AA totally out of control?

[ether^O^]

---

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you're an idiot

end of discussion

Isn't this an attack also?

 

[Nasrudin]

Ok, it's time to call a few folks out.😡

I don't know what's worse, the fact that a person can post something like this and not get banned for it or the fact that so many URM's, myself included, continue to post on a site where people like this jerk allowed to post this s*it on a REGULAR basis!😡

I'm all about free speech but how many of us URM's would frequent a restaurant if one of the employers refered to the blacks as "black a$$holes" for wanting to order fried chicken?

👍 👍 👍

I agree...Moderators....you have the moral obligation to protect board users from hate speech!!! The tone of the poster she referenced was malicious and should be way out of bounds!!!

1path, you've maintained your composure under vicious verbal attacks. I think you show alot of grace.

I have been ambiguous on affirmative action on this premed journey. Having recently watched "Eyes on the Prize" and witnessing this millionth thread on AA where the predictable pattern of insulated self-interest often demonstrates its ugly undercurrent i'm starting to look at it in a whole new light. Carry on. I think reason and experience can change people's perspective--if they are open to it in the first place.--Ben.

 

[GoodDoctor]

This is one of those debates like abortion that will never be solved because both sides have some reasonable points, and both sides are coming from different starting points that make it difficult to understand that both sides actually do agree on some key points.

To the pro-URM folk: On principle alone, it is hard to argue that skin color or ancestry are fair measures of someone's potential worth as a doctor. Life experience and proven dedication to underserved communities show more than ones skin color or ancestry for potential to serve in areas that need doctors.

To the anti-URM folk: In practical terms, there are hispanic, black, and native american communities that are underserved. Using skin color or ancestry are probably the easiest, although imperfect, method to address this problem.
If we were to throw in poor white people, as many suggest, we would end up with the same problem you say we have now with URMs: students with lower scores who appear less qualified. And, this would leave fewer spots open to less competitive blacks/hispanics to fix the problem of underserved minority areas. Minorities win this one because they have smaller overall representation regardless of econimic background. So all else equal, admitting a poor black/hispanic over a poor white makes a more proportional difference. If we are going to do something that is on some level arbitrary or unfair in order to address a community problem, it is more practical to go with the minorities, since we'll get more bang for our buck.

To both: A nice compromise might be to use more than one semi-arbitrary category to decide who gets special consideration for admissions. For example, black or hispanic folk who grew up in predominantly black/hispanic communities that were poor and underserved could be given AA, but middle class black/hispanic folk who grew up in affluent neighborhoods would not. Service to underserved communities could be taking into account as well. But, this is more complicated and more difficult to administer.

My Solution: One post asked why Appalacia is underserved. The cause must be the same as is seen in black/hispanic/native communities. There are fewer applicants in general from all of these areas, and these applicants are generally less academically competitive. This is where the practical side of URM does not translate perfectly into its puported goal. There should be an effort to help these poor, underserved white communities as well.

I think that the current URM system does not go far enough to fix the problem of underserved communities. We should offer greater incentives to work in these communities. For example, loan forgiveness, lower tax rates, free malpractice insurance (or better yet, exemption from malpractice lawsuits), supplemental salary, guaranteed fed rate on mortgages in these communities, no property taxes, free automobile and gas, etc. could all be offered to lure doctors to these areas. Some of these (such as low mortgage, no property taxes, lower tax rate) would not cost the community a thing, since they would not be getting taxes, etc. from the doctor in the first place if they were unwilling to live there otherwise. It would be the big cities that would be missing out on the taxes, etc. these doctors would have been paying there.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

We (Jews) ARE a race. If you don't believe me, then compare a few of our DNA samples. You will be very surprised.

First of all, race is a social construct based on phenotype thus, it does not exist.... Secondly, are you saying that an Ethiopian Jew and an Ashkenazi Jew are as similar genetically as an Irish man and English man??? Is a Jew who has lived in Europe for a really long time similar genetically to one who lived in the Middle East or Africa for a really long time?? The average Jewish IQ in America is 115 but the average IQ in Israel is 94 how do you explain the difference???

Maybe you should PM me your response if it is a “book” b/c we don’t need this thread to go on a huge tangent… When IQ gets discussed on SDN a lot of people get really angry and threads get hateful really quickly…

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

👍 👍 👍

I agree...Moderators....you have the moral obligation to protect board users from hate speech!!! The tone of the poster she referenced was malicious and should be way out of bounds!!!

1path, you've maintained your composure under vicious verbal attacks. I think you show alot of grace.

I have been ambiguous on affirmative action on this premed journey. Having recently watched "Eyes on the Prize" and witnessing this millionth thread on AA where the predictable pattern of insulated self-interest often demonstrates its ugly undercurrent i'm starting to look at it in a whole new light. Carry on. I think reason and experience can change people's perspective--if they are open to it in the first place.--Ben.

word

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Ok, it's time to call a few folks out.😡

I don't know what's worse, the fact that a person can post something like this and not get banned for it or the fact that so many URM's, myself included, continue to post on a site where people like this jerk allowed to post this s*it on a REGULAR basis!😡

I'm all about free speech but how many of us URM's would frequent a restaurant if one of the employers refered to the blacks as "black a$$holes" for wanting to order fried chicken?

Word! His hate for black people has reached a disturbingly high level... I think most of these AA debates are mired in ethnocentrism/backing of ones own race... If people would look at what is beneficial for America they would realize that on the most basic level AA is a good program for everybody.

 

[Beau Geste]

But it's OK for folks on SDN to CONSTANTLY make broad judgements about the qualifications of URM's or should I say lack of qualifications? Common,(Come on?) if you want to make broad generalizations about what I said despite my disclaimer, then reread this thread and comment of all the stuff here too!

I admit, I have not read the entire thread - I just didn't have the time yesterday to sift through 100+ posts.

AA is not descriptive of a person or group of people like saying all whites revert back to Jim Crow era in the presence of a black person. AA was developed as a way to advance black people in professional and academic society. There are legitimate arguments for AND against AA, but never for calling all white people racist.

And again, not all SDNers make such broad statements about AA. There are thousands of SDNers registered, but only a handful participate in the AA threads.

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me about this. I just wanted to point out that not all white people are Jim Crow.

 

[riceman04]

Actually the language is fine, it's WHAT he said and WHO he said it to that I have a problem with.😡 I mean really, could I get away with posting "asian a$$holes who don't support AA" without being banned immediately?
Tell you what, don't do a thing. I'll change my internet behavior instead.👍

 

[riceman04]

There are legitimate arguments for AND against AA, but never for calling all white people racist.

True True!
Welllllllllllllllllllllllll Preach PREACHA PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Stolenspatulas]

All of you should not be doctors. end of story. i dont want a doctor who can't see and feel for an alternate interpretation of an issue. period.

Oh yea, thats right. go to the damn core. what do you want to do? TREAT PATIENTS. HELP THEM. shut the hell up about all this political never-ending argument. does it go anywhere? remember, its for the PATIENTS. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU (if you're black, white, jewish, asian, indian, i dont fking care). let me say again: ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. dont get pissed yet. listen again. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. ok good. now you understand, hopefully.

the blanket "all" does not apply to you if you were trying to mediate. sorry if i offended you. i am not sorry for offending the others, however.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

All of you should not be doctors. end of story. i dont want a doctor who can't see and feel for an alternate interpretation of an issue. period.

Oh yea, thats right. go to the damn core. what do you want to do? TREAT PATIENTS. HELP THEM. shut the hell up about all this political never-ending argument. does it go anywhere? remember, its for the PATIENTS. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU (if you're black, white, jewish, asian, indian, i dont fking care). let me say again: ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. dont get pissed yet. listen again. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. ok good. now you understand, hopefully.

the blanket "all" does not apply to you if you were trying to mediate. sorry if i offended you. i am not sorry for offending the others, however.

Word!🙂

 

[beefballs]

you need a protection form an anonymous internet site, grow a pair and stand up for yourselfs-ether is a tool-so what, ignore him and contribute something substantial. Stop crying for the mods to ban everything that you find offensive

 

[LADoc00]

Hmm this thread turned into a monster. I began it because although I knew race was a factor, when I went through the whole process (long ago) it didnt appear to be THE FACTOR it is now.

In my non-scientific perusings of mdapplicants, RACIAL STATUS is the single most important factor for deciding whether you are accepted to medical school, hands down. Nothing is even remotely statistically as important. The thing that baffles me is why everyone doesnt just learn Spanish, spend a year or 2 in Mexico doing immersion/community service and check off Hispanic...there is no legal definition of Hispanic, no one can ask you to genetically prove it and as far as I remember the ethnicity ?s usually begin with "what ethnic groups do you *feel* you represent (you can check more than one"...No one can take you to court for fraud, you could even change your name or go by another "given name", presumably in honor of someone you worked closely with in your year/s abroad...

This seems like a win-win for everyone, you get into medical school, medical schools get someone who has demonstrated they can work with the underserved and knows the language and impoverished Mexicans got some free labor to build a house or teach basic biology.....or is that a win-win-win situation?

In conclusion, 'Hispanic' nomenclature is not confined to burro-riding mestizos. Redefine yourself.

 

[1Path]

you need a protection form an anonymous internet site, grow a pair and stand up for yourselfs-ether is a tool-so what, ignore him and contribute something substantial. Stop crying for the mods to ban everything that you find offensive

Got a better idea. Why don't all the Asian dudes getting rejected from med school, "grow a pair" and stop bitchin about AA when they don't get in. Opps, my bad, is that a genetically impossible request?😕
Dam ignorant a$$ stereotypes suck, don't they!

 

[baylormed]

Hmm this thread turned into a monster. I began it because although I knew race was a factor, when I went through the whole process (long ago) it didnt appear to be THE FACTOR it is now.

In my non-scientific perusings of mdapplicants, RACIAL STATUS is the single most important factor for deciding whether you are accepted to medical school, hands down. Nothing is even remotely statistically as important. The thing that baffles me is why everyone doesnt just learn Spanish, spend a year or 2 in Mexico doing immersion/community service and check off Hispanic...there is no legal definition of Hispanic, no one can ask you to genetically prove it and as far as I remember the ethnicity ?s usually begin with "what ethnic groups do you *feel* you represent (you can check more than one"...No one can take you to court for fraud, you could even change your name or go by another "given name", presumably in honor of someone you worked closely with in your year/s abroad...

This seems like a win-win for everyone, you get into medical school, medical schools get someone who has demonstrated they can work with the underserved and knows the language and impoverished Mexicans got some free labor to build a house or teach basic biology.....or is that a win-win-win situation?

In conclusion, 'Hispanic' nomenclature is not confined to burro-riding mestizos. Redefine yourself.

Yes, because all native "Hispanics" are burro-riding mestizos.

Get a clue.




** I swear I won't post in this thread again, I swear I won't post in this thread again, I swear I won't post in this thread again**

 

[learss]

Hmm this thread turned into a monster. I began it because although I knew race was a factor, when I went through the whole process (long ago) it didnt appear to be THE FACTOR it is now.

In my non-scientific perusings of mdapplicants, RACIAL STATUS is the single most important factor for deciding whether you are accepted to medical school, hands down. Nothing is even remotely statistically as important. The thing that baffles me is why everyone doesnt just learn Spanish, spend a year or 2 in Mexico doing immersion/community service and check off Hispanic...there is no legal definition of Hispanic, no one can ask you to genetically prove it and as far as I remember the ethnicity ?s usually begin with "what ethnic groups do you *feel* you represent (you can check more than one"...No one can take you to court for fraud, you could even change your name or go by another "given name", presumably in honor of someone you worked closely with in your year/s abroad...

This seems like a win-win for everyone, you get into medical school, medical schools get someone who has demonstrated they can work with the underserved and knows the language and impoverished Mexicans got some free labor to build a house or teach basic biology.....or is that a win-win-win situation?

In conclusion, 'Hispanic' nomenclature is not confined to burro-riding mestizos. Redefine yourself.

So you are basing your opinion on mdapplicants.com, which on the honesty of student putting in accurate data. Hmmm. As someone who actually worked on an admissions committee, let me give you a couple of tidbits regarding AA:

1) There are no quotas, it is against the law. The Supreme Court case is called Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, which barred quotas in college admissions. Look it up.

2) If AA was the biggest factor in medical school admissions, then why is the acceptance rate of blacks lower than whites and asians: Here is data I pulled from the AAMC website regarding matriculants in medical school in 2005.

Race Acceptance Rate Applicants Accepted
Asian 47% 7286 3451
Black 40% 2809 1121
Hispanic 49% 2708 1325
White 50% 21740 10922
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005sumyrs.htm

3) One of the biggest factors in admissions are legacies and children of potential large gift donors.

 

[LADoc00]

Yes, because all native "Hispanics" are burro-riding mestizos.

Get a clue.




** I swear I won't post in this thread again, I swear I won't post in this thread again, I swear I won't post in this thread again**

EH? that is my point, Hispānus encompasses a huge umbrella of ethnic groups, it could defined almost anyone of European hertiage, pan Pacific ancestery or decendants of the aboriginees of the Americas.

Why should med school load up on mestizos and creoles when crillios Pureza de Sangre have an equal claim on the title?

 

[LADoc00]

So you are basing your opinion on mdapplicants.com, which on the honesty of student putting in accurate data. Hmmm. As someone who actually worked on an admissions committee, let me give you a couple of tidbits regarding AA:

1) There are no quotas, it is against the law. The Supreme Court case is called Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, which barred quotas in college admissions. Look it up.

2) If AA was the biggest factor in medical school admissions, then why is the acceptance rate of blacks lower than whites and asians: Here is data I pulled from the AAMC website regarding matriculants in medical school in 2005.

Race Acceptance Rate Applicants Accepted
Asian 47% 7286 3451
Black 40% 2809 1121
Hispanic 49% 2708 1325
White 50% 21740 10922
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005sumyrs.htm

3) One of the biggest factors in admissions are legacies and children of potential large gift donors.

Acceptance rates are a meaningless indicator of individual success for admission. Meaning, all things being equal in terms of stats, race trumps all. I cant speak to legacies because I havent seen the data.

Quotas maybe illegal but if you read Bakke vs the UC Regents, schools may consider race a factor in admission. Obviously the Supreme Court didnt intend it to be the super factor it has become. If this was revisited in court, medcom actions would be likely considered illegal.


The biggest problem medcoms have is they cannot possibly define race or ethnicity and actually police it without massive infractions of civil liberties. You cant call an applicant's mom and ask whether she is a Mexican, you cant without getting a huge lawsuit slapped on your ass.

The point is in America, people can be whatever the hell they want to be. If I want to be a proud member of the African-American community tommorrow, guess what? I will be. You cant stop it.

If Ranesh Putcha from Banglore wants to learn Spanish, do service work in Mexico and change his name to Jorge Putcha, guess what..he is Hispanic. What are you gonna do? Hire private detectives to police 10,000 applications? Risk ACLU suits, FBI inquiries, school donors withdrawing contributions?? Never.

Seriously, you cant stop it and the best of all people can deceive you with an absolutely clear conscience!! I LOVE IT!

 

[Cirrus83]

You're kinda beating a dead horse here obviously (and seriously how did you JUST come to this conclusion), but seriously some URMs have actually overcome things that you haven't had to, and it does mean something.
However obviously on the flip side, some people in those URMs are actually from fairly well off families, and some AA's come from disadvantaged backgrounds-but hey on the AMCAS they ask you if you had a disadvantaged childhood somehow anyway.

Now, what I'm ACTUALLY annoyed by is how they treat AA's and Jewish-Americans differently. For years they quotaed Jewish people in all the schools, but they finally got rid of it (and perhaps rightly so). So now Jewish-Americans are basically quotaed as caucasians. AA's however, get quotaed separately, so they're still being put at an extra disadvantage to Jewish-Americans even though neither of them are URMs in the medical field. So it's not the preferences for URMs that bother me so much as the unbalanced quotaing against AA's compared to other similarly priveledged people.

But then again according to AMCAS I apparently come from an underserved community (dunno if this actually does anything for me though-it's still in NYC).

Oh and NO it's not called a straight up quota (since those are technically illegal) but it is in reality a quota. U-Mich lost that lawsuit again their quotas on AA's in their undergrad admissions, but they managed to keep it for their graduate schools (go figure why the court would think it's ok to get rid of it for undergrad but should keep it for grad...very odd).

And btw, as an AA I find it kind of odd to find my own interests somewhat in opposite of those of other minorities as far as these quotas go, because if they got rid of race as a factor I'd be in a better position. But the truth is that some people do deserve extra credit for having overcome things I haven't overcome-so I don't really want to get rid of some sort of helping system for that either. What I still would like though is for them to stop friggin' treating AA's as some super-smart race that should be accepted less often than caucasians, because not only are caucasians not particularly disadvantaged, but the whole concept of race is total crap to begin with (and it's arbitrary btw, you can separate people into as many races as you feel like-the English and Irish were always in a racial hatred kinda thing for years), and it obviously doesn't automatically tell whether someone was actually disadvantaged or not.

Hopefully they figure out a better way to help disadvantaged people other than by just race. But in the meantime you just gotta play the game with the cards you're dealt.

By the way, even if AA's get accepted at a higher percentage, please do realize that AA immigrants come from the TOP 0.1% most educated populations of their home countries. So you're taking the top 0.1% of people and saying that their 47% acceptance rate is higher than other people's 45%. Well uhh no crap. If you took a sample of caucasian applicants whose parents were from the top 0.1% most educated people you'd probably get a different score too.

 

[LADoc00]

You're kinda beating a dead horse here obviously (and seriously how did you JUST come to this conclusion), but seriously some URMs have actually overcome things that you haven't had to, and it does mean something.

Hmm, Im intrigued how can checking off an URM equate at all to "overcoming things others havent"..and how could you infer anyone on this site has also not overcome those things...your ignorance is mildly amusing.

Keep the URM myth alive Cirrus...so future generations can look back and chuckle at the idiocy of it all.

 

[sentry]

Hmm, Im intrigued how can checking off an URM equate at all to "overcoming things others havent"..and how could you infer anyone on this site has also not overcome those things...your ignorance is mildly amusing.

Keep the URM myth alive Cirrus...so future generations can look back and chuckle at the idiocy of it all.

Exactly -- I completely understand the point of view of people who talk about AA in the light that it leads to doctors serving in disadvantaged communities. But when you try to tell me that because I'm white that I've had a perfect life, you are showing your own prejudice. Poverty and bad experiences aren't unique to any one racial group -- so stop trying to claim that you are the only ones who have to "overcome" anything

 

[Kikaku21]

Yes, and what do you call it when someone is given admission because the adcomm wanted to exercise their "latitude" based on race? Oh let me think ....It's not coming to me..... hold on... Oh how stupid of me it's called prejudice. That's right, if someone is given a preference because of their race, it is called prejudice, racism, etc...

Now if they took into account socioeconomic factors, I wouldn't be here bitching about it because I would know that all those rich URM-wannabe kids who had private tutors starting from elementary wouldn't get any preferential treatment.

And my main problem with AA is not that it's helping out the minorities, it's just the cases that AA helps out are so ridiculously not disadvantaged, specially when it comes to the top private colleges. I mean come on, this guy with a 1230 got into the top engineering school. And what pisses me off was that in math competitions my score was always, always at least 3 times higher than his. I know this is probably one case, but I'm just speaking from my own personal experience.
Maybe if everybody here said a little bit of smt about their experience with AA, then I would be able to open my mind a bit.

Actually, this post really goes for ALL of the complainers, not just the above quoted.

Life isn't fair. Get over it. Feel lucky that there is even a process that levels the playing field. That, with good numbers and hard work, you actually CAN get into medical school. There are places in the world where you are screwed if you weren't born into it. Here we are, in the fairest system in the world and you are pissing and moaning about 15%. Actually, according to your post, you are only pissed about the few URMs who are actually pretty well off, and are getting in based on race alone, which is even less than 15%.

You are going to get into medical school and you will get to do exactly what you want to do with your life, which really puts you in the luckiest 1% in the world. So shut up and get over yourself. Why don't you channel you anger towards problems that really matter... like that 1/6th of the worlds population lives in extreme poverty, or global warming, or HIV, or Malaria, or SOMETHING WORTHWHILE that you can ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT.

I'm so f***ing tired of the whining. Jesus.

 

[BlackDr2b]

To all you complainers, get over it. Take a look in the mirror and do what you need to do to get in. Quit blaming us and take responsibility for yourself. If you don't get in it's your own fault, not ours. We didn't take your spot. We work just as hard as anybody else and when we get in to med school it's because we deserved it. STEP YO GAME UP AND YOU WON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO WORRY ABOUT! 👍

 

[BigRedPremed]

So you are basing your opinion on mdapplicants.com, which on the honesty of student putting in accurate data. Hmmm. As someone who actually worked on an admissions committee, let me give you a couple of tidbits regarding AA:

1) There are no quotas, it is against the law. The Supreme Court case is called Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, which barred quotas in college admissions. Look it up.

2) If AA was the biggest factor in medical school admissions, then why is the acceptance rate of blacks lower than whites and asians: Here is data I pulled from the AAMC website regarding matriculants in medical school in 2005.

Race Acceptance Rate Applicants Accepted
Asian 47% 7286 3451
Black 40% 2809 1121
Hispanic 49% 2708 1325
White 50% 21740 10922
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005sumyrs.htm

3) One of the biggest factors in admissions are legacies and children of potential large gift donors.

This is the dumbest use of statistics ever. Do black applicants have equal stats as asian applicants?

I don't even know why people are arguing this: it's very clear that there is a different set of standards for URM's. THAT'S WHAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS! It doesn't mean that every URM took advantage of those standards. It just means that some URM's did.

 

[Avalanche21]

This is quite the offensive thread. As an Asian, I don't believe Asians are inherently smarter. Our culture usually has a hard work ethic, but that doesn't mean we as a race are superior. This is pathetic. What's with everyone hating black people anyway?

 

[Rafa]

This is quite the offensive thread. As an Asian, I don't believe Asians are inherently smarter. Our culture usually has a hard work ethic, but that doesn't mean we as a race are superior. This is pathetic. What's with everyone hating black people anyway?

It's easier than actually improving their applications (ie studying for the MCAT, volunteering, becoming nicer people, etc...)

 

[learss]

This is the dumbest use of statistics ever. Do black applicants have equal stats as asian applicants?

I don't even know why people are arguing this: it's very clear that there is a different set of standards for URM's. THAT'S WHAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS! It doesn't mean that every URM took advantage of those standards. It just means that some URM's did.

If AA was so prevalent in medical school admissions, as some people say it is, then wouldn't URM applicants have a higher acceptance rate into medical school? If the average GPA of accepted students at Johns Hopkins is 3.8, don't you think that URMs have that GPA?

How do you know if there was a different set of standards for URMs? I guess you work in medical school admissions. Also, please tell me how URMs take advantage of AA.

 

[ether^O^]

This is the dumbest use of statistics ever. Do black applicants have equal stats as asian applicants?

I don't even know why people are arguing this: it's very clear that there is a different set of standards for URM's. THAT'S WHAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS! It doesn't mean that every URM took advantage of those standards. It just means that some URM's did.

👍 👍 !!! AA is implemented to make something that's uneven (stats) even (by reverse racism/discrimination). If URMs and Asians/Whites had the same stats, we wouldn't be here arguing about AA.

Also, none of you have answered my question: How many of you blacks (Rafa, Riceman, etc.) arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?

 

[hucm2009]

👍 👍 !!! AA is implemented to make something that's uneven (stats) even (by reverse racism/discrimination). If URMs and Asians/Whites had the same stats, we wouldn't be here arguing about AA.

Also, none of you have answered my question: How many of you blacks (Rafa, Riceman, etc.) arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?

Suck it up and stop whining about it. With all the whining you've been doing you coulda been studying and making your app better. And i bet you'll blame urms when u dont get in 🙄

 

[Stolenspatulas]

👍 👍 !!! AA is implemented to make something that's uneven (stats) even (by reverse racism/discrimination). If URMs and Asians/Whites had the same stats, we wouldn't be here arguing about AA.

Also, none of you have answered my question: How many of you blacks (Rafa, Riceman, etc.) arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?

please, for fck-sake, THINK of the patient. Have you ever been to an urban center? Any big city? Have you ever noticed that much of the patient demographic is black or hispanic-- gangmembers, druggies, etc. Don't you think that since its established that URMs tend to serve their communities, that they should be possibly be helped along the way? Don't you think that maybe URMs that go to a top med school can be an alternate role model for these kids (as opposed to an athlete or rap-star). THINK about it. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. THE WORLD WILL NOT BE WORSE IF YOU DONT GET TO BE A DOCTOR. But if we didnt have this URM classification, the world WOULD be worse.

BTW, im not black. nor am I wealthy at all. Im actually Indian. I have to take out loans for medical school. my parents were born in africa and never went to college. and i have to check south asian on my AMCAS. Stop it. You're so stubborn. See the big picture. Stop seeing the self-portrait.

 

[psipsina]

I apologize if this has already been said but I truely couldn't have read thru this entire thread this early in the morning without vomitting into my coffee which would suck.

Ok, so the most valid argument I've ever heard about AA is that in the modern world where there is a small amount of URMs who have all the financial and educational opportuinities once associated with wealthy whites, and some white people live in trailer parks, it should be based on economic factors rather than enthicity. Well it is people. I really don't know what we are arguing about. There is this thing called disadvantaged status that you qualify for regardless of race if you really didn't have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. I applied thru this system, my father died when I was 10 leaving me to be raised by my mother who sufferes from severe paranoid type psychoisis . . .I was on my own by 16 and finished high school and put myself thru college while dealing with her drama like the call when she ended up in a homeless shelter. I think I was definitely considered at some places I wouldn't have been otherwise, like UCLA with a 3.4 and a 32. And I do think its appropriate to have the two different statuses, URM and disadvantaged. Just being a URM in this country has unique challenges even if you are from a wealthy family (trust me, try to get an experience where you might be the minority and discriminated against, until you've experienced it you really can't speak to the issue). And URMs statistically choose to serve populations desperately in need of care which is an entirely other reason to recruit these people. Anyway, my final word on this is, if your stats are good and your ECs, personaly statement and interview personality are good, your coveted spot in medical school really isn't going to be stolen by a URM. Most strong applicants get offers at multiple schools, so if one spot is given to someone who is disadvantaged in some way, or might be willing to serve an underserved population, it really isn't going to stop you from going to medical school. And if your application isn't that strong, then its your responsibility to go out there and make it so, do stuff to strengthen it, get better reqs, score higher on the MCAT, take a masters program to boost your GPA. Its all about personal responsibility folks, so please stop whining about the relatively very small number of people who benefit from AA (thats why they're called URMs after all). And honestly, would you trade your life in for a truely disadvantaged one to get the admission boost . . . I don't think so.

/Rant . ..

 

[psipsina]

See the big picture. Stop seeing the self-portrait.

👍 👍 👍

 

[riceman04]

👍 👍 !!! AA is implemented to make something that's uneven (stats) even (by reverse racism/discrimination). If URMs and Asians/Whites had the same stats, we wouldn't be here arguing about AA.

Also, none of you have answered my question: How many of you blacks (Rafa, Riceman, etc.) arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?

I'll tell you right now I am from an upper middle class family....but I am also sure that I am holding my own when it comes to the MCAT and my GPA.

Did well in undergrad...and plan to kick your ass in medical school competition.

So let me guess...you want to know what my parents socioeconomic status is so that you can make one of those sweeping generalizations, right? Go right ahead while I sit back and just laugh.

Also for the sake of address my race please refer to me as African-American...that is unless you don't mind me refering to you as Oriental...the list goes on (but I will refrain from saying the rest)

 

[drsax]

I apologize if this has already been said but I truely couldn't have read thru this entire thread this early in the morning without vomitting into my coffee which would suck.

Ok, so the most valid argument I've ever heard about AA is that in the modern world where there is a small amount of URMs who have all the financial and educational opportuinities once associated with wealthy whites, and some white people live in trailer parks, it should be based on economic factors rather than enthicity. Well it is people. I really don't know what we are arguing about. There is this thing called disadvantaged status that you qualify for regardless of race if you really didn't have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. I applied thru this system, my father died when I was 10 leaving me to be raised by my mother who sufferes from severe paranoid type psychoisis . . .I was on my own by 16 and finished high school and put myself thru college while dealing with her drama like the call when she ended up in a homeless shelter. I think I was definitely considered at some places I wouldn't have been otherwise, like UCLA with a 3.4 and a 32. And I do think its appropriate to have the two different statuses, URM and disadvantaged. Just being a URM in this country has unique challenges even if you are from a wealthy family (trust me, try to get an experience where you might be the minority and discriminated against, until you've experienced it you really can't speak to the issue). And URMs statistically choose to serve populations desperately in need of care which is an entirely other reason to recruit these people. Anyway, my final word on this is, if your stats are good and your ECs, personaly statement and interview personality are good, your coveted spot in medical school really isn't going to be stolen by a URM. Most strong applicants get offers at multiple schools, so if one spot is given to someone who is disadvantaged in some way, or might be willing to serve an underserved population, it really isn't going to stop you from going to medical school. And if your application isn't that strong, then its your responsibility to go out there and make it so, do stuff to strengthen it, get better reqs, score higher on the MCAT, take a masters program to boost your GPA. Its all about personal responsibility folks, so please stop whining about the relatively very small number of people who benefit from AA (thats why they're called URMs after all). And honestly, would you trade your life in for a truely disadvantaged one to get the admission boost . . . I don't think so.

/Rant . ..

Extremely good post! Honestly that seems to be the problem. The majority in this country just think since we are just ONE generation away from legal descrimination that it doesn't exist. What people don't get is that it isn't the amount of money your family has. It is d@m near impossible to explain how it feels to be an URM to people who will probably never experience what it is like to be the minority day in and day out.

 

[TPROrgoTutor]

AA is not fair. AA sets lower standards for URM's. Its a fact, but get over it. There is nothign we can do about it, everyone knows it is not fair. Just improve your application and go through the hell that everyone else does in applying.

 

[riceman04]

please, for fck-sake, THINK of the patient. Have you ever been to an urban center? Any big city? Have you ever noticed that much of the patient demographic is black or hispanic-- gangmembers, druggies, etc. Don't you think that since its established that URMs tend to serve their communities, that they should be possibly be helped along the way? Don't you think that maybe URMs that go to a top med school can be an alternate role model for these kids (as opposed to an athlete or rap-star). THINK about it. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. THE WORLD WILL NOT BE WORSE IF YOU DONT GET TO BE A DOCTOR. But if we didnt have this URM classification, the world WOULD be worse.

BTW, im not black. nor am I wealthy at all. Im actually Indian. I have to take out loans for medical school. my parents were born in africa and never went to college. and i have to check south asian on my AMCAS. Stop it. You're so stubborn. See the big picture. Stop seeing the self-portrait.

While I do agree that there are some issues with the policy (yet still support its ultimate goal)...I applaud the stance that you take!!!!

Best of luck to you in this daunting process

 

[beefballs]

Got a better idea. Why don't all the Asian dudes getting rejected from med school, "grow a pair" and stop bitchin about AA when they don't get in. Opps, my bad, is that a genetically impossible request?😕
Dam ignorant a$$ stereotypes suck, don't they!

not asian-nor would I be offfended if you had guesses correctly-keep on fightin the power tough guy

 

[dhoonlee]

Ahh. The eternal debate rages on. I love these forums.

 

[stinastina]

I resent that. THE white man? Don't put blame on "white people". And this "white" man plans to return home to practice in an underserved area. Though I'm more of a peach/tan color...do you think a patient will ask for a physician of a specific skin color? God I hope we can rise above skin color. I won't go out of my way to say I'm not racist, but I'll show you with my life's work. Let's go

Actually, that does happen. I have worked at a hospital where patients specifically ask for white doctors.

 

[colbgw02]

not that i'm saying anything that hasn't already been said, but...

1) stop complaining about affirmative action. much complaining assumes that a URM is less qualified than you, which you simply cannot prove.

2) affirmative action is/should be considered a stop-gap measure. unfortunately, it is/has been used as a solution. anyone who is truly concerned about race relations should be much more upset about this nation's abject failure to sufficiently improve underlying issues - such as poor primary and secondary schooling for inner-city students. regretably, the current political climate precludes the concept of scaling back affirmative action in favor of a more permanent solution.

 

[drhannibal]

Alright, I'm sick of this thread and fed up with reasonable arguments getting overlooked in favor of the more inflammatory ones. Instead, I'd like to start a semi-poll to determine the efficacy of such threads.

What do the AA threads do for you?

Reading the posts on these threads has really changed some of my opinions:

I sort of see the other side of the issue but still hold my original belief:

These threads are pissing me off/making me think SDNers are annoying: drhannibal

These threads have polarized me even more to the side I agreed with in the first place and have made me even less tolerant of the other side's opinions:


It'd be nice if people could start voting for one of the categories, and that way we can determine if these threads are at-all effective at accomplishing their goals. Hopefully the result of this will be either fewer AA threads in the future or at least a more focused and logical discussion in the AA threads to come.

Thanks!

 

[riceman04]

In The Bell Curve, Herrnstein and Murray report mean IQ scores for East Asians and Jewish Americans of 106 and 113 (on a scale where Whites = 103), respectively.

There are so many flaws in stupid man's argument.

 

[BigRedPremed]

How do you know if there was a different set of standards for URMs?

Are we going backwards here? Instead of debating the merits of AA, we're now debating whether it even exists???😕

 

[ether^O^]

Alright, I'm sick of this thread and fed up with reasonable arguments getting overlooked in favor of the more inflammatory ones. Instead, I'd like to start a semi-poll to determine the efficacy of such threads.

What do the AA threads do for you?

Reading the posts on these threads has really changed some of my opinions:

I sort of see the other side of the issue but still hold my original belief:

These threads are pissing me off/making me think SDNers are annoying: drhannibal

These threads have polarized me even more to the side I agreed with in the first place and have made me even less tolerant of the other side's opinions:


It'd be nice if people could start voting for one of the categories, and that way we can determine if these threads are at-all effective at accomplishing their goals. Hopefully the result of this will be either fewer AA threads in the future or at least a more focused and logical discussion in the AA threads to come.

Thanks!

There's already a poll on affirmative action on SDN, and only 20% of the members here support it. End of discussion.

 

[DoctaJay]

I've decided to unsubscribe to this thread. Intelligent conversation ended probably on page 1.

 

[drhannibal]

There's already a poll on affirmative action on SDN, and only 20% of the members here support it. End of discussion.

Thanks for your insight, but you missed the point of my post. I'm not asking how many ppl are in favor of AA; I'm asking how many actually find these sorts of threads/discussions helpful.

Next time you try to wow us with your acumen, please be sure to first read the post you're responding to. And what exactly does "probationary status" mean? I don't get why you're still here.

 

[ether^O^]

A lot of people in this forum have listed the main reason for AA as: To increase the number of URM physicians, because these physicians are more likely to treat URM patients. First of all, if AA is used in med school admissions for this reason, how can you justify the use of AA for college admissions, job opportunities, etc. (because AA doesn't ONLY apply to medical school)?

I believe this problem can be addessed through other means (that are not racist/discriminatory):

1) Increase the number of URM applicants to DO programs. Because URM numbers (GPA/MCAT) are generally lower and correspond with stats for DO schools, they will have a much easier time getting into these programs. And because DOs are physicians and can do all the things MDs do, I really fail to see why there are not more URM applicants/matriculants in these programs (unless the URM applicants have such big egos-which is a terrible trait to have as physicians-that they refuse to apply to these schools). Having more URM DOs will greatly benefit the URM patient population.

2) Increase the # of black applicants to medical school through improvements in primary and secondary education. Yes, this will require time and money, but will result in much less hatred and misunderstanding between URMs (for wanting to increase their #s in medical schools and saying that non-URMs are racist for not supporting AA) and non-URMs (for thinking that URM physicians are unqualified and only got into med school because they are URMs, and wanting AA-a racist measure-to be abolished).

 

[hucm2009]

A lot of people in this forum have listed the main reason for AA as: To increase the number of URM physicians, because these physicians are more likely to treat URM patients. First of all, if AA is used in med school admissions for this reason, how can you justify the use of AA for college admissions, job opportunities, etc. (because AA doesn't ONLY apply to medical school).

I believe this problem can be addessed through other means (that are not racist/discriminatory):

1) Increase the number of URM applicants to DO programs. Because URM numbers (GPA/MCAT) are generally lower and correspond with stats for DO schools, they will have a much easier time getting into these programs. And because DOs are physicians and can do all the things MDs do, I really fail to see why there are not more URM applicants/matriculants in these programs (unless the URM applicants have such big egos-which is a terrible trait to have as physicians-that they refuse to apply to these schools). Having more URM DOs will greatly benefit the URM patient population.

2) Increase the # of black applicants to medical school through improvements in primary and secondary education. Yes, this will require time and money, but will result in much less hatred and misunderstanding between URMs (for wanting to increase their #s in medical schools and saying that non-URMs are racist for not supporting AA) and non-URMs (for thinking that URM physicians are unqualified and only got into med school because they are URMs, and wanting AA-a racist measure-to be abolished).

OMG man give it up. did these really deserve a whole new thread about AA? DO school doesnt even have the same mission or way of learning as MD school. And of course primary and secondary education should be improved, but we all know thats probably not going to happen. Regardless, that point had nothing to do with why AA is use in med school admissions in the first place. Like someone said before, healthcare is for the PATIENTS. Not some random kid who thinks he deserves to be a doctor but doesnt have the stats to get into med school. Please go study and stop letting AA control your life.

 

[jtorres]

serioulsy, move on. how can you expect anyone on this site to take you seriously? especially after the comments you have made. go check in with your probation officer.

 

[8744]

Wow. Two hot-button issues in one post. Affirmative action and DO vs MD. If you had used the words "top tier" you would have had the trifecta.