[2016-2017] Emergency Medicine Rank Order List Thread

[David Mitchell]

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[gamerEMdoc]

I'm DO and understand. I have boards + research + "interesting extracurriculars" that line up with the people on this page that score 20-30 interviews but fell way short of what I expected. It is what it is.


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For IMGs, the bias is way worse than do's. They'll get sloes that are honors where only 10-20 percent get honors on rotation and still get a "low 1/3".

Part of the issue is, most of the SLOES that I have seen from an IMG usually come from university-based programs. I'm not sure how they secure these rotations, it may be an arrangement with their individual schools. But it's very obvious that these programs don't rank IMGs, when they have students who are being graded in the top 15% of candidates still being marked as low third ranking.

I'm not diminishing the bias against DOs, I just think its worse for IMGs. They really should be targeting community EM residencies that have matched IMGs in the past, much like DOs target programs that have a decent DO percentage in their classes.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

For IMGs, the bias is way worse than do's. They'll get sloes that are honors where only 10-20 percent get honors on rotation and still get a "low 1/3".

Part of the issue is, most of the SLOES that I have seen from an IMG usually come from university-based programs. I'm not sure how they secure these rotations, it may be an arrangement with their individual schools. But it's very obvious that these programs don't rank IMGs, when they have students who are being graded in the top 15% of candidates still being marked as low third ranking.

I'm not diminishing the bias against DOs, I just think its worse for IMGs. They really should be targeting community EM residencies that have matched IMGs in the past, much like DOs target programs that have a decent DO percentage in their classes.

But it's hard for students to know these things as MS3s, particularly if you're an IMG at a school which may or may not have good EM advising. From a student's perspective, being offered an away elective at a University program gives the impression that they're at least somewhat interested in interviewing and ranking us as applicants, and a SLOE from a well-respected university program in theory would carry weight and open doors for more interviews at similar programs, so I totally understand why many IMGs would try to snag rotations at university programs.

If a program doesn't rank IMGs or DOs, then it should offer them away clerkships either. It's a waste of the applicant's time since they could be building more fruitful connections elsewhere and takes a spot away from a student who they would consider interviewing and ranking.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

But it's hard for students to know these things as MS3s, particularly if you're an IMG at a school which may or may not have good EM advising. From a student's perspective, being offered an away elective at a University program gives the impression that they're at least somewhat interested in interviewing and ranking us as applicants, and a SLOE from a well-respected university program in theory would carry weight and open doors for more interviews at similar programs, so I totally understand why many IMGs would try to snag rotations at university programs.

I totally agree. You'd think rotating at a more prestigous place would help. But in a world where SLOEs are king and "low 1/3" SLOEs can be a kiss of death, choosing where to rotate is very, very important.

 

[EMPertinent]

I totally agree. You'd think rotating at a more prestigous place would help. But in a world where SLOEs are king and "low 1/3" SLOEs can be a kiss of death, choosing where to rotate is very, very important.

That seems terribly unfair. Do SLOE writers routinely give students who've honored a rotation the low 1/3rd designation?

 

[CliveStaples]

That seems terribly unfair. Do SLOE writers routinely give students who've honored a rotation the low 1/3rd designation?

There's a portion of the letter that asks the program where they anticipate ranking an applicant on their match list. It's entirely possible that a program can think an applicant has a lot of promising skills (and subsequently give them top 1/3 in many categories) but then decide that either A) the applicant isn't a good fit for their program, even with all their promising skills, or B) the applicant based on their IMG status is going to be ranked lower regardless of their rotation performance.

So if you see an IMG who "rocks" a rotation and gets a positive sounding SLOE but then the question that asks where they'll be ranked is "bottom 1/3" then it's safe to say that program likely has a policy against ranking IMGs highly or at all.

 

[EMPertinent]

There's a portion of the letter that asks the program where they anticipate ranking an applicant on their match list. It's entirely possible that a program can think an applicant has a lot of promising skills (and subsequently give them top 1/3 in many categories) but then decide that either A) the applicant isn't a good fit for their program, even with all their promising skills, or B) the applicant based on their IMG status is going to be ranked lower regardless of their rotation performance.

So if you see an IMG who "rocks" a rotation and gets a positive sounding SLOE but then the question that asks where they'll be ranked is "bottom 1/3" then it's safe to say that program likely has a policy against ranking IMGs highly or at all.

But if saying that an otherwise stellar rotator is likely to be at the bottom of rank list is a death knell to their residency candidacy (which is what @gamerEMdoc implied), then why do it? I understand that there is very real institutional bias against IMGs, and to a certain extent DOs, but SLOEs should reflect EM aptitude as objectively as possible. IMHO, it's bullsh*t.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

But if saying that an otherwise stellar rotator is likely to be at the bottom of rank list is a death knell to their residency candidacy (which is what @gamerEMdoc implied), then why do it? I understand that there is very real institutional bias against IMGs, and to a certain extent DOs, but SLOEs should reflect EM aptitude as objectively as possible. IMHO, it's bullsh*t.

"How highly would you estimate the candidate will reside on your rank list?"

Emphasis my own. The SLOE is not your buddy, pal. Not answering truthfully flies in the face of the entire point of the SLOE.

 

[RPedigo]

That seems terribly unfair. Do SLOE writers routinely give students who've honored a rotation the low 1/3rd designation?

There are two parts to the SLOE ranking -- first is "compared to other EM residency candidates you have recommended in the last academic year, this candidate is in the..." top 10%, top 1/3, middle 1/3, and bottom 1/3. We typically place students in these categories based solely on their subinternship performance. The subsequent question is "how highly would you estimate the candidate will reside on your rank list?" These two questions are asking different questions. It is very possible that someone will be top 1/3 for subinternship performance and middle 1/3 or even lower 1/3 for rank list, depending on the rest of their application and fit for the program. For instance, if I have an above-average rotating student (let's say top 1/3 on evaluations) who failed the boards twice and has no extracurricular activities, they may be top 1/3 for subinternship performance and bottom 1/3 for rank list. This is why doing rotations at places that are good fits for your application is the best idea. I get students each year who want to do an away rotation with us who, even if they were the best subintern of the year, would be unlikely to match with us because of the strength of the rest of their application. I try to suggest alternative places to rotate for those applicants, because it is not in their best interest to spend their time rotating at a site they will not be competitive to match at.

To answer your quoted question much more directly: I would never give a student who honored the rotation a lower 1/3 designation for subinternship performance (or obviously they would never have achieved honors), but based on the factors I outlined above, it would be possible that they would be lower 1/3 rank list.

 

[Babycatsinabag]

I totally agree. You'd think rotating at a more prestigous place would help. But in a world where SLOEs are king and "low 1/3" SLOEs can be a kiss of death, choosing where to rotate is very, very important.

I agree. I rotated at one of the top county programs, and let's just say that they have higher expectations. I was lucky it was my third and last rotation, so I had some confidence, a bit more knowledge, but even then it is intimidating to rotate alongside 15 other really great applicants from awesome places. We are compared to one another at the end of the day, so the whole process of aways and applications has to be quite strategic.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I agree its terribly unfair to get a low 1/3 despite doing well on rotation. Which is why I pointed it out, so people could realize this can happen. If a place is not IMG friendly (or DO friendly), and doesnt have a single IMG (or DO) on their resident list, its probably not going to be in someones best interest to rotate there for a SLOE. It may not be fair, but that is the question the SLOE asks, where do you anticipate ranking the student. If a place doesnt rank IMGs or DOs, then Id stear clear.

 

[zyx189]

Good god, the more I come on this thread, the more I freak out... c'mon Monday

 

[SamtheWise]

Every time I see someone rank my #1 highly I wince. I know I shouldn't, BUT IT HAPPENS. I am an imperfect person.

 

[doggydog]

Removed upon request.

 

[doggydog]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: 210s, Step 2: 220s
EM rotations: H/H
Medical school region: Mid-Atlantic
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Prior EMS experience. Applied late, missed the first round of interviews. That definitely hurt me.

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
Fit, location, 8s and 9s over 12s.

1) Hackensack -
Great PD, location right by the George Washington Bridge. Residents seemed friendly and happy. ED is bright and clean.

2) SUNY Upstate -
Syracuse isn't great, but by far the best PD I've met on the trail. 8 hr shifts, happy residents, huge catchment area, EM seems well respected in the hospital.

3) UF Gainesville -
Gainesville seems like a really nice, clean place to live. Happy residents, great academics, really nice ED. Good weather, at least during the winter.

4) Stony Brook -
Honestly the only downside was location, way out on Long Island in the middle of nowhere. Otherwise amazing didactics and faculty, tight-knit group of residents, excellent critical care exposure. Mostly 9 hr shifts.

5) Staten Island -
PD interview was strange, felt like I was talking to someone manic or high on cocaine. 12 hour shifts, cramped ED, mediocre location. The pay is really good here though.

6) UCF -
Only one class of residents so far, and I wasn't impressed with them. I don't remember seeing the PD on my interview day, not sure if he was there or not. They took us on a tour of their med school campus, which was beautiful but had nothing to do with the EM residency from what I could tell. All 12 hr shifts. Just didn't feel comfortable here.

7) Brooklyn Hospital -
Would have loved to skip this interview but I didn't have enough invites. Crazy high COL, 4th year seems useless, faculty are all brand new after multiple PD and staff changes over the last few years. Residents didn't seem at all excited to be there. The intern giving us a tour didn't even want to show us the ED, we had to ask him to. The program seemed a mess.

 

[doggydog]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: >255, Step 2: >265, COMLEX: >755/>900
EM rotations: H/HP?/H
Medical school region: Midwest
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Top 10% of Class, Honors in most of 3rd year clerkships, prior work in the emergency department, heard I had good comments on SLOE's

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
geography, fit, 3>4 years were most important. Cost of living and benefits helped me weigh programs that I my mind were equals when it came to training. In the end, I applied broadly to cities I'd be happy to live in that were DO friendly. Got lucky that I was able to be picky about where to interview.

1) University of Arizona- Main Campus -
Pros: Big university program with all that brings. Good critical care exposure with possibility of staying to do a fellowship. ⅓ of time at South Campus, which I felt would fill in some of the training gaps at the main site. Decent peds exposure. Nice faculty and residents. Seemed like a good place for families.

Cons: didn't love Tucson, but I really loved Arizona as a whole.

2) Indiana -
Pros: Old, prestigious program. Great university and county experience. COL really good for family. Great benefits. Emergency medicine seems to be THE program in Indianapolis. Residents were great and I loved that they were not only willing to come to the interview dinner, but they were also willing to drive you. This said a lot about them/the program.

Cons: cold, not a huge fan of the midwest. Big program.

3) UTSW -
Pros: facilities, large volume, great peds experience, tons of resources available, high salary, jobs in Texas after residency.

Cons: trauma was weak (commute to Fort Worth for trauma rotations), maybe too busy? (if thats really such a thing), not excited about Dallas traffic, $500/month for family health insurance

4) Maricopa -
Pros: great trauma (switch off with surgery for procedures), sick patients, nice PD.

Cons: "county" facilities, questionable strength of off-service rotations, many different sites, poor relationship with Phoenix children"s at the moment, wasn't super impressed by the resident dinner/lunch (may have been a fluke), Phoenix traffic.

5) University of Utah -
Pros: location, Intermountain Medical Center rotations seemed really great, orthopedic ski clinic.

Cons: didn't mesh well with residents/faculty, they seem to be a little "stuck up", low volume/acuity at main ED

6) Baylor
7) UC-Davis
8) JPS
9) UT-Houston
10) UNM
11) University of Arizona - South
12) Cook County
13) UIC
14) UNLV

Other:
I applied to a 44 programs, which were a mix of "DO friendly" and reach programs. 24 invites. Got lots of love from the ones who've taken DO's in the past. Not so much from others.

Interview declined: Hennepin, VCU, Case Western/MetroHealth, Grand Rapids, Albert Einstein Philly, UMKC, University of Kansas- Kansas City, UI- Peoria, Christus, UTSA

Waitlisted: Maryland, Stanford

Rejected or no contact: Couple of random east and west coast programs plus some of the bigger name programs like Cincinnati, Denver, Vandy, Emory. Nothing heartbreaking or surprising there.

 

[Apollyon]

Rest of List:
(not in order) Cincinnati, U Arizona South, U Arizona, UConn, UC Riverside, Wash U St. Louis, UT Houston

Why bother? Why waste your time? Not "cool", not "edgy", not funny. Not a list. Just a jumbled mess. What you posted is half done. More than one person has ranked Cinci or U of A first. There is no reasonable reason why you would mix up half of your list.

 

[jessk2015]

Why bother? Why waste your time? Not "cool", not "edgy", not funny. Not a list. Just a jumbled mess. What you posted is half done. More than one person has ranked Cinci or U of A first. There is no reasonable reason why you would mix up half of your list.

I think at this point people are just doing it to troll you.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted245139]

^ gotta say, I agree with Apollyon. Is this person trying to say that a program would have been deeply offended seeing they were 12 on that list, and not 11 or higher? I think the applicant pool would benefit from hearing why a highly touted program was dropped lower. Preference, location, interactions, etc. I dunno... Seems like a good amount of effort goes into these lists, and then the back end is dumped. Why?

 

[MelMcT2009]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: >255, Step 2: >265, COMLEX: >755/>900
EM rotations: H/HP?/H
Medical school region: Midwest
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Top 10% of Class, Honors in most of 3rd year clerkships, prior work in the emergency department, heard I had good comments on SLOE's

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
geography, fit, 3>4 years were most important. Cost of living and benefits helped me weigh programs that I my mind were equals when it came to training. In the end, I applied broadly to cities I'd be happy to live in that were DO friendly. Got lucky that I was able to be picky about where to interview.

1) University of Arizona- Main Campus -
Pros: Big university program with all that brings. Good critical care exposure with possibility of staying to do a fellowship. ⅓ of time at South Campus, which I felt would fill in some of the training gaps at the main site. Decent peds exposure. Nice faculty and residents. Seemed like a good place for families.

Cons: didn't love Tucson, but I really loved Arizona as a whole.

2) Indiana -
Pros: Old, prestigious program. Great university and county experience. COL really good for family. Great benefits. Emergency medicine seems to be THE program in Indianapolis. Residents were great and I loved that they were not only willing to come to the interview dinner, but they were also willing to drive you. This said a lot about them/the program.

Cons: cold, not a huge fan of the midwest. Big program.

3) UTSW -
Pros: facilities, large volume, great peds experience, tons of resources available, high salary, jobs in Texas after residency.

Cons: trauma was weak (commute to Fort Worth for trauma rotations), maybe too busy? (if thats really such a thing), not excited about Dallas traffic, $500/month for family health insurance

4) Maricopa -
Pros: great trauma (switch off with surgery for procedures), sick patients, nice PD.

Cons: "county" facilities, questionable strength of off-service rotations, many different sites, poor relationship with Phoenix children"s at the moment, wasn't super impressed by the resident dinner/lunch (may have been a fluke), Phoenix traffic.

5) University of Utah -
Pros: location, Intermountain Medical Center rotations seemed really great, orthopedic ski clinic.

Cons: didn't mesh well with residents/faculty, they seem to be a little "stuck up", low volume/acuity at main ED

6) Baylor
7) UC-Davis
8) JPS
9) UT-Houston
10) UNM
11) University of Arizona - South
12) Cook County
13) UIC
14) UNLV

Other:
I applied to a 44 programs, which were a mix of "DO friendly" and reach programs. 24 invites. Got lots of love from the ones who've taken DO's in the past. Not so much from others.

Interview declined: Hennepin, VCU, Case Western/MetroHealth, Grand Rapids, Albert Einstein Philly, UMKC, University of Kansas- Kansas City, UI- Peoria, Christus, UTSA

Waitlisted: Maryland, Stanford

Rejected or no contact: Couple of random east and west coast programs plus some of the bigger name programs like Cincinnati, Denver, Vandy, Emory. Nothing heartbreaking or surprising there.

I'd appreciate it if the person who this list belongs to would PM me!

 

[MelMcT2009]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: >255, Step 2: >265, COMLEX: >755/>900
EM rotations: H/HP?/H
Medical school region: Midwest
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Top 10% of Class, Honors in most of 3rd year clerkships, prior work in the emergency department, heard I had good comments on SLOE's

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
geography, fit, 3>4 years were most important. Cost of living and benefits helped me weigh programs that I my mind were equals when it came to training. In the end, I applied broadly to cities I'd be happy to live in that were DO friendly. Got lucky that I was able to be picky about where to interview.

1) University of Arizona- Main Campus -
Pros: Big university program with all that brings. Good critical care exposure with possibility of staying to do a fellowship. ⅓ of time at South Campus, which I felt would fill in some of the training gaps at the main site. Decent peds exposure. Nice faculty and residents. Seemed like a good place for families.

Cons: didn't love Tucson, but I really loved Arizona as a whole.

2) Indiana -
Pros: Old, prestigious program. Great university and county experience. COL really good for family. Great benefits. Emergency medicine seems to be THE program in Indianapolis. Residents were great and I loved that they were not only willing to come to the interview dinner, but they were also willing to drive you. This said a lot about them/the program.

Cons: cold, not a huge fan of the midwest. Big program.

3) UTSW -
Pros: facilities, large volume, great peds experience, tons of resources available, high salary, jobs in Texas after residency.

Cons: trauma was weak (commute to Fort Worth for trauma rotations), maybe too busy? (if thats really such a thing), not excited about Dallas traffic, $500/month for family health insurance

4) Maricopa -
Pros: great trauma (switch off with surgery for procedures), sick patients, nice PD.

Cons: "county" facilities, questionable strength of off-service rotations, many different sites, poor relationship with Phoenix children"s at the moment, wasn't super impressed by the resident dinner/lunch (may have been a fluke), Phoenix traffic.

5) University of Utah -
Pros: location, Intermountain Medical Center rotations seemed really great, orthopedic ski clinic.

Cons: didn't mesh well with residents/faculty, they seem to be a little "stuck up", low volume/acuity at main ED

6) Baylor
7) UC-Davis
8) JPS
9) UT-Houston
10) UNM
11) University of Arizona - South
12) Cook County
13) UIC
14) UNLV

Other:
I applied to a 44 programs, which were a mix of "DO friendly" and reach programs. 24 invites. Got lots of love from the ones who've taken DO's in the past. Not so much from others.

Interview declined: Hennepin, VCU, Case Western/MetroHealth, Grand Rapids, Albert Einstein Philly, UMKC, University of Kansas- Kansas City, UI- Peoria, Christus, UTSA

Waitlisted: Maryland, Stanford

Rejected or no contact: Couple of random east and west coast programs plus some of the bigger name programs like Cincinnati, Denver, Vandy, Emory. Nothing heartbreaking or surprising there.

I'd appreciate it if the person who this list belongs to would PM me!

 

[Apollyon]

I think at this point people are just doing it to troll you.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Certainly possible, but it's juvenile, stupid, certainly unoriginal, not clever, and wastes other people's time. And, since it is anonymous, it's all bull****, anyhow.

 

[tux4]

There are two parts to the SLOE ranking -- first is "compared to other EM residency candidates you have recommended in the last academic year, this candidate is in the..." top 10%, top 1/3, middle 1/3, and bottom 1/3. We typically place students in these categories based solely on their subinternship performance. The subsequent question is "how highly would you estimate the candidate will reside on your rank list?" These two questions are asking different questions. It is very possible that someone will be top 1/3 for subinternship performance and middle 1/3 or even lower 1/3 for rank list, depending on the rest of their application and fit for the program. For instance, if I have an above-average rotating student (let's say top 1/3 on evaluations) who failed the boards twice and has no extracurricular activities, they may be top 1/3 for subinternship performance and bottom 1/3 for rank list. This is why doing rotations at places that are good fits for your application is the best idea. I get students each year who want to do an away rotation with us who, even if they were the best subintern of the year, would be unlikely to match with us because of the strength of the rest of their application. I try to suggest alternative places to rotate for those applicants, because it is not in their best interest to spend their time rotating at a site they will not be competitive to match at.

To answer your quoted question much more directly: I would never give a student who honored the rotation a lower 1/3 designation for subinternship performance (or obviously they would never have achieved honors), but based on the factors I outlined above, it would be possible that they would be lower 1/3 rank list.

Is there an area to explain why that student would be considered at the bottom 1/3 despite a top 1/3 performance? If not then it just leaves it up the imagination of whoever will see the letter, making it quite subjective based off if that one question. Also even if that person has a low chance at matching at your residency, your answer to that question is potentially affecting their competitiveness at other institutions. All of that just based off of one programs bias toward what medical school that person came from. If there is low/no potential of that person matching there, then should it be equally as difficult to do an audition rotation there? So as to avoid any confusion, not waste someones time and not get a SLOE that deals collateral damage.


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[Cinematographer]

Dude, chill...

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Is there an area to explain why that student would be considered at the bottom 1/3 despite a top 1/3 performance? If not then it just leaves it up the imagination of whoever will see the letter, making it quite subjective based off if that one question. Also even if that person has a low chance at matching at your residency, your answer to that question is potentially affecting their competitiveness at other institutions. All of that just based off of one programs bias toward what medical school that person came from. If there is low/no potential of that person matching there, then should it be equally as difficult to do an audition rotation there? So as to avoid any confusion, not waste someones time and not get a SLOE that deals collateral damage.

There is a section for comments at the end of the sloe, but unfortunately not everyone uses it to explain the reasoning behind the chosen ranking.

I did see a sloe writer once state something like "we allow for two IMGs to rotate from school x a year"... reading btw the lines it seems like they had some sort of agreement in place, had to take two students, but still no desire to rank IMGs. This was a pretty competitve program.

IMGs are put in a tough position. Depending on their school they may have to set up all of the rotations themselves. It's certainly not an enviable position.

No matter who the candidate is, IMG, DO, or US MD, it's very important to understand how competitive your application is, and target your fourth year rotations at places that you will likely be competitive at.

 

[deleted245139]

I review these (SLOEs) often. We know who grades hard, who grades easy, we know when a candidate kills the rotation but, for whatever reason, ranks low on that particular programs rank forecast. There is a LOT of reading between the lines. That doesn't offer any comfort to candidates, I'm sure, but know that when those are reviewed, they are taken seriously. I'm sure there are programs that could auto-KO a candidate based on a 'lower-third', but those programs are the ones fielding hundreds of apps with steps of 250/250, AOA, etc. Applicants are predictable, to an extent. The ranklists everyone is seeing isn't coincidence. It's SDN... high powered, self-selecting, and NOT representative of the applicant pool at large. Vandy/Cinci/Indy/etc CAN be selective, and they can take a SLOE with a 'bottom 1/3' ont he rank, but 'honors' performance and walk past it. That said, trust me, it has more to do with IMG or DO status at that point than it does with that particular SLOE.

I really think that programs should be clear about what they will do for you though. I read SLOEs for these candidates, GLOWING, with a bottom 1/3 rec, and I see through some of the smoke. If any app committee out there isn't taking a total app into consideration (past initial filters) they are screwing themselves out of potentially excellent candidates.

It's a complex process.
It's an irony of the SLOE... emergency medicine tried to make the eval objective and unifiorm (hell, read the CORD em website on the actual description on how to read an SLOE...). Yet it boils down to a large amount of subjective analysis. We try to read past that.

Anywho... you will ALL do very well. And no matter if you match 1st or 12th choice, put the effort in, embrace the training, and you will graduate a bad ass EM doc

 

[RPedigo]

Is there an area to explain why that student would be considered at the bottom 1/3 despite a top 1/3 performance? If not then it just leaves it up the imagination of whoever will see the letter, making it quite subjective based off if that one question. Also even if that person has a low chance at matching at your residency, your answer to that question is potentially affecting their competitiveness at other institutions. All of that just based off of one programs bias toward what medical school that person came from. If there is low/no potential of that person matching there, then should it be equally as difficult to do an audition rotation there? So as to avoid any confusion, not waste someones time and not get a SLOE that deals collateral damage.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Yes there is a comment section, and I would always use that section to describe a disparity in ranking. There is a 250-word cap in the comment box, but it allows for a nice summary of performance, areas of concern/improvement, etc.

Regarding being equally difficult to do an audition rotation, yes, we do have a "match meeting" for reviewing subinternship applicants, but as you probably know VSAS only gives limited information (sometimes Step scores, sometimes not, and in pass/fail schools unclear what their 3rd-year performance is like). I do discourage applicants who are not competitive to match with us to do rotations elsewhere for reasons you described. It is not, however, "just based off of one programs bias toward what medical school that person came from" but rather their entire application; their medical school is one aspect of that application.

 

[Emapp20177]

Why bother? Why waste your time? Not "cool", not "edgy", not funny. Not a list. Just a jumbled mess. What you posted is half done. More than one person has ranked Cinci or U of A first. There is no reasonable reason why you would mix up half of your list.

Read the other comments about those programs. Who cares. How was that one different than the next list (which did a list without any comments for 6+?)

 

[racerwad]

Read the other comments about those programs. Who cares. How was that one different than the next list (which did a list without any comments for 6+?)

Because it was an ordered list, which is the basis for a rank order list thread.

 

[FirefighterDoc]

Read the other comments about those programs. Who cares. How was that one different than the next list (which did a list without any comments for 6+?)

I agree. I mean, I sincerely appreciate all the work Apollyon has done with the rank lists. I truly mean that, you sir are a saint. However, I don't understand the anger here. This is information we wouldn't get otherwise without people volunteering it. People are understandably more enthusiastic about the upper half of their rank list than the bottom half. And thus, are more willing to write more. I know I personally wrote a lot less for the bottom half of my list than I did the top because I was a) less enthusiastic about those places and b) tired from having written a lot about the first half.

Tl;dr: I personally don't know where all the anger comes from when people don't fully fill out the list. Isn't the reason we're all going into EM is because we're all pretty chill people? If you want to be angry, that's fine. But like

We're all entitled to one. Good luck all next week!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[EMGui2017]

I agree. I mean, I sincerely appreciate all the work Apollyon has done with the rank lists. I truly mean that, you sir are a saint. However, I don't understand the anger here. This is information we wouldn't get otherwise without people volunteering it. People are understandably more enthusiastic about the upper half of their rank list than the bottom half. And thus, are more willing to write more. I know I personally wrote a lot less for the bottom half of my list than I did the top because I was a) less enthusiastic about those places and b) tired from having written a lot about the first half.

Tl;dr: I personally don't know where all the anger comes from when people don't fully fill out the list. Isn't the reason we're all going into EM is because we're all pretty chill people? If you want to be angry, that's fine. But like View attachment 216059

We're all entitled to one. Good luck all next week!!!!!!


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I don't think he is upset people aren't writing about the bottom half. He is mad that they post the bottom half in "no particular order" which by definition isn't a rank list.

Edit to also say good luck to everyone next week!

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

A lot of valuable information in this thread. Thank you to all of the attending physicians and program directors for commenting.

 

[6yearmedstud]

When you're not sure if it's a good or bad that no one ranked your #1 program on SDN

 

[doggydog]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: ~250, Step 2: ~260
EM rotations: My school is pass/fail. I passed. No idea what my SLOEs say though.
Medical school region: Midwest
Anything else that made you more competitive:
I am a DO student so I was at a disadvantage. Strong points are probably board scores. i have quite a few research projects including one pub. i have a long history and passion for volunteerism that i hope came through during interviews.

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
Underserved population and rigorous training. Location. "Fit" with faculty/resident culture. Pediatric experience. Resources.

1) St. John Hospital and Medical Center - Detroit
2) Detroit Receiving Hospital - Detroit
3) DMC Sinai Grace Hospital - Detroit
4) UTSW - Dallas
5) MetroHealth - Cleveland
6) Grand Rapids Medical Education Partners - Grand Rapids, MI
7) Central Michigan University - Saginaw, MI
8) University of Maryland - Baltimore
9) Western Michigan University - Kalamazoo, MI
10) Albert Einstein - Philadelphia

Other:
Did not rank Genesys in Grand Blanc, MI.

 

[doggydog]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: ~240, Step 2: ~250
EM rotations: H/H
Medical school region: Mid-Atlantic
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Reasonably interesting history prior to med school

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
Clinical training + decent academic opportunity. Prefer 3>4 .

1) Cook County
The only 4 year program I decided to interview at. Absolutely loved their residents, staff and admins. Respected the ethos and heart of the program. Very much fit with what I want in my training. I am actually a fan of the extra medicine time, too.

Cons: 4 years, lower salary, more scut. In the end I decided it was worth it though.

2) Emory
Really struggled with Emory vs Cook. Also an amazing program ethos. Great community-type training at Grady but also access to legitimate resources for research and potential international exposure.

3) UNC
Loved the residents, good mix of academic + community feel. Nice place to live for a few years.

4) MCV
This one really surprised me- wasn't expecting much from them and then was shocked how much I enjoyed my experience. Loved the PD, great training, great mission.

Cons: Don't really want to live in Richmond.

5) Advocate Christ
My favorite residents of the interview season. Such a fun group, would love to work with them. Great clinical training, surprisingly productive with research.

Cons: Not a convenient location to commute to if you want to live in a more fun part of Chicago.

6) Maryland
Good clinical + academic mix, productive research. Shock trauma is awesome.

Cons: Baltimore less desirable. I think the PD seemed really effective at his job but didn't seem to have a good rapport with him.

7) Mayo
Infinite resources, great off service training, take excellent care of their residents.

Cons: maybe too academic. Hard to imagine work there is representative of EM work almost anyplace else. That worried me a bit.

8) Iowa
Loved the people, lots of interesting opportunities for residents. Really enjoyed the area. Super productive with research.

Cons: Less trauma, didn't have a great rapport with their PD

9) Greenville, SC
Blew me away- an almost perfect interview day. Loved their PD, the staff, the way they are structuring their curriculum.

Con: not in love with living in that area of the south, brand new program. If it had been around for even just a couple years, this place probably would have been in the mix for #1 for me. Would still be really happy training there.

10) VT Carillon
High volume, crap tons of procedures, well run interview day. Liked the staff, really pretty area, competitive pay with low COL. Pretty good moon lighting opportunities.

Cons: An amazing region to live if you are out-doorsy, but since I'm not really the kayak/climb/mountain bike type I find the area less appealing.

11) MCW
Nice people, beautiful facilities, awesome flight program. Milwaukee is sneaky cool, too.

Cons: None really, just didn't feel like the right fit.

12) Wake Forest
My least favorite interview day of the season. Great reputation, super academic.

Cons: Lots of weirdly uncomfortable and borderline hostile interactions with interviewers (it was such an outlier in that regard.) Didn't love WS. Want more off-service exposure.

 

[doggydog]

Submitted anonymously, via Google Form.

Applicant Summary:
Step 1: >240, Step 2: >240
EM rotations: HP/H/P
Medical school region: Left Blank
Anything else that made you more competitive:
Top 10% of class, mostly honored clinical grades, one SLOE ranked in top 10% per an interviewer, other SLOEs were probably meh (never discussed during interview, no indication if positive or negative), no publications, DO applicant, strong personal statement, application "bulletproof."

Main Considerations in Creating this ROL:
Only applied to 3 year programs, Community/county>academic. Tried to balance perceived training quality and reputation with quality of life and COL, avoided big cities with high COL and terrible traffic. SO happiness also helped shape rank list geographically favoring west>midwest. Did not apply to east coast, southern, LA, or Chicago programs. Favored programs that were not consult heavy.

My rank list would likely look quite a bit different if geography didn't play such a heavy role. I was really impressed with most places I interviewed at and will be happy even if I fall way down my list. I had a really difficult time ranking programs because so many are so good (EM is great like that)! I have some really fantastic programs in the bottom half of my list that could easily be in the top couple of spots. It really was like splitting hairs for me and geography won when it came down to it.

1) University of Utah
Pros: balance of community and academic medicine, great residents, beautiful location, minimal traffic, livable city, didactics were very good, strong off-service with some fun experiences built in.

Cons: a little more academic than I would prefer, less county exposure than a lot of my other top choices. Still a division of surgery and splitting airways with anesthesia. Heard from numerous sources that there may be some limited pathology here and a lower volume of high acuity patients.

2) Maricopa
Pros: straight county experience, EM seems to be well respected here. Not much consulting or turning over procedures to other services. 10 months in the ED 3rd year, paid conference for all 3 years, awesome winters, 4 weeks vacation, recently established Creighton affiliation may bring in more academic backing (and money). Integrated pediatrics, burn rotation. This may be the only 3 year program I visited with 3 months of elective time. Hopefully fewer shifts 3rd year translates to moonlighting experience. You only do two night shifts/month for 11 months, all your other night shifts are packed into the 12th month. 9 hour shifts (20-18-16)

Cons: Phoenix traffic and hot summers, numerous sites, neuro floor rotation. Facilities were not much to look at but that will change with new hospital being built over the course of the next 3-5 years.

3) University of Arizona - South Campus
Pros: community with about 1/3 of shifts at academic center, mixed pediatric exposure at South Campus, dedicated peds ED at main campus. Residents have a lot of autonomy despite a graduated responsibility set-up. Good residents with healthy mix of married/committed and single residents. Low COL, best benefit package on my list, warm and fuzzies, 4 weeks vacation, awesome PD (as mentioned already by many). 9 hour shifts (20-19-18)

Cons: transitioning to cerner in July, recently purchased by Banner Health so there are some unknowns, not entirely sure how I feel about weekly spanish courses as a part of didactics.

4) University of Nebraska
Pros: single facility, only Trauma I in Nebraska, low traffic, great pay and benefits, awesome residents who seemed very down to earth, happy, and friendly. Great interactions with faculty, safe, 4 weeks vacation, great internal and external moonlighting. Seem to take care of residents very well, warm and fuzzies. Creighton ED closing so they expect to see an increase in volume. Best interview day and info packet, presented very well. 12 hour shifts for interns, 9 hours PGY2-3 (18-20)

Cons: cold winters, maybe a little more academic than I would like, ED remodel coming soon, didactic room was tiny, tons of consults and subspecialists, paid parking (really? Come on Omaha).

5) UNM
Pros: great mix of county/community/academic medicine. Strong reputation in EM, have a lot of fellowship trained EM docs, particularly in critical care. Nice facilities, faculty seemed down to earth, most of the residents came off very friendly, confident. ABQ seems pretty livable (and a little odd), low COL, outdoor activities close, much milder climate than Arizona, +moonlighting. PD seemed laid back and loved her residents. 9 hour shifts (18 for interns?)

Cons: lower end of payscale, aforementioned boarding problems, seemed to be some gear grinding with trauma team and frustrated residents because of it.

6) UC Davis
Pros: great facilities. Sacramento, contrary to what I had heard, seemed like a nice place to live with great weather and tons of trees. Minimal traffic, longitudinal pediatric exposure, 20% of shifts are at community site, scribes for PGY2-3, significant county patient population, flexible vacation, great weather. 10 hour shifts (no new after 8), 12s on weekends (none for interns), (20-18-16)

Cons: would have been higher on the list but of COL, though low by CA standards, was a concern for me. Lots of consulting and subspecialists around, ease of psych placement ebbs and flows. Medicine floor month, paid parking.

7) Kaweah Delta
Pros: Very friendly, down-to-earth residents. EM was the first residency here and is expanding and seems to run the show. High volume ED that is bursting at the seams, small surgery residency and no ortho residents. Decent pay, great benefits, low COL for CA, no traffic, no commute, great weather, great access to Sequoia National Park and mountains. Great lifestyle fit, hard for me to gauge training. 10 hour shifts (19-18-17)

Cons: newer program and as such lacks alumni network though they have no trouble getting people jobs in CA, transitioning to Cerner in November, ED remodel and expansion coming, residents said cafeteria was no bueno, new program growing pains regarding didactics and resident education.

8) Western Michigan
Pros: Low COL, minimal commute, two great hospitals to rotate at (rotate on a month to month basis). Monthly sim if that's your thing, scribes PGY2-3 at one facility, paid conference PGY2-3, PGY2-3 have one 24 hour lifeflight shift/month, one ultrasound shift/month, one 24 hour physician response vehicle shift/month which gives some fun training outside the department. Extra days off for holidays, can use single vacation days, huge group of residents which means more people to mesh with, new medical school facilities to use, lots of sports med opportunities, run most traumas due to small gen surg program, ICU staffed by EM docs, EPIC 8 hour shifts (19-18-17)

Cons: huge program is +/-, lower pay. Geography and long winters were the only reasons this program fell this low because I would be so excited to train here, really cool program with great residents and great training.

9) University of Illinois Peoria
Pros: Low COL, no commute, no traffic, more down-to-earth residents here who I really got along well with. Huge catchment area, only Level I for 18 counties, see some penetrating traumas from gang violence, EPIC, scribes PGY2-3, read all your own plain films, 20% pediatric population in main ED, mostly faculty didactic presentations, easy social admits, tag along with SWAT when serving high risk warrants, awesome sim center, acts as county catchment, residents respected and treated well, love that it is run by the catholic church and has a great mission to go along with it. Another great program I would be happy to train in. 10 hour shifts (21-20-19)

Cons: ED setup was different, doc box sort of felt like a bus stop, religious influence in the hospital very prominent which may be a +/- for some, residents talked like their trauma experience was fairly limited to rotations on the trauma service, neuro floor month.

10) Grand Rapids
Pros: livable city, friendly residents, single site which includes dedicated pediatric hospital and ED. 1/3 of shifts are in peds ED. Residents respond to every trauma, good moonlighting opportunities, fantastic social support for patients, huge volume. Really cool facilities, residents are well trained and see a lot of pathology 8 hour shifts (21-20-19)

Cons: Spectrum is breaking off from GRMP so there are some unknowns with how that will affect residents. Not one of my better interview performances so that is likely the source of my lack of excitement.

11) UNLV
Pros: located 1/4 mile from the strip so residents seem some interesting stuff. Seemed to have a more county/community feel to it than academic. Separate trauma ED that was fairly large, dedicated pediatric ED, low COL. PD seemed like a nice guy who is putting together great opportunities for residents. Almost all residents single, fun event medicine. 12 hour shifts

Cons: 12's, seemed small for a University medical center, relatively new program still finding itself, a couple off-putting interactions at the social and during interview day that steered me away. Interview day notable for about half of the didactic presenters awarding alcohol for correctly answered questions. I'm all for having a good time, but it was a little over the top, even for Vegas. Previously high on my list, its position here had more to do with a lack of fit than perceived training quality.

Other:
44 applications split between dream programs, geographic preference, and DO friendly programs. 25 Invitations, attended 11. Geographic bias is real, got very little love from Texas. Wish list included UofAZ Main, and some Texas programs.

 

[doggydog]

SEND MOAR RANK LISTS

 

[TheBlueBlazer]

If you think the order programs are ranked is more important than the information that is shared regarding the characteristics of each program, you are doing it way, way wrong and I have pity for your unhappiness when you are miserable at a program that was not the right fit for you but more "prestigious" or highly-ranked according to other people.

 

[OnlyOneZlatan]

So many grains of salt. So many salty grains.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

deleted 2/2 paranoia

 

[6yearmedstud]

Hope everyone hears good news tomorrow! Best of luck

 

[zyx189]

cannot.go.to.sleep
argghhhh this is killing me >.<

EDIT: 4:40AM and my mind refuses to rest

 

[deleted813736]

the R3 system has released match status' on their website!


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[EMapplicant2017]

Nothin

the R3 system has released match status' on their website!


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Nothing for me yet. Must be staggered >.<

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

Nothing for me yet. Must be trolling >.<

FTFY

 

[jessk2015]

That was super mean.


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[zyx189]

Just got the email! I MATCHED!!!

 

[EMapplicant2017]

Matched!!!!!!!

Comon Friday!!!!

 

[doggydog]

Matched!

 

[deleted245139]

Congratulations to all!