees are usually part of a terminal education, once the degree is attained the student begins to practice their "discipline" no longer being affiliated with an academic/research institution. Some first professional degrees can lead to further degrees (MSW->DSW), but this is not required. In health fields, "dental undergrads" are referred as undergrads because they take part in "post graduate (as in post dental degree graduate" study). This does not mean that they are undegrads in the same setting as a student getting his BA/BS.
 
I just found this on my schools Career Services webpage (http://cornell.placementmanual.com/graduate/). I believe it supports my statement that their are type types of american graduate degrees.

Graduate School
If you plan to pursue a graduate research degree, such as a Ph.D. in English or physics, which emphasizes original research, discuss your educational goals with Cornell faculty, who can be a valuable resource. Their knowledge of the various schools, including reputation, faculty, research being conducted, and your chances for admission, can help guide you.

Professional School:
If you decide on a career in medicine, law, public health, or social work, for example, you will need to attend professional school, where you'll acquire knowledge and skills to meet requirements for practice in the field.
 
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Dr.Millisevert said:
but I too am still an undergraduate student (undergrad dental) receiving a Bachelor of Dentistry, which is equivalent to a DDS or DMD, which are also undergrad dental degrees.
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Right, like you said, you are an undergraduate dental student. That's different than an undergraduate student in our modern venacular.
 
edkNARF said:
I just found this on my schools Career Services webpage (http://cornell.placementmanual.com/graduate/). I believe it supports my statement that their are type types of american graduate degrees.

Graduate School
If you plan to pursue a graduate research degree, such as a Ph.D. in English or physics, which emphasizes original research, discuss your educational goals with Cornell faculty, who can be a valuable resource. Their knowledge of the various schools, including reputation, faculty, research being conducted, and your chances for admission, can help guide you.

Professional School:
If you decide on a career in medicine, law, public health, or social work, for example, you will need to attend professional school, where you'll acquire knowledge and skills to meet requirements for practice in the field.
Click to expand...
Although it may also be called a professional degree, it is an undergraduate professional degree, still not a true graduate degree.

ItsGavinC Right said:
Modern vernacular? Meaning.. Americans have in the past 70 years made themselves think it?s different. Even though we all may have previously completed Bachelors, Masters, maybe even PhDs.. (as a matter of fact I have classmate who completed medical school and part of an anesthesia residency before dropping out to enroll in dental school.)
ItsGavinC even agrees with me.. we are ?undergraduate dental students?. Maybe professional.. ie leading to a practiced profession, but yet still undergraduate.
Click to expand...
 
edkNARF said:
I just found this on my schools Career Services webpage (http://cornell.placementmanual.com/graduate/). I believe it supports my statement that their are type types of american graduate degrees.

Graduate School
If you plan to pursue a graduate research degree, such as a Ph.D. in English or physics, which emphasizes original research, discuss your educational goals with Cornell faculty, who can be a valuable resource. Their knowledge of the various schools, including reputation, faculty, research being conducted, and your chances for admission, can help guide you.

Professional School:
If you decide on a career in medicine, law, public health, or social work, for example, you will need to attend professional school, where you'll acquire knowledge and skills to meet requirements for practice in the field.
Click to expand...
I know an orthodontist in the US who did two years of science classes in university, then matriculated into a DDS program (undergraduate dentistry). Then did a 3 year (graduate degree which required graduation from an undergrad dental program) MDSc in Orthodontics in which he was required to complete research and write a thesis and I believe publish as well.
 
I don't mean to flame, but I don't really think you know what you are talking about regarding the the american educational system. I feel that you are not accepting the distinction that an undergrudate professional student is different than an undergraduate student.
 
edkNARF said:
I don't mean to flame, but I don't really think you know what you are talking about regarding the the american educational system. I feel that you are not accepting the distinction that an undergrudate professional student is different than an undergraduate student.
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Well.. for one.. I do feel I have somewhat of an idea of what I?m talking about.. sorry. Research the history regarding the formation of the American education system yourself.
Secondly, I also want to apologies for rambling on though.. but I was a bit on the defensive :mad: when I read the post below which I felt was stating that a BDS degree from the UK or Australia was a substandard level of dental education compared to the DDS/DMD? and I beg to differ.

Gatorfan99 said:
In most foreign countries, however, dentistry is a B.S. program, its called a B.D.S., I believe. But since we can't assure the quality of these programs (and because we don't want our market to be flooded) we make foreign-trained dentists go through 2 more years of dental education if they want to legally practice in America.
Click to expand...
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Well.. for one.. I do feel I have somewhat of an idea of what I?m talking about.. sorry. Research the history regarding the formation of the American education system yourself.
Secondly, I also want to apologies for rambling on though.. but I was a bit on the defensive :mad: when I read the post below which I felt was stating that a BDS degree from the UK or Australia was a substandard level of dental education compared to the DDS/DMD? and I beg to differ.
Click to expand...

I was hoping someone could clarify something for me. If the BDS and DDS/DMD are equal why do we require further training for foreign trained dentists to practice in the US? I found this on my school's site:

Program for Graduates of Foreign Dental Schools

The university offers an opportunity to earn the degree of Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) to qualified graduates of foreign dental schools. The number of positions for this program is limited and specific requirements that must be met to be eligible for consideration. The purpose of this program is to provide dentists educated in foreign dental schools the opportunity to gain clinical skills and knowledge of dentistry as it is practiced in the United States. Successful completion of this three-year program will result in meeting the educational requirements for Licensure eligibility in all states.

Does this apply to all FTD or do we consider individuals on a country by country and school by school basis?
 
mlonier said:
I was hoping someone could clarify something for me. If the BDS and DDS/DMD are equal why do we require further training for foreign trained dentists to practice in the US? I found this on my school's site:

Program for Graduates of Foreign Dental Schools

The university offers an opportunity to earn the degree of Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) to qualified graduates of foreign dental schools. The number of positions for this program is limited and specific requirements that must be met to be eligible for consideration. The purpose of this program is to provide dentists educated in foreign dental schools the opportunity to gain clinical skills and knowledge of dentistry as it is practiced in the United States. Successful completion of this three-year program will result in meeting the educational requirements for Licensure eligibility in all states.

Does this apply to all FTD or do we consider individuals on a country by country and school by school basis?
Click to expand...

The BDS is degree is equal to the DDS/DMD degrees, this is just a way for 1. The US to have better control on who they let practice there. (Australia has some similar hurdles for foreign trained dentists.. even US dentists who have a DDS have to pass extra exams and do extra training sometimes to practice in Australia!) Even for US trained dentists to practice in Canada (all Canadian schools are ADA accredited by the way) Canada requires you to take a separate exam to practice in a province.
And 2. This is a great way to make more money for the dental school..

Similarly if you were to graduate from medical school say from.. Cambridge.. you would receive a bachelor degree in medicine. But if that doctor from the UK decides he/she wanted to practice in the US, when they took their board exam and came to the US.. they would be allowed to call themselves an MD as opposed to the name of the degree they get (MB, BChir).. just so the American public would understand. Do you think a medical education from Cambridge is not as good as or lower than a medical education at a US school since you receive a bachelors in medicine degree up graduation?

http://www.medschl.cam.ac.uk/pages/bchirs1.html

The level of dental education is the same between the BDS and a DDS/DMD degrees.. It?s just a matter of the license to practice.. which in the US is controlled by each state.. as a matter of fact, there are a few states that will allow foreign dental grads to take their state licensure exam after completing the boards I and II and immediately start practicing. The requirements are different in every state.
 
Um... Who cares what you call it? You're still getting your doctorate... Which sits well with me either way! :D
 
Yeah yeah yeah... Close enough! :D
 
aphistis said:
...?

Isn't any degree that confers the title of "doctor" ipso facto a doctorate?
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I don't believe so. People who are earning doctorate degrees are earning Ph.Ds. We are earning professional degrees and will be called "doctor" by our patients. But not all those who earn professional degrees or degrees with "doctor" in the title, will even be called doctor.

Take lawyers for example. They earn a JD (which certainly has doctor in the title), but it isn't a doctorate degree, neither are they doctors.

So now we are all really confused. :D
 
And then, just to contradict myself, I've found a site that explains the doctorate degree as being either professional OR academic (in which case our dental degree IS a professional doctorate degree, but a doctorate nontheless:

"Doctoral degrees, the highest possible earned academic degree, can also be professional or academic. Professional doctoral degrees, such as the Doctor of Medicine (MD) and the Juris Doctor (JD), stress the practical application of knowledge and skills. Academic doctoral degrees, the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.), focus on advancing knowledge through original research in a given academic field. Doctorates may take three to six years to complete."

So as you can see, I have no clue what I'm speaking of.
 
If everyone on SDN started agreeing there would be complete and udder chaos in the pre-dental bulletin board world!
 
But in the fields of med, law, and dentistry.. ie the professional degrees.. the MD, JD, and DDS are not the highest degree possible in that field. A PhD would be... but in law you have your LLM.. in the UK system.. JD=LLB btw too. You can complete Masters degrees in both med and dentistry as well as PhDs. So ItsGavinC is right again! Although your patients call you doctor and you are a professional, the MD, JD, and DDS are not technically doctorate degrees.
 
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