2013-2014 Underdawgs Thread ( Lets get it)

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Columbia09 said:
Have you guys seen a pattern on this thread with gpas and mcat scores? Do you see more people get in with high gpas and low mcat or is it the other way around ?
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i'd say high MCAT low gpa is a winner (look at freakin MedPR)
 
I would have to agree. High mcat trumps high gpa any day. Mcat is what puts everyone on a level playing field. Measuring degree programs against one another along with difficulty and grade inflation from different schools is impossible. I went to a large state school and graduating with over a 3.5 is virtually impossible. That being said, I had friends that went to smaller private schools where almost everyone graduated with a 3.5 or above. Don't you think it is a little alarming that some people have 4.0 gpas but cant score higher than a 21 on an mcat? Just my two cents.
 
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Lost Vagus said:
I would have to agree. High mcat trumps high gpa any day. Mcat is what puts everyone on a level playing field. Measuring degree programs against one another along with difficulty and grade inflation from different schools is impossible. I went to a large state school and graduating with over a 3.5 is virtually impossible. That being said, I had friends that went to smaller private schools where almost everyone graduated with a 3.5 or above. Don't you think it is a little alarming that some people have 4.0 gpas but cant score higher than a 21 on an mcat? Just my two cents.
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Preach! :naughty:
 
That being said...what would you rather be known for. Being a hard worker in undergrad and a poor test taker or a lazy undergrad and a good test taker. I wish I could substitute a couple of my mcat points for gpa points.
 
I'm planning on applying to about 10-11 schools. It gets so expensive with all the secondaries and the cost of flying to interviews and staying in hotels. Obviously it's a necessary investment and would pay off in the long run. However, you really have to ask yourself if you would truly go to every one of the schools on your list. Seems like a silly question but last year I applied to a few schools just for the sake of trying to get an acceptance but when I got the secondaries I discovered I had no interest in moving 2,000 miles away.
 
Lost Vagus said:
I would have to agree. High mcat trumps high gpa any day. Mcat is what puts everyone on a level playing field. Measuring degree programs against one another along with difficulty and grade inflation from different schools is impossible. I went to a large state school and graduating with over a 3.5 is virtually impossible. That being said, I had friends that went to smaller private schools where almost everyone graduated with a 3.5 or above. Don't you think it is a little alarming that some people have 4.0 gpas but cant score higher than a 21 on an mcat? Just my two cents.
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This...

Also a high MCAT isn't just a good test taker (which makes it sound like some random skill)

It requires:
-high level of reading comprehension
-fast processing of information
-synthesis of new information with old
-comparative analysis of unfamiliar info to familiar
-logical inferences
-systematic process of elimination
-process large amounts of new and unfamiliar info
-large working knowledge base of chem/ochem/physics/bio


It measures a ton of important skill-sets in an imperfect but measurable way.
 
Temperature101 said:
How many secondaries you got? Did you fill out all of them?
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I think I got 21 secondaries, and did all of them except TouroNV. I only didn't do that one because they had a delay and by the time I got theirs I had two acceptances in hand.
 
Lost Vagus said:
I'm planning on applying to about 10-11 schools. It gets so expensive with all the secondaries and the cost of flying to interviews and staying in hotels. Obviously it's a necessary investment and would pay off in the long run. However, you really have to ask yourself if you would truly go to every one of the schools on your list. Seems like a silly question but last year I applied to a few schools just for the sake of trying to get an acceptance but when I got the secondaries I discovered I had no interest in moving 2,000 miles away.
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Underdogs have a chance of getting rejected everywhere so it's a matter of taking ANY acceptance for some of us to save a year of salary later.
 
TwinsFan said:
This...

Also a high MCAT isn't just a good test taker (which makes it sound like some random skill)

It requires:
-high level of reading comprehension
-fast processing of information
-synthesis of new information with old
-comparative analysis of unfamiliar info to familiar
-logical inferences
-systematic process of elimination
-process large amounts of new and unfamiliar info
-large working knowledge base of chem/ochem/physics/bio


It measures a ton of important skill-sets in an imperfect but measurable way.
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I still think it's overweighted. What if something happens on that one day that disrupts your test taking abilities. I met someone in school where his mother past away with breast cancer 2 weeks before taking the exam. Obviously this tragedy is going to have an effect on his test. And as I said before, just like the ACT, standardized tests are very poor indications of success
 
Columbia09 said:
I still think it's overweighted. What if something happens on that one day that disrupts your test taking abilities. I met someone in school where his mother past away with breast cancer 2 weeks before taking the exam. Obviously this tragedy is going to have an effect on his test. And as I said before, just like the ACT, standardized tests are very poor indications of success
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For someone with major life events interfering with the MCAT (which is another major life event that influences your potential future career) they need to postpone. Not doing so is poor judgement. (yes, I get we have all made poor judgements from time to time)

It shouldn't be addressed as a test but as an evaluation of potential and addressed with a much higher level of seriousness and preparation than any test. Doing well doesn't mean you'll do well in medical school, only that you have the intellectual horsepower to do well in medical school (not necessarily the drive or commitment to do well).
 
I don't really think any of those assumptions of the mcat are really scientifically proven. I think the test is a poor measure and continues to worsen in predictability.
 
VinceViegel said:
The MCAT sucks, plain and simple. I think GPA is the best indicator, since consistent hard work is the key to success in medical school. There have been plenty of great doctors that scored less than 20 even.
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My surgeon scored a 21 on his mcat 😛
 
VinceViegel said:
The MCAT sucks, plain and simple. I think GPA is the best indicator, since consistent hard work is the key to success in medical school. There have been plenty of great doctors that scored less than 20 even.
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I think gpa can be a good indicator of a lot of things. But generally I think we should go from standardized testing to more behavioral analysis and interviews.
Either way, the whole thing is a gigantic crapshoot.
 
I may be a minority, but I happen to believe the GPA is the best indicator of success in medical school if you HAD to choose the best indicator.

My friends in medical school have always told me it is an immense amount of work and the GPA is usually an indicator of work put in over 4 years without slipping up. Sure there are cheaters and there are jokingly easy classes for some undergrads and inflated grades, but this is just my two cents because the MCAT can be so variable and may not even represent your actual strength of the subsection.

I can be an example of this because my PS score was luckily higher than practice and my VR score was unluckily lower than practice. I think it just is a luck of the draw with passages thrown at you.

If the MCAT was spread out over a couple days (longer exam), I think it would be a better indication of what you're capable of, but because the sections are only 1-1.5 hours long, not so much.
 
serenade said:
I think gpa can be a good indicator of a lot of things. But generally I think we should go from standardized testing to more behavioral analysis and interviews.
Either way, the whole thing is a gigantic crapshoot.
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This should certainly be a component.


However, gpa can easily be gamed (easy class/school/major etc.) and the mcat can't making it level comparison between applicants. The trouble is when the average applicant is a good student (B+/A-) in typically a science major and they are all competing against each other. Many will be average to slightly below average (22-25) and overall this is still a good student, but by med admissions it is practically a death sentence. To give the greatest chance of success one has to be well above average.

Super basic view of how I see med admissions:
GPA = "hard" work, diligence
MCAT = intellectual potential
ECs = altruism, understanding of profession, commitment, personality
INTERVIEW = social acumen, personality, fit
 
serenade said:
I don't really think any of those assumptions of the mcat are really scientifically proven. I think the test is a poor measure and continues to worsen in predictability.
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Do they need to be? It is kind of experiential common sense that fast info processing, synthesis, analysis, and good reading comprehension are needed to succeed on the MCAT. Other than the small minority who truly "luck out" getting a high score requires these skills.
 
TwinsFan said:
Super basic view of how I see med admissions:
GPA = "hard" work, diligence
MCAT = intellectual potential
ECs = altruism, understanding of profession, commitment, personality
INTERVIEW = social acumen, personality, fit
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👍 I agree with this.
 
TwinsFan said:
This should certainly be a component.


However, gpa can easily be gamed (easy class/school/major etc.) and the mcat can't making it level comparison between applicants. The trouble is when the average applicant is a good student (B+/A-) in typically a science major and they are all competing against each other. Many will be average to slightly below average (22-25) and overall this is still a good student, but by med admissions it is practically a death sentence. To give the greatest chance of success one has to be well above average.

Super basic view of how I see med admissions:
GPA = "hard" work, diligence
MCAT = intellectual potential
ECs = altruism, understanding of profession, commitment, personality
INTERVIEW = social acumen, personality, fit
Click to expand...

A death sentence ? For a 22 to 25 ? Really now?
 
VinceViegel said:
23 or below is a death sentence IMO
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Not necessarily. It depends on many factors (GPA, Post-Bacc, URM, etc...). In fact, a very close friend is starting this coming fall at a "top tier" DO program with 21 on the MCAT.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Not necessarily. It depends on many factors (GPA, Post-Bacc, URM, etc...). In fact, a very close friend is starting this coming fall at a "top tier" DO program with 21 on the MCAT.
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What else did this applicant have going on for him/her?
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
To protect his privacy, I can't go into too much details, but i can tell you he didn't cure cancer. His GPA was above average. He has average EC's.
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That was one of the things going for him. How was his VR score?...I regret not taking my GPA seriously at the beginning... I would rely that much on my mcat score to have a shot....
 
Temperature101 said:
That was one of the things going for him....I regret not taking my GPA seriously at the beginning... I would rely that much on my mcat score to have a shot....
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Yeah he has nothing below B on his transcript, plus his URM status may have helped a little.

I, too, kick myself in the rear everyday for not putting the effort early on in my college career. I transferred out of community college with 3.01 (mostly, ESL and introductory science courses) and was able to bring that GPA up to 3.36 with 5 semesters of hard work at my university. Had my performance been the same throughout my college career, my GPA would be at least 3.65. For that, now I need to worry about scoring above average MCAT to be competitive for schools like CCOM, DMU, and Western.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Yeah he has nothing below B on his transcript, plus his URM status may have helped a little.

I, too, kick myself in the rear everyday for not putting the effort early on in my college career. I transferred out of community college with 3.01 (mostly, ESL and introductory science courses) and was able to bring that GPA up to 3.36 with 5 semesters of hard work at my university. Had my performance been the same throughout my college career, my GPA would be at least 3.65. For that, now I need to worry about scoring above average MCAT to be competitive for schools like CCOM, DMU, and Western.
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You want these top notch DO. None of them will be on my list even if I score above average (28+) in the MCAT. I wan get into ANY school, but It would be dream come true if I got into NOVA
 
Temperature101 said:
You want these top notch DO. None of them will be on my list even if I score above average (28+) in the MCAT. I wan get into ANY school, but It would be dream come true if I got into NOVA
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Well, these schools are dream for me. However, like you, I will go wherever I am accepted. I, too, won't include any of these schools on my AACOMAS if I score below average on the MCAT. It's waste of money.
 
Columbia09 said:
I see a trend where a lot of the people accepted to these schools are double majors
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A lot still meaning the large minority. Does it help a little? Maybe for certain schools. But chances are you'd be just as competitive without. Also, any trend in dual degree acceptances would have to be correlated with a trend in dual degree applications. It may just be due to chance and random distribution, opposed to being of any real benefit.

On another note, I'll throw my stats into this thread once I have my MCAT score.
 
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Columbia09 said:
I see a trend where a lot of the people accepted to these schools are double majors
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Where do you exactly see this? It's probably as worthless a statistic as 66% of music majors get in ( higher than bio and average.)
 
Columbia09 said:
A death sentence ? For a 22 to 25 ? Really now?
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I said "practically" 😉

Keep in mind I mean for the more average applicant and average school, the vast majority of schools are allo and that MCAT score for those schools as well as most older/established/state DO programs outside of URM/legacy/military/special-type applicants is pretty much what I said.


Sorry, I don't mean to be debbi-downer here. I'm rooting for you guys :luck:
 
TwinsFan said:
Do they need to be? It is kind of experiential common sense that fast info processing, synthesis, analysis, and good reading comprehension are needed to succeed on the MCAT. Other than the small minority who truly "luck out" getting a high score requires these skills.
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Yes, you do, all testing needs to prove validity to really say it does what it does ( ex. Psychological tests or even Biochemical tests).
Also common sense is just a set of prejudices we gain before age 18 ( Albert Einstein). Simply put just because something makes sense or is common sense rarely means that it is right. That why science is a peer reviewed field, things are rarely great and always can be improved upon.

So yes, I'm doubtful that the mcat is an indicator of intellectual potential. It was never designed for such and does not ask questions that really probe for the ability to learn quickly and synthesis information except for the verbal section, which may test lightly for intelligence.

So Tl;DR
This is science and verbal may be able to probe slightly for intelligence, but the other two sections likely are insensitive.
 
There's a later meta analysis that disproves the mcats predictive validity.
 
So do you think it will hurt my application if I only shadowed a month before applying?
 
Hey triage, are you applying to more schools this cycle? Applying June 1st right?
 
serenade said:
So do you think it will hurt my application if I only shadowed a month before applying?
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I don't think it's that big of a deal, although I don't think it will be an outstanding letter. Won't help/won't hurt kind of thing.
 
serenade said:
So do you think it will hurt my application if I only shadowed a month before applying?
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I'm in the same boat. I started shadowing a D.O. this month, and debating whether or not to even ask her for a letter.

Only one of the schools I'm applying to requires a D.O. letter, and I believe they'll interview me without one.
 
serenade said:
Yes, you do, all testing needs to prove validity to really say it does what it does ( ex. Psychological tests or even Biochemical tests).
Also common sense is just a set of prejudices we gain before age 18 ( Albert Einstein). Simply put just because something makes sense or is common sense rarely means that it is right. That why science is a peer reviewed field, things are rarely great and always can be improved upon.

So yes, I'm doubtful that the mcat is an indicator of intellectual potential. It was never designed for such and does not ask questions that really probe for the ability to learn quickly and synthesis information except for the verbal section, which may test lightly for intelligence.

So Tl;DR
This is science and verbal may be able to probe slightly for intelligence, but the other two sections likely are insensitive.
Click to expand...

So you're saying without a peer reviewed scientific study no one can say the MCAT requires a significant level of reading comprehension, fast processing of information, synthesis of new information with old, comparative analysis of unfamiliar info to familiar, logical inferences, systematic process of elimination, processing of large amounts of new and unfamiliar info, or a large working knowledge base of chem/ochem/physics/bio?

Anyone who has taken it can tell you that on some level these skills are required. And some of these skills are markers for/go hand in hand with part of what many consider "intelligence." Yes, there are other components. No, I don't want to debate cultural bias in intelligence testing or exactly what the best definition of intelligence is. It seems like any time the "I" word is thrown around hysteria ensues.

At what level or how repeatable at what level is what the scientific testing could help reveal and is certainly up for debate. It is definitely not the end all or maybe even a "good" absolute test by scientific standards. But given the skills required to succeed on it, it seems to have the "intellectual potential" measurement covered a lot better than GPA. And from what I gather admissions committees tend to think along the same lines.
 
UCFMD said:
I'm in the same boat. I started shadowing a D.O. this month, and debating whether or not to even ask her for a letter.

Only one of the schools I'm applying to requires a D.O. letter, and I believe they'll interview me without one.
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You should get the letter.
 
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