Why are DO schools more lenient on GPA/MCATs?

And I Was Like said:

I have to disagree here - I'll number the arguments correlating with each of your points.

1) I want to see stats showing a good portion of MD students don't like the material. If you hate the material don't go to medical school - there are better careers if you just want money, it's called business, and you can have an entire political party willing to do anything you say so you can make a buck.

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Sorry if I worded it in a weird way - DocEspana got my intention. What I meant was that these people are skilled test takers, and their interest in the material really doesn't matter. It's not a judgment: this group includes people who are psyched to be doctors for the sake of being doctors, and it also includes people who don't care for medicine beyond having a lifestyle specialty that brings in money and prestige.

And I Was Like said:

2) I need stats here to show a majority of these kids go DO. I personally hated the Verbal section and had zero interest in it. I also hated the biology section of the MCAT cause I don't like plants. I scored 10+ on both these sections because I studied them. I'm certain not everyone who gets 10+ on the Physical science section is a physics/inorganic chemistry fanboy/fangirl.

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It's all theoretical, so we can't have any real statistics on it. However, it makes sense, in my mind. These people will likely perform somewhere around average on the MCAT - say, 27 to 33 (maybe slightly better, maybe slightly worse) - and their GPA will follow the same trend (say, 3.3 to 3.6). As schools become more competitive and the average scores of accepted applicants increases, these people will have a harder time entering allopathic programs, and will likely shift toward osteopathic programs.

And I Was Like said:

3) I also don't believe this, people with poor test-taking schools often realize this and study significantly harder. This is the real problem, you can get the grades/mcat if you study hard enough. It's not a "I'm not smart enough" question it's a "Am I willing to work hard, very hard, for it."

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To a certain extent, this is true. I'd group those types of people into group 2, though. Perhaps for group 2, claiming that it's purely based on interest is too simple - it should be based on motivation. The people you describe are motivated to work harder and perform better; being interested in what you're studying is also a form of motivation, after all.

However, for this group I'm thinking of the types of people who can study all they like and still won't perform well. As an anecdotal example, I knew of one guy working through his PhD. His undergrad GPA was decent - I think it was a 3.6 - but the first time he took the MCAT, he scored a 19. When I met him, he was taking it seriously: he went through his MCAT books three times, taking really detailed notes as he did so, and did a bunch of practice problems. It was the most impressive MCAT study effort that I've ever seen. He took the test, and scored in the low 20's. He wasn't an idiot - just talking to him, you could tell that he knew his stuff. I can only conclude that he was a really poor test-taker.

DocEspana said:

There are two or three huge variables here that you cant overlook though: The USMLE is the only saving grace for these students so they are well known for scoring better than expected (still not quite reaching the 220 average, but with a definite positive skew with many many high scoring outliers). also many/most/all (depends on who your asking) schools will either filter the students and not allow a certain percentage to ever take the USMLE or will decellerate them into extra years of pre-clinical education so that the only people taking the USMLE are the ones hand-picked to pass it.

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You raise some good points, thanks for mentioning them.

Dr Yiot said:

hmm interesting, but at the same time I still don't know if I believe it. Just because of personal experience. I work for a primary care doc(DO) who scored a 24 on the mcat. She ended up destroying the USMLE. She really wanted to be a FP and had offers at many programs accros the US(she mentioned UCLA etc etc). she was also top of her class in med school where she went(NYCOM). Extremely bright and excellent physician. Thats why im a little hesitant.

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Use anecdotal information (n= 1) or data (n= 30,000). Your choice. I choose data.

also it states that there is a higher correlation of graduating in 5 yrs. with scores bw a 24 and 25? I don't know if I buy that either just because if this is true then why would schools even consider accepting applicants with those scores or lower? why would they "risk" accepting a student knowing they have a higher chance of failing out? every student they accept is an investment i don't understand why they would do that.

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What I wrote was: The 5-year graduation rate is high and flat for MCATS between 24 and 45.

Frankly, I would have a very hard time admitting anyone with a MCAT of < 24 for the reason you describe. In fact, because the 4-year graduation rate curve flattens out at 26, that's where I generally draw the line.

LizzyM said:

Use anecdotal information (n= 1) or data (n= 30,000). Your choice. I choose data.



What I wrote was: The 5-year graduation rate is high and flat for MCATS between 24 and 45.

Frankly, I would have a very hard time admitting anyone with a MCAT of < 24 for the reason you describe. In fact, because the 4-year graduation rate curve flattens out at 26, that's where I generally draw the line.

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so your saying the lowest score youll accept is a 26? but thats the average for matriculants to DO programs AND there some people at MD programs with that score. granted the rest of their application is pristine but still.

Dr Yiot said:

so your saying the lowest score youll accept is a 26? but thats the average for matriculants to DO programs AND there some people at MD programs with that score. granted the rest of their application is pristine but still.

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While I don't pretend to be LizzyM's biographer, AFAIK she's at a top 20 MD school. But the truth is, most MD schools even the lowest tier won't take a kid with under a 26 without something else amazing in their file.

DO schools are MD schools have a very significant different in admission standards with over .2 gpa difference (Including the grade replacement) and over 4 points MCAT difference.

MD:

Average MCAT: 31.1

Average GPA:
3.61 Science
3.75 Non-Science
3.67 Mean

https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17-facts2010mcatgpa99-10-web.pdf.pdf

DO:

Average MCAT: 26.5 (I rounded up)

Average GPA:
3.57 Non-science
3.36 Science
3.47 Mean

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2012cib/2012cib-whole.pdf


This is a gigantic difference if you ask me.

And I Was Like said:

While I don't pretend to be LizzyM's biographer, AFAIK she's at a top 20 MD school. But the truth is, most MD schools even the lowest tier won't take a kid with under a 26 without something else amazing in their file.

DO schools are MD schools have a very significant different in admission standards with over .2 gpa difference (Including the grade replacement) and over 4 points MCAT difference.

MD:

Average MCAT: 31.1

Average GPA:
3.61 Science
3.75 Non-Science
3.67 Mean

https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17-facts2010mcatgpa99-10-web.pdf.pdf

DO:

Average MCAT: 26.5 (I rounded up)

Average GPA:
3.57 Non-science
3.36 Science
3.47 Mean

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2012cib/2012cib-whole.pdf


This is a gigantic difference if you ask me.

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Pretty much, the gap between the average DO school and the average MD school is still pretty big. However, it should be noted, that the top tier DO schools have slowly become just as competitive as pretty much low tier MD schools with competitive applicants being around 3.6/28. Either way, I would avoid using means here as they can be skewed and stick to medians.

serenade said:

Pretty much, the gap between the average DO school and the average MD school is still pretty big. However, it should be noted, that the top tier DO schools have slowly become just as competitive as pretty much low tier MD schools with competitive applicants being around 3.6/28. Either way, I would avoid using means here as they can be skewed and stick to medians.

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But that doesn't include the grade replacement which is a fairly big source of inflation. If you take the grade replacement DO schools do into account the gap between those numbers becomes even larger.

n = 1 but a girlfriend of mine retook 2 courses and got her GPA to go up .15. The grade replacement is actually a pretty big thing...

And I Was Like said:

But that doesn't include the grade replacement which is a fairly big source of inflation. If you take the grade replacement DO schools do into account the gap between those numbers becomes even larger.

n = 1 but a girlfriend of mine retook 2 courses and got her GPA to go up .15. The grade replacement is actually a pretty big thing...

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I don't think many people truly retake that many classes, likewise I don't think that many people really have that many F's or D's on their college transcript for such a drastic effect. So while there might be a visible effect, I think it could potentially be negligible in the large scale of things.

serenade said:

I don't think many people truly retake that many classes, likewise I don't think that many people really have that many F's or D's on their college transcript for such a drastic effect. So while there might be a visible effect, I think it could potentially be negligible in the large scale of things.

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Unfortunately, AACOMAS won't release such information for whatever reason. So this is all purely speculative, but I would suspect a good portion of people have at least one retake- not saying it's an D to an A (like my friends) but still.

And I Was Like said:

Unfortunately, AACOMAS won't release such information for whatever reason. So this is all purely speculative, but I would suspect a good portion of people have at least one retake- not saying it's an D to an A (like my friends) but still.

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Well, on this site a poll was conducted and we saw that on average people did 0-2 retakes. However, since SDN is a convoluted plane outside of our regular dimension I would assume that the number would be at most 1. But, there truly is no real evidence on this matter, so it is truly all speculation.

And I Was Like said:

"People who are very skilled test-takers, who may or may not really care for the material that they're learning. "

No where Velocity's statement did he make such a claim that interest is irrelevant, in fact quite the opposite. Reading comprehension is also tested on the MCAT, btw.

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Reading comprehension is very important. You made the same oversight twice here. The phrase "may or may not" does mean that they may absolutely love the material. People frequently ignore the first "may" and assume it only applies to the negative possibility. But the simple fact is that it was that said the amount they like it (or dislike it) is irrelevant, its the test taking accumen that sets them apart. Its an absent-minded error. No harm, no foul. Just trying to defend what Velocity was clearly saying frm an accidental mis-read.

I disagree, everyone here assumes MD schools are brutal tyrants with no hearts. This is simply false. There is a clear link between the MCAT and USMLE as LizzyM post, hence why MD schools are little more strict. But that's not to say they don't accept people with lower MCAT scores.

Truth of the matter, the universe is not against DO students. There are plenty of MD students who got poor grades or a poor MCAT score but they alleviated this by SMP, course retakes, MCAT retakes. Also remember course retakes for MD schools don't do grade replacement.

Also, there is no such thing as "common sense" everyone comes from different backgrounds therefore they're ideas of what the societal norms are is varied. Ask a philosophy professor, they literally laugh at the mere notion of "common sense".

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Cant disagree there. Historically I'm the person who is always telling pre-meds to STFU and stop making being a DO into some "everyone is against me, MDs are a bunch of shut-ins and social outcasts, and DO will lead me to a more balanced life" nonsense. Its all nonsense and pointless discrimination to make everyone feel better about where they are. So yea. I totally agree with what you said on that. Though, i still feel that it is a very logical progression that DO schools clearly take more people with lower scores of some sort, though they rarely take universally weaker students. We know that for many/most people motivation does drive performance. We know that selective performance leads to inconsistancies in scoring where one portion of your CV is weaker than the rest. A->B, B->C; A->C: Osteopathic schools take more students with this sort of mentality that lends itself towards a selective weakness isolated from their MCAT (or a low MCAT isolated from their strong GPA).

DocEspana said:

Reading comprehension is very important. You made the same oversight twice here. The phrase "may or may not" does mean that they may absolutely love the material. People frequently ignore the first "may" and assume it only applies to the negative possibility. But the simple fact is that it was that said the amount they like it (or dislike it) is irrelevant, its the test taking accumen that sets them apart. Its an absent-minded error. No harm, no foul. Just trying to defend what Velocity was clearly saying frm an accidental mis-read.

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See, I don't think the statement was intended as you've described. If you were to reread his post without "or may not" in it, the post doesn't flow and simply doesn't make sense. A vast majority of the time when people write may or may not they really mean one or the other. Anyway back on topic...

Regardless, the point of my statements was exactly what you made in the second half of your post. MDs and MD students are not heartless, we have social skills, many of us have husbands/wives/partners.

The only thing I feel DO schools look at that MD schools don't is if they shadowed a DO/"devotion" to "osteopathic medicine" (as if it's any different...) and they're just simply more willing to take students with lower stats.

And I Was Like said:

See, I don't think the statement was intended as you've described. If you were to reread his post without "or may not" in it, the post doesn't flow and simply doesn't make sense. A vast majority of the time when people write may or may not they really mean one or the other. Anyway back on topic...

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but its simply *not* what the phrase means, no matter how many people incorrectly use it that way. Its the same thing as the phrase "I could care less" which.... is the opposite of what they actually mean, but somewhere along the line people stopped saying "I *couldn't* care less." and people (not you, but people) will argue that the recent rash of incorrect usage is more important than the actual meaning of the words/phrase used.

I'm being a pain in the ass cause i'm a word nazi. I cant stop myself. I should clearly just shut up and be happy

Regardless, the point of my statements was exactly what you made in the second half of your post. MDs and MD students are not heartless, we have social skills, many of us have husbands/wives/partners.

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Just checking. You're agreeing with me... not saying that I gave an example of the bias. Right? Cause I agree if we're agreeing that other people are ridiculous who say those things; but you've completely lost me if you think I earlier implied MDs are any of those things. I personally dont think DO schools look for anything that MD schools dont. Including devotion to the creed (its just ever so slightly different creed). I just think DOs let in less qualified people, solely from a GPA, ECs and MCAT point of view, for a whole mess of different reasons primarily due to demographics, name value, and due dates being later in the year.

And I Was Like said:

See, I don't think the statement was intended as you've described. If you were to reread his post without "or may not" in it, the post doesn't flow and simply doesn't make sense. A vast majority of the time when people write may or may not they really mean one or the other. Anyway back on topic...

Regardless, the point of my statements was exactly what you made in the second half of your post. MDs and MD students are not heartless, we have social skills, many of us have husbands/wives/partners.

The only thing I feel DO schools look at that MD schools don't is if they shadowed a DO/"devotion" to "osteopathic medicine" (as if it's any different...) and they're just simply more willing to take students with lower stats.

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I dont know if they are "more willing" to take lower stats. they just look at all different circumstances. you worked two jobs through undergrad and only pulled a 3.4 vs your friend who pulled a 3.6. or you couldnt stop working to take the mcat so you had to work two jobs over the summer while studying for the mcat. or you were a nontrad who had a good gpa but decided to apply to med school, took the mcat after 10+ years of bieng out of school and taking the pre reqs and got the best score you could. or you sat for the mcat after you submitted your apps and something tragic happened a week before so you didnt do as well as you would have liked. or you got a 26 but guess what, you didnt have the money to retake because you just spent 600 bucks just on primaries. there are a million things that these schools consider. its not because they are settling on lower standards its that they also care and i believe place more emphasis on life experiences and extracurriculars than MD schools. other than that I agree with you on everything. that gap is large, but is closing. just think of all the amazing osteopathic physicians out there that otherwise would have never became physicians unless they looked at other aspects of their application.

your right though, md students arent heartless antisocial mutants as a matter of fact im like that and im not pre allo, im pre DO.

DocEspana said:

but its simply *not* what the phrase means, no matter how many people incorrectly use it that way. Its the same thing as the phrase "I could care less" which.... is the opposite of what they actually mean, but somewhere along the line people stopped saying "I *couldn't* care less." and people (not you, but people) will argue that the recent rash of incorrect usage is more important than the actual meaning of the words/phrase used.

I'm being a pain in the ass cause i'm a word nazi. I cant stop myself. I should clearly just shut up and be happy



Just checking. You're agreeing with me... not saying that I gave an example of the bias. Right? Cause I agree if we're agreeing that other people are ridiculous who say those things; but you've completely lost me if you think I earlier implied MDs are any of those things. I personally dont think DO schools look for anything that MD schools dont. Including devotion to the creed (its just ever so slightly different creed). I just think DOs let in less qualified people, solely from a GPA, ECs and MCAT point of view, for a whole mess of different reasons primarily due to demographics, name value, and due dates being later in the year.

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Yes, I'm agreeing with you. I just can't stand when I hear "DO schools look at the whole applicant", what do MD schools do then? It's a bit of double talk I see from people here... some DO students saying the "philosophy" says this and that which is why DOs are better, or DO schools accept more "well-rounded" applicants, then moaning about every possible thing that isn't super lovey-dovey towards DO schools.

Look at my posts earlier in the thread, I was attacked despite the fact I'm probably the strongest pro-DO advocate you'll meet. I just don't like any misinformation from DOs or MDs.

/rant

DocEspana said:

but its simply *not* what the phrase means, no matter how many people incorrectly use it that way. Its the same thing as the phrase "I could care less" which.... is the opposite of what they actually mean, but somewhere along the line people stopped saying "I *couldn't* care less." and people (not you, but people) will argue that the recent rash of incorrect usage is more important than the actual meaning of the words/phrase used.

I'm being a pain in the ass cause i'm a word nazi. I cant stop myself. I should clearly just shut up and be happy



Just checking. You're agreeing with me... not saying that I gave an example of the bias. Right? Cause I agree if we're agreeing that other people are ridiculous who say those things; but you've completely lost me if you think I earlier implied MDs are any of those things. I personally dont think DO schools look for anything that MD schools dont. Including devotion to the creed (its just ever so slightly different creed). I just think DOs let in less qualified people, solely from a GPA, ECs and MCAT point of view, for a whole mess of different reasons primarily due to demographics, name value, and due dates being later in the year.

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yup and name value too. the whole stigma thing has some pre meds frazzeled

And I Was Like said:

Yes, I'm agreeing with you. I just can't stand when I hear "DO schools look at the whole applicant", what do MD schools do then? It's a bit of double talk I see from people here... some DO students saying the "philosophy" says this and that which is why DOs are better, or DO schools accept more "well-rounded" applicants, then moaning about every possible thing that isn't super lovey-dovey towards DO schools.

Look at my posts earlier in the thread, I was attacked despite the fact I'm probably the strongest pro-DO advocate you'll meet. I just don't like any misinformation from DOs or MDs.

/rant

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ill agree with this too. i just think that there accepting less stellar applicants because hey he was a army medica for eight years but will probably make a great doctor even with his 24 on the mcat. and hey he has a 3.8 so he should be fine.

where as md schools i think would want the 30+ mcat and 3.8 and would also want the medic that served for 8 years i just think DO schools are more lenient to the people having great extracurriculars but might be lacking in numerical aspects where as md programs are not.

I think its worth noting that the MD schools get the first crack, chronologically. So they *can* get the all star with everything going for him. They get the 8 year army medic with the 32 MCAT. DO schools get the 8 year army medic with the 28 mcat. Its simply chronologic opportunity difference. Its not a "want" of the DO schools, they simply want the best of whoever isnt already enrolled elsewhere. MD schools pick first and DO schools find the qualified ones among who is left and/or who drinks the DO Kool-Aid

Dr Yiot said:

yup and name value too. the whole stigma thing has some pre meds frazzeled

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I mean you cant really blame premeds for this IMO. Most premeds are hard (academic) workers and havent really accomplished anything real world outside of academics. They are constantly worried about what others (other premeds/professors) think about them. Furthermore most premeds are young. Young people tend to care more about what others think about them. I remember being 21/22 and really giving a crap about what my peers thought about me/my car/the girls I hooked up with and how hot they were etc. It just comes with the territory. Fast forward 7 or 8 years..and that trivial stuff doesnt seem to matter as much.

Not to mention parental influences on these young premeds (as evidenced by the hundreds of "my parents think" threads on this site.

DocEspana said:

I think its worth noting that the MD schools get the first crack, chronologically. So they *can* get the all star with everything going for him. They get the 8 year army medic with the 32 MCAT. DO schools get the 8 year army medic with the 28 mcat. Its simply chronologic opportunity difference. Its not a "want" of the DO schools, they simply want the best of whoever isnt already enrolled elsewhere. MD schools pick first and DO schools find the qualified ones among who is left and/or who drinks the DO Kool-Aid

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I think there is some truth in what you say, but I doubt that's the entire picture. DO schools get about 4k applicants. If they wanted numbers alone, they could probably do that. Instead, they want applicants that fit their philosophy. If you look at the Caribbean numbers, many of them could be DO by numbers alone but haven't proven themselves to be accepted.

DocEspana said:

I think its worth noting that the MD schools get the first crack, chronologically. So they *can* get the all star with everything going for him. They get the 8 year army medic with the 32 MCAT. DO schools get the 8 year army medic with the 28 mcat. Its simply chronologic opportunity difference. Its not a "want" of the DO schools, they simply want the best of whoever isnt already enrolled elsewhere. MD schools pick first and DO schools find the qualified ones among who is left and/or who drinks the DO Kool-Aid

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How does this happens? do md schools begin interviews earlier? i know DO schools interview longer and much later. this is my first guess is there anything else as to why MD schools would get the first pick in the litter?

willen101383 said:

I mean you cant really blame premeds for this IMO. Most premeds are hard (academic) workers and havent really accomplished anything real world outside of academics. They are constantly worried about what others (other premeds/professors) think about them. Furthermore most premeds are young. Young people tend to care more about what others think about them. I remember being 21/22 and really giving a crap about what my peers thought about me/my car/the girls I hooked up with and how hot they were etc. It just comes with the territory. Fast forward 7 or 8 years..and that trivial stuff doesnt seem to matter as much.

Not to mention parental influences on these young premeds (as evidenced by the hundreds of "my parents think" threads on this site.

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agree totally

Dr Yiot said:

ill agree with this too. i just think that there accepting less stellar applicants because hey he was a army medica for eight years but will probably make a great doctor even with his 24 on the mcat. and hey he has a 3.8 so he should be fine.

where as md schools i think would want the 30+ mcat and 3.8 and would also want the medic that served for 8 years i just think DO schools are more lenient to the people having great extracurriculars but might be lacking in numerical aspects where as md programs are not.

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Yup. Any way you slice it DO programs are willing to put aside some numbers for some cool life experiences. Not to pat my own back but I will use myself as an example. I sucked ass in undergrad. I was immature, not really driven and was way more worried about cars, girls, and partying. Took a year off and got my **** together maturity wise (not to mention freaked out bc I wasnt going to be stuck being a clinical lab technologist forever and there isnt much you can do with a straight bio degree). Went to grad school and smoked the **** out of my masters while working full time as a blood bank technologist. Took the MCAT once and got a 27 and got tons of love from DO schools. Never applied to a single MD because I knew that my 2.45 undergrad was really going to hold me back (not to mention I bought a house and knew Penn/Temple/Jeff wouldnt even accept me and I wasnt going to move for that MD) But those u grad grades never even came up once in an interview. They were far more interested in the fact that I actually had a good career going for myself and was working full time for 5 years in a clinical field. I really dont know that any MD school would have cared more about that dedication to my career vs my undergrad GPA.

Oh and since this was mentioned above, I never had a single retake...and honestly of my core group of friends at school I dont know a single person who did either. I think the potential "GPA boost" from this ability is greatly inflated..especially at the better known schools.

TriagePreMed said:

I think there is some truth in what you say, but I doubt that's the entire picture. DO schools get about 4k applicants. If they wanted numbers alone, they could probably do that. Instead, they want applicants that fit their philosophy. If you look at the Caribbean numbers, many of them could be DO by numbers alone but haven't proven themselves to be accepted.

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well that sounds good too. now im confused. but i agree i think with such high volume of applicants that they could essentially fill their quota very well. like a buddy of mine with a 4.0 and 30+ mcat who was straight up rejected post interview from a very well known DO school

Dr Yiot said:

I dont know if they are "more willing" to take lower stats. they just look at all different circumstances. you worked two jobs through undergrad and only pulled a 3.4 vs your friend who pulled a 3.6. or you couldnt stop working to take the mcat so you had to work two jobs over the summer while studying for the mcat. or you were a nontrad who had a good gpa but decided to apply to med school, took the mcat after 10+ years of bieng out of school and taking the pre reqs and got the best score you could. or you sat for the mcat after you submitted your apps and something tragic happened a week before so you didnt do as well as you would have liked. or you got a 26 but guess what, you didnt have the money to retake because you just spent 600 bucks just on primaries. there are a million things that these schools consider. its not because they are settling on lower standards its that they also care and i believe place more emphasis on life experiences and extracurriculars than MD schools. other than that I agree with you on everything. that gap is large, but is closing. just think of all the amazing osteopathic physicians out there that otherwise would have never became physicians unless they looked at other aspects of their application.

your right though, md students arent heartless antisocial mutants as a matter of fact im like that and im not pre allo, im pre DO.

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I think MD schools will consider that you worked through undergrad, however if you have a low gpa you need a good mcat to show you have a good grasp of science.
Either way, in both situations that you've described, the DO school is not being more considerate, but rather they are accepting you because you're not as extremely uncompetitive, if not the average applicant. It's just the truth...

willen101383 said:

Yup. Any way you slice it DO programs are willing to put aside some numbers for some cool life experiences. Not to pat my own back but I will use myself as an example. I sucked ass in undergrad. I was immature, not really driven and was way more worried about cars, girls, and partying. Took a year off and got my **** together maturity wise (not to mention freaked out bc I wasnt going to be stuck being a clinical lab technologist forever and there isnt much you can do with a straight bio degree). Went to grad school and smoked the **** out of my masters while working full time as a blood bank technologist. Took the MCAT once and got a 27 and got tons of love from DO schools. Never applied to a single MD because I knew that my 2.45 undergrad was really going to hold me back (not to mention I bought a house and knew Penn/Temple/Jeff wouldnt even accept me and I wasnt going to move for that MD) But those u grad grades never even came up once in an interview. They were far more interested in the fact that I actually had a good career going for myself and was working full time for 5 years in a clinical field. I really dont know that any MD school would have cared more about that dedication to my career vs my undergrad GPA.

Oh and since this was mentioned above, I never had a single retake...and honestly of my core group of friends at school I dont know a single person who did either. I think the potential "GPA boost" from this ability is greatly inflated..especially at the better known schools.

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well you are a perfect example. and hell there isnt crap you can do with a straight up bio degree. you even needed to get certified to become a techonologist.

I have to say though, i have retaken about 6 courses thus far. 4 bieng prereqs. i was advised by admissions at KCOM to do so that way I can increase my academic GPA.

TriagePreMed said:

I think there is some truth in what you say, but I doubt that's the entire picture. DO schools get about 4k applicants. If they wanted numbers alone, they could probably do that. Instead, they want applicants that fit their philosophy. If you look at the Caribbean numbers, many of them could be DO by numbers alone but haven't proven themselves to be accepted.

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I'm sorry, but this is epic bs. DO schools are going to accept the students with good stats and good EC's like any other medical school and a good ability to BS about osteopathic medicine. Also most Carib MD's who have the numbers probably didn't even know DO schools exist or if they did then they believed that an MD was better for them.

Dr Yiot said:

well you are a perfect example. and hell there isnt crap you can do with a straight up bio degree. you even needed to get certified to become a techonologist.

I have to say though, i have retaken about 6 courses thus far. 4 bieng prereqs. i was advised by admissions at KCOM to do so that way I can increase my academic GPA.

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Yep! I am certified and licensed haha. But hey good for you use that to your advantage. Just saying I personally dont know anyone who really retook anything. But us super low GPAers are few and far between (assuming that is your situation).

serenade said:

I think MD schools will consider that you worked through undergrad, however if you have a low gpa you need a good mcat to show you have a good grasp of science.
Either way, in both situations that you've described, the DO school is not being more considerate, but rather they are accepting you because you're not as extremely uncompetitive, if not the average applicant. It's just the truth...

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hmm well maybe its a little of both. taking lower standards of admission but also looking for unique individuals. either way i do not agree that the MD school would also take into account the fact that you worked during undergrad. you need to have the stats for the school or you arent going to get looked at period.

TriagePreMed said:

I think there is some truth in what you say, but I doubt that's the entire picture. DO schools get about 4k applicants. If they wanted numbers alone, they could probably do that. Instead, they want applicants that fit their philosophy. If you look at the Caribbean numbers, many of them could be DO by numbers alone but haven't proven themselves to be accepted.

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Dr Yiot said:

How does this happens? do md schools begin interviews earlier? i know DO schools interview longer and much later. this is my first guess is there anything else as to why MD schools would get the first pick in the litter?

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TPM: well i did say before that there was a whole mess of things that cause it. I just decided to pull out and extrapolate that one as it related more directly to the "this medic vs that medic" argument. But there are plenty of other reasons for non theoretical medic situations.

As for Dr. Yiot: MD schools are more or less done filling their entire class (still doing some very late last minute interviews) before the due date for *applications* for DO schools. So yea. They are done filling their classes at a time where you could still be applying to DO schools. The MD interview cycle tends to run from early september to late january with some handful done in february.

Dr Yiot said:

well that sounds good too. now im confused. but i agree i think with such high volume of applicants that they could essentially fill their quota very well. like a buddy of mine with a 4.0 and 30+ mcat who was straight up rejected post interview from a very well known DO school

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There are many factors that come into this mix. There is no evidence that they were rejected because they didn't fit the "Mission".

willen101383 said:

Yep! I am certified and licensed haha. But hey good for you use that to your advantage. Just saying I personally dont know anyone who really retook anything. But us super low GPAers are few and far between (assuming that is your situation).

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haha yep. brought my gpa from a 2.0 cgpa 1.8 science to a 3.26 cgpa and a 3.2 science. applied last year with a 3.01 sgpa and a 2.97 science and got absolutely no love with my 25 O. this year I applied day one with my new gpa and same mcat. I plan on retaking this january(didnt let any schools know) if I do not get any bites. ive had a 4.0 over the last 60 or so credit hours but its not amounting to anything so far so i am also applying to some masters programs at the same time. im thinking i should have done that this year but its hard to just pick up and move for me as I have a wife and we both have jobs currently so every decision I make is difficult lol but that is my situation

Dr Yiot said:

hmm well maybe its a little of both. taking lower standards of admission but also looking for unique individuals. either way i do not agree that the MD school would also take into account the fact that you worked during undergrad. you need to have the stats for the school or you arent going to get looked at period.

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Same said for DO schools, try to get in with a 3.2/22, it is equivalent of applying to MD with a 3.4/26 or something very uncompetitive. Either way, I don't think they are really looking for uniqueness as much as they are looking for the applicant that will be happy at their school, pass the boards, and graduate.

DocEspana said:

As for Dr. Yiot: MD schools are more or less done filling their entire class (still doing some very late last minute interviews) before the due date for *applications* for DO schools. So yea. They are done filling their classes at a time where you could still be applying to DO schools. The MD interview cycle tends to run from early september to late january with some handful done in february.

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ah I C. so essentially all the MD applicants who got no love could then apply as the DO deadline hasnt passed so your saying they are getting their pick first bc there deadline is earlier than the DO deadline. Thanks for explaining

serenade said:

There are many factors that come into this mix. There is no evidence that they were rejected because they didn't fit the "Mission".

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well then what could it be. they had averages for gpa and mcat a whole standerd deviation above and their EC's were stellar, research out the yang etc. so what could it have been?

serenade said:

Same said for DO schools, try to get in with a 3.2/22, it is equivalent of applying to MD with a 3.4/26 or something very uncompetitive. Either way, I don't think they are really looking for uniqueness as much as they are looking for the applicant that will be happy at their school, pass the boards, and graduate.

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wouldnt you be happy at their school if they felt you met their mission?

Dr Yiot said:

haha yep. brought my gpa from a 2.0 cgpa 1.8 science to a 3.26 cgpa and a 3.2 science. applied last year with a 3.01 sgpa and a 2.97 science and got absolutely no love with my 25 O. this year I applied day one with my new gpa and same mcat. I plan on retaking this january(didnt let any schools know) if I do not get any bites. ive had a 4.0 over the last 60 or so credit hours but its not amounting to anything so far so i am also applying to some masters programs at the same time. im thinking i should have done that this year but its hard to just pick up and move for me as I have a wife and we both have jobs currently so every decision I make is difficult lol but that is my situation

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You have some impressive determination. Keep chugging along...I hope I can be of some inspiration to you. Jobs def. complicate matters...but they really show that you are responsible and know how to operate in a work environment (which I dont think many premeds understand).

willen101383 said:

You have some impressive determination. Keep chugging along...I hope I can be of some inspiration to you. Jobs def. complicate matters...but they really show that you are responsible and know how to operate in a work environment (which I dont think many premeds understand).

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thanks but it is wearing thin lol and i have started having glimpses of lost hope. your def. some inspiration thats for damn sure. im sick of everyone on this forumn bashing less than stellar stats. you should totally kick ass in med school to come back here and talk trash.

thanks for the compliments too btw. you didnt do too bad yourself.

Dr Yiot said:

ah I C. so essentially all the MD applicants who got no love could then apply as the DO deadline hasnt passed so your saying they are getting their pick first bc there deadline is earlier than the DO deadline. Thanks for explaining
No, rather that the MD applicants who got no love from MD are now depending on DO schools.

well then what could it be. they had averages for gpa and mcat a whole standerd deviation above and their EC's were stellar, research out the yang etc. so what could it have been?

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I don't know, maybe he interviewed badly, or maybe he might have been already accepted to another school and his interviewer concluded that he wouldn't likely attend this school. Simply too many things to play to be able to conclude definitively. However, I will agree that at some DO/MD schools like Pikesvile or Howard their is a very clear mission that the applicant needs to be completely geared towards. Schools like PCOM or CCOM or other MD schools, probably not so much.

Dr Yiot said:

wouldnt you be happy at their school if they felt you met their mission?

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Like I said in my previous post, a good amount of DO schools do not have a mission like rural medicine or making physicians that will practice with minorities. However, I will agree with your premise, if you go to KCOM you need to probably be very happy with rural medicine or else you'll not be happy and thus accepted. But, for many other schools they probably don't have a clear cut mission.

serenade said:

I don't know, maybe he interviewed badly, or maybe he might have been already accepted to another school and his interviewer concluded that he wouldn't likely attend this school. Simply too many things to play to be able to conclude definitively. However, I will agree that at some DO/MD schools like Pikesvile or Howard their is a very clear mission that the applicant needs to be completely geared towards. Schools like PCOM or CCOM or other MD schools, probably not so much.

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actually im guessing interviewer concluded he wouldnt have attended that school (and he wouldnt have) so it could have just been a bad interview.


but i would like to personally thank the creator of this thread for helping me boost my post count

serenade said:

Like I said in my previous post, a good amount of DO schools do not have a mission like rural medicine or making physicians that will practice with minorities.

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well its my mission. i love the outdoors, hunting, fishing, bonfires, rodeos, horsebackriding, sex outside. not having to worry about having neighbors. waking up and having to go to the bathroom well wait? why would i pay to flush the toiled when I can go outsife walk 50 yards and take a piss in the woods? but thats just me, and thats just love.

Dr Yiot said:

well its my mission. i love the outdoors, hunting, fishing, bonfires, rodeos, horsebackriding, sex outside. not having to worry about having neighbors. waking up and having to go to the bathroom well wait? why would i pay to flush the toiled when I can go outsife walk 50 yards and take a piss in the woods? but thats just me, and thats just love.

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Yah, I'm a suburb kid, I'd probably fall apart without my touch of city. Oh god....

Dr Yiot said:

actually im guessing interviewer concluded he wouldnt have attended that school (and he wouldnt have) so it could have just been a bad interview.


but i would like to personally thank the creator of this thread for helping me boost my post count

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This thread blew up over the last like two days .

serenade said:

Yah, I'm a suburb kid, I'd probably fall apart without my touch of city. Oh god....

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i grea up in a town of about 50k people so not small by any means. i was exposed to rural living by my mountain man of a father in law. he wont eat it unless he's grown it, or killed it. craziest guy I know. Although I have learned to appreciate rural life, I would prefer to be in a metro area where I can have the best of both worlds.

serenade said:

This thread blew up over the last like two days .

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tru dat

alright im headed to bed. gnight people, see ya tommorow

Dr Yiot said:

thanks but it is wearing thin lol and i have started having glimpses of lost hope. your def. some inspiration thats for damn sure. im sick of everyone on this forumn bashing less than stellar stats. you should totally kick ass in med school to come back here and talk trash.

thanks for the compliments too btw. you didnt do too bad yourself.

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I did kick ass last year in med school...im somewhere in the bottom of the top 25% of my class haha. I am an MS2. Goes to show you how little undergrad grades mean in the grand scheme of things.

willen101383 said:

I did kick ass last year in med school...im somewhere in the bottom of the top 25% of my class haha. I am an MS2. Goes to show you how little undergrad grades mean in the grand scheme of things.

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I'm glad things have turned around for you. I'm a firm believer that your past is not your destiny. I think the older you get, the more responsible you are. Besides, you are now learning what you like, unlike undergrad that has a bunch of filler to it.

TriagePreMed said:

I think there is some truth in what you say, but I doubt that's the entire picture. DO schools get about 4k applicants. If they wanted numbers alone, they could probably do that. Instead, they want applicants that fit their philosophy.

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But could they? I agree that enough students apply with a 3.6/32+ MCAT to DO schools that they could solely accept those with these stats based on the 4K+ applicants. But it's highly unlikely there are enough high stat people who will attend a DO school, as they will likely also have applied to allo schools and gained a few acceptances there with these numbers. So it's not so much about philosophy as much as it is about recruiting those who will likely matriculate.

As much as DO schools want to say they accept students based on fitting their philosophy, stats are very important for a DO schools image and they often insta-accept a higher stat applicant if they apply. Take Nova Southeastern University COM. They had a program this year called the "medical experience program", where if you had a higher MCAT and/or GPA and applied, you were basically recruited by them to the school and guaranteed admission. You didn't even have to do a formal interview- you showed up at the school, they tried to sell the facilities and handed an acceptance to the applicant on a platter. I'm not sure how this program succeeded in actually recruiting the demographic targeted, but I suspect it did not recruit anyone who would not have otherwise attended Nova in a traditional interview cycle.

For the most part supply and demand dictates admissions; a school takes the best applicants it can reasonably get that will actually attend, and an applicant takes the most competitive/prestigious school it can get (with some exceptions). If anything, my example shows that some DO schools can be even more stat conscious than some MD schools, so it really depends on the school.

TriagePreMed said:

I'm glad things have turned around for you. I'm a firm believer that your past is not your destiny. I think the older you get, the more responsible you are. Besides, you are now learning what you like, unlike undergrad that has a bunch of filler to it.

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Thanks man. For some maturity and drive takes a bit longer to develop. No shame in that, and Ive learned so much about myself and life in general along the way. No regrets at all.

patel2 said:

But could they? I agree that enough students apply with a 3.6/32+ MCAT to DO schools that they could solely accept those with these stats based on the 4K+ applicants. But it's highly unlikely there are enough high stat people who will attend a DO school, as they will likely also have applied to allo schools and gained a few acceptances there with these numbers. So it's not so much about philosophy as much as it is about recruiting those who will likely matriculate.

As much as DO schools want to say they accept students based on fitting their philosophy, stats are very important for a DO schools image and they often insta-accept a higher stat applicant if they apply. Take Nova Southeastern University COM. They had a program this year called the "medical experience program", where if you had a higher MCAT and/or GPA and applied, you were basically recruited by them to the school and guaranteed admission. You didn't even have to do a formal interview- you showed up at the school, they tried to sell the facilities and handed an acceptance to the applicant on a platter. I'm not sure how this program succeeded in actually recruiting the demographic targeted, but I suspect it did not recruit anyone who would not have otherwise attended Nova in a traditional interview cycle.

For the most part supply and demand dictates admissions; a school takes the best applicants it can reasonably get that will actually attend, and an applicant takes the most competitive/prestigious school it can get (with some exceptions). If anything, my example shows that some DO schools can be even more stat conscious than some MD schools, so it really depends on the school.

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lol, I'm calling bs on this. Most people with 3.6+/32+ on the MCAT apply to DO school as back up, and frankly the DO schools don't care because that raises the average MCAT/GPA of accepted students.

Also, bs on the "philosophy" there is no such difference between MDs and Dos.

When I applied to DO schools last year I had a 3.8+ and a 31+, after I got accepted to one program I literally blew off every other interview, I literally told my interviewers DO was a back-up in case I didn't get into a MD program. And every program that interviewed me (all 5, except one waitlist) accepted me. And I got off the waitlist at the other school a month later.

The truth of the matter, DO schools look at numbers a lot, they just "pretend" they're looking for that unique applicant. MD schools also want the unique applicant, and given the choice that applicant will likely go MD over DO, 9999/10000.

BTW, DO schools get 4K applications per school. My MD school gets that same amount, why is my MD school having higher admission requirements than the DO school if supply and demand dictates admissions.

I've said this once, I'll say it 100 times. DO schools are just simply willing to take students with lower gpa/MCAT. Notice the period. ECs are nice and will help you slightly, but they would also help you at MD schools.

Truth Wins (Out). Anyone get the reference... Maybe Marcus Bachmann?

And I Was Like said:

lol, I'm calling bs on this. Most people with 3.6+/32+ on the MCAT apply to DO school as back up, and frankly the DO schools don't care because that raises the average MCAT/GPA of accepted students.

Also, bs on the "philosophy" there is no such difference between MDs and Dos.

When I applied to DO schools last year I had a 3.8+ and a 31+, after I got accepted to one program I literally blew off every other interview, I literally told my interviewers DO was a back-up in case I didn't get into a MD program. And every program that interviewed me (all 5, except one waitlist) accepted me. And I got off the waitlist at the other school a month later.

The truth of the matter, DO schools look at numbers a lot, they just "pretend" they're looking for that unique applicant. MD schools also want the unique applicant, and given the choice that applicant will likely go MD over DO, 9999/10000.

BTW, DO schools get 4K applications per school. My MD school gets that same amount, why is my MD school having higher admission requirements than the DO school if supply and demand dictates admissions.

I've said this once, I'll say it 100 times. DO schools are just simply willing to take students with lower gpa/MCAT. Notice the period. ECs are nice and will help you slightly, but they would also help you at MD schools.

Truth Wins (Out). Anyone get the reference... Maybe Marcus Bachmann?

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Agreed for the most part. However I do think DO schools are more likely to allow significant life experiences to make up for a lower GPA; while MD schools simply wont look at you with "X" GPA compared to DO schools. The same life experiences will also likely wow MD adcoms...but if you dont have the stats you wont get in the door.

Pre meds seem to get so hung up on the fact that IT IS easier to get into DO schools. No point in denying it. The MD is the more desired degree and thus will attract the people with higher stats. Perhaps they should start focusing on the fact that this doesnt really mean you will be a worse doctor. No point denying the truth...especially since (as ive demonstrated in myself) those lower grades dont really seem to have too much bearing on your success in med school and the caliber of physician you will be come.

Hell I will even go so far as to say that I personally think a blend of significant clinical work and just sub MD level stats will make you a better physician than someone with just the brains but little compassion or real world patient care experience before getting to med school.

And I Was Like said:

lol, I'm calling bs on this. Most people with 3.6+/32+ on the MCAT apply to DO school as back up, and frankly the DO schools don't care because that raises the average MCAT/GPA of accepted students.

Pretty much, and I doubt even that many apply to fill an entire class.

Also, bs on the "philosophy" there is no such difference between MDs and Dos.

Pretty much.

When I applied to DO schools last year I had a 3.8+ and a 31+, after I got accepted to one program I literally blew off every other interview, I literally told my interviewers DO was a back-up in case I didn't get into a MD program. And every program that interviewed me (all 5, except one waitlist) accepted me. And I got off the waitlist at the other school a month later.

Well, that's a bit surprising.

The truth of the matter, DO schools look at numbers a lot, they just "pretend" they're looking for that unique applicant. MD schools also want the unique applicant, and given the choice that applicant will likely go MD over DO, 9999/10000.

A lot of Pre-DO's really think this, but MD schools have arguably a broader spectrum of applicants and students. Non-trads are also visible at plenty of MD schools as well.

BTW, DO schools get 4K applications per school. My MD school gets that same amount, why is my MD school having higher admission requirements than the DO school if supply and demand dictates admissions.



I've said this once, I'll say it 100 times. DO schools are just simply willing to take students with lower gpa/MCAT. Notice the period. ECs are nice and will help you slightly, but they would also help you at MD schools.

Pretty much what I said. I don't think anyone can really disagree with this statement at all. People like to think DO schools are more forgiving, but when you have an applicant with a 3.4/24 getting accepted, the DO school isn't being forgiving. But rather they are accepting you because you're not 3 Standard Deviations away from the mean like for MD school but rather a little bit beyond 1 standard deviation.
However, in retrospect DO schools do offer a lot more chances for redemption, and as such can be considered a bit more forgiving than MD schools where the only form of redemption is a 50k gamble on an SMP.

Truth Wins (Out). Anyone get the reference... Maybe Marcus Bachmann?

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I thought it was love wins out ( The whole gay to straight therapy). Meh..

But in all honesty, it is worth acknowledging that this isn't completely a numbers game and that certain things like life experiences and EC's are important. But, we should accept the fact that these things are also important for MD schools as well and they also search for a balanced applicant.

serenade said:

I thought it was love wins out ( The whole gay to straight therapy). Meh..

But in all honesty, it is worth acknowledging that this isn't completely a numbers game and that certain things like life experiences and EC's are important. But, we should accept the fact that these things are also important for MD schools as well and they also search for a balanced applicant.

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Another thing to point out is that in my class MANY (if not most) people are right from undergrad and havent really done anything truly meaningful either....they just have lower stats.