KCUMB to offer MD,DO degree?????

Can a school just make up a new degree title?

Be careful what you read on Wikipedia. There's lots of stuff written there that can't be verified and may, in fact, be completely false.

I cannot confirm or deny it, and I haven't heard anything about such a preposterous thing from the administration or from any other sources. This is the first time I've heard of it. *shrug*

I do know there are preliminary plans on opening up a new school in conjunction with Missouri Southern State University. I don't know what the progress on that is.

Is KCUMB promoting it on their own website? If not, than I'm sure it is a false claim on wikipedia.

I am a student at KCUMB, and I have not heard anything about a dual MD/DO degree. I really don't see the point in creating that degree since DO physicians have all of the same rights as an MD and can practice just as an MD, although I think Michigan is great for having both programs at the same institution. I realize that some locations in the country may not have the same respect for or understand the DO degree fully, but we do still have the ability to practice in any field we choose. It just may be harder to be accepted in certain places, which I beleive is wrong.

I can confirm that we have been notified that the school is currently seeking the rights to open a campus in southern MO.

MedStudentWanna said:

I'm not saying it's true, but if the first class to be affected is the one that enters in the Fall of 2013, so the Class of 2017, I doubt current students would be alerted.

I'm still skeptical. I just don't think that current students not knowing means much. I also don't know why anyone would bother to make up something like that and include it in an otherwise accurate and nice article about the school.

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Wouldn't class of 2013 be the year of graduation?? I've never heard of calling a class, a class by the year they enter school. Pointless discussion though ... it's not true.

Rumors about this sort of thing are nothing new. Supposedly, TCOM did a study to figure out the affects of offering an MD,Do degree according to the DO Reform Group.

It's wise if you think about it. A lot of MD applicants would apply DO because they want to learn OMM, but they don't because they want the marketability of the MD degree. If KCUMB does this, they'll be inundated with applications I bet.

I doubt there is that much interest in OMM among pre-meds.

If this were true the students at KCUMB would probably be the last to know. Somehow i doubt the accuracy of this unless the school would make more money off of it.

They'd probably get more applicants and probably attract students that would up the stats. What's the average MCAT/GPA stats now?

Something tells me DO schools don't really care about raising their stats...

ensuii said:

Something tells me DO schools don't really care about raising their stats...

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Oh? What gives you that impression?

Well, there are a lot of them that are for-profit schools meaning that it behooves them to admit as many students as they can given their resources. Since most schools have an applicant to accepted ratio of at least 10:1, they aren't struggling to fill their seats. What's the point of having higher stats? I don't really think any of them care...especially since there's not a huge research incentive.

ensuii said:

Well, there are a lot of them that are for-profit schools meaning that it behooves them to admit as many students as they can given their resources. Since most schools have an applicant to accepted ratio of at least 10:1, they aren't struggling to fill their seats. What's the point of having higher stats? I don't really think any of them care...especially since there's not a huge research incentive.

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I see what you mean. I do agree that a lot schools do seem to be very money hungry and almost contrary to their "not-for-profit" status. And then there are the for-profit ones appearing. Well, while I don't like the idea of for-profit schools, at least they are being honest. Ha.

The reason I question your comment is that I recall at least one lecture given by a dean of a highly-reputable DO school citing the necessity of higher stats, especially given the increased competition. And guess what? Numbers ARE increasing and have been for a while.

spicedmanna said:

I see what you mean. I do agree that a lot schools do seem to be very money hungry and almost contrary to their "not-for-profit" status. And then there are the for-profit ones appearing. Well, while I don't like the idea of for-profit schools, at least they are being honest. Ha.

The reason I question your comment is that I recall at least one lecture given by a dean of a highly-reputable DO school citing the necessity of higher stats, especially given the increased competition. And guess what? Numbers ARE increasing and have been for a while.

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Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass...I app'd DO but ended up going to an expensive private MD. I just think that the reason why the stats are going up are because the degree is being seen as more and viable by applicants that are in the grey area for getting in somewhere and not necessarily because of anything DO schools are doing specifically. But it doesn't really matter why they're going up...DOs are in such a sweet position now with their insane growth and having DO residencies.

facetguy said:

I doubt there is that much interest in OMM among pre-meds.

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The lack of interest in OMM among pre-meds and medical students is only exceeded by that in practicing DOs.

so true old_mil
lol!!

MedStudentWanna said:

Only ONE DO school is for-profit. All the others are non-profit including KCUMB.

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My mistake...out of curiosity, which one is for profit?

ensuii said:

Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass....

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Yeeaahhh I dunno. Only RVU is for profit, and it caused a huge stink in the community.


This thread means nothing with verification from wikipedia and no where else.

Old_Mil said:

The lack of interest in OMM among pre-meds and medical students is only exceeded by that in practicing DOs.

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... pre-med ... extremely interested in OMM. Just for the record.

MedStudentWanna said:

Yeah same here. I know several pre meds who are interested in OMM.

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Just wait until you start actually learning about it - that's when most most people change their tune...especially when you get to myofascial and cranial.

Boner said:

Just wait until you start actually learning about it - that's when most most people change their tune...especially when you get to myofascial and cranial.

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concur

MedStudentWanna said:

Yeah same here. I know several pre meds who are interested in OMM.

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Here's one who isn't!

I am a student at KCUMB and I have heard the rumors as well. I can say with all certainty that this is more than just a rumor. Admin at KCUMB are actively investigating this and if they can pull it off, all incoming KCUMB students will graduate with both a MD and DO, probably starting in the next two years. However, it could fall through. It is much more than a rumor, but it's possible nothing comes of it.

Alpha Block said:

I am a student at KCUMB and I have heard the rumors as well. I can say with all certainty that this is more than just a rumor. Admin at KCUMB are actively investigating this and if they can pull it off, all incoming KCUMB students will graduate with both a MD and DO, probably starting in the next two years. However, it could fall through. It is much more than a rumor, but it's possible nothing comes of it.

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Hmm interesting to say the least. If this goes through others will surely follow.

To do this they would have to be LCME accredited and COCA accredited. Highly doubt that'll happen. They would have to get rid of OMM to get LCME and keep OMM to have COCA.

Alpha Block said:

I am a student at KCUMB and I have heard the rumors as well. I can say with all certainty that this is more than just a rumor. Admin at KCUMB are actively investigating this and if they can pull it off, all incoming KCUMB students will graduate with both a MD and DO, probably starting in the next two years. However, it could fall through. It is much more than a rumor, but it's possible nothing comes of it.

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When you say starting in the next two years, do you mean the classes that would start in the next two years would graduate with that? I'm applying for the class of 2014. If the MD,DO degree starts with the class of 2015, would that mean the class of 2014 would get just a DO or could it be retroactively applied? Any thoughts?

futIDdoc said:

To do this they would have to be LCME accredited and COCA accredited. Highly doubt that'll happen. They would have to get rid of OMM to get LCME and keep OMM to have COCA.

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The LCME did a site visit of DMU within the past two years. It was kept pretty hush-hush, and nobody really knows why they were doing a full site inspection.

Hmm...if the more well known DO schools get LCME accredited, I wonder what would happen to those DO schools that cannot get accreditation because of their setup (RVU) or just can't pass inspection (not gonna name names...but we can all think of some candidates). It would really create a have and have-not situation.

Are they actually going to modify the curriculum when including this MD? It would seem like they'd have to retroactively give everybody whos graduated an MD if everything remains the same.

Still seems rather pointless though. Give a DO, an MD, MDO, DOM, whatever just pick one. Two degrees without actually studying for two separate degrees is kinda mis-represesntative isn't it? Unless this is all some big plan to look even more like AT Still. Next we'll all have to grow ridiculously long beards.

futIDdoc said:

To do this they would have to be LCME accredited and COCA accredited. Highly doubt that'll happen. They would have to get rid of OMM to get LCME and keep OMM to have COCA.

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Why do they have to get rid of OMM to get LCME accreditation? OMM isn't required to get an MD, but surely if someone studies OMM, they aren't excluded from receiving an MD.

...

engineeredout said:

It would seem like they'd have to retroactively give everybody whos graduated an MD if everything remains the same.

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Yup. The second it happened, people from the class directly before the change would demand to have the retroactive MD,DO, leading to a chain reaction. All I can say is that they had a meeting about this at TCOM and it seemed to meet resistance all over the place and fall apart.

Also, I have heard people argue that you wouldn't need LCME accreditation (I can't explain this, but I've read it in arguments) and there wouldn't need to be anything added to the education to make it MD, DO. It would just be getting a medical degree + extra training in OMM ... the exact way it is now, just recognized differently. Again though, I don't think the AOA would support something like this ... hence, I don't think it will happen.

JaggerPlate said:

... pre-med ... extremely interested in OMM. Just for the record.

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You'll either get over it or end up as that lone hippie FP who hands out medical MJ to all his chronic pain patients and wears beads and burlap to bicycle to work...

Old_Mil said:

You'll either get over it or end up as that lone hippie FP who hands out medical MJ to all his chronic pain patients and wears beads and burlap to bicycle to work...

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I know those MJ dealer 'doctors' are setting up practices all over my state. Had friends who have gone to them ... they literally just charge you $100+ to sit down and say you have a medical issue (which are listed nicely on their website), then they write you a license or script or whatever for a year, and you're on your way. People I know who went said the office was packed and these are probably the same guys who run the dispensory places. Seem like smart docs that are sick of the BS and have the morals of alley cats ... not so much hippies.

I'm just going into it with an open mind. It seems interesting, don't think that makes me a hippy or a weed dealer.

engineeredout said:

Are they actually going to modify the curriculum when including this MD? It would seem like they'd have to retroactively give everybody whos graduated an MD if everything remains the same.

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Says who? They conferred older classes the degree they were accredited to confer when the degree was earned.

engineeredout said:

Still seems rather pointless though. Give a DO, an MD, MDO, DOM, whatever just pick one. Two degrees without actually studying for two separate degrees is kinda mis-represesntative isn't it? Unless this is all some big plan to look even more like AT Still. Next we'll all have to grow ridiculously long beards.

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I also think the whole thing is kind of pointless. For people that aren't OK with being a DO, do something else. Otherwise, who cares? To me its almost like DNPs wanting to backdoor their way into being "doctors". But instead, its MD wannabes trying to backdoor their way into being a MD.

IDBasco said:

Says who? They conferred older classes the degree they were accredited to confer when the degree was earned.

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It would take a lawyer representing alumni in a class action lawsuit about 90 seconds to rip that argument to shreds. IE: The older classes completed the same coursework, rotations, etc, could sit for USMLE boards ... bam, done.

JaggerPlate said:

It would take a lawyer representing alumni in a class action lawsuit about 90 seconds to rip that argument to shreds. IE: The older classes completed the same coursework, rotations, etc, could sit for USMLE boards ... bam, done.

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Yes I think you're right. When some people have a MD, DO and others have just DO from the same school, the perception is that the MD, DO folks have a broader education.

I think an MD, DO degree is a great idea but that's just me.

JaggerPlate said:

It would take a lawyer representing alumni in a class action lawsuit about 90 seconds to rip that argument to shreds. IE: The older classes completed the same coursework, rotations, etc, could sit for USMLE boards ... bam, done.

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Didn't know you were an expert in law. Maybe you could cite precedent that would lead you to this conclusion?

IDBasco said:

Didn't know you were an expert in law.

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You learn something every day.

IDBasco said:

Maybe you could cite precedent that would lead you to this conclusion?

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Do you really not see any legal logic in what I'm saying?? I'm sure I could spend a few hours slumming around the internet and find various cases where this has happened, but I don't want to. I mean, if I said something that is totally outrageous from a legal standpoint, then okay ... maybe I'm wrong, but a. I really think it wouldn't be hard to find a precedent and b. I don't think my statement was absurd.

Just Joshin said:

Yes I think you're right. When some people have a MD, DO and others have just DO from the same school, the perception is that the MD, DO folks have a broader education.

I think an MD, DO degree is a great idea but that's just me.

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All I'm saying is this:

-Right now, an education from KCUMB is an MD education with additional training in OMM. Otherwise, why would DOs be able to sit for boards and complete ACGME residencies right alongside MDs?
-This means that to award an MD, DO degree ... the curriculum does NOT need to be tweaked
-You're also right, MD, DO makes straight up DO seem less, or like something is missing
-However, since the education is the same and people who worked just as hard at KCUMB aren't going to want to feel cheated, they will want to use the MD, DO.

That's my logic ... and I really think a class action lawsuit would arise and win quickly.

Just Joshin said:

When you say starting in the next two years, do you mean the classes that would start in the next two years would graduate with that? I'm applying for the class of 2014. If the MD,DO degree starts with the class of 2015, would that mean the class of 2014 would get just a DO or could it be retroactively applied? Any thoughts?

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Joshin, I don't think that it will be retroactive. And I think all applicants will know what they're getting before they start KCUMB.

JaggerPlate said:

All I'm saying is this:

-Right now, an education from KCUMB is an MD education with additional training in OMM. Otherwise, why would DOs be able to sit for boards and complete ACGME residencies right alongside MDs?
-This means that to award an MD, DO degree ... the curriculum does NOT need to be tweaked
-You're also right, MD, DO makes straight up DO seem less, or like something is missing
-However, since the education is the same and people who worked just as hard at KCUMB aren't going to want to feel cheated, they will want to use the MD, DO.

That's my logic ... and I really think a class action lawsuit would arise and win quickly.

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I think KCUMB will need to add a more rigorous biochemistry curriculum.

I'm just going into it with an open mind. It seems interesting, don't think that makes me a hippy or a weed dealer.

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Hey Jagger, it's been awhile. After a year at CCOM, your appreciation for OMM probably also depends on the amount of time they force you to practice it. For about the first half of the year, I was furious about OMM because I couldn't feel a thing the professors were talking about (and even now, students still frequently get furious because professors will disagree over diagnosis often and on practicals).

However, eventually I and the rest of my classemates began to learn what they were talking about. There was some moment my first year where I just happened to be practicing an HVLA technique and POP--it worked perfectly. After that I wanted to do that technique on anyone I could find. Then I learned another technique well. And another.

It's not something I ever plan on using on patients..but it is somethign cool to show my friends and family--thanks to 4 hours a week practically every week. I appreciate soft tissue, muscle energy, and HVLA (high velocity low amplitude)...I've yet to be convinced on myofascial release or indirect techniques (mostly due to lack of exposure), and with the rest of the crowd, I think cranial is total bullcrap.

Tangent over. Glad you're going in with an open mind. You'll get more out of it and enjoy it more that way.