2013-2014 Underdawgs Thread ( Lets get it)

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Jamie407 said:
Not sure if this is too UD or not, but hopefully will give some hope to anyone in a similar situation!...

Accepted at VCOM-CC
24 MCAT - 10 10 4 (4 verbal)
cGPA 3.32
sGPA around 3.65

best of luck to all those out there.. Didn't think i'd get any love applying in late october with a 4 in verbal, but things turned out ok in the end!
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Jamie407,

Congrats on your acceptance! Told you things would workout in the end 😉
 
Jamie407 said:
Not sure if this is too UD or not, but hopefully will give some hope to anyone in a similar situation!...

Accepted at VCOM-CC
24 MCAT - 10 10 4 (4 verbal)
cGPA 3.32
sGPA around 3.65

best of luck to all those out there.. Didn't think i'd get any love applying in late october with a 4 in verbal, but things turned out ok in the end!
Click to expand...


I guess the 4-5 VR rule of SDN members regarding D.O. admission goes straight out of the window... Anyway, I never believed a 5 VR score would put someone out of the running for many schools, but I must admit that I thought it would be hard to get accepted into D.O. school with a 4 in VR... From what I see is that: if your overall score is good enough (>=24), you will find a school that will take a chance on you even if your VR score is 4-5... Many are getting D.O. acceptances with 4-5 in VR, and 6-7 even on the M.D. side.

Edit: I remember when Jamie407 posted in the WAMC forum, only user3 said that he/she got a chance. Again user3 is right when it comes to make these predictions...
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I guess the 4-5 VR rule of SDN members regarding D.O. admission goes straight out of the window... Anyway, I never believed a 5 VR score would put someone out of the running for many schools, but I must admit that I thought it would be hard to get accepted into D.O. school with a 4 in VR... From what I see is that: if your overall score is good enough (>=24), you will find a school that will take a chance on you even if your VR score is 4-5... Many are getting D.O. acceptances with 4-5 in VR, and 6-7 even on the M.D. side.

Edit: I remember when Jamie407 posted in the WAMC forum, only user3 said that he/she got a chance. Again user3 is right when it comes to make these predictions...
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Doesn't go out the window except for VCOM-CC. Sometimes it's scary how embarrassing some of the scores that get into med school are. Personally, I think 25 should be the minimum MCAT for all schools with no section under 6.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Doesn't go out the window except for VCOM-CC. Sometimes it's scary how embarrassing some of the scores that get into med school are. Personally, I think 25 should be the minimum MCAT for all schools with no section under 6.
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Honestly I'd have to agree with this
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Doesn't go out the window except for VCOM-CC. Sometimes it's scary how embarrassing some of the scores that get into med school are. Personally, I think 25 should be the minimum MCAT for all schools with no section under 6.
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I agree. Some people say that they are really bad test takers but why would they still enter a field that place so much importance on exams.
 
bionerd89 said:
I agree. Some people say that they are really bad test takers but why would they still enter a field that place so much importance on exams.
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I think its the generalization and trivial nature of the MCAT those people are referring to (the same with other standardized test like the GRE, ACT and SAT). Where your board exams will be a tad more focused and less trivial (from what I've seen on shelf exams at least ). Some people just do better on exams like that.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the MCAT for what it assesses about a future medical student however I don't think a 25 is a good cut off. Someone with a 24 (8s across the board) maybe be more suited to be a physician than someone with a 38. IMO of course
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Doesn't go out the window except for VCOM-CC. Sometimes it's scary how embarrassing some of the scores that get into med school are. Personally, I think 25 should be the minimum MCAT for all schools with no section under 6.
Click to expand...
Seriously! Look at the school specific threads... There are few applicants that got in LMU, ACOM with 4 in VR... I know someone who got into Nova with a 5... There are anecdotes of applicants who got into ACOM, WCUCOM with even a 3 in VR. I am wondering why would you set it to 25 when there are US M.D. schools that have 20-22 average MCAT.
 
iTcanBdone said:
I think its the generalization and trivial nature of the MCAT those people are referring to (the same with other standardized test like the GRE, ACT and SAT). Where your board exams will be a tad more focused and less trivial (from what I've seen on shelf exams at least ). Some people just do better on exams like that.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the MCAT for what it assesses about a future medical student however I don't think a 25 is a good cut off. Someone with a 24 (8s across the board) maybe be more suited to be a physician than someone with a 38. IMO of course
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I would even go a step further by saying anyone who can score a 8+ in BS has the potential to do well on Step1... The PS/VR sections of the MCAT are somewhat useless IMO.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Seriously! Look at the school specific threads... There are few applicants that got in LMU, ACOM with 4 in VR... I know someone who got into Nova with a 5... There are anecdotes of applicants who got into ACOM, WCUCOM with even a 3 in VR. I am wondering why would you set it to 25 when there are US M.D. schools that have 20-22 average MCAT.
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That is exactly what they are, anecdotes. Need to have some better statistical evidence if you're going to argue the point. You're also talking about new schools with are going to have somewhat lower stats for admissions purely because of their selection population available. And just out of curiosity, what MD schools are we discussing with such a low MCAT average? Are they known for URM admissions? That throws another curveball into your speculations.

Furthermore, while a low VR score isn't necessarily a killer it does raise some questions. Granted there are special circumstances like ESL and things along those lines, but those individuals are most likely more than competent scientifically to succeed as a physician and their VR score isn't an indication of their inability to problem solve, they are simply stacked against a language and writing style they are nowhere near as familiar with as we are. I would venture to say a 25 is a solid cut-off for MCAT performance. And then you jump to speculating about purely the Biological Sciences section.

However, in summary, these are all opinions, which we are all entitled to, but that doesn't make all of them correct.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Puerto Rican MD schools....
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Not at all an issue, but those are special circumstances as well. I applaud your positivity for those Hail Marys that inevitably happen, but I think for the majority of individuals a healthy dose of reality is also needed every once in a while.

And just as a side note:

A healthy debate about a worthwhile topic sharpens the mind. Not at all an attack or anything of that sort here.
 
Don't
iTcanBdone said:
I think its the generalization and trivial nature of the MCAT those people are referring to (the same with other standardized test like the GRE, ACT and SAT). Where your board exams will be a tad more focused and less trivial (from what I've seen on shelf exams at least ). Some people just do better on exams like that.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the MCAT for what it assesses about a future medical student however I don't think a 25 is a good cut off. Someone with a 24 (8s across the board) maybe be more suited to be a physician than someone with a 38. IMO of course
Click to expand...

I agree, 8s across the board is pretty solid IMO. However, I still think there should be a subsection cutoff.
 
serenade said:
Again, try to take a timed exam in Spanish as an English speaker and tell me how well you do... Legit I speak many languages fluently but god knows if I was tested in any of them other than English I'd score an 18 tops.
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I agree. They just aren't on equal footing, but there are people here with a 5 and are native speakers?
 
serenade said:
Again, try to take a timed exam in Spanish as an English speaker and tell me how well you do... Legit I speak many languages fluently but god knows if I was tested in any of them other than English I'd score an 18 tops.
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The argument was about VR being so important to someone to be able to navigate thru med school and do well on the board...

JPickos9989 said:
Not at all an issue, but those are special circumstances as well. I applaud your positivity for those Hail Marys that inevitably happen, but I think for the majority of individuals a healthy dose of reality is also needed every once in a while.

And just as a side note:

A healthy debate about a worthwhile topic sharpens the mind. Not at all an attack or anything of that sort here.
Click to expand...
That was not a Hail Marys... You were saying that 25 should be the minimum cut off and I gave you stats of schools that have <25 average and produce competent physicians... Why you say PR MD schools is a special case? You also think there should be cut off (6 minimum)...Lets say you have two students with same overall mcat scores: One has 10PS/5VR/12BS and the other one has 7/13/7, assuming everything else is equal, would you pick the latter one over the former.
 
Best, even Goro posted that he's uncomfortable taking people with below 25s because he believes they are at enhanced risk of deceleration or other things. This is not just me talking, this is an adcom talking.

7/13/7 v.s 10/5/12?

I'm inclined to take the former. But again, my background is in psychology and I studied psychological testing. I believe that a test that doesn't bring in outside information is more informative than one that does.


And I just told you... there's a difference in the test taking population. I'm sorry, but didn't you cover this in like intro psych or soc?
 
serenade said:
7/13/7 v.s 10/5/12?

I'm inclined to take the former. But again, my background is in psychology and I studied psychological testing. I believe that a test that doesn't bring in outside information is more informative than one that does.
And I just told you... there's a difference in the test taking population. I'm sorry, but didn't you cover this in like intro psych or soc?
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Seriously! I would call that BULL... I guess when taking Step1/2/3, one does not need outside info... Physicians won't need outside info when making diagnosis
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Seriously! I would call that BULL... I guess when taking Step1/2/3, one does not need outside info... Physicians won't need outside info when making diagnosis
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Steps are designed to test your competence with medicine.
Mcat is designed to test your competence with medical school.

But again, I think the Verbal is a very informative part of the test. Bio is informative also. PS is weird.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
The argument was about VR being so important to someone to be able to navigate thru med school and do well on the board...


That was not a Hail Marys... You were saying that 25 should be the minimum cut off and I gave you stats of schools that have <25 average and produce competent physicians... Why you say PR MD schools is a special case? You also think there should be cut off (6 minimum)...Lets say you have two students with same overall mcat scores: One has 10PS/5VR/12BS and the other one has 7/13/7, assuming everything else is equal, would you pick the latter one over the former.
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You're quite the fan of completely hypothetical situations. And Puerto Rican MD schools are a Hail Mary pass in and of themselves for that matter. Are they a completely viable option? Certainly. Do you have a lot more to prove if you're trying to match from them? I would venture to say so. And if we are going to play the hypothetical game? What are the backgrounds of each applicant? GPA's? Research? EC's? Adcoms don't make any decision based on MCAT alone. And also, I said nothing about a minimum cut off. However, VR scores below a 6 could be given different scrutiny (hypothetically speaking if the other sections are in a good range).

I can come up with all the hypothetical situations I want to somehow argue against a point. But reliable statistics are your only avenue for a solid argument. The conversation changes completely when you show a significant amount of applicants (non-anecdotal evidence) getting into quality institutions (accredited with a history and more than just a few classes graduated) with low VR scores in your range of 3-5. A small range, but so be it. Also bring with that the ethnicities of the applicants and their GPA's. Too many factors to rely on one number alone.
 
JPickos9989 said:
You're quite the fan of completely hypothetical situations. And Puerto Rican MD schools are a Hail Mary pass in and of themselves for that matter. Are they a completely viable option? Certainly. Do you have a lot more to prove if you're trying to match from them? I would venture to say so. And if we are going to play the hypothetical game? What are the backgrounds of each applicant? GPA's? Research? EC's? Adcoms don't make any decision based on MCAT alone. And also, I said nothing about a minimum cut off. However, VR scores below a 6 could be given different scrutiny (hypothetically speaking if the other sections are in a good range).

I can come up with all the hypothetical situations I want to somehow argue against a point. But reliable statistics are your only avenue for a solid argument. The conversation changes completely when you show a significant amount of applicants (non-anecdotal evidence) getting into quality institutions (accredited with a history and more than just a few classes graduated) with low VR scores in your range of 3-5. A small range, but so be it. Also bring with that the ethnicities of the applicants and their GPA's. Too many factors to rely on one number alone.
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Puerto Rican students have a lot more to prove when they are trying to match??? They are US MD schools just like any other mainland MD school... I guess you can say the same for any other mainland schools that are at the bottom of the ranking system (We all have something to prove against our competitor when it comes to the match). I bet you PDs will look at applicants from Harvard and FIU thru different lenses...... Of course we all are dealing with hypothetical here since you and I don't have the stats to back our claims...
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Puerto Rican students have a lot more to prove when they are trying to match??? They are US MD schools just like any other mainland MD school... I guess you can say the same for any other mainland schools that are at the bottom of the ranking system (We all have something to prove against our competitor when it comes to the match). I bet you PDs will look at applicants from Harvard and FIU thru different lenses...... Of course we all are dealing with hypothetical here since you and I don't have the stats to back our claims...
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Puerto Rico...an island....many many miles away from the US. Primary language spoken: Spanish. Is it a unique opportunity? I bet. Is the weather nice? Guaranteed. Are you going to get a better education? All speculation (although one of the schools losing LCME accreditation in previous years is alarming, however, that is information pulled from a previous thread and at 12:30 am I'm not fond of in depth research into the topic). All I'm saying is your education may be a little biased in PR considering the geographical situation and many other factors related such a school. All speculation here as I don't know a single person who went to PR for medical school. Only a doctor I shadowed who told me to avoid Caribbean at all costs.

There is no doubt that after getting into school where you go and how far is pretty much all on you. And of course people from such different schools as Harvard and FIU are going to be viewed differently. Sociology and Psychology 100 will inform you of that. I'm not sure what we are discussing with that topic. And let's face it, after acceptance, nobody gives two ***** about your MCAT score. Except for maybe gunners? And I don't believe I've made very many concrete claims, but the proof of the significant numbers of low VR applicants being accepted would be an interesting find.
 
Jamie407 said:
Not sure if this is too UD or not, but hopefully will give some hope to anyone in a similar situation!...

Accepted at VCOM-CC
24 MCAT - 10 10 4 (4 verbal)
cGPA 3.32
sGPA around 3.65

best of luck to all those out there.. Didn't think i'd get any love applying in late october with a 4 in verbal, but things turned out ok in the end!
Click to expand...

Congratulations on your acceptance!
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Most people would... I guess only serenade would take 7/13/7 over 10/5/12...
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The problem is that in real life that rarely happens and most candidates would retake. Your argument can then be extended to everything. Why a 3.0 cut off? There have been competent doctors with less. Some arbitrary line has to be made, and in this case there is data that says people with 24 or less has difficulty with boards
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
The problem is that in real life that rarely happens and most candidates would retake. Your argument can then be extended to everything. Why a 3.0 cut off? There have been competent doctors with less. Some arbitrary line has to be made, and in this case there is data that says people with 24 or less has difficulty with boards
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I agree with you. This makes sense and I'm pretty sure most adcoms use this line of reasoning for the bulk of their decisions. However, like stated above, there is a lot more to an applicants profile than their MCAT. A lot of which can't be quantified or standardized.

DO schools get lots of people applying with MCATs above 24 but still find their schools being used as "safety nets". They lose a lot of their preferred applicants to MD schools, leaving them to value other areas in their applicants applications which results in people with below 25 getting a chance.

So until DO programs see a huge upswing in the competitiveness of their applicants numbers (and those people staying in the DO programs), those cutoffs are just going to remain "ideal". They are going to do what they have to, to fill seats.
 
iTcanBdone said:
I agree with you. This makes sense and I'm pretty sure most adcoms use this line of reasoning for the bulk of their decisions. However, like stated above, there is a lot more to an applicants profile than their MCAT. A lot of which can't be quantified or standardized.

DO schools get lots of people applying with MCATs above 24 but still find their schools being used as "safety nets". They lose a lot of their preferred applicants to MD schools, leaving them to value other areas in their applicants applications which results in people with below 25 getting a chance.

So until DO programs see a huge upswing in the competitiveness of their applicants numbers (and those people staying in the DO programs), those cutoffs are just going to remain "ideal". They are going to do what they have to, to fill seats.
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Touro Nevada already has this policy and hasn't had trouble recruiting people. The same goes for Western that requires a minimum of 24 to be considered. I think there are statistics out there backing that there would still be a healthy applicant pool even if putting minimums, except perhaps for the bottom 5 Osteopathic Schools.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Touro Nevada already has this policy and hasn't had trouble recruiting people. The same goes for Western that requires a minimum of 24 to be considered. I think there are statistics out there backing that there would still be a healthy applicant pool even if putting minimums, except perhaps for the bottom 5 Osteopathic Schools.
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Touro Nv and Western swallow the entire California/ west coast game. They have no issues filling up with competitive students who didn't get into Uc.
 
serenade said:
Touro Nv and Western swallow the entire California/ west coast game. They have no issues filling up with competitive students who didn't get into Uc.
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Idk about touro-nv...they seem to interview almost everyone that meets their minimums (3.0/25)
 
BestDoctorEver said:
?Maybe 27... 28 seems too high.
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Not really. Touro-nv is a small school and it's close to Cali. And you're not going to have to move around much for rotations.
But honestly a 28 for a non-new school is not all that surprising nor is it all that high. It's a pretty average score for people who want to stay in the area.
 
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