Why are DO schools more lenient on GPA/MCATs?

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Another thing to point out is that in my class MANY (if not most) people are right from undergrad and havent really done anything truly meaningful either....they just have lower stats.

I don't think many pre-meds do many meaningful things . Save for the 5% who actually publish an independent work or 1% who spend a year or longer as an EMT or in the WHO.

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[willen101383]

I don't think many pre-meds do many meaningful things . Save for the 5% who actually publish an independent work or 1% who spend a year or longer as an EMT or in the WHO.

haha I will use my group of friends as an example:

1-came right from undergrad and is the most immature kid I know.
2-Older dude like me, worked in various non clinical jobs/ did a little research for 5 years.
3-Came right from undergrad and is super awkward and doesnt know how to handle social situations.
4-Older guy like me who spent years in africa etc saving the world and was like "eh fk it ill go to med school...did a post bacc and got the grades.
5-Older than me by a few years...didnt really do much to my knowledge aside from working odd jobs.
6-Right out of undergrad but is an EMT and worked for a while in a high volume ED.
7-Older guy like me worked for 4 years as a paramedic and got an MPH before heading to school.
8-Right out of undergrad..tied for most immature kid I know. Wont agree with anything you say unless you agree with him unless hes wrong.
9-Brilliant kid...got the grades...but wasnt ready for med school and was more worried about WoW than studying...failed out. (one of I think 3 that didnt make it through M1)
10-Came right from undergrad and is only concerned with how much time she gets to spend on the beach and is totally obsessed with her grades even in trivial courses like OMM

So pretty much myself and 5 are the only 2 who have actually worked for an appreciable amount of time in healthcare. 4 is the most genuinely interested in being a doctor so he can save the world. Pretty much everyone else is run of the mill.

Wow I am bored (at the in laws).

 

[River Rat]

For someone who goes to a DO school and is well-prepared for the COMLEX, is a lot of extra studying needed specifically for the USMLE?

I just sat for both exams (last month, still waiting on my COMLEX scores.) This is the general sentiment that arises, and I take a slight issue with it. I don't want to say 'extra studying' is needed, because it infers that there is a whole lot more subjects, ideas, topics left to study (I don't want to count OMM because you can do that through Savarese in a day or two,) but you do need to put time and effort on 'practice', getting used to the format and question style (even maybe a feel for what the question writers are trying to extrapolate as an answer for each question if you're that intuitive.)

I was told that it would be a 'bad idea' to take both exams due to the extra work involved, that it somehow entailed that I was studying for 'two exams'. That simply is not true. We all learn from the same books, we learn the same material, and we all know the same things. I really believe that it wasn't anything special I needed to be doing besides familiarizing myself with OMM (which in the end, is very basic basic stuff, which if you paid attention at all during the school year, would make you look like a genius come the day you take the COMLEX. I was also told that many people blow this off, since it's so easy, not realizing that it's easy points on the test in the end) and how exactly the COMLEX (or USMLE) was worded. This is where going through multiple runs through COMBANK, USMLEWorld, the NBME/COMSAEs come in handy while you're studying for the exams. By the end of it all, I didn't really feel like there was a big difference anymore and you could probably mix the different COMLEX/USMLE questions together and it wouldn't bother me anymore

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

haha I will use my group of friends as an example:

1-came right from undergrad and is the most immature kid I know.
2-Older dude like me, worked in various non clinical jobs/ did a little research for 5 years.
3-Came right from undergrad and is super awkward and doesnt know how to handle social situations.
4-Older guy like me who spent years in africa etc saving the world and was like "eh fk it ill go to med school...did a post bacc and got the grades.
5-Older than me by a few years...didnt really do much to my knowledge aside from working odd jobs.
6-Right out of undergrad but is an EMT and worked for a while in a high volume ED.
7-Older guy like me worked for 4 years as a paramedic and got an MPH before heading to school.
8-Right out of undergrad..tied for most immature kid I know. Wont agree with anything you say unless you agree with him unless hes wrong.
9-Brilliant kid...got the grades...but wasnt ready for med school and was more worried about WoW than studying...failed out. (one of I think 3 that didnt make it through M1)
10-Came right from undergrad and is only concerned with how much time she gets to spend on the beach and is totally obsessed with her grades even in trivial courses like OMM

So pretty much myself and 5 are the only 2 who have actually worked for an appreciable amount of time in healthcare. 4 is the most genuinely interested in being a doctor so he can save the world. Pretty much everyone else is run of the mill.

Wow I am bored (at the in laws).

Hmm... I think I'm going to populate the niche of silly people who think they're funny.... I might succeed till I have a colossal mental break down after or in between my Ob/Gyn and pediatrics rotation.

 

[River Rat]

lol, I'm calling bs on this. Most people with 3.6+/32+ on the MCAT apply to DO school as back up, and frankly the DO schools don't care because that raises the average MCAT/GPA of accepted students.

Also, bs on the "philosophy" there is no such difference between MDs and Dos.

When I applied to DO schools last year I had a 3.8+ and a 31+, after I got accepted to one program I literally blew off every other interview, I literally told my interviewers DO was a back-up in case I didn't get into a MD program. And every program that interviewed me (all 5, except one waitlist) accepted me. And I got off the waitlist at the other school a month later.

The truth of the matter, DO schools look at numbers a lot, they just "pretend" they're looking for that unique applicant. MD schools also want the unique applicant, and given the choice that applicant will likely go MD over DO, 9999/10000.

BTW, DO schools get 4K applications per school. My MD school gets that same amount, why is my MD school having higher admission requirements than the DO school if supply and demand dictates admissions.

I've said this once, I'll say it 100 times. DO schools are just simply willing to take students with lower gpa/MCAT. Notice the period. ECs are nice and will help you slightly, but they would also help you at MD schools.

Truth Wins (Out). Anyone get the reference... Maybe Marcus Bachmann?

+1. Also maybe worth mentioning is, at least in my school, that there are a lot of non-traditional students. I think the average age at matriculation was 25. Probably has a link to a lower undergraduate GPA, but does this indicate the school's desire to look elsewhere on the application, or is it probably irrelevant because these same students with different life paths / unique experiences would have taken the MD route had they have higher GPAs.

 

[patel2]

lol, I'm calling bs on this. Most people with 3.6+/32+ on the MCAT apply to DO school as back up, and frankly the DO schools don't care because that raises the average MCAT/GPA of accepted students.

Also, bs on the "philosophy" there is no such difference between MDs and Dos.

When I applied to DO schools last year I had a 3.8+ and a 31+, after I got accepted to one program I literally blew off every other interview, I literally told my interviewers DO was a back-up in case I didn't get into a MD program. And every program that interviewed me (all 5, except one waitlist) accepted me. And I got off the waitlist at the other school a month later.

The truth of the matter, DO schools look at numbers a lot, they just "pretend" they're looking for that unique applicant. MD schools also want the unique applicant, and given the choice that applicant will likely go MD over DO, 9999/10000.

BTW, DO schools get 4K applications per school. My MD school gets that same amount, why is my MD school having higher admission requirements than the DO school if supply and demand dictates admissions.

I've said this once, I'll say it 100 times. DO schools are just simply willing to take students with lower gpa/MCAT. Notice the period. ECs are nice and will help you slightly, but they would also help you at MD schools.

Truth Wins (Out). Anyone get the reference... Maybe Marcus Bachmann?

what are you calling BS on lol? I pretty much said the exact same thing as you in my post. Hence the analogy of Nova, aschool that is very stat conscious and took any high MCAT/GPA person in their inaugural med experience program.

The "philosophy" stuff is BS, no doubt. Supply and demand dictates admissions in the DO world just as much as in the MD. Schools take the best applicants it can get and applicants take the best school it can get. Lower averages reflect this, it's not a matter of some very unique admission system at place that considers the whole and is more forgiving of certain things. If there were enough 4.0s/36 out there who wanted to attend a DO school, they would certailny be bumping the 3.2/28 applicants with crazy cool life experiences in the DO admission process.

 

[And I Was Like]

I thought it was love wins out ( The whole gay to straight therapy). Meh..

But in all honesty, it is worth acknowledging that this isn't completely a numbers game and that certain things like life experiences and EC's are important. But, we should accept the fact that these things are also important for MD schools as well and they also search for a balanced applicant.

Truth Wins Out is the counter-organization, including Gay rights groups and other medical-related associations.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Truth Wins Out is the counter-organization, including Gay rights groups and other medical-related associations.

Ah, alrighty.

 

[Velocity]

well its my mission. i love the outdoors, hunting, fishing, bonfires, rodeos, horsebackriding, sex outside.

Woah, way to throw that one at the end of the list!

See, I don't think the statement was intended as you've described. If you were to reread his post without "or may not" in it, the post doesn't flow and simply doesn't make sense. A vast majority of the time when people write may or may not they really mean one or the other. Anyway back on topic...

Just to clarify, I didn't mean it one way or the other. My wife and many of my friends are finishing up in MD programs, and many of my wife's classmates will make excellent doctors who I'd certainly consider seeing once they're done with training (depending on the medical area they go into - it's awkward to see people you know for some things...). At the same time, I've met plenty of MD students and licensed MD's who really don't seem doctorly at all, nor do they seem enthused about the profession (many claim they wouldn't do it over again if they had the chance). I know fewer DO's, but I've heard enough stories to know that the latter group exists on the osteopathic side, as well.

Just because I'm a DO student doesn't mean that I have some vendetta against MD students

 

[TriagePreMed]

But could they? I agree that enough students apply with a 3.6/32+ MCAT to DO schools that they could solely accept those with these stats based on the 4K+ applicants. But it's highly unlikely there are enough high stat people who will attend a DO school, as they will likely also have applied to allo schools and gained a few acceptances there with these numbers. So it's not so much about philosophy as much as it is about recruiting those who will likely matriculate.

As much as DO schools want to say they accept students based on fitting their philosophy, stats are very important for a DO schools image and they often insta-accept a higher stat applicant if they apply. Take Nova Southeastern University COM. They had a program this year called the "medical experience program", where if you had a higher MCAT and/or GPA and applied, you were basically recruited by them to the school and guaranteed admission. You didn't even have to do a formal interview- you showed up at the school, they tried to sell the facilities and handed an acceptance to the applicant on a platter. I'm not sure how this program succeeded in actually recruiting the demographic targeted, but I suspect it did not recruit anyone who would not have otherwise attended Nova in a traditional interview cycle.

For the most part supply and demand dictates admissions; a school takes the best applicants it can reasonably get that will actually attend, and an applicant takes the most competitive/prestigious school it can get (with some exceptions). If anything, my example shows that some DO schools can be even more stat conscious than some MD schools, so it really depends on the school.

I don't argue that these schools want to take the best applicants possible and those correlate many times with higher GPAs. I'm just saying that there's more to just high stat people out there. Look at this table:

https://www.aamc.org/download/157450/data/table24-mcatgpagridall2008-10.pdf.pdf

This is for MD colleges. From 3.6+ 30+ roughly 6,000 applicants don't get in at all. There are roughly 5,400 DO seats between all their colleges. It's easy to see that an average of 3.7/32 could artificially be created. If you want to put more pressure on it, say you add everyone with a 3.4+/27 you have 7,000 more applicants for a total of 13,000 high stat people into 5,400 seats. Average would sit, realistically, around a 3.55/29 mcat. See how inflating numbers could be easy? I could go on and add students with a 3.3/36mcat and those with 3.7+/26 MCAT adding a few thousand more students to average around 3.5/30. However, schools like PCOM that get 6k applicants still have a 3.3/25 average. Osteopathic schools are looking for numbers (true), BUT not only numbers.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't argue that these schools want to take the best applicants possible and those correlate many times with higher GPAs. I'm just saying that there's more to just high stat people out there. Look at this table:

https://www.aamc.org/download/157450/data/table24-mcatgpagridall2008-10.pdf.pdf

This is for MD colleges. From 3.6+ 30+ roughly 6,000 applicants don't get in at all. There are roughly 5,400 DO seats between all their colleges. It's easy to see that an average of 3.7/32 could artificially be created. If you want to put more pressure on it, say you add everyone with a 3.4+/27 you have 7,000 more applicants for a total of 13,000 high stat people into 5,400 seats. Average would sit, realistically, around a 3.55/29 mcat. See how inflating numbers could be easy? I could go on and add students with a 3.3/36mcat and those with 3.7+/26 MCAT adding a few thousand more students to average around 3.5/30. However, schools like PCOM that get 6k applicants still have a 3.3/25 average. Osteopathic schools are looking for numbers (true), BUT not only numbers.

Firstly, you're under the impression that those 6000 applied DO and thus could artificially create a DO school average in the 3.6/30's. Secondly, No one is saying this is all a numbers game, you need EC's and a good grasp of where to apply. I would go so far as to say that the MD process is more competitive because it borderline requires a lot more EC's than DO schools to be competitive. PCOM's low stats come from the fact that it has an extremely strong regional bias and it's more 3.5/26.5 now adays and 6k applicants doesn't matter if a lot of them prove to be substandard and thusly below the schools desired numbers.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Firstly, you're under the impression that those 6000 applied DO and thus could artificially create a DO school average in the 3.6/30's. Secondly, No one is saying this is all a numbers game, you need EC's and a good grasp of where to apply. I would go so far as to say that the MD process is more competitive because it borderline requires a lot more EC's than DO schools to be competitive. PCOM's low stats come from the fact that it has an extremely strong regional bias and it's more 3.5/26.5 now adays and 6k applicants doesn't matter if a lot of them prove to be substandard and thusly below the schools desired numbers.

Problem here is that you failed to see what my premise was. It's about how you could inflate through numbers alone. I'm not under any impressions. These are rough numbers to simply show how it's possible to inflate grades. This is why I went through more and more possibilities adding numbers.

As for PCOM, you're right. 3.45/27 http://www.pcom.edu/admissions/adm_faqs/DoFaqs.html. Still, pikeville has some horrible averages.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Problem here is that you failed to see what my premise was. It's about how you could inflate through numbers alone. I'm not under any impressions. These are rough numbers to simply show how it's possible to inflate grades. This is why I went through more and more possibilities adding numbers.

As for PCOM, you're right. 3.45/27 http://www.pcom.edu/admissions/adm_faqs/DoFaqs.html. Still, pikeville has some horrible averages.

I agree with the premise in principle, but disagree in its practicality or application. Consider the concept of an average in regard to this and you'll see that you really can't inflate this all.

[edit] : Theoretical statistics are theoretically painful.

 

[And I Was Like]

Woah, way to throw that one at the end of the list!


Just to clarify, I didn't mean it one way or the other. My wife and many of my friends are finishing up in MD programs, and many of my wife's classmates will make excellent doctors who I'd certainly consider seeing once they're done with training (depending on the medical area they go into - it's awkward to see people you know for some things...). At the same time, I've met plenty of MD students and licensed MD's who really don't seem doctorly at all, nor do they seem enthused about the profession (many claim they wouldn't do it over again if they had the chance). I know fewer DO's, but I've heard enough stories to know that the latter group exists on the osteopathic side, as well.

Just because I'm a DO student doesn't mean that I have some vendetta against MD students

No no no, I know. Some DO students do, however. Then again, some MD students have their head so far up their ass...

Point being, there is really no difference between a DO and MD and saying that one program offers this or looks for that is just BS. DO schools look for the same thing MD schools do, they're just more willing to take students with lower GPAs/MCAT.

/thread.

 

[MedicineMike]

i love all physicians... Except for a recent ophthalmologist i saw. He was an MD/PhD though, and a HUGE *******.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

i love all physicians... Except for a recent ophthalmologist i saw. He was an MD/PhD though, and a HUGE *******.

Very busy man, racking in all that profit from Lasik, you probably distracted him from his golf time!

 

[tbone1234]

Very busy man, racking in all that profit from Lasik, you probably distracted him from his golf time!

Haha, it's funny you mention this. I've been shadowing a DO ophthalmologist for a while now... and he's the most incredible doctor I've ever met (and he hates golf too!), lol.