23 or below MCAT score ?

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IMO competitive (stats) means you will be accepted if you apply intelligently (early and broadly), write thoughtful essays (PS and secondary), prepare for interviews (why medicine, why their school, etc), and don't have a criminal record.

In other words, if you do everything else right, your stats won't hold you back.
 
racerwad said:
How?

As a pre-med, I compared myself to the matriculants, not applicants. I don't care about the people who did apply to medical school previously, I cared about those who actually got in.

If you're "in the mix" with the average matriculant, that puts you on par, but it doesn't confer an advantage. It just means you've met the standard. You're kidding yourself if the ADCOMs don't look at the previously admitted class's stats and use them as a benchmark.
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That is exactly what I was saying. The average matriculant for some schools is 25. So if you have a 25, than you are competitive compared to everyone else you are applying with which will gives you a great shot at an interview and or acceptance. Obviously, the higher the score the more competitive you are. However, if you have the same score as the average MATRICULANT it is undeniable that you stand a good chance at that school.

ABOLT, you're telling me if you have a 28 mcat, you wouldn't consider yourself competitive for schools that have an average mcat of 28?

Just because your stats are competitive doesn't mean you will get in... People with all kinds of numbers get rejected. That's why this medical school application process is such a crapshoot. The school I never thought would give me love accepted me whereas my backups and safety schools rejected me. All I'm saying is if you stand in the same boat as an average matriculant to medical school, you have a decent chance.
 
Machine33 said:
That is exactly what I was saying. The average matriculant for some schools is 25. So if you have a 25, than you are competitive compared to everyone else you are applying with which will gives you a great shot at an interview and or acceptance. Obviously, the higher the score the more competitive you are. However, if you have the same score as the average MATRICULANT it is undeniable that you stand a good chance at that school.

ABOLT, you're telling me if you have a 28 mcat, you wouldn't consider yourself competitive for schools that have an average mcat of 28?

Just because your stats are competitive doesn't mean you will get in... People with all kinds of numbers get rejected. That's why this medical school application process is such a crapshoot. The school I never thought would give me love accepted me whereas my backups and safety schools rejected me. All I'm saying is if you stand in the same boat as an average matriculant to medical school, you have a decent chance.
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Ha, I just read your original post. Reading ability fail.

You were right first. 😳
 
Machine33 said:
That is exactly what I was saying. The average matriculant for some schools is 25. So if you have a 25, than you are competitive compared to everyone else you are applying with which will gives you a great shot at an interview and or acceptance. Obviously, the higher the score the more competitive you are. However, if you have the same score as the average MATRICULANT it is undeniable that you stand a good chance at that school.

ABOLT, you're telling me if you have a 28 mcat, you wouldn't consider yourself competitive for schools that have an average mcat of 28?

Just because your stats are competitive doesn't mean you will get in... People with all kinds of numbers get rejected. That's why this medical school application process is such a crapshoot. The school I never thought would give me love accepted me whereas my backups and safety schools rejected me. All I'm saying is if you stand in the same boat as an average matriculant to medical school, you have a decent chance.
Click to expand...

Same here. When your stats are low/on an edge, you really can't predict the process as much of it then comes down to your ECs, personal statement, letters, essays, and other things that can't be judged quite as easily.
 
Machine33 said:
That is exactly what I was saying. The average matriculant for some schools is 25. So if you have a 25, than you are competitive compared to everyone else you are applying with which will gives you a great shot at an interview and or acceptance. Obviously, the higher the score the more competitive you are. However, if you have the same score as the average MATRICULANT it is undeniable that you stand a good chance at that school.

ABOLT, you're telling me if you have a 28 mcat, you wouldn't consider yourself competitive for schools that have an average mcat of 28?

Just because your stats are competitive doesn't mean you will get in... People with all kinds of numbers get rejected. That's why this medical school application process is such a crapshoot. The school I never thought would give me love accepted me whereas my backups and safety schools rejected me. All I'm saying is if you stand in the same boat as an average matriculant to medical school, you have a decent chance.
Click to expand...

YES... well stated!

Competitive does not equal acceptance (in any circumstance) it just means you have a good chance.
 
racerwad said:
How?

As a pre-med, I compared myself to the matriculants, not applicants. I don't care about the people who did apply to medical school previously, I cared about those who actually got in.

If you're "in the mix" with the average matriculant, that puts you on par, but it doesn't confer an advantage. It just means you've met the standard. You're kidding yourself if the ADCOMs don't look at the previously admitted class's stats and use them as a benchmark.
Click to expand...

So should we also compare to matriculants that are of our race as well? Do you think ADCOMs look at stats broken down this way as well? Serious question.
 
NontradCA said:
So should we also compare to matriculants that are of our race as well? Do you think ADCOMs look at stats broken down this way as well? Serious question.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
NontradCA said:
Ok then so If I am black and I have a 3.4/3.5 26 I would be very competitive?
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Definitely for DO...AA average matriculant stats for DO are 3.3 ish cGPA and 3.1ish sGPA with 22ish mcat. If you are an AA with these stats, DO schools will probably 'roll out the red carpet' for you. Lol.... But I dont' think these stats are very competitive for MD; they might get you into MD though.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Definitely for DO...AA average matriculant stats for DO are 3.3 ish cGPA and 3.1ish sGPA with 22ish mcat. If you are an AA with these stats, DO schools will probably 'roll out the red carpet' for you. Lol.... But I dont' think these stats are very competitive for MD; they might get you into MD though.
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Maybe , but the ratio of matriculates to applicants for AA is much lower in comparison to other races as well. Those numbers are very troubling. Because if you look at differences between GPA and MCAT in applicants and matriculates by race, they are proportionally the same. However, the overall percentage of AA matriculates is 2.5% compared with 5.1% of all applicants. For whites it's 69% compared to 55% of all applicants. If AA truly had an edge would they not get in at similar rates?
 
Last edited:
NontradCA said:
Maybe , but the ratio of matriculates to applicants for AA is much lower in comparison to other races as well. Those numbers are very troubling. Because if you look at differences between GPA and MCAT in applicants and matriculates by race, they are proportionally the same. However, the overall percentage of AA matriculates is 2.5% compared with 5.1% of all applicants. For whites it's 69% compared to 55% of all applicants. If AA truly had an edge would they not get in at similar rates?
Click to expand...

The percentage of matriculated AA applicants does not say much as opposed to the matriculated stats of AA. The precentage is probably low because (speculation here) many AA who apply have terrible stats. I am sure that most schools would like to have much more than a 2.5% of AA so they can claim the diversity mantra (whatever that means). However, there is a limit to how far they can go to accomodate AA. They are probably not willing to take a chance to accept a student with 2.8 GPAs and 18 mcat knowing that student has a high probability to fail.
 
NontradCA said:
Ok then so If I am black and I have a 3.4/3.5 26 I would be very competitive?
Click to expand...
Yes. And for MD as well if the school you are applying to has a disadvantaged-program of some sort. Like having to retake the MCAT next year, and taking some classes at their school this year, but if you get a minimum GPA and MCAT score you are automatically in.
 
I was just making a hypothetical, I haven't taken the MCAT as yet I was just putting out what I see people say is a competitive GPA/MCAT. I'm at 3.2/3.4 now but I'm predicting those will be my stats roughly assuming I do about avg on the MCAT. I actually would like to research why AAs MCAT scores are so low.

Obviously AAs get in with a 23 since that's above the average for DO matriculates. Basically you're looked at negatively if you're white and have this score but competitive if you're a minority?
 
serenade said:
You'd have a 70+% Chances at getting into MD.
Click to expand...

I haven't consulted that chart in a while, but I don't think it's that high even for an AA. 25 is pretty low.

NontradCA said:
I was just making a hypothetical, I haven't taken the MCAT as yet I was just putting out what I see people say is a competitive GPA/MCAT. I'm at 3.2/3.4 now but I'm predicting those will be my stats roughly assuming I do about avg on the MCAT. I actually would like to research why AAs MCAT scores are so low.

Obviously AAs get in with a 23 since that's above the average for DO matriculates. Basically you're looked at negatively if you're white and have this score but competitive if you're a minority?
Click to expand...

There are way more ORM (white/asian mainly) applicants than there are URM applicants. Logic tells us that the larger ORM pool will result in more ORM 30+ scores compared to URM. Schools want to have diversity (including racial diversity) in their class and for the most part URMs are competing against other URMs, and ORMs against ORMs.
 
Hello All,

Your input would be greatly appreciated:

What are the chances of me getting an interview invite? I have been complete at most schools since August. I have received several rejections, but am either on hold or pending review at 4 other schools.

Stats:

3.85 sGPA, 3.83 cGPA
22 MCAT (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS)
Hospital (osteopathic teaching hospital) work and volunteer experience (2000+ hrs)
Solid DO shadowing

Thanks.
 
a1b2c3d4 said:
Hello All,

Your input would be greatly appreciated:

What are the chances of me getting an interview invite? I have been complete at most schools since August. I have received several rejections, but am either on hold or pending review at 4 other schools.

Stats:

3.85 sGPA, 3.83 cGPA
22 MCAT (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS)
Hospital (osteopathic teaching hospital) work and volunteer experience (2000+ hrs)
Solid DO shadowing

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Which 4 schools?
 
a1b2c3d4 said:
Hello All,

Your input would be greatly appreciated:

What are the chances of me getting an interview invite? I have been complete at most schools since August. I have received several rejections, but am either on hold or pending review at 4 other schools.

Stats:

3.85 sGPA, 3.83 cGPA
22 MCAT (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS)
Hospital (osteopathic teaching hospital) work and volunteer experience (2000+ hrs)
Solid DO shadowing

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Retake brah.
 
a1b2c3d4 said:
AZCOM, LMU-DCOM, VCOM and Tuoro-CA
Click to expand...

Unless you're from around VCOM I'm going to guess that lmu is your only remaining hope

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
MedPR said:
Unless you're from around VCOM I'm going to guess that lmu is your only remaining hope

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

This. Touro CA and AZCOM both have pretty high MCAT averages as well. Retake OP!
 
a1b2c3d4 said:
Hello All,

Your input would be greatly appreciated:

What are the chances of me getting an interview invite? I have been complete at most schools since August. I have received several rejections, but am either on hold or pending review at 4 other schools.

Stats:

3.85 sGPA, 3.83 cGPA
22 MCAT (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS)
Hospital (osteopathic teaching hospital) work and volunteer experience (2000+ hrs)
Solid DO shadowing

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Did you apply to MUCOM, ACOM, CUSOM (the new schools), PNWU, WCU, or WVSOM?
 
a1b2c3d4 said:
Hello All,

Your input would be greatly appreciated:

What are the chances of me getting an interview invite? I have been complete at most schools since August. I have received several rejections, but am either on hold or pending review at 4 other schools.

Stats:

3.85 sGPA, 3.83 cGPA
22 MCAT (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS)
Hospital (osteopathic teaching hospital) work and volunteer experience (2000+ hrs)
Solid DO shadowing

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You need to retake the MCAT. I feel like we are polar opposites. I have an MCAT a couple SDs above the average, and a GPA a few below, and you have the opposite. Unfortunately for me, retaking classes would take me another year, but you could improve your MCAT in a couple months.
 
Based on my own experiences, it seems that most DO schools, particularly those with a number of years of experience in which to form a solid base of judgement, have certain qualities that they see as an "ideal" student.

What does this mean? I don't think there is any debate that DO schools produce physicians that are just as good as their MD counterparts. Even on SDN, complete with the near constant (and tiring) flame war surrounding this issue, there seems to be at least a tacit treaty between the trolls, haters, and believers that this is the case. Most of the BS arguments here seem to center on prestige, or whether a DO will ever be the ultimate ophthalmologist, or whether being a DO will provide sufficient training to cure cancer and win a Nobel. These arguments thrive here because A) It's an internet forum and B) SDN users are self selected to be hypercompetitive. DO schools have decided that the graduates they're producing are clearly both successful and safe for practice on human beings. Every dean, of every DO school, goes to sleep at night knowing that they've helped produce a new generation of caring, compassionate, and competent physicians.

This leads to the DO stat issue. DO schools theoretically prove the poor correlation between MCAT and successful doctors (not high board scores, but successful doctors*). There are a variety of potential reasons for this: A) MCAT scores really are not relevant, B) The market for physicians of all specialities is so hot that you have to try to mess up, or C) The MCAT has limited value, in conjunction with other metrics, in selecting a good physician.

I think C is the answer. I personally believe DO schools have molds of what they consider a "good" applicant. I don't know what it is, but I see some clear similarities among students on the interview trail. I think schools focus on MCAT scores because they have to maintain a certain average score, less they will be chastised for being non-competitive among their peers. Having a high MCAT score makes you valuable, because you become an outlier. Likewise, a high GPA makes you attractive. This doesn't exclude a 23 from being accepted, but it means you have to have attributes of value to the school. You probably have to work harder to fit that "mold" of what they consider an ideal student. You should definitely make sure you have a compelling, honest story and maybe consider the mission of the school you're applying to. Being in the right location wouldn't be a bad bet. I think this is also supported by the surprising number of 31+ MCAT scores I see rejected from some schools (entirely nonscientific sample of SDN posters in the "Osteopathic Schools" thread). Clearly, being a MCAT super stud alone isn't going to make every DO school swoon over you.

Well, at least this is the magic belief I have floating around in my head. Knowing the high performance society we now live in, schools probably have rooms of servers churning out tons of data on "who" will be a successful student. Everything I said above is probably useless.

*For the purposes of this post, a "successful doctor" is someone who provides medical care consistent with accepted practices and for whom, when controlled against for issues such as social demographics, age, and complexity of comorbid factors, there is a professionally acceptable decrease in morbidity and mortality among their patient population. Additionally, they lead fulfilling lives, contribute to their communities, and advanced the practice of medicine. Simplified: A doctor who mitigates disease processes, be they psychological, medical, or traumatic. Not poor. Good guy/gal.
 
OCDEMS said:
Based on my own experiences, it seems that most DO schools, particularly those with a number of years of experience in which to form a solid base of judgement, have certain qualities that they see as an "ideal" student.

What does this mean? I don't think there is any debate that DO schools produce physicians that are just as good as their MD counterparts. Even on SDN, complete with the near constant (and tiring) flame war surrounding this issue, there seems to be at least a tacit treaty between the trolls, haters, and believers that this is the case. Most of the BS arguments here seem to center on prestige, or whether a DO will ever be the ultimate ophthalmologist, or whether being a DO will provide sufficient training to cure cancer and win a Nobel. These arguments thrive here because A) It's an internet forum and B) SDN users are self selected to be hypercompetitive. DO schools have decided that the graduates they're producing are clearly both successful and safe for practice on human beings. Every dean, of every DO school, goes to sleep at night knowing that they've helped produce a new generation of caring, compassionate, and competent physicians.

This leads to the DO stat issue. DO schools theoretically prove the poor correlation between MCAT and successful doctors (not high board scores, but successful doctors*). There are a variety of potential reasons for this: A) MCAT scores really are not relevant, B) The market for physicians of all specialities is so hot that you have to try to mess up, or C) The MCAT has limited value, in conjunction with other metrics, in selecting a good physician.

I think C is the answer. I personally believe DO schools have molds of what they consider a "good" applicant. I don't know what it is, but I see some clear similarities among students on the interview trail. I think schools focus on MCAT scores because they have to maintain a certain average score, less they will be chastised for being non-competitive among their peers. Having a high MCAT score makes you valuable, because you become an outlier. Likewise, a high GPA makes you attractive. This doesn't exclude a 23 from being accepted, but it means you have to have attributes of value to the school. You probably have to work harder to fit that "mold" of what they consider an ideal student. You should definitely make sure you have a compelling, honest story and maybe consider the mission of the school you're applying to. Being in the right location wouldn't be a bad bet. I think this is also supported by the surprising number of 31+ MCAT scores I see rejected from some schools (entirely nonscientific sample of SDN posters in the "Osteopathic Schools" thread). Clearly, being a MCAT super stud alone isn't going to make every DO school swoon over you.

Well, at least this is the magic belief I have floating around in my head. Knowing the high performance society we now live in, schools probably have rooms of servers churning out tons of data on "who" will be a successful student. Everything I said above is probably useless.

*For the purposes of this post, a "successful doctor" is someone who provides medical care consistent with accepted practices and for whom, when controlled against for issues such as social demographics, age, and complexity of comorbid factors, there is a professionally acceptable decrease in morbidity and mortality among their patient population. Additionally, they lead fulfilling lives, contribute to their communities, and advanced the practice of medicine. Simplified: A doctor who mitigates disease processes, be they psychological, medical, or traumatic. Not poor. Good guy/gal.
Click to expand...

I maintain the belief that DO schools would have higher stats if they had the same pool of applicants as MD schools. For every 3.6/25 with great life experiences there is a 3.7/33 also with great life experiences.
 
MedPR said:
I maintain the belief that DO schools would have higher stats if they had the same pool of applicants as MD schools. For every 3.6/25 with great life experiences there is a 3.7/33 also with great life experiences.
Click to expand...

How'd you get in then?
 
MedPR said:
URM brah. There's so few of us our odds are very high.
Click to expand...

I maintain the belief that URM hopefuls would have higher stats if they had less of an advantage in the matriculation process.
 
Mr Kenobi said:
:naughty:
Click to expand...

Doubt it. It's not like URMs go into college thinking (knowing?) that they can get lower stats and still make it to med school.

But yes, if the URM pool had the same statistically distribution as the ORM pool I don't think I would have gotten into med school.
 
MedPR said:
Doubt it. It's not like URMs go into college thinking (knowing?) that they can get lower stats and still make it to med school.

But yes, if the URM pool had the same statistically distribution as the ORM pool I don't think I would have gotten into allopathic med school.
Click to expand...

FTFY 👍
 
I think you would have gotten in DO. We have pretty similar stats and I got in DO but not MD.
 
torshi said:
dumb. URMs have the upper-hand it's a fact.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, perhaps not. The fact will remain however that by applying numbers only, the percentages accepted with lower scores will be higher for minority students. Still, no one can claim that their space was taken by a minority student since the number of students accepted with scores of 23 or less and even 20 is fairly consistent across all races. Proof below.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321512/data/2012factstable25-1.pdf
 
Oluedo said:
Perhaps, perhaps not. The fact will remain however that by applying numbers only, the percentages accepted with lower scores will be higher for minority students. Still, no one can claim that their space was taken by a minority student since the number of students accepted with scores of 23 or less and even 20 is fairly consistent across all races. Proof below.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321512/data/2012factstable25-1.pdf
Click to expand...

Very informative charts - thanks for the links.
 
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