Why are DO schools more lenient on GPA/MCATs?

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First, do you have statistics that show the percent of people who take the USMLE "for the hell of it"? I see no reason to believe this other than a couple people. And even so, the people who take "for the hell of it" are pretty much the same as the uninterested/slacker MD students, who still outperform most DO students.

For the remainder of my posts remember I'm not expressing my views- just what many people believe, right or wrong.

Sure could have fooled me in your way of not expressing your views....

Of course I don't have stats on this. It's true, but there is no way to prove it. If MD students had to take the COMLEX as a backup just in case they didn't match ACGME, of course they would have a lower pass rate bc it isn't their main board exam and they don't care AS much for it.

I just hope one day I can pass USMLE on my first try so that I can then be finally considered equal to my MD friends and be as smart as them
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Sure could have fooled me in your way of not expressing your views....

Of course I don't have stats on this. It's true, but there is no way to prove it. If MD students had to take the COMLEX as a backup just in case they didn't match ACGME, of course they would have a lower pass rate bc it isn't their main board exam and they don't care AS much for it.

I just hope one day I can pass USMLE on my first try so that I can then be finally considered equal to my MD friends and be as smart as them
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I said these views may or may not be my own. Please avoid making personal attacks, thanks.

The COMLEX has OMM and Osteopathic philosophy on it, which would require additional study from MD students, plus DO residencies aren't that desirable in general.
The USMLE doesn't have anything on it that's unique to MD programs.

In life, people are always going to look down on others for one reason or another. You should just ignore them, and go on with your life.

These views are just those said by many people, not necessarily by me. I would really appreciate if we stuck to the top rather than making personal attacks or crucifying anyone who disagrees with us.
 
I said these views may or may not be my own. Please avoid making personal attacks, thanks.

The COMLEX has OMM and Osteopathic philosophy on it, which would require additional study from MD students, plus DO residencies aren't that desirable in general.
The USMLE doesn't have anything on it that's unique to MD programs.

In life, people are always going to look down on others for one reason or another. You should just ignore them, and go on with your life.

These views are just those said by many people, not necessarily by me. I would really appreciate if we stuck to the top rather than making personal attacks or crucifying anyone who disagrees with us.

So these views "may" be yours, which means they are.

Yes, I am aware there always people that look down on those for whatever reasons. I work for the Dean of a prestigious medical school in NYC and am around these egotistical academic physicians all day. They look down on everyone bc they think they are superior physicians to anyone. I've never once heard them mention DO vs MD usmle 'first-time test taker' scores though....
 
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So these views "may" be yours, which means they are.

Yes, I am aware there always people that look down on those for whatever reasons. I work for the Dean of a prestigious medical school in NYC and am around these egotistical academic physicians all day. They look down on everyone bc they think they are superior physicians to anyone. I've never once heard them mention DO vs MD usmle 'first-time test taker' scores though....

You know what they say about "assuming" right? I won't say whether or not they're mine. Because it's irrelevant, I'm simply stating arguments that many people use and that doesn't make them any more or less valid.
 
So some Osteopathic students don't pass the USMLE. Some osteopathic students are not as good as allopathic? Who cares? Those that can't pass the USMLE cannot go to ACGME residencies. The problem solves itself, and even if you argue they pass the COMLEX, it's doubtful they'll get the board scores to go beyond Osteopathic family med. You think the guy that couldn't pass the USMLE will go into Osteopathic Neurosurgery or ENT? Come on. Then the USMLE-fails probably won't land a job in the best hospital ever. And guess what? We have nurse practitioners flying solo and PA's basically running entire departments. I will venture to say the worst DO > best NP or PA. What people need to argue is for a change in the exam that med students take. It should be only 1 exam and then everyone can study for it.
 
Yes, I am aware there always people that look down on those for whatever reasons. I work for the Dean of a prestigious medical school in NYC and am around these egotistical academic physicians all day. They look down on everyone bc they think they are superior physicians to anyone. I've never once heard them mention DO vs MD usmle 'first-time test taker' scores though....
If I'm remembering your past posts correctly, I know which school you're talking about. I'm sort of saddened to hear your take on it - I have a nice history with that institution, and the doctors I've spoken with or heard snippets of conversation from have only ever had good things to say about DO's. Granted, that won't reflect the opinion of every doctor there...

All the same, how did we get away from the original topic? There are likely many factors that can explain the trends in USMLE scores. Yes, perhaps one of those factors is the fact that DO programs accept applicants with lower scores indicates that DO students are not as good at standardized testing as their MD student counterparts. It doesn't mean that one group is smarter than another, or that one group will make better doctors than the other. Nobody should feel insecure about it.
 
You know what they say about "assuming" right? I won't say whether or not they're mine. Because it's irrelevant, I'm simply stating arguments that many people use and that doesn't make them any more or less valid.

They are clearly your opinions as I have seen you roaming the pre-DO board a few times here and there (I am not sure why though). You always seem to throw your $.02 in to random posts just so we make sure we know that DO is still inferior to MD (which "may or may not be your opinion", but it is pretty obvious that it is). So thanks for your condescending subtleties. They really helped.
 
If I'm remembering your past posts correctly, I know which school you're talking about. I'm sort of saddened to hear your take on it - I have a nice history with that institution, and the doctors I've spoken with or heard snippets of conversation from have only ever had good things to say about DO's. Granted, that won't reflect the opinion of every doctor there...

All the same, how did we get away from the original topic? There are likely many factors that can explain the trends in USMLE scores. Yes, perhaps one of those factors is the fact that DO programs accept applicants with lower scores indicates that DO students are not as good at standardized testing as their MD student counterparts. It doesn't mean that one group is smarter than another, or that one group will make better doctors than the other. Nobody should feel insecure about it.

You are absolutely right and I agree.

As for the institution I work for, I didn't mean that all the physicians are egotistical. Only some (And that is true for any academic institution). And my point was that no matter how egotistical they are, I have never heard any of them say a bad thing about DO physicians or students. After all, I speak with the Dean here quite extensively about going to a DO school and he is nothing but supportive and excited for me.
 
They are clearly your opinions as I have seen you roaming the pre-DO board a few times here and there (I am not sure why though). You always seem to throw your $.02 in to random posts just so we make sure we know that DO is still inferior to MD (which "may or may not be your opinion", but it is pretty obvious that it is). So thanks for your condescending subtleties. They really helped.

I never said such things. I would appreciate if you stopped the personal attacks and putting words in my mouth. I have never and would never say such things, in fact if you've read my previous posts you would know I've said that DOs are the legal and professional equivalents. Don't get so defensive, please.

What was the original topic of this thread again...?
 
After all, I speak with the Dean here quite extensively about going to a DO school and he is nothing but supportive and excited for me.
I'm not sure exactly which dean you're referring to (Dean of the Medical School? Education? Admissions? Something else?) but I'm familiar with most of them and they're all great people.

I thought that And I Was Like is a DO student?
 
I'm not sure exactly which dean you're referring to (Dean of the Medical School? Education? Admissions? Something else?) but I'm familiar with most of them and they're all great people.

I thought that And I Was Like is a DO student?

All of them are super nice to me bc thankfully I havent screwed anything up yet! However, I have seen them rip people a new one though haha.

and he is MD student
 
I'm not sure exactly which dean you're referring to (Dean of the Medical School? Education? Admissions? Something else?) but I'm familiar with most of them and they're all great people.

I thought that And I Was Like is a DO student?

I'm a MD student, but I applied DO and was going to go DO until I gained acceptance at a MD school. We can still be friends though, right? ;)

Also, as I have to remind people every single post. I believe DOs to be the professional and legal equivalent to MDs.
 
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Ah - not that it really makes a difference which degree track you're on (in my opinion), but thanks for the clarification.
 
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I'm a MD student, but I applied DO and was going to go DO until I gained acceptance at a MD school. We can still be friends though, right? ;)

Also, as I have to remind people every single post. I believe DOs to be the professional and legal equivalent to MDs.

haha from here on out you cannot post unless you put that disclaimer! Just put it in your sig.:thumbup:
 
haha from here on out you cannot post unless you put that disclaimer! Just put it in your sig.:thumbup:

ROFL. Like I said - I was just repeating common arguments, they're not what I believe. But even if they were would it make them any more or less valid?
 
So some Osteopathic students don't pass the USMLE. Some osteopathic students are not as good as allopathic? Who cares? Those that can't pass the USMLE cannot go to ACGME residencies. The problem solves itself, and even if you argue they pass the COMLEX, it's doubtful they'll get the board scores to go beyond Osteopathic family med. You think the guy that couldn't pass the USMLE will go into Osteopathic Neurosurgery or ENT? Come on. Then the USMLE-fails probably won't land a job in the best hospital ever. And guess what? We have nurse practitioners flying solo and PA's basically running entire departments. I will venture to say the worst DO > best NP or PA. What people need to argue is for a change in the exam that med students take. It should be only 1 exam and then everyone can study for it.

Funny thing is that the students of older DO school ( Which have higher stats) pass the USMLE almost at the same rate as MD students. I believe I've heard that NYCOM students pass at around 88-92%.
 
Anything interesting happen in the last hours while I was gone....

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holy macaroni. This went on a hell of a tangent.
 
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well n = 1. You've posted the statistics that show even though there is self-selection for DO students taking the USMLE they consistently score lower than MD students and have a significantly lower pass rate.

The question is why does this happen? Even if the COMLEX had lots of trick questions/whatever shouldn't that be more reason for DO students to score higher on the USMLE. I saw this posted before and am only repeating it: If MDs and DOs learn the exact same thing shouldn't their scores on the USMLE (which doesn't have OMM or Osteopathic history) be similar, or at least have a very slight difference. Well, this isn't what happens as the statistics show.

I will say this again, this isn't necessarily what I believe, but what is a lot of people think. These views may or may not be my own, I'm only repeating common arguments.

Just an OMS-1, but it is my understanding that DO students take USMLE first, then study an additional week after that for the OMM content of COMLEX--this is the most efficient way to study. Thus, saying they should be better due to 'trickier' questions isn't valid. Not ragging on your post, just letting you know the schedule of events, so-to-speak.

I think the whole COMLEX vs. USMLE debate is moot unless we having allopaths who take a modified COMLEX
 
Just an OMS-1, but it is my understanding that DO students take USMLE first, then study an additional week after that for the OMM content of COMLEX--this is the most efficient way to study. Thus, saying they should be better due to 'trickier' questions isn't valid. Not ragging on your post, just letting you know the schedule of events, so-to-speak.

I think the whole COMLEX vs. USMLE debate is moot unless we having allopaths who take a modified COMLEX

that schedule doesnt really work though because its not that the comlex questions are harder per say.... its that the usmle gives you very clinical questions with tons of findings and you have to go through the questions and often find the single little change that differnetiates out the right answer from the wrong ones.

the comlex is well known for either giving wholly useless information, (rarely) giving misleading information, or leaving out huge number of routine tests/findings so that the right answer wont be decipherable without utilizing the OMM findings as well.

the way they justify giving misleading info is that in real life you can get a random abberrent finding that doesnt fit with everything else and you need to throw it out. the usmle relies on you honing in on this finding and realizing its key to the diagnosis.

by that change alone the comlex throws lots of people for loops. It doesnt excuse the lower pass rate, but it might better help you understand why 1 week of studying doesnt really account for enough time to change the whole mindset youve been on for 2-3 months, if youve been USMLE-focused til then.

edit: also, and this is more minor, a comlex question tends to be 2x the length of a USMLE question. but thats just a stamina thing when youre dealing witha 400 question test.
 
DOs are more lenient on on MCATS/GRADES because they accept students with atypical life experiences and weigh the interview much more than other typical MD schools. I have a kids in my class that climbed Mt.Everest, ran away from Cuba, were former PAs, PharmDs, JDs, etc. There is a kid with a 38 mcat in my class. People that worked in the business and engineering industries and came back to school. DO schools seem to value those things. Now saying that if u think the class average mcat of a 30 at say NSU is lenient, thats you. Irregardless, i find it hard pressed to believe that a DO from Michigan State is less than an MD at most state college programs. Some DOs suck, some are good, some are amazing. Just like MDs who range from IMGs from india and south america to Harvard and Stanford trained docs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misinformed.

On the USMLE debate..Most DO kids study for comlex and then take the USMLE. Some truely study for it, some wing it. The score is irrelevant for DO kids since you don't have to disclose the score, but you do have to pass the comlex.

My thoughts is that the degree is going to be changed to MD, DO in the next 20-30 years. The old guys at the AOA will die, the young guys will change it. To many problems with MD's wanting to do Manipulations since its so profitable (Harvard i think, just started a manipulations course, since AOA had objections to MDs doing it).. Osteopaths in other countries have the title DO but only do manipulations and want to come to the US and DOs here want to go elsewhere...NPs PAs..PHDs etc etc calling themselves doctor and misleading patients in the clinical setting... and lastly because annoying pre-med trolls complain about how they want "prestige" and how other doctors might look down on them, because they can't get into a MD program, as if getting into a DO program was really so much easier.
 
My thoughts is that the degree is going to be changed to MD, DO in the next 20-30 years.

Absolutely not. DOs are NOT MDs. To put MD, DO after your name is misleading. The MD title is reserved for LCME accredited schools. If DO schools want to go through the LCME accreditation process and award a MD degree, that's fine.

It's possible that someone who had the grades/ECs would go to a DO school over an MD school, but outside if gigantic exceptions (like being unable to move, etc.) this is EXTREMELY rare.

Also, MD schools contrary to what people like to say on these forms look at much more than just numbers. Just because someone has a 3.8/33+ on the MCAT doesn't mean they're a shoe-in at MD schools, there's so much more to the AMCAS application.

/rant
 
Absolutely not. DOs are NOT MDs. To put MD, DO after your name is misleading. The MD title is reserved for LCME accredited schools. If DO schools want to go through the LCME accreditation process and award a MD degree, that's fine.

It's possible that someone who had the grades/ECs would go to a DO school over an MD school, but outside if gigantic exceptions (like being unable to move, etc.) this is EXTREMELY rare.

Also, MD schools contrary to what people like to say on these forms look at much more than just numbers. Just because someone has a 3.8/33+ on the MCAT doesn't mean they're a shoe-in at MD schools, there's so much more to the AMCAS application.

/rant

heeeeere we go again. Ive never seen someone so obsessed with LCME approval
 
heeeeere we go again. Ive never seen someone so obsessed with LCME approval

Nothing wrong was said. It's just a simple fact. LCME accredited institutions are the only US institutions allowed to grant a MD degree. DO schools are not LCME accredited. 1+1 = 2

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying they're not the same. Also, the AOA would never allow this to ever happen, especially because the only people who get high up in the AOA will be the gung-ho "DOs are different"-type.
 
Nothing wrong was said. It's just a simple fact. LCME accredited institutions are the only US institutions allowed to grant a MD degree. DO schools are not LCME accredited. 1+1 = 2

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying they're not the same. Also, the AOA would never allow this to ever happen, especially because the only people who get high up in the AOA will be the gung-ho "DOs are different"-type.

Ive seen you preach about the LCME in other posts and how DO schools won't get LCME approved etc etc...

Like the poster before you said; The older guys will die off leaving the new generation to step up to the AOA. Changes may happen...
 
I actually dont believe any schools do the MCAT super scoring. But if you have proof otherwise then I'm wrong.

Stopped reading the thread after a couple posts, but for MD, GWU does this, looks at the best subsection score for multiple MCATs (iirc, called composite score)
 
Nothing wrong was said. It's just a simple fact. LCME accredited institutions are the only US institutions allowed to grant a MD degree. DO schools are not LCME accredited. 1+1 = 2

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying they're not the same. Also, the AOA would never allow this to ever happen, especially because the only people who get high up in the AOA will be the gung-ho "DOs are different"-type.
So what? MDs exist in countries where LCME doesn't even exist.

Personally, I think that if a physician has completed an ACGME residency, he or she should be allowed to use "MD." Notice, I said "allowed to use." I don't think ACGME should convert degrees.
 
Ive seen you preach about the LCME in other posts and how DO schools won't get LCME approved etc etc...

I've never said such a thing, don't put words in my mouth.

I've said I can think of at least program that won't obtain LCME and then cited the rule LCME has about for-profit medical education. This is not an attack on DOs, DO students, or DO schools, it's simply a fact. A certain for-profit school will never obtain LCME accreditation unless a lot of things change.

That's I think the only time I've ever said LCME in any of my posts, feel free to cite my history if it so pleases you. Like I said, personal attacks and blatant lies don't further any argument.

Also, this user believes DOs are the professional and legal equivalent to MDs. That said MD and DO are not the same thing, they're different degrees that accomplish the same purpose. Cats and Dogs are not the same, they're both very good pets and I'm not saying cats are better than dogs or dogs are better than cats.

I would appreciate if you stop assuming I'm attacking anyone. Thanks.
 
heeeeere we go again. Ive never seen someone so obsessed with LCME approval

Sorry, but I wouldn't mind if the DO degree was still around, but that LCME operated in DO school accreditation as opposed to COCA. I cannot stand COCA and it's walmart style of operation. It insists on opening extremely poor quality schools which are incredibly deficient in resources and connections and truly do nothing but pocket the owners money. If COCA isn't either revamped or removed, then it's going to simply drive the DO profession into the dirt.
 
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So what? MDs exist in countries where LCME doesn't even exist.

Personally, I think that if a physician has completed an ACGME residency, he or she should be allowed to use "MD." Notice, I said "allowed to use." I don't think ACGME should convert degrees.

I'm sorry, I assumed we were referring to US education where a school can't award MD degrees without LCME accreditation, much like how DO can't be awarded without COCA accreditation. Most other countries, especially in Europe have a DO degree that is for non-physician practitioners of OMM.

If you feel that way, you should contact the LCME/ACGME and work that out with them. I don't see it happening. To be honest, I think I may support that idea, I just don't think the AOA would ever let it pass.

I do pray that the AOA leadership changes and either 1) accepts the AMA's offer to simply merge or 2) get off their high horse and do what's best for the profession instead of pretending there's a difference between MDs and DOs.
 
Sorry, but I wouldn't mind if the DO degree was still around, but that LCME operated in DO school accreditation as opposed to COCA. I cannot stand COCA and it's walmart style of operation. It insists on opening extremely poor quality schools which are incredibly deficient in resources and connections and truly do nothing but pocket the owners money. If COCA isn't either revamped or removed, then it's going to simply drive the DO profession into the dirt.

I'm not sure what your referencing here with walmart schools... can you elaborate a little? Is it safe to assume we're talking about a certain for-profit school?

BTW, just to reiterate my feelings:

MD = DO >>>>>>>> Caribbean

or if it makes some of you feel better

DO = MD >>>>>>>> Caribbean

(I think I used the same amount of arrows...)
 
DO schools are in majority stand alone institutes, which have either no home university connections nor teaching hospital/ strong clerkship. The older DO schools have been able to carve out niches in their area's and effectively made their education completely comparable to MD students.
However, never DO schools are even more so stand alone institutes, which seemingly almost popped out of the ground yesterday and have very weak connections. Hence the Walmart style of operation comment which has become popular on DO forums. However whats worse is a lot of these DO schools are opened up in area's where the competition for rotations is already fierce.

Either way, many DO's now are actually trying to block COCA from opening up these schools until more DO residencies are opened up.
 
Sorry, but I wouldn't mind if the DO degree was still around, but that LCME operated in DO school accreditation as opposed to COCA. I cannot stand COCA and it's walmart style of operation. It insists on opening extremely poor quality schools which are incredibly deficient in resources and connections and truly do nothing but pocket the owners money. If COCA isn't either revamped or removed, then it's going to simply drive the DO profession into the dirt.

And you know this because you just finished your sophomore year in college and have SOO much experience in the medical world?
 
I'm sorry, I assumed we were referring to US education where a school can't award MD degrees without LCME accreditation, much like how DO can't be awarded without COCA accreditation. Most other countries, especially in Europe have a DO degree that is for non-physician practitioners of OMM.

If you feel that way, you should contact the LCME/ACGME and work that out with them. I don't see it happening. To be honest, I think I may support that idea, I just don't think the AOA would ever let it pass.

I do pray that the AOA leadership changes and either 1) accepts the AMA's offer to simply merge or 2) get off their high horse and do what's best for the profession instead of pretending there's a difference between MDs and DOs.

I think it is in the AOA's best interest to change the name because as was previously mentioned, it makes things difficult with going overseas.
 
DO schools are in majority stand alone institutes, which have either no home university connections nor teaching hospital/ strong clerkship. The older DO schools have been able to carve out niches in their area's and effectively made their education completely comparable to MD students.
However, never DO schools are even more so stand alone institutes, which seemingly almost popped out of the ground yesterday and have very weak connections. Hence the Walmart style of operation comment which has become popular on DO forums. However whats worse is a lot of these DO schools are opened up in area's where the competition for rotations is already fierce.

Either way, many DO's now are actually trying to block COCA from opening up these schools until more DO residencies are opened up.


Oh ok, I see what you mean. Yeah, once again a big difference between COCA and LCME accreditation. But I'm certain that several schools could get LCME approved with VERY little changes (CCOM, PCOM, OU, MSU, OSU, etc.) among others. (These are just the first that came to my mind, NOT an entire list, so don't attack me on that).

Also denco, what did I just say about making personal attacks. His points are valid, and it doesn't require a PH.D/MD/DO/any degree to see something a little odd occuring. As I said 100 times before, personal attacks do NOTHING to further an argument.
 
Oh ok, I see what you mean. Yeah, once again a big difference between COCA and LCME accreditation. But I'm certain that several schools could get LCME approved with VERY little changes (CCOM, PCOM, OU, MSU, OSU, etc.) among others. (These are just the first that came to my mind, NOT an entire list, so don't attack me on that).

Also denco, what did I just say about making personal attacks. His points are valid, and it doesn't require a PH.D/MD/DO/any degree to see something a little odd occuring. As I said 100 times before, personal attacks do NOTHING to further an argument.

Almost all the older DO schools could get LCME accreditation if they invested a little into research their research programs. It would be 100x better for the profession for DO's to have stronger institutes and conduct research. And in my opinion, if it means having to shut down a few schools which really are giving their students a sub-par education than so be it.
And to Denco, I'm not really saying anything new or pulling this out of my ass. These are real concerns from real DO's and DO students that are very vocally voiced on the "9 New DO schools" Thread on Osteopathic. Because really, no one wants the profession to turn into poop and be represented by a cesspool of dirt poor schools.
 
Point of information: COCA and LCME have nearly carbon copy statutes except for the famed omission of the "no education for-profit" clause from COCAs operating procedures. They're so similar that when the AMA makes policy that applies to the LCME policy they can nearly always append "And corresponding COCA policy" to the AMA policy. They *know* its there because the two organizations copy each other down to phrases that have synonyms so as to not be full plaigarisation.

It should be no big deal for 90-100% of the accredited DO schools to get LCME accreditation.

My personal thought on the DO-MD degree thought: it will never happen. Doesn't matter how many old geezers retire, the AOA is a self-selecting bias. That sort of change needs to come from the AOA and two things are totally true 1) they will not elect to invalidate themselves and 2) to become powerful in the AOA you need to spend years putting up with the old coots who run it right now. The only people who will put up with them for long enough are the people who agree with them already. So the old coots will be replaced by younger DO Kool-aid drinkers. The hubris will not diminish in the next 20 years.
 
Then why even open up DO schools? Why did Touro easily open up DO schools and had difficulty opening up even 1 MD school?
 
Then why even open up DO schools? Why did Touro easily open up DO schools and had difficulty opening up even 1 MD school?

This. COCA is much more willing to open a brand new DO school just for the sake of opening one than the LCME is, this is unfortunate. It would almost appear from the outside that all one needs for COCA accreditation is a song and a dance (ke$ha will do).

I'm not trying to start any flaming, but there are some definite differences. I'm not about to sit through the COCA website comparing word for word against the LCME website, because the proof is in the massive increase in new schools in just the past couple of new years. Many of these schools don't even have clinical rotations set in concrete. I know one AZ school has to send a vast majority of their students to Ohio for rotations, some even do rotations here in Michigan.

The LCME schools opening up all are affiliated with a hospital system, so their clincal students are set for rotations and not forced to move to a completely different states for their last 2 years.
 
Almost all the older DO schools could get LCME accreditation if they invested a little into research their research programs. It would be 100x better for the profession for DO's to have stronger institutes and conduct research. And in my opinion, if it means having to shut down a few schools which really are giving their students a sub-par education than so be it.
And to Denco, I'm not really saying anything new or pulling this out of my ass. These are real concerns from real DO's and DO students that are very vocally voiced on the "9 New DO schools" Thread on Osteopathic. Because really, no one wants the profession to turn into poop and be represented by a cesspool of dirt poor schools.

And I commented on there this list of new schools being proposed...


Alabama Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine[44] Dothan DO 2013
California University of California, Merced School of Medicine[45] Merced MD 2013
California University of California, Riverside School of Medicine[46] Riverside MD 2012
California The Scripps Research Institute School of Medicine La Jolla MD 2013[47]
California California Northstate University College of Medicine[48] Elk Grove MD 2012
Connecticut Quinnipiac University[49] North Haven MD 2013 or 2014
Florida Palm Beach Medical College Palm Beach MD Under Discussion
Indiana Marian University[50] Indianapolis DO Under Discussion
Michigan Central Michigan University College of Medicine[51] Mount Pleasant MD 2013
Michigan Western Michigan University[52] Kalamazoo MD Under Discussion
Missouri Missouri Southern State University KCUMB Partnership Joplin DO 2012
New Jersey Cooper Medical School of Rowan University[53] Camden MD 2012
New Mexico Bataan Medical School of University of New Mexico Las Cruces MD Under Discussion
Oklahoma OU - TU School of Community Medicine[54] Tulsa MD 2014
Oregon Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific Lebanon DO 2011
Pennsylvania Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine at Seton Hill University[55] Greensburg DO 2011
South Carolina Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine: Carolinas Campus[56] Spartanburg DO 2011
Tennessee King School of Medicine[57] Bristol MD 2012
Texas University of Houston[citation needed] Houston MD Under Discussion

13 MD programs being proposed on this list alone...
 
This. COCA is much more willing to open a brand new DO school just for the sake of opening one than the LCME is, this is unfortunate. It would almost appear from the outside that all one needs for COCA accreditation is a song and a dance (ke$ha will do).
I've been thinking a bit about this. Are there any official reasons for this? My thinking is that there are fewer DO-granting schools than MD-granting schools. The AOA is big on carving out a name for DO's (and keeping DO's separate from MD's), but part of the problem is that DO's aren't as well-known or recognized compared with MD's. One solution is to get more DO's into the workforce, so that people encounter them more frequently. It's harder on the students, but it makes DO's more visible to the population at large.

If that's really the reasoning, then it ignores complications that can arise from the massive expansion without addressing other aspects of the medical training.
 
And I commented on there this list of new schools being proposed...


Alabama Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine[44] Dothan DO 2013
California University of California, Merced School of Medicine[45] Merced MD 2013
California University of California, Riverside School of Medicine[46] Riverside MD 2012
California The Scripps Research Institute School of Medicine La Jolla MD 2013[47]
California California Northstate University College of Medicine[48] Elk Grove MD 2012
Connecticut Quinnipiac University[49] North Haven MD 2013 or 2014
Florida Palm Beach Medical College Palm Beach MD Under Discussion
Indiana Marian University[50] Indianapolis DO Under Discussion
Michigan Central Michigan University College of Medicine[51] Mount Pleasant MD 2013
Michigan Western Michigan University[52] Kalamazoo MD Under Discussion
Missouri Missouri Southern State University KCUMB Partnership Joplin DO 2012
New Jersey Cooper Medical School of Rowan University[53] Camden MD 2012
New Mexico Bataan Medical School of University of New Mexico Las Cruces MD Under Discussion
Oklahoma OU - TU School of Community Medicine[54] Tulsa MD 2014
Oregon Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific Lebanon DO 2011
Pennsylvania Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine at Seton Hill University[55] Greensburg DO 2011
South Carolina Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine: Carolinas Campus[56] Spartanburg DO 2011
Tennessee King School of Medicine[57] Bristol MD 2012
Texas University of Houston[citation needed] Houston MD Under Discussion

13 MD programs being proposed on this list alone...


Yeah I saw this list, except that at least 3 of the MD schools aren't going to happen because the schools "delayed" the starting of them, AKA it's going to be a while. The other is which Palm Beach Medical College is going to be a for-profit school, it won't meet LCME standards and has zero chance of getting accredited.

This is old news and simply isn't relevant anymore. Moving on...
 
And I commented on there this list of new schools being proposed...


Alabama Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine[44] Dothan DO 2013
California University of California, Merced School of Medicine[45] Merced MD 2013
California University of California, Riverside School of Medicine[46] Riverside MD 2012
California The Scripps Research Institute School of Medicine La Jolla MD 2013[47]
California California Northstate University College of Medicine[48] Elk Grove MD 2012
Connecticut Quinnipiac University[49] North Haven MD 2013 or 2014
Florida Palm Beach Medical College Palm Beach MD Under Discussion
Indiana Marian University[50] Indianapolis DO Under Discussion
Michigan Central Michigan University College of Medicine[51] Mount Pleasant MD 2013
Michigan Western Michigan University[52] Kalamazoo MD Under Discussion
Missouri Missouri Southern State University KCUMB Partnership Joplin DO 2012
New Jersey Cooper Medical School of Rowan University[53] Camden MD 2012
New Mexico Bataan Medical School of University of New Mexico Las Cruces MD Under Discussion
Oklahoma OU - TU School of Community Medicine[54] Tulsa MD 2014
Oregon Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific Lebanon DO 2011
Pennsylvania Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine at Seton Hill University[55] Greensburg DO 2011
South Carolina Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine: Carolinas Campus[56] Spartanburg DO 2011
Tennessee King School of Medicine[57] Bristol MD 2012
Texas University of Houston[citation needed] Houston MD Under Discussion

13 MD programs being proposed on this list alone...

Almost all of the MD universities have huge NIH funding and a home institute with an undergrads and graduate students in many fields. In fact one of these new institutes has more NIH funding then half of all DO funding combined.
 
Point of information: COCA and LCME have nearly carbon copy statutes except for the famed omission of the "no education for-profit" clause from COCAs operating procedures. They're so similar that when the AMA makes policy that applies to the LCME policy they can nearly always append "And corresponding COCA policy" to the AMA policy. They *know* its there because the two organizations copy each other down to phrases that have synonyms so as to not be full plaigarisation.

It should be no big deal for 90-100% of the accredited DO schools to get LCME accreditation.

My personal thought on the DO-MD degree thought: it will never happen. Doesn't matter how many old geezers retire, the AOA is a self-selecting bias. That sort of change needs to come from the AOA and two things are totally true 1) they will not elect to invalidate themselves and 2) to become powerful in the AOA you need to spend years putting up with the old coots who run it right now. The only people who will put up with them for long enough are the people who agree with them already. So the old coots will be replaced by younger DO Kool-aid drinkers. The hubris will not diminish in the next 20 years.
This is the same thing that was said in psychiatry about getting Freud out of the pedestal. People said it would never happen. Every generation comes with some bias. That bias will spill into changes.
 
Yeah I saw this list, except that at least 3 of the MD schools aren't going to happen because the schools "delayed" the starting of them, AKA it's going to be a while. The other is which Palm Beach Medical College is going to be a for-profit school, it won't meet LCME standards and has zero chance of getting accredited.

This is old news and simply isn't relevant anymore. Moving on...

You kind of proved my point... I was saying yes the 9 DO schools are PROPOSED schools, but most likely not all 9 will come into existence. Schools are proposed all of the time and very few are actually accredited.
 
I've been thinking a bit about this. Are there any official reasons for this? My thinking is that there are fewer DO-granting schools than MD-granting schools. The AOA is big on carving out a name for DO's (and keeping DO's separate from MD's), but part of the problem is that DO's aren't as well-known or recognized compared with MD's. One solution is to get more DO's into the workforce, so that people encounter them more frequently. It's harder on the students, but it makes DO's more visible to the population at large.

If that's really the reasoning, then it ignores complications that can arise from the massive expansion without addressing other aspects of the medical training.

I agree, that's what I suspect the reasoning they have behind opening up all these schools so fast (maybe recklessly).

I said this in a post a couple weeks ago, but I think the AOA needs to be doing advertisements on TV/Magazines about DOs I know i heard about a "Doctor begins with DO campaign" a couple years back. This is the best way to educated the public, rather than by mass producing DOs with, I'm sorry to say, half-ass clinical locations.
 
You kind of proved my point... I was saying yes the 9 DO schools are PROPOSED schools, but most likely not all 9 will come into existence. Schools are proposed all of the time and very few are actually accredited.

Actually, that's true for LCME, not for COCA. I would put money on most of the COCA schools being accredited unless a push is made to halt accreditation to increase residency spots.
 
Then why even open up DO schools? Why did Touro easily open up DO schools and had difficulty opening up even 1 MD school?

Also the problem with the Touro MD school was the facilities and the fact that there would be no "affordable" housing for the students to live. I live down the block from this "proposed" school and it would have been a complete disaster to open up a school in the area. No one here wanted it, there was no room for dorming, and the median home in the down is 450,000 with no apartment living. It would have been awful.
 
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