[2018-2019] Emergency Medicine Application Thread

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Manny's Mangoes said:
Anyone know how we can find out about second look days? Do they send emails with the dates?
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Second look days aren't really a thing for EM residencies.
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surely said:
Second look days aren't really a thing for EM residencies.
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Two programs I interviewed at recommended I come do a shift in their ED if I'm considering ranking them highly. This is the equivalent to second look in our field I think.
 
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I apologize if this question has already been asked. Are people sending letters of intent to their top programs stating you are rating them #1 or high on ROL? Is this frowned upon? Thanks
 
i think the general consensus is saying "you're number 1" is OK but probably won't make much of a difference, and saying "ranking you highly" means nothing and everybody knows it
 
Manny's Mangoes said:
Anyone know how we can find out about second look days? Do they send emails with the dates?
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surely said:
Second look days aren't really a thing for EM residencies.
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Second look days aren't generally a requirement at the vast majority of programs, nor do they help you at most programs. They are solely for your benefit, to see if you fit in well the workplace culture. They are strictly for your knowledge of the program, its unlikely a single shift of you shadowing at a place is going to make you shoot up a programs rank list. Now if a program suggests you come back for a second look, then maybe they do value 2nd looks quite a bit, and I'd consider it in that case if it was a place I was highly interested in. But I don't think that's a very common situation.
 
Anyone interview at/currently a resident at Jackson memorial (Fl)?


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Rekt said:
Anyone else noticing people going on a ton of interviews? Finished out the season this week and met mutilple applicants hitting 16-21, non-couples matching. What has been your guys experience?
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Yeah, it seems silly. Most seem overly neurotic, but maybe that's just cuz they're spouting out their interview invite number unsolicited...

EMhopeful2 said:
My number is within that range and I am not couples matching. I got several late interviews at places I liked, so my number grew.
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^This is def reasonable tho.
 
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Garferies said:
Had couple interviews that asked me where else I am rotating at. Is it because I only have 2 SLOEs? Is my ranking going to drop or not be included in the rank because I don't have 3 SLOEs?

Have some good West Coast programs on me, but worried about the 5% (based on the EM survey of programs that said 95% required only 2 SLOEs) where they require 3 SLOEs to be put on the rank list.
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Nah. If they required 3 sloes to interview, they wouldn't have interviewed you with only 2. They were asking because they were fishing for details about your geographic interests. They know where you rotated for your two sloes. They wanted to know where else you rotated. Knowing where you did all your rotations gives them a picture of where you may want to end up.
 
Who knows. That comes from a PD survey I saw a few years ago where like 80-some percent of PDs said they'd extend interviews based on a single SLOE and only about 5% of PDs said they require 3 SLOEs. Who knows where those places are. And PDs change.

Honestly, I don't even remember where I saw this.
 
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I've searched through CORDs discussions and I cant find that survey. It was probably an old one from several years ago before they went to their newer message board style. CORD still recommends 2 SLOEs and maintains that 95% of programs are fine with 2 SLOEs (47% requiring 1, 48% requiring 2) and the last 5% of programs don't require any. There probably are programs that require 3, but who knows who they are.
 
Anybody having difficulty ranking due to what's being said about these new corporate programs? I interviewed at a few of them and really liked the faculty and the residents. I rotated at one and it was probably the best learning experience I had. They also are in locations that work really well for me. On the other hand, you see the disdain for these type of programs on here and on the spreadsheet. It gives me hesitation because I can understand the reason for the opposition, and I share similar concerns in some instances. Not sure if I should bump these programs below my academic/community hybrids that I didn't like and would hate the location. It feels like I'm making a mistake either way I do it.
 
TheOne13 said:
Anybody having difficulty ranking due to what's being said about these new corporate programs? I interviewed at a few of them and really liked the faculty and the residents. I rotated at one and it was probably the best learning experience I had. They also are in locations that work really well for me. On the other hand, you see the disdain for these type of programs on here and on the spreadsheet. It gives me hesitation because I can understand the reason for the opposition, and I share similar concerns in some instances. Not sure if I should bump these programs below my academic/community hybrids that I didn't like and would hate the location. It feels like I'm making a mistake either way I do it.
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You should rank your list based on your interests. If you had a great experience somewhere, and its worth the risk training at a CMG place, then by all means, that’s ok if the alternative is going to a place you didn’t like at all. You shouldn’t rank a place you had a bad experience at in a location you hate based on other peoples opinions, I don’t care what the program is. The best way to know if you are going to enjoy your residency is if you enjoyed your student rotation there. Auditions give you the best experience in terms of talking to as many people as you can. If you had a good audition somewhere, CMG or not, you at least are going in with the best idea you can get of how your residency is going to be.
 
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I still don’t get the issue with CMG’s...


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TheOne13 said:
Anybody having difficulty ranking due to what's being said about these new corporate programs? I interviewed at a few of them and really liked the faculty and the residents. I rotated at one and it was probably the best learning experience I had. They also are in locations that work really well for me. On the other hand, you see the disdain for these type of programs on here and on the spreadsheet. It gives me hesitation because I can understand the reason for the opposition, and I share similar concerns in some instances. Not sure if I should bump these programs below my academic/community hybrids that I didn't like and would hate the location. It feels like I'm making a mistake either way I do it.
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I'll disagree with Gamerdoc on this one. I think you should avoid them at all costs. Go to any other thread in this forum and you'll see how your future colleagues and current attendings talk about them. Off the top of my head alone HCA has opened at least five residencies in the last two cycles (Brandon, Oak Hill, Grand Strand, Sunrise, Orange whatever). Imagine this trend continuing through your short three years. 10-15 more residencies pumping out 8-12 grads each? Going to these places is supporting their malignant behavior. Do your own research, search AAEM about CMGs. HCA is not the only offender.
 
Many feel they are starting residencies for the wrong reasons: to access government money to provide cheap labor so a for profit ED and the CMG they are aligned with can ultimately decrease physician and midlevel coverage and increase revenue. There are also concerns that these sites may not have sufficient pathology and have off service rotations which are inadequate/lacking compared to traditional programs.

In my mind I just don’t know, I don’t have experience with working with anyone from these types of programs. So when it comes to choosing a partner I would likely prefer someone from a traditionally strong program over a nascent CMG based residency other factors being equal.

TinkleStinkle said:
I still don’t get the issue with CMG’s...


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Rekt said:
I'll disagree with Gamerdoc on this one. I think you should avoid them at all costs. Go to any other thread in this forum and you'll see how your future colleagues and current attendings talk about them. Off the top of my head alone HCA has opened at least five residencies in the last two cycles (Brandon, Oak Hill, Grand Strand, Sunrise, Orange whatever). Imagine this trend continuing through your short three years. 10-15 more residencies pumping out 8-12 grads each? Going to these places is supporting their malignant behavior. Do your own research, search AAEM about CMGs. HCA is not the only offender.
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To be fair, I’m not saying ignore the CMG issue. They had said they had worse experiences as a student and disliked the location at their other choices, and had a good experience wherever they rotated (not sure what program or what CMG it was). As a general rule, I’d probably avoid CMG run programs if I had the choice, but not everyone can be really picky. But in this specific interest, I wouldn’t choose to go to a place where I had a bad experiencde as a student, in order to avoid a CMG run program where I had a good experience. But I get where everyone is coming from with the CMG issue.
 
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Thanks to everyone for all the insight. I appreciate that opposing view points are being discussed respectfully as I've discovered many people feel strongly about this topic one way or the other. I'm not as well-versed in this subject as I should be so I'm trying to educate myself more about it.

Having spoken to some very active members of AAEM and seemingly well-informed fellow applicants, I understand that some of the concern is that residents would just be used as cheap labor, education would be tossed aside, etc. I was thus surprised at how engaged in teaching the vast majority of the attendings were at that program. A friend who rotated at a different HCA site had a similar positive experience. The faculty and leadership can't just be faking it, right? I find it hard to believe that someone would take on the demands of running a program only to just half-a** it.

To be honest, I do share many of the concerns of opening so many residencies, the impact on the market, the "rape of emergency medicine" etc. But I'm also wondering why other programs associated with CMGs such as UT-Austin, UNLV, Allegheny General, Christus Spohn, Newark Beth Israel, Tampa General, aren't being lumped with the new crop of programs. Is it because they're not for-profit (at least I think they're not)? The whole Summa Akron fiasco has been brought up before as a mark against CMGs, but couldn't that situation theoretically happen to any hospital where the SDG fails to negotiate a contract? I know of at least 2 programs that have had new groups take over within the last 5 years (although I believe one was by an SDG).

I guess I'm just confused on what makes a program questionable. Is it the fact that a CMG staffs the ED? Is it the for-profit affiliation? What if the for-profit hospital is staffed by an SDG?

I apologize for my ignorance and if I come across as trying to be argumentative. It's just that I hadn't really considered this factor in making my ROL until recently when a fellow applicant brought it up, and now I just want to be more informed in general.
 
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So far the residents and PD's I've talked to have had good experiences working for/with CMG residencies.

Most of the faculty/PD's at the HCA/CMG residencies that I investigated/interviewed were previous faculty/PD's at traditional academic programs, and thus set up their residencies very similar to the traditional academic programs. Plus it's not like they are the only residencies these hospitals either; most have surgery, OB/GYN, IM, etc, so education is inevitably weaved in the hospital system.

Had one PD specifically tell me that he was initially worried about working for an HCA group as a PD, but then found it to actually be easier and to have more resources available for him to create a better EM residency.

I agree with EMgamerdoc. A good experience is a good experience.
 
Rekt said:
I'll disagree with Gamerdoc on this one. I think you should avoid them at all costs. Go to any other thread in this forum and you'll see how your future colleagues and current attendings talk about them. Off the top of my head alone HCA has opened at least five residencies in the last two cycles (Brandon, Oak Hill, Grand Strand, Sunrise, Orange whatever). Imagine this trend continuing through your short three years. 10-15 more residencies pumping out 8-12 grads each? Going to these places is supporting their malignant behavior. Do your own research, search AAEM about CMGs. HCA is not the only offender.
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I get where you're coming from, but just because you're attending residency there doesn't mean that you're supporting malignant behavior, you may very well just be doing what's best for your life. Those spots are gonna get filled regardless, and if that location is closest to your family, where you can afford to live, and has a great staff, it seems silly to just blindly disregard it.
 
Any benefit from graduating from a residency that is staffed by an sdg?
 
Bea5T said:
Any benefit from graduating from a residency that is staffed by an sdg?
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One big benefit is they are more likely to hire you once you get outa residency from an ER staffed by their group.

I remember from my interview trail that multiple of the residents at Myrtle Beach had already signed some pretty nice contracts to stay on with the same group. Plus since these massive staffing groups manage so many different hospitals, it's potentially an easier transfer to another area.
 
Mat the coolcat said:
One big benefit is they are more likely to hire you once you get outa residency from an ER staffed by their group.

I remember from my interview trail that multiple of the residents at Myrtle Beach had already signed some pretty nice contracts to stay on with the same group. Plus since these massive staffing groups manage so many different hospitals, it's potentially an easier transfer to another area.
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That's not a SDG. That's a CMG. There's a significant difference and you should educate yourself on the difference.

I'd say there is a benefit to doing it a shop with an SDG, but there is definitely no garauntee you get hired as these jobs are extremely competitive.
 
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This post is for next years applicants who may be starting to sweat their number of interviews and searching this forum (like I did). I had only 5 until mid-November and ended the season with 15 offers. A couple of those I used connections to secure, and a few came through LOIs. The rest were I think just getting to the top of internal waitlists. Good luck and hang in there.
 
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adimeradozen said:
This post is for next years applicants who may be starting to sweat their number of interviews and searching this forum (like I did). I had only 5 until mid-November and ended the season with 15 offers. A couple of those I used connections to secure, and a few came through LOIs. The rest were I think just getting to the top of internal waitlists. Good luck and hang in there.
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I get that its hard to wait it out from the student perspective, but every year I'm on here mid-October trying to tell people not to freak out. Interviews just take time, its a rolling process.
 
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Does anyone know if it's a match violation to tell a program that you ranked them #1?
 
Manny's Mangoes said:
Does anyone know if it's a match violation to tell a program that you ranked them #1?
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It is not a violation for either side to tell the other about where they're getting ranked. It is a match violation to ask the other party where you're getting ranked.
 
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Please can we just ban every single form of post-interview communication already.
 
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Mat the coolcat said:
Had one PD specifically tell me that he was initially worried about working for an HCA group as a PD, but then found it to actually be easier and to have more resources available for him to create a better EM residency..
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Of course he's gonna say this, he's recruiting for his residency.
 
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boomshaketheroom said:
Of course he's gonna say this, he's recruiting for his residency.
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Yes. They may actually be ok to work for at that hospital, who knows. But you are probably not going to get the 100% honest truth from the PD if they are actually horrible to work for.
 
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Long story short my significant other, and I had more overlap than expected and fortunate to have a good season. Do schools see if we couples match/hurts our chances at places? Would programs be off put by this at this point? We both have strong safeties. Thanks for the input. @gamerEMdoc your input?
 
MacNCheese said:
Long story short my significant other, and I had more overlap than expected and fortunate to have a good season. Do schools see if we couples match/hurts our chances at places? Would programs be off put by this at this point? We both have strong safeties. Thanks for the input. @gamerEMdoc your input?
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Residencies know you are couples matching, its in the ERAS application. They don't know what the other is couples matching into, though that often gets brought up. I think its probably easier when you are couples matching into the same specialty, just because the program weighs the two together as an entity. The significant other in another field, that's quite difficult. You put the person on your list where you want them, but you have no control of the other program. They may give you an indication of where they want the significant other, but they aren't going to rank someone on the middle of their list highly just so you get someone you really want. I don't think programs view couples matches negatively, but I do think it makes it harder because you are no longer in complete control of you.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
Residencies know you are couples matching, its in the ERAS application. They don't know what the other is couples matching into, though that often gets brought up. I think its probably easier when you are couples matching into the same specialty, just because the program weighs the two together as an entity. The significant other in another field, that's quite difficult. You put the person on your list where you want them, but you have no control of the other program. They may give you an indication of where they want the significant other, but they aren't going to rank someone on the middle of their list highly just so you get someone you really want. I don't think programs view couples matches negatively, but I do think it makes it harder because you are no longer in complete control of you.
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Thanks I just really wanted to ensure that it wouldn't be a red flag that couples match was suddenly on our application. You're the best!
 
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Wondering if anyone completed an away rotation at USF-Morsani ? Looking for a review on how it went, impressions, etc.
 
Is it too late to send in letters of interest/intent now? I'm sure some programs have already had their rank list meetings.
I also only just resent my updated Step 2CS score, will they still rank me if it wasn't available during their rank meeting? Should I let them know that I passed?
 
yogakiwi said:
Is it too late to send in letters of interest/intent now? I'm sure some programs have already had their rank list meetings.
I also only just resent my updated Step 2CS score, will they still rank me if it wasn't available during their rank meeting? Should I let them know that I passed?
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Matched to one of my top without a CS score. Basically was told by home I could take it whenever and people don't care. As long as it is a pass I'd update folks, no reason not to.
 
Crazy how out of control the EM spreadsheet got with trolls and general nastiness. Semi-concerned about having some of these people as future co-residents lol
 
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AthleteDoc7 said:
Crazy how out of control the EM spreadsheet got with trolls and general nastiness. Semi-concerned about having some of these people as future co-residents lol
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There's no concern. It's the same 2-3 people probably. At anytime there is at most 50-60 people on the sheet, most probably obsessing over the post IV communication tab, not even on chat, out of what, 3000 EM applicants?
 
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Rekt said:
There's no concern. It's the same 2-3 people probably. At anytime there is at most 50-60 people on the sheet, most probably obsessing over the post IV communication tab, not even on chat, out of what, 3000 EM applicants?
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yeah you’re probably right, there was just one point where it was rampant and out of control last week. I’m sure it’s fine, was more just highlighting the fact that it was happening
 
GOOD LUCK to everyone this week!
 
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For anyone who didn’t match feel free to PM me for advice. Didn’t match last year and reapplied this year and found out I matched today.
 
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I matched guys, hopefully everyone else had good success this year. I just want to point out even though I made the thread Surely did all the work, so she gets all the credit.
 
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ZX10R said:
I matched guys, hopefully everyone else had good success this year. I just want to point out even though I made the thread Surely did all the work, so he gets all the credit.
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She*

Come on everyone, it’s 2019.

Congrats everyone!
 
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