23 or below MCAT score ?

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I think it all depends on where you apply, what your GPA is and how early you apply. Speaking of which what is considered an early/late time to apply?
 
VinceViegel said:
3.67 cGPA 3.52 sGPA 25 MCAT (9PS 7VR 9BS)
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If you have decent ECs (volunteer, patient care, research, etc.) you should get interviews. Your stats are pretty decent for DO schools. Just make sure to apply very early and broadly. Good luck!
 
Columbia09 said:
I think it all depends on where you apply, what your GPA is and how early you apply. Speaking of which what is considered an early/late time to apply?
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23 MCAT isn't competitive anywhere, period.

Early is June/July imo. Anything after that is late.
 
MedPR said:
23 MCAT isn't competitive anywhere, period.

Early is June/July imo. Anything after that is late.
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Gonna have to say MedPR is right IMO. A 23, to my knowledge, is below the median matriculate MCAT average at every DO school (Pending this years stats at the new schools). Not to say it isn't impossible to get into med school with the 23 but you are going to have to have some pretty significant stuff to make up for it (great gpa, EC's etc etc).

As for early, I'd say June- early August is early. I would say that unless you have pretty good stats, anything after the middle of December is late.
 
Ost3oclast said:
Gonna have to say MedPR is right IMO. A 23, to my knowledge, is below the median matriculate MCAT average at every DO school (Pending this years stats at the new schools). Not to say it isn't impossible to get into med school with the 23 but you are going to have to have some pretty significant stuff to make up for it (great gpa, EC's etc etc).

As for early, I'd say June- early August is early. I would say that unless you have pretty good stats, anything after the middle of December is late.
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50% of matriculants scored below the median MCAT score. People seem to think average or higher is what is competitive, when it is really the average minus 3-4 points. There are LOTS of matriculants both above and BELOW averages. And there are many schools with MCAT averages of 25-26. The curve probably drops off for all schools (including low tier) around 22-23.
 
user3 said:
50% of matriculants scored below the median MCAT score. People seem to think average or higher is what is competitive, when it is really the average minus 3-4 points. There are LOTS of matriculants both above and BELOW averages. And there are many schools with MCAT averages of 25-26. The curve probably drops off for all schools (including low tier) around 22-23.
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Probably? Yes but we don't know for sure. It would be nice if there was an MSAR that showed 10% and 90% for DO schools and their MCAT range, unfortunately that doesn't exist. I would consider a 23 competitive if people got in with say 3.4/3.5/23 on a regular basis. Not sure if that happens or not.....

Also, how did you reach the conclusion of the "3-4 points under" thing?
 
user3 said:
50% of matriculants scored below the median MCAT score. People seem to think average or higher is what is competitive, when it is really the average minus 3-4 points. There are LOTS of matriculants both above and BELOW averages. And there are many schools with MCAT averages of 25-26. The curve probably drops off for all schools (including low tier) around 22-23.
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I think you may have a skewed idea of what "competitive" is.

com·pet·i·tive [kuh m-pet-i-tiv] Show IPA
adjective

2.well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition: a competitive price.

4.useful to a competitor; giving a competitor an advantage.

A 23 gives no one an "advantage." No one has said that you won't get in with a 23, only that it is NOT a strong/competitive score. If a school's average MCAT for matriculants was 25 and someone was applying with a 25, I would not call that competitive. I would call that average. Any score higher than that school's average, I would consider competitive (increasing as the score goes up). MedPR is definitely right on the ball with all of this.
 
abolt18 said:
I think you may have a skewed idea of what "competitive" is.

com·pet·i·tive [kuh m-pet-i-tiv] Show IPA
adjective

2.well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition: a competitive price.

4.useful to a competitor; giving a competitor an advantage.

A 23 gives no one an "advantage." No one has said that you won't get in with a 23, only that it is NOT a strong/competitive score. If a school's average MCAT for matriculants was 25 and someone was applying with a 25, I would not call that competitive. I would call that average. Any score higher than that school's average, I would consider competitive (increasing as the score goes up). MedPR is definitely right on the ball with all of this.
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👍

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VinceViegel said:
I agree but I would say an average score is still a competitive one.
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In what world are average and competitive synonymous?

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VinceViegel said:
To me, competitive is a range from being slightly below average to above, as in you're "still in it" if you are on the low end of acceptable.

For example, in football, if the score is 21-14 then it is still a "competitive" game since the other team is "still in it" to win. Also, nobody is going to say that a 29 MCAT isn't competitive for MD.

That's just how I see competitiveness.
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A 29 isn't the same as a 23 even if both are 3 below the matriculant median and you know it.

Also 21-14 is a terrible analogy.

However we can agree to disagree, but if you truthfully think slightly bow average is competitive.. Well, idk.

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Well if you think 23 is competitive, and you get a 23, go ahead an apply with it and see if you get in. If you don't, then you may realize that "competitive" is not what you were thinking.

Besides, with your little analogy, did you not read the definition I posted for you? Competitive (in this context) means having an ADVANTAGE. If you were down 21-14, you are NOT in any way at an advantage!
 
Imo you that will hold you back = the opposite of competitive

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VinceViegel said:
Ok, guess it's just a definition difference. Maybe it's that if you have a good chance at getting in somewhere, then you are "competitive" there.
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Agreed, but a 23 doesn't give you a good chance anywhere.

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In 2011 the mean DO matriculant had a 26.51 MCAT with a standard deviation of 3.16. This means that about 13% of matriculants had an MCAT of 23 or lower. This is not good odds.

Based on mean and standard deviation saying a 23 is competitive for DO is equivalent to saying a 26.7 is competitive for MD. It isn't.
 
TwinsFan said:
In 2011 the mean DO matriculant had a 26.51 MCAT with a standard deviation of 3.16. This means that about 13% of matriculants had an MCAT of 23 or lower. This is not good odds.

Based on mean and standard deviation saying a 23 is competitive for DO is equivalent to saying a 26.7 is competitive for MD. It isn't.
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There is a bimodality to DO schools MCAT distributions-- established schools around 27-28 and newer around 24-26. People with lower numbers often fail to blanket the low tier schools with their apps, and subsequently fail to get in. Low % of matriculants doesn't necessarily mean low success rate for applicants with those stats.

If only the established schools (pre 1990) existed, I would definitely say a 23 should be retaken. It is mainly the recent explosion of schools, with their poor applicant pools they must dig deeply into to, that is why a 23 stands a reasonable chance.
 
I agree that it is bimodal. However, even if the new schools make up 30% of the 5300 matriculants and 80% of the 23 and lower scores a 23 is still fairly below average for these schools (non-competitive). But applying to all the new and lower avg MCAT schools is wise for those with lower scores.
 
Unless a school has below a 23 median, 23 is competitive nowhere.

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MedPR said:
Unless a school has below a 23 median, 23 is competitive nowhere.

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Based on reading the SDN forms some schools do have a median below 23 (I think they are mostly newer schools though). I kind of am getting surprised by a lot of things lately.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
Based on reading the SDN forms some schools do have a median below 23 (I think they are mostly newer schools though). I kind of am getting surprised by a lot of things lately.
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I've seen nothing that indicates a school has a median of 23 or below. Link?

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MedPR said:
Not sure if you are referring to the link in that thread, or the table a few posts down from the top, but the link is from 2008 and the post only shows one school with a 23, and it's a 23.70.
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Meh, yeah it probably changed the lowest I could actually see was 24 (from the school sites). I should do a more through search next time.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
Meh, yeah it probably changed the lowest I could actually see was 24 (from the school sites). I should do a more through search next time.
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Pikesvile strongly favors students from their state and area. So even with a 23 your chances aren't great there.
 
user3 said:
There is a bimodality to DO schools MCAT distributions-- established schools around 27-28 and newer around 24-26. People with lower numbers often fail to blanket the low tier schools with their apps, and subsequently fail to get in. Low % of matriculants doesn't necessarily mean low success rate for applicants with those stats.

If only the established schools (pre 1990) existed, I would definitely say a 23 should be retaken. It is mainly the recent explosion of schools, with their poor applicant pools they must dig deeply into to, that is why a 23 stands a reasonable chance.
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You've lost, go away.

VinceViegel said:
I wasn't talking about the 23. I was talking about if the school averages a 25, and your score is a 25, then that makes you competitive in my book.
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I don't want to read that book then. Average =/= competitive, competitive = > average.
 
abolt18 said:
Well if you think 23 is competitive, and you get a 23, go ahead an apply with it and see if you get in. If you don't, then you may realize that "competitive" is not what you were thinking.

Besides, with your little analogy, did you not read the definition I posted for you? Competitive (in this context) means having an ADVANTAGE. If you were down 21-14, you are NOT in any way at an advantage!
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I feel like this is potentially what it would be like talking to a patient who's obese and refuses to work out. " I don't think you realize that my weight is just fine and will work perfectly for me!"
 
Lets settle that now...For instance, my cGPA is 3.15 and my sGPA is 3.35. Will a 27 mcat score make me an average applicant or a competitive one? I think it would make me an average applicant--not a competitive one. What mcat score will put me into the competitive arena then?
 
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Temperature101 said:
Lets settle that now...For instance, my cGPA is 3.15 and my sGPA is 3.35. Will a 27 mcat score make me an average applicant or a competitive one? I think it would make me an average applicant--not a competitive one. What mcat score will put me into the competitive arena then?
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You'd still be below average imo.
 
Temperature101 said:
What if my GPAs were in reverse..ie. 3.35 cGPA and 3.15 sGPA with 27 MCAT...
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your mcat is competitive, maybe retake a science class or two. i feel like you'd be OK though if you applied broadly.

frankly, I think the best"bad situation" to be in is low cum GPA, med/high sGPA, med/high MCAT.
 
Is it a good idea to start applying without MCAT scores? I want to try to apply early but I won't have my MCAT scores until mid August because that's the month I'm taking them in. This will be the summer between my Jr and Sr year so I want to try to apply early for a spot in fall of 2015. I know you could start your apply without the MCAt and even submit some parts of the application so good idea?
 
Columbia09 said:
Has anyone here gotten into a D.O school with a 23 or below MCAT score and it doesn't count if you're an URM.
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My friend got into an OSU (MD) program last year with the stipulation that she retake some classes with them and the MCAT, and get a minimum score second time around. This adds an extra year so now she has 5 years of pr-residencies instead of 4.

She got a couple things going for her though: stellar GPA (3.7-3.8), she and her family are first generation immigrants from Ghana, she speaks a foreign language, she has her citizenship, she's a resident of Ohio.

So it's possible, but it's very rare.
 
Columbia09 said:
Is it a good idea to start applying without MCAT scores? I want to try to apply early but I won't have my MCAT scores until mid August because that's the month I'm taking them in. This will be the summer between my Jr and Sr year so I want to try to apply early for a spot in fall of 2015. I know you could start your apply without the MCAt and even submit some parts of the application so good idea?
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Yeah good idea, at least you get verified before August. Just remember that med schools won't see your application until AACOMAS/AMCAS gets your MCAT. Also remember it takes a month for your MCAT scores to come back, so we are looking at September when your application will be sent out to med schools.

That said, I took it in July, got the score back in August. Submitted application with score in August, got verified September. I had 8/12 DO schools send me interviews, and got 2/3 acceptances at the places where I actually went to interview (still waiting to hear back from the third). So a relatively late application worked out for me, although I did not get any MD interviews. Also weird, I did not get any in-state interviews...I'm in Ohio, which I hear has high in-state selection. All my DO interviews and acceptances were from OOS.
 
Temperature101 said:
What if my GPAs were in reverse..ie. 3.35 cGPA and 3.15 sGPA with 27 MCAT...
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I think that having a higher sGPA is better than a higher cGPA at many osteo schools as long as both are above a 3.0. Also some type of upward trend to go with this will help. The 27 MCAT is competitive at most schools and average to slightly below average for the top and state schools.

An early and broad app with decent ECs, LORs, medical exposure, and essays will probably net a couple interviews. I would shoot for 30+ to be competitive.
 
Columbia09 said:
I heard bad things about Campbell thats in Mississippi correct? Plus being a NY resident I would imagine that it would be hard for me to gain admissions into WVSOM correct? It really sucks being a NY resident. We only have 2 D.O schools and they're both private so theres no preference. And our State M.D schools are much more generous to out of state students than other public med schools in other states.
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I got in.
 
Temperature101 said:
What if my GPAs were in reverse..ie. 3.35 cGPA and 3.15 sGPA with 27 MCAT...
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You'd be worse off with a 3.35c/3.15s than a 3.35s/3.15c.

TwinsFan said:
I think that having a higher sGPA is better than a higher cGPA at many osteo schools as long as both are above a 3.0. Also some type of upward trend to go with this will help. The 27 MCAT is competitive at most schools and average to slightly below average for the top and state schools.

An early and broad app with decent ECs, LORs, medical exposure, and essays will probably net a couple interviews. I would shoot for 30+ to be competitive.
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+1
 
racerwad said:
If your score is the same as the average, that makes you average.
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If your score is the same as the average matriculant, doesn't that make you, as an applicant, competitive compared to the rest of the applicants for that program?
 
MedPR said:
You'd be worse off with a 3.35c/3.15s than a 3.35s/3.15c.



+1
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I agree... But someone with 3.15cGPA and 3.35sGPA with 27 MCAT is competitive for many US DO schools.

cGPA | sGPA | MCAT
Italics in the name means region bias.

-A.T. Still University, Kirksville | 3.5 | 3.4 | 27
-A.T. Still University, AZ | 3.5 | 3.41 | 27
-Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine, AL | first year taking students
-Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine | 3.51 | 3.46 | 28
-Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine, NC | first year taking students
-Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine | 3.56 | ? | 28 | (2009 data: 3.53 | 3.45 | 27)
-Des Moines University College of Osteopathic Medicine, IA | 3.68 | 3.63 | 27.3
-Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences | 3.63 | 3.56 | 27
-Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine - Erie/Seton Hill, PA | 3.44 | 3.31 | 26
-Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine - Bradenton Campus, FL | (2010 data: 3.48 | 3.39 | 27)
-Lincoln Memorial University - DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine, TN | 3.29 | 3.18 | 24.62
-Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine, IN | first year taking students
-Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, MI | 3.6 | ?.?? | 26
-New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of NYIT, NY | 3.6 | ?.?? | 28
-Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine, FL | 3.41 | 3.31 | 27
-Ohio University Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine, OH | 3.66 | ?.?? | 27
-Oklahoma State University OK | 3.64 | 3.58 | 26
-Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences WA | 3.44 | 3.36 | 26.39
-Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, PA | 3.45 | 3.38 | 27
-Georgia Campus - Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, GA |
-University of Pikeville-Kentucky, College of Osteopathic Medicine, KY | 3.5 | 3.4 | 24
-Rocky Vista University, College of Osteopathic Medicine, CO | 3.42 | 3.35 | 25
-Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in New York, NY | 3.4 | 3.3 | 27
-Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine - California, CA | 3.47 | 3.39 | 28.9
-Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine - Nevada, NV | 3.40 | 3.31 | 26.6
-UMDNJ - School of Osteopathic Medicine, NJ | 3.58 | ?.?? | 28
-University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine, ME | 3.5 | 3.45 | 27
-Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine -Virginia Campus, VA | 3.55 | 3.51 | 25
-Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine - Carolinas Campus, SC | 3.61 | 3.55 | 25
-West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine, Admissions Office, WV | ?.?? | 3.37 | 25
-Western University of Health Sciences - Pomona, CA + Lebanon, OR | 3.53 | 3.47 | 28
-William Carey University College of Osteopathic Medicine, MS | 3.35 | ?.?? | 24.3
 
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Machine33 said:
If your score is the same as the average matriculant, doesn't that make you, as an applicant, competitive compared to the rest of the applicants for that program?
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How?

As a pre-med, I compared myself to the matriculants, not applicants. I don't care about the people who did apply to medical school previously, I cared about those who actually got in.

If you're "in the mix" with the average matriculant, that puts you on par, but it doesn't confer an advantage. It just means you've met the standard. You're kidding yourself if the ADCOMs don't look at the previously admitted class's stats and use them as a benchmark.
 
racerwad said:
how?

As a pre-med, i compared myself to the matriculants, not applicants. I don't care about the people who did apply to medical school previously, i cared about those who actually got in.

If you're "in the mix" with the average matriculant, that puts you on par, but it doesn't confer an advantage. It just means you've met the standard. You're kidding yourself if the adcoms don't look at the previously admitted class's stats and use them as a benchmark.
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KABOOM!

Just wanted to emphasize this statement.
 
The two definitions of competitive:

ADCOM - you have a decent shot at getting an interview here

PREMED - you have a good shot at getting an acceptance here
 
VinceViegel said:
Why don't people get this? "Competitive" means that you're in fact "in the mix", not necessarily that you have an advantage. Dang it people.

If in a sport, one team is "on par" with the other, doesn't that make for a competitive game? Yes it does. Nobody ever says that blowouts are competitive.
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Thought I'd repost this for you...

com·pet·i·tive [kuh m-pet-i-tiv] Show IPA
adjective
2.well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition.
4.useful to a competitor; giving a competitor an advantage.
 
VinceViegel said:
Why don't people get this? "Competitive" means that you're in fact "in the mix", not necessarily that you have an advantage. Dang it people.

If in a sport, one team is "on par" with the other, doesn't that make for a competitive game? Yes it does. Nobody ever says that blowouts are competitive.
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What do you not understand about being on par vs. being competitive? Just because you've met the minimum criteria (here defined as average) doesn't make you competitive (here defined as desirable from a medical school perspective).

If I told you to do something that would "make you competitive," I would mean that it would provide an advantage to you compared to the next equivalent person. If I, as a 2nd year medical student, told you, as a premed, that a score of X and a GPA of Y would make you "competitive" at my institution and you took me at my word and then failed to get in, how would you feel about that "competitive advantage" my advice brought to you? I interpret being competitive as having a greater than random chance opportunity to be successful at something.

Obviously, if someone has a 3.9 UG and 4.0 masters GPA, years of healthcare experience, great LORs, and a great personality, along with a 23 MCAT, they may still be competitive for a seat in any given program. However, that does not mean that their MCAT is what made them competitive. It is the rest of their application that provided the competitive advantage over their peers.

23 is low. Why are you (or anyone else) aspire for the bare minimum? As a pre-med, I was aware of my deficiencies and advantages but I never let either keep me from doing better than the average.
 
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