A Practicing DPMs Perspective: Any Truth to this Claim??

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preDPM

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I found the following old thread and wondering if any current practicing DPMs or students/residents feel the same way??

The college loan at the end is really scary if you are struggling to pay it back. I love the job that Pods do and really want to get in but on the other hand the college loan is stressing me out. I mean whats the point going through 4 yrs DPM + 3yrs of residency and not even being able to pay off your debt?

Posts like this (apparently from a practicing DPM) wont help new students who genuinely are interested in Pod. Any light from more practicing Pods would really help students who are considering DPM and ultimately would benefit the entire profession.

This may also scare away a lot of bright students from Pod to MD/DO/Dental. The profession really needs to do prove that Pods can earn well rather than just put out surveys about Pod salaries, which might not be totally accurate either.

Pod is a growing field IMO and people already in the profession need to take interest and promote it so that it becomes a highly respectable, competitive and well paid field like other fields of medicine. Since this is apparently the boom time for Podiatry, it would be the rite time to promote it the rite way and clear any misinformation that the public and pre-med students may have about Pod.




http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=38620
As a practicing podiatrist for almost 3 years, I think I can give you some useful information.

First, I would recommend stopping by the Podiatry Forum (look under google.com for "podiatry forum") There are a lot of posts related to income, etc.

No matter what residency you do, you're unlikely to make much more than 50k in your first few years. Jobs for MD's and DO's are more plentiful and organized. There are very few attractive associate positions open to someone who just finished their residency. Most of them will come from a podiatrist who is looking for someone to work a nursing home cutting nails or doing some other unglamorous duty. In other words, don't be expected to be "hired" by some hospital or medical group when you're finished with your residency. I finished mine in 1999 and I'm still at the same clinic slogging away at nails and calluses. My cohorts, who had more surgical training than me, are doing the same thing.

Podiatrists also get reimbursed less than MD's and DO's for their services. Oftentimes, they get even less than other health practitioners such as nurses, PA's and PT's. It's embarassing.

As far as starting your own practice, you're going to need to take out yet another loan (if a bank will allow it taking into consideration your likely $175,000 school loan debt and the outlook on your future earnings) in the range of something like $50-100,000. And then there is the additional constraint of getting on health plans to actually see patients. It is required by the majority of insurance carriers that you be board certified in podiatric surgery before they'll let you see their patients. When I was a student, that kind of training went to less than half of the graduating class leaving the rest of us a one year, non-surgically based "residency", which left many with few options. These days, there is practically NO competition to get into podiatry school, thus, whatever surgical residencies that do exist will have a smaller applicant pool to pick from. Your chances of being surgically trained are greater, but....you should really check out the podiatry forum.

You need to keep in mind that unless you've socked away $175,000 or so to fund your education, you're going to be required to begin paying those loans off when you finish residency. I don't know where you're planning to live or practice, but just by doing some simple math, it should be evident that $50,000 doesn't really go a long way. Especially if you're considering taking out even more loans to start your own practice.

Give it some serious thought.

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That post was from quite a few years back. And who knows if that person was a truly practicing podiatrist. I've posted on here quite a bit and I have a couple of threads allowing you to realize what your income potential can be as a podiatrist.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=470930&highlight=sportpod


Most people in medicine have a student loans and they have to pay them back, but you do get 30 years to pay them back. So, there isn't a huge rush.

I believe in this weeks Newsweek they talk about a couple who went to medical school and have a $500K combined loan that they have to pay back.

By the way, I've been in practice going on 7 years now and wouldn't change my profession for anything.
 
Sorry, the article was on CNN.com and here it is below:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/16/pf/young_doctors.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2007111611

As you can see podiatry isn't the only profession that can potentially have a high debt burden. I believe that this needs to be changed since we are providing a service to people in this country and shouldn't have to endure such high debt, but until some of the medical schools out there go away from being tuition driven institutions, the debt will continue.
 
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There are hundreds of posts with discussions regarding salary on this forum. That would be a great place to start researching this issue. It's just amazing to me how often these negative posts from one disgruntled person come up as an issue. I can give you hundreds of names of DPMs who are making great salaries, have terrific practices and have paid back their student loans in record time. Think about both sides of the coin before making decisions based on anonymous web bloggers.
 
I would really like to believe you APMA admin but, people on websites like this: http://www.network54.com/Forum/256862/ have so many negative posts about Podiatry that its hard what and whom to believe. I am surprised at the number of negative posts by apparent practicing DPMs. It is enough to make any potential DPM student nervous because we do have to take out a huge loan that has to be paid back.
 
preDPM,
I would go and shadow a number of pods yourself, ask THEM about these negative posts if you are sincerely concerned and believe them....these negative posts have been addressed a number of times over the past 4 some odd years, a search would provide you with answers as to why these things have happened to these disgruntled podiatrists...

If you are sincerely concerned about this, I would recommend shadowing at least 3-5 different practicing podiatrists (younger ones and older ones), see how things are going with them...ask them about what they think about these posts....

I am sure you will find that things have changed quite a bit and are still changing for the betterment of the field with Resolution 2015 etc....

In MY opinion, your biggest concern (within this realm) should be whether residency spots will be sufficiently available considering there is a new pod school opening....but again if you are a good student in pod school, you should be fine....:thumbup:
 
sounds like a site full of attention wh0res and people who want to keep away competition
 
I would really like to believe you APMA admin but, people on websites like this: http://www.network54.com/Forum/256862/ have so many negative posts about Podiatry that its hard what and whom to believe. I am surprised at the number of negative posts by apparent practicing DPMs. It is enough to make any potential DPM student nervous because we do have to take out a huge loan that has to be paid back.

As it has been stated before, go shadow several podiatrists. The internet is not controlled by anyone, so anybody (and I mean anybody) can put up a post blasting podiatry. So take what you see on the internet with a grain of salt (especially when it's from a site that isn't overseen with a moderator).
 
I would really like to believe you APMA admin but, people on websites like this: http://www.network54.com/Forum/256862/ have so many negative posts about Podiatry that its hard what and whom to believe. I am surprised at the number of negative posts by apparent practicing DPMs. It is enough to make any potential DPM student nervous because we do have to take out a huge loan that has to be paid back.

Network54 never has anything good to say about podiatry. It's controlled by a few disgruntled clinicians who can type quickly and have strong criticism for their profession.

Although I think that Network54 is an extreme, you will find people who are always kvetching about salary and the like in every profession.

Maybe podiatrists are vocal about these issues because there is a disparity between us, (the new pods), and them. A lot has changed over a short amount of time in podiatry, while the quintessence for M.D. and D.O. schools has remained fairly constant.
 
The disgruntled always seem more vocal as well...
 
Does anyone else get the feeling from reading some of those posts that much of the negativity is coming from older DPMs that are scared of the younger and better trained competition?
 
The best way to get the answer to your question is to go shadow a podiatrist, like everyone has suggested. It is common sense that these people who complain and complain are basically just not fit for the profession. Some people are just not cut out to be in the medical field, period. And it is the stragglers that enter something they have no real commitment, or passion about that fail and complain. You don't see the pods that are making 200,000 plus on this forum complaining because they don't have enough time because they are busy running a busy practice or enjoying the benefits of the lifestyle. If podiatry is something that you are sincerely interested in, get up and get connected. It's really easy. There are so many podiatrists out there willing to shed light on how fulfilling this profession is. It is not my or anyone else's place to sell you on it.....you have to like it for what it is, so check it out! If it's not what you expected, there is so many other options.

I actually work at a podiatrist office as a back office and front office assistant so I'm getting a real preview of what the profession is about. it has only been awhile, and I hope by sharing my experiences so far, it will give those who are looking into podiatry some answers.

We see a lot of diabetic patients....there is a lot of debridement of lesions, etc. The pod does a lot of xray consults...and if needed, will schedule to perform a surgery (bunionectomy, osteotomy, arthroplasty, etc etc etc!). Of course there is routine care...which includes clippings and all that jolly stuff, biopsies/processing pathology. I can't tell you how many orthotics we process. Orthotic reimbursement is pretty good. For those who care about the numbers....think about like this:

Patient comes in as a new patient: $120.00
Patient schedules a range of motion/casting (to be fitted for orthotics).
Patient comes in for casting: $60 for visit + $100.00 for casting.
Patient schedules follow up for orthotic dispense.
Orthotic dispense....around $360 ish for the orthotics +60.00 office visit.
Patient follows up in 6 weeks for a check.

Just for one patient....thats what roughly 500-600 dollars. The orthotic lab charges about 80 bucks...thats a nice profit right? Now we do around 5 a day...That's only a piece of the pie. The doc sees at about 20 patients a day for all kinds of cases...do the math. I can go into surgery costs, xray costs, debridement costs, ETC ETC....but I'd rather not because there is way too much.....lets just say after doing the billing, I wouldn't be worried about income if you have what it takes to be a podiatrist. I process and see these numbers for myself so obviously I believe it. Rather, I know it.

There is so much to being a podiatrist. I see how they are an integral part of the healthcare system. We get tons of referrals, and also work with other specialties to provide the patient a well rounded treatment plan. The foot can show early signs of serious disease, so often the podiatrist can detect this and give the patient a better prognosis. They can also save limbs!! The pod recently performed a surgery where part of the bone in the foot was removed to relieve pressure...the patient was diabetic and this was causing an ulceration. This procedure gave the patient a better chance at keeping his foot.

So again if you are sincerely interested, go get educated by a podiatrist!! You get what you put into it...thats with everything including getting up right now and learning about it..!


I am so excited to start school this fall (SCHOLL!!) GOOD LUCK!:hardy:
 
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The best way to get the answer to your question is to go shadow a podiatrist, like everyone has suggested. It is common sense that these people who complain and complain are basically just not fit for the profession. Some people are just not cut out to be in the medical field, period. And it is the stragglers that enter something they have no real commitment, or passion about that fail and complain. You don't see the pods that are making 200,000 plus on this forum complaining because they don't have enough time because they are busy running a busy practice or enjoying the benefits of the lifestyle. If podiatry is something that you are sincerely interested in, get up and get connected. It's really easy. There are so many podiatrists out there willing to shed light on how fulfilling this profession is. It is not my or anyone else's place to sell you on it.....you have to like it for what it is, so check it out! If it's not what you expected, there is so many other options.

I actually work at a podiatrist office as a back office and front office assistant so I'm getting a real preview of what the profession is about. it has only been awhile, and I hope by sharing my experiences so far, it will give those who are looking into podiatry some answers.

We see a lot of diabetic patients....there is a lot of debridement of lesions, etc. The pod does a lot of xray consults...and if needed, will schedule to perform a surgery (bunionectomy, osteotomy, arthroplasty, etc etc etc!). Of course there is routine care...which includes clippings and all that jolly stuff, biopsies/processing pathology. I can't tell you how many orthotics we process. Orthotic reimbursement is pretty good. For those who care about the numbers....think about like this:

Patient comes in as a new patient: $120.00
Patient schedules a range of motion/casting (to be fitted for orthotics).
Patient comes in for casting: $60 for visit + $100.00 for casting.
Patient schedules follow up for orthotic dispense.
Orthotic dispense....around $360 ish for the orthotics +60.00 office visit.
Patient follows up in 6 weeks for a check.

Just for one patient....thats what roughly 500-600 dollars. The orthotic lab charges about 80 bucks...thats a nice profit right? Now we do around 5 a day...That's only a piece of the pie. The doc sees at least 30 patients a day for all kinds of cases...do the math. I can go into surgery costs, xray costs, debridement costs, ETC ETC....but I'd rather not because there is way too much.....lets just say after doing the billing, I wouldn't be worried about income if you have what it takes to be a podiatrist. I process and see these numbers for myself so obviously I believe it. Rather, I know it.

There is so much to being a podiatrist. I see how they are an integral part of the healthcare system. We get tons of referrals, and also work with other specialties to provide the patient a well rounded treatment plan. The foot can show early signs of serious disease, so often the podiatrist can detect this and give the patient a better prognosis. They can also save limbs!! The pod recently performed a surgery where part of the bone in the foot was removed to relieve pressure...the patient was diabetic and this was causing an ulceration. This procedure gave the patient a better chance at keeping his foot.

So again if you are sincerely interested, go get educated by a podiatrist!! You get what you put into it...thats with everything including getting up right now and learning about it..!


I am so excited to start school this fall (SCHOLL!!) GOOD LUCK!:hardy:
 
The best way to get the answer to your question is to go shadow a podiatrist, like everyone has suggested. It is common sense that these people who complain and complain are basically just not fit for the profession. Some people are just not cut out to be in the medical field, period. And it is the stragglers that enter something they have no real commitment, or passion about that fail and complain. You don't see the pods that are making 200,000 plus on this forum complaining because they don't have enough time because they are busy running a busy practice or enjoying the benefits of the lifestyle. If podiatry is something that you are sincerely interested in, get up and get connected. It's really easy. There are so many podiatrists out there willing to shed light on how fulfilling this profession is. It is not my or anyone else's place to sell you on it.....you have to like it for what it is, so check it out! If it's not what you expected, there is so many other options.

I actually work at a podiatrist office as a back office and front office assistant so I'm getting a real preview of what the profession is about. it has only been awhile, and I hope by sharing my experiences so far, it will give those who are looking into podiatry some answers.

We see a lot of diabetic patients....there is a lot of debridement of lesions, etc. The pod does a lot of xray consults...and if needed, will schedule to perform a surgery (bunionectomy, osteotomy, arthroplasty, etc etc etc!). Of course there is routine care...which includes clippings and all that jolly stuff, biopsies/processing pathology. I can't tell you how many orthotics we process. Orthotic reimbursement is pretty good. For those who care about the numbers....think about like this:

Patient comes in as a new patient: $120.00
Patient schedules a range of motion/casting (to be fitted for orthotics).
Patient comes in for casting: $60 for visit + $100.00 for casting.
Patient schedules follow up for orthotic dispense.
Orthotic dispense....around $360 ish for the orthotics +60.00 office visit.
Patient follows up in 6 weeks for a check.

Just for one patient....thats what roughly 500-600 dollars. The orthotic lab charges about 80 bucks...thats a nice profit right? Now we do around 5 a day...That's only a piece of the pie. The doc sees at least 30 patients a day for all kinds of cases...do the math. I can go into surgery costs, xray costs, debridement costs, ETC ETC....but I'd rather not because there is way too much.....lets just say after doing the billing, I wouldn't be worried about income if you have what it takes to be a podiatrist. I process and see these numbers for myself so obviously I believe it. Rather, I know it.

There is so much to being a podiatrist. I see how they are an integral part of the healthcare system. We get tons of referrals, and also work with other specialties to provide the patient a well rounded treatment plan. The foot can show early signs of serious disease, so often the podiatrist can detect this and give the patient a better prognosis. They can also save limbs!! The pod recently performed a surgery where part of the bone in the foot was removed to relieve pressure...the patient was diabetic and this was causing an ulceration. This procedure gave the patient a better chance at keeping his foot.

So again if you are sincerely interested, go get educated by a podiatrist!! You get what you put into it...thats with everything including getting up right now and learning about it..!


I am so excited to start school this fall (SCHOLL!!) GOOD LUCK!:hardy:

:thumbup::thumbup: great post
 
I talked to some Pods and residents and they say the same thing about disgruntled Pods who probably dont have what it takes to be a Pod or the business skills.

They also say that new DPMs after residency cant expect a huge salary (60-80k more realistic first year out of a good residency) and will most likely have to work for someone for some time before they can go out on their own. And usually, you almost always get exploited when you are the new kid on the block. I guess this is the sacrifice you may have to make if you want to learn everything about billing, operating your own business, etc before going out on your own.

If you are entering Pod school with the intention of owning your own business, you would have to wait 10 years (school+residency+experience). Realistically, you would have to wait for another 5 years before you see any significant returns on your investment after that.
 
I wouldn't expect to be making 200,000+ right off the bat, or paying off debt shortly thereafter, but I also believe you can create an ideal situation for yourself when coming out of residency, its all about the connections and effort...if you make good connections throughout pod school, then you create opportunities.....I.E. I've been in close contact with this podiatrist that is going to retire soon....he offered to save his office for me once I get out of residency! I will definitely stay in contact with him because how awesome would that be, to have a patient base handed over. There is a whole generation of podiatrists that are goin to retire, which creates great opportunities for future grads.

:luck:
 
I talked to some Pods and residents and they say the same thing about disgruntled Pods who probably dont have what it takes to be a Pod or the business skills.

They also say that new DPMs after residency cant expect a huge salary (60-80k more realistic first year out of a good residency) and will most likely have to work for someone for some time before they can go out on their own. And usually, you almost always get exploited when you are the new kid on the block. I guess this is the sacrifice you may have to make if you want to learn everything about billing, operating your own business, etc before going out on your own.

If you are entering Pod school with the intention of owning your own business, you would have to wait 10 years (school+residency+experience). Realistically, you would have to wait for another 5 years before you see any significant returns on your investment after that.

I started my own business about 4 years after residency. The magic number for any successful business is about 18 - 22 months for that practice to be able to break even. If you're not breaking even at about 18 -22 months out, you need to find out why.

Most residency programs allow the residents to rotate through offices. This is the time for you to find out how to bill and practice as a business person. Take the time to talk to the billing manager and office manager (please ask permission from your attending first). This is what I did during my residency so that I could get an idea of what all those codes meant. The earlier you can get a jump on the business side of a practice, the easier it is for you to learn how to practice efficiently and ethically.
 
I talked to some Pods and residents and they say the same thing about disgruntled Pods who probably dont have what it takes to be a Pod or the business skills.

They also say that new DPMs after residency cant expect a huge salary (60-80k more realistic first year out of a good residency) and will most likely have to work for someone for some time before they can go out on their own. And usually, you almost always get exploited when you are the new kid on the block. I guess this is the sacrifice you may have to make if you want to learn everything about billing, operating your own business, etc before going out on your own.

If you are entering Pod school with the intention of owning your own business, you would have to wait 10 years (school+residency+experience). Realistically, you would have to wait for another 5 years before you see any significant returns on your investment after that.


Does the salary tend to increase after the first year? Just seems like it would kind of suck to finally start practicing, but hardly make much more money than you did during residency...
 
Does the salary tend to increase after the first year? Just seems like it would kind of suck to finally start practicing, but hardly make much more money than you did during residency...

Salary will increase if you increase the number of patients that you are seeing. Once again, it all depends on how hard you want to work. If you are comfortable seeing about 15 patients a day your first year and decided that's the maximum number of patients you want to see, then there is no way your salary is going to increase. Now as you get busier, you should be able to have a full schedule and start seeing about 30 - 40 patients a day and after about a year you should also be having a couple of surgery per week added into the mix.
 
Now as you get busier, you should be able to have a full schedule and start seeing about 30 - 40 patients a day and after about a year you should also be having a couple of surgery per week added into the mix.

Hi SportPOD, thanks for all of your advice on this forum! How many hours of work per day is needed to see about 30-40 patients, on average?
 
Hi SportPOD, thanks for all of your advice on this forum! How many hours of work per day is needed to see about 30-40 patients, on average?

Well, depending on how complex the problems are, most of the time you can see a patient about every 15 minutes, which can translate into 32 patients in an 8 hour period. Sometimes you might have to double book the patients (two patients every 15 minutes) and then you might be able to increase to 40 or even 50 patients a day. This is dependent on how efficient you are with your time. You can double, triple or even quadruple book your patients, but remember if one of those patients is complex, you do have a waiting room full of patients. They might not be too happy. You'll get a feel for how fast you can see patients when you're in residency. Remember to practice your H & P skills in medical school.
 
sportPOD, would you say that the previously suggested salary of $60-$80k is typically just a base that doesn't include extra percentages, etc. (such as 50% of anything collected over twice the base, etc.)?

How much, on average, do you think an associate would make who sees around 30 patients/day?
 
sportPOD, would you say that the previously suggested salary of $60-$80k is typically just a base that doesn't include extra percentages, etc. (such as 50% of anything collected over twice the base, etc.)?

How much, on average, do you think an associate would make who sees around 30 patients/day?


Yes, that is a fair assumption (although I would say the minimum base is in the $85K - $90K range) for a base salary and in general for the first year you probably won't be making much of a bonus because the amount of time that it takes to get on certain insurances, which won't allow you to see those patients in the beginning. Remember when joining someone's practice that they are paying for your salary (and benefits) without getting anything in return.

On one of my posts, I had stated a formula which you can determine an average income based on an established patient office visit. On average an established office visit can run around $55. If you see 30 patients that will translate to $1650 for a day. Times a week it adds up to $8250. For one month that will translate to $33K and for one year that will add up to a net income of $396000. Now that's for seeing the patient and not including all the procedures or surgeries that can occur or if the patient is a new patient. So on average if you're seeing 30 patients a day, you can stand to make close to $400K as a minimum (if YOU HAVE 30 PATIENTS to see from DAY ONE!).
 
sportPOD, thanks for the clarification; that sounds like a pretty sweet deal...IF you see 30 patients a day from day one, as you say.

On a side note...would you say that offers in the $50k range are rare/on their way "out" (I hope so!)? Check this out...

http://locum-tenens.com/Ind2searchjobs.asp?KeyID=647&JobID=323

I'm not sure where that position is located, but it never hurts to take look at an offer. You always have a right to take a look and see if the practice is something that you want to "fit into". But with such a low salary, you should ask to see the books (how much money is coming in vs. going out). If you're not shown, then slowly walk away.
 
I see where you're coming from. I just don't see how a recently-graduated podiatrist could afford to live (in a decent area of town, at least) on $50k when several thousand dollars a month have to be paid just towards student loans...
 
I see where you're coming from. I just don't see how a recently-graduated podiatrist could afford to live (in a decent area of town, at least) on $50k when several thousand dollars a month have to be paid just towards student loans...

It says "base," which might mean there are incentive bonuses too.

Also remember that contracts are usually negotiable. That may be just their opening offer, and they're expecting a counter-offer. Does the base increase after year 1? You may be able to negotiate.
 
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