AA totally out of control?

[Beau Geste]

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My mom came back to our small town in rural southern Illinois after she went to med school. She had a lot invested in the community - her family (us), prior job, friends, etc.

So there's one example of a white woman going back to the small town instead of a suburban cush job.

Some can argue it's not as hard as an inner-city job, but she contracts herself out to the state and does physicals for the local maximum security prison and its psych ward, and that can be tough in itself.

Most new physicians are in their mid-late 20's and have been doing nothing but school. Maybe some don't go back to their "roots" because they want to see more of what the world has to offer than what was at home. If I can from a place that was disappointing to me, I might be less inclined to return.

I don't know enough history to comment on affirmative action itself, however personally I cringe to think that someone got into med school because of their color vs. skill because a "quota" was needed regardless of whether the admitted was white or black or red or yellow or purple. However, if two students are essentially equal in GPA and MCAT, then personal history should come into play, and the best person period should get the spot.

I want to go to a doctor who is educated, not popular.

 

[jbayne04]

No, what I'm SPECIFICALLY saying is that ONE aspect of is affirmative action is to address the issue providing more minority physicians. But what you haven't addressed for reasons I can only guess, is why there's a shortage of docs in places like Appalachia when there are thousands of white med school graduates?

And BTW,it isn't about checking a box spot, opps I meant sport, it's about what you DO when finish med school.

1Path, I believe that they are not trying to explain WHY there are fewer physicians in rural "white" areas despite a greater number of "white" graduates, but rather to question the reasoning: if they don't return home to practice, then why would URMs? [please jump in if I'm off base]

 

[1Path]

1Path, I believe that they are not trying to explain WHY there are fewer physicians in rural "white" areas despite a greater number of "white" graduates, but rather to question the reasoning: if they don't return home to practice, then why would URMs? [please jump in if I'm off base]

The question isn't why would URM's, the question is why DO URM's often return to serve AND/OR CHOOSE to serve in disadvantaged/underserved areas or like me, commit to research which HAS and will continue to HAVE components that address underserved/minority populations in the US. For minorities, the answer is obvious, but for others who choose to get caught up in the AA debate, the answer couldn't be had if there was a neon sign on your forehead that siad so.

Do a search around SDN for other examples.😉

 

[1Path]

But what you haven't addressed for reasons I can only guess, is why there's a shortage of docs in places like Appalachia when there are thousands of white med school graduates?
.

I'd also like to know WHY white students don't get hassled for not addressing a need when they finish med school in the same way URM's do. Or is it that too many of you fall into that category of "say what you need to say to get in since AA is keeping you out, then forget about the commitment you made.🙄

 

[takanori gomi]

What bothers me and Chuck Norris is that some URM applicants that I know have intentionally lied about going back to their community to serve. URMs or any other premed that lie on their applications need a high round kick to the face, courtesy of Chuck Norris.

 

[sentry]

The question isn't why would URM's, the question is why DO URM's often return to serve AND/OR CHOOSE to serve in disadvantaged/underserved areas or like me, commit to research which HAS and will continue to HAVE components that address underserved/minority populations in the US. For minorities, the answer is obvious, but for others who choose to get caught up in the AA debate, the answer couldn't be had if there was a neon sign on your forehead that siad so.

Do a search around SDN for other examples.😉

I'm not saying this to get involved in this argument, but rather out of curiosity. From what statistics do you say that URM's are far more likely to serve in underserved areas? I don't doubt that such data could exist, I've just never seen it. Post a link or something if you have it.

 

[DoctaJay]

My mom came back to our small town in rural southern Illinois after she went to med school. She had a lot invested in the community - her family (us), prior job, friends, etc.

So there's one example of a white woman going back to the small town instead of a suburban cush job.

Some can argue it's not as hard as an inner-city job, but she contracts herself out to the state and does physicals for the local maximum security prison and its psych ward, and that can be tough in itself.

Most new physicians are in their mid-late 20's and have been doing nothing but school. Maybe some don't go back to their "roots" because they want to see more of what the world has to offer than what was at home. If I can from a place that was disappointing to me, I might be less inclined to return.

I don't know enough history to comment on affirmative action itself, however personally I cringe to think that someone got into med school because of their color vs. skill because a "quota" was needed regardless of whether the admitted was white or black or red or yellow or purple. However, if two students are essentially equal in GPA and MCAT, then personal history should come into play, and the best person period should get the spot.

I want to go to a doctor who is educated, not popular.

I had an interview at the University of Maryland on Monday. Its a predominantly majority school. As the white dean of admissions was talking to the group of interviewee's he mentioned how he got into the whole admissions area. He told us that in the 80's he came onto the faculty at the school of medicine. Well 4 years later, he stormed to the admissions office to talk with the current Dean of Admissions. You see, Dr. Foxwell (the guy talking to us) just couldn't understand who was admitting (as he described it) these cynical, nasty, obnoxious medical students to the school. He wanted to know what the criteria for choosing students was. Well the current dean of admissions told him to become an adcomm to make a difference; and as he served he discovered that at that time (as with most medical schools at the time) Maryland was admitting people solely on their MCAT and GPA. Well, 2 years later he became Dean of Admissions himself. He told us all this because he wanted to let us know that Maryland does not choose students solely on MCAT and GPA because that doesn't mean that they will be admitting the kind of students they are looking for. He said that what they do is this: THEY MAKE SURE THAT STUDENT MEETS THEIR MINIMUM STANDARD OF MCAT AND GPA. ONCE THE STUDENT PASSES THAT MARK, THEN EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THEIR APPLICATION IS EVALUATED TO SEE IF THEY SCHOOL WANTS THEM.



So it wasn't about equality of MCAT and GPA. Once that applicant has met their standards in terms of scores, then the other aspects of the applicant is evaluated. The other aspect could be that the person is native american, or that he/she was a college athlete, etc. The MCAT and GPA is just used to see if you can handle medical classes. As much as we premeds would love for it to be all about scores...its not, so that is why we try to market ourselves as best as possible with other activities. It baffles me that people keep making these threads on SDN. What is the overall purpose? At the end of these threads have any policies of medical schools changed? Did a medical school (from reading this thread) decide to drop my application because I'm a URM and accept a non-URM because he/she has a higher GPA and MCAT score? The truth is that nothing has been changed; and nothing probably will change until the percentages of URMs in medicine is to the AAMCs liking. To megboo, I'm not talking about you in particular.

 

[DoctaJay]

That's the problem with AA, whether you want it or not you're going to be until the person(s) knows more about you. Does every URM deserve to be marginalized? No but the fact is, no matter how small the percentage, there is going to be people who should be there wearing the white coat smiling but their not because of "diversity's" sake. And that is the real problem, a disconnect between the intended use of checking that URM box and then those who check the box when the only diversity they're bringing is a different pigment color. So the equation for medical school then becomes: GPA x10, MCAT x10 + density of melanin x .5 👍

You should go to a Michican medical school:

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/sept06/michigan.htm

 

[jbayne04]

1Path- if URMs DO return home to practice in greater numbers, then why do you think this is so? Are URMs really hassled to do so?

I hope to return home to practice in my underserved area, too. Hopefully we can make a difference

 

[DoctaJay]

I'm not saying this to get involved in this argument, but rather out of curiosity. From what statistics do you say that URM's are far more likely to serve in underserved areas? I don't doubt that such data could exist, I've just never seen it. Post a link or something if you have it.

"According to statistics in the AAMC publication "Minorities in Medical Education: Facts and Figures 2005," physicians from minority groups are more likely to work with minority patients, who, historically, have been medically underserved. More than half of African-American medical school graduates surveyed said they planned to work in an underserved area, compared with less than one-fifth of Caucasian graduates."

Found at: https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...1&cftoken=38B2ED97-24C3-4F2E-8A7C13D302C649BF

 

[jbayne04]

Thanks for the link. it does say URMs are more likely to serve- other than planning to serve, is there data on how many do serve underserved areas?

 

[Beau Geste]

I had an interview at the University of Maryland on Monday. Its a predominantly majority school. As the white dean of admissions was talking to the group of interviewee's he mentioned how he got into the whole admissions area. He told us that in the 80's he came onto the faculty at the school of medicine. Well 4 years later, he stormed to the admissions office to talk with the current Dean of Admissions. You see, Dr. Foxwell (the guy talking to us) just couldn't understand who was admitting (as he described it) these cynical, nasty, obnoxious medical students to the school. He wanted to know what the criteria for choosing students was. Well the current dean of admissions told him to become an adcomm to make a difference; and as he served he discovered that at that time (as with most medical schools at the time) Maryland was admitting people solely on their MCAT and GPA. Well, 2 years later he became Dean of Admissions himself. He told us all this because he wanted to let us know that Maryland does not choose students solely on MCAT and GPA because that doesn't mean that they will be admitting the kind of students they are looking for. He said that what they do is this: THEY MAKE SURE THAT STUDENT MEETS THEIR MINIMUM STANDARD OF MCAT AND GPA. ONCE THE STUDENT PASSES THAT MARK, THEN EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THEIR APPLICATION IS EVALUATED TO SEE IF THEY SCHOOL WANTS THEM.



So it wasn't about equality of MCAT and GPA. Once that applicant has met their standards in terms of scores, then the other aspects of the applicant is evaluated. The other aspect could be that the person is native american, or that he/she was a college athlete, etc. The MCAT and GPA is just used to see if you can handle medical classes. As much as we premeds would love for it to be all about scores...its not, so that is why we try to market ourselves as best as possible with other activities. It baffles me that people keep making these threads on SDN. What is the overall purpose? At the end of these threads have any policies of medical schools changed? Did a medical school (from reading this thread) decide to drop my application because I'm a URM and accept a non-URM because he/she has a higher GPA and MCAT score? The truth is that nothing has been changed; and nothing probably will change until the percentages of URMs in medicine is to the AAMCs liking. To megboo, I'm not talking about you in particular.

That's cool. Not everyone likes what I have to say, and I am really hesitant to discuss racial issues because I really have not had experiences where my race has held me back (I'm a white woman). It seems almost taboo for a white person to discuss race anymore, but it's an issue that is not going to go away.

When it comes to med school (and employment for that matter), I feel the best person should get the position (and sometimes that means a lower MCAT score/GPA but great everything else). I have serious doubts about anyone regardless of race who scores really low (< 23) on the MCAT getting into med school and becoming a physician, especially if their GPA is low too. Not everyone takes a great MCAT, but if the GPA is low too, something else is wrong.

If it were up to me, race wouldn't be an issue for qualification as a good candidate. Unfortunately not everyone feels that way.

 

[1Path]

1Path- if URMs DO return home to practice in greater numbers, then why do you think this is so?

Most of the URM's I know are VERY well aware of health disparities and the fact that even when accounting for SES and access to healthcare via health insurance, URM's are STILL more likely to die form diseases like cancer, diabetes, and hypertension, some of which at an alarmingly high rate.
"Returning home" means that you are willing to contribute to a growing health crisis in America, one that has not received near enough attention.

I manned an info table at the Susan G Gomen Race for the Cure this past summer, representing an orgization I volunteer with which provides free mammograms/follow-up care for poor and minority women. I was one of only 2 black women stationed at this one particular booth which had around 30 people representing similar organizations. Almost exclusively, EVERY black woman approached me or my partner with questions. I also noticed that the hispanic women who approaced our booth spoke mainly spoke directly to the hispanic women at the booth providing info. And I seriously doubt most of these women, many of whom were stricken with breast cancer, picked their informants out of prejudice. NO, I'd ventrue to say that they choose to speak with people they were most comfortable with and as future medical professionals, we have an obligation to make sure that cultural preferences are available and here's one reason why. While at the race I met a 29 year old black women with Stage III breast cancer who asked us about clinical trials at the NIH. In the course of giving her info, she shared with us her story of how for the past year, she had visited the emergency room of a local hospital 5 times complaing of chest pain, but had been dismissed with tylenol with codeine EVERY time. No mommogram aor ultrasound was done (not even a CBE) until her last visit when she was ordered to have a biopsy the follwoing day. Now do I think if she had seen a minority docotr it would have made a difference?? Hell yes!! Why? Because a black physician would 1) Likely have had a relative stricken with the disease, premenopause and know that it isn't rare and 2) Received training to KNOW that breast cancer in black women is a VERY different disease than it is in others, so a Dx of a 29 year-old wouldn't have been anything "strange" or new. A similar thing can be said of melanoma, black folks generally get it on the feet, white folks face and back, but you have to know from a culturlaly perspective to look for these differences in the first place.

Are URMs really hassled to do so?

If SDN is any indication, absolutely!! Havent you seen the comments in 2 million + threads relating to students of color who get admitted due to AA being "required" to serve in the hood?

 

[Mixtli]

I believe rural America is underserved. In rural parts of America (like where I am now doing preceptorship), a majority of white patients have NO insurance or are underinsured. The wait for specialist is 6 months. To make a living, the rural doctors often have to make house visits, visit correctional facilities, and treat patients with alcohol, opiate, and other types of drug addiction. Their salary isn't all that great either. I believe these doctors had to make the same sacrifices as doctors who serve the underserved in cities. I thought this type of problem only exists in inner-cities, but boy am I wrong. Many medical students in my class doing their preceptorships in rural areas of Vermont and New Hampshire report the similiar problems. Oh yeah, these doctors making these sacrifices aren't exactly URMs.

 

[1Path]

I believe rural America is underserved. In rural parts of America (like where I am now doing preceptorship), a majority of white patients have NO insurance or are underinsured. The wait for specialist is 6 months. To make a living, the rural doctors often have to make house visits, visit correctional facilities, and treat patients with alcohol, opiate, and other types of drug addiction. Their salary isn't all that great either. I believe these doctors had to make the same sacrifices as doctors who serve the underserved in cities. I thought this type of problem only exists in inner-cities, but boy am I wrong. Many medical students in my class doing their preceptorships in rural areas of Vermont and New Hampshire report the similiar problems. Oh yeah, these doctors making these sacrifices aren't exactly URMs.

When preceptorship routinely = practice, then we'll be on to something. 🙄 And personally, there's not a rural community in the US I'd live in again(although so many are beautiful) because so many are throwbacks to the Jim Crow era.

 

[Mixtli]

I guess I should be more clear, preceptorship = practice. Rural areas are so beautiful and the cadaver lungs are so nice and pink!

 

[Baylee]

On average, asian people have IQs almost 1 standard deviation above white people. This does not mean that an individual asian person is necessarily smarter than an individual white person but if everyone were taken together, asians would be on average smarter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_(Average_intelligence_gaps_among_races)

WHAT ABOUT JEWS? Specifically, Ashkenazi Jews.

Earl Raab, Director of the Perlmutter Institute for Jewish Advocacy at Brandeis University, pointed out...

"During the last three decades, Jews have made up 50% of the top two hundred intellectuals, 40 percent of American Nobel Prize Winners in science and economics, 20 percent of professors at the leading universities, 21 percent of high level civil servants, 40 percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington, 26% of the reporters, editors, and executives of the major print and broadcast media, 59 percent of the directors, writers, and producers of the fifty top-grossing motion pictures from 1965 to 1982, and 58 percent of directors, writers, and producers in two or more primetime television series." [pp 26-27]

AND WE MAKE UP LESS THAN 2% OF THE US POPULATION! NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL KICKING A--!

 

[Baylee]

WHAT ABOUT JEWS? Specifically, Ashkenazi Jews.

In The Bell Curve, Herrnstein and Murray report mean IQ scores for East Asians and Jewish Americans of 106 and 113 (on a scale where Whites = 103), respectively.

 

[Beau Geste]

When preceptorship routinely = practice, then we'll be on to something. 🙄 And personally, there's not a rural community in the US I'd live in again(although so many are beautiful) because so many are throwbacks to the Jim Crow era.

That's a pretty broad statement that includes millions of people you've never met.

I grew up in a pretty rural area (4000 population) in southern IL where pretty much everyone was related to each other, except my family, and there were a couple black families. One black family is a pillar of the community, and the woman has been voted woman of the year several times in the town. I don't know the other black families well mainly because their kids were older than me, but I've never seen them mistreated in public places.

Not every predominantly white community is racist. Yes, there are bad apples, but I'm sure if I went into a predominantly black community there would be a few bad apples that would make derogatory comments about me being white (I take offense to "cracker" "whitey" and any other racially derogatory slang).

I understand that as a 40-year-old black woman, you've been around a lot longer and experienced life pretty much from the start of desegregation to now, but please have a little faith that there are white people who care about the welfare of black people and that not everyone is racist. In fact, I'll bet the majority of the white people in this country are comfortable around black people. Negative stereotypes are not only propagated by the "racist" white but also by MTV, etc.

As a side note, over Memorial Day weekend, my husband, some friends and I took a day trip from my parent's house to Memphis to see the Civil Rights Museum, and it was an incredibly sobering experience. It was an excellent education into the history of human rights, mostly dealing with black people, but also Hispanic, Irish, Native Americans, etc. and how they were treated from the beginning to now. It's a trip I think everyone should make and it even had the bus Rosa Parks refused to move on!

 

[solitude]

In The Bell Curve, Herrnstein and Murray report mean IQ scores for East Asians and Jewish Americans of 106 and 113 (on a scale where Whites = 103), respectively.

Averages schmaverages. Who gives a ****?

 

[beefballs]

jews aren't a race
second there is a lack of diversity- and the qualified URMs will be in high demand because there aren't enough. for whatever reason URMs and lower socioeconomic classes aren't matriculating ( i believe the se status has more to do with it than anything) I used to get fired up about AA and how wrong it is in theory and all and then I got to med school and saw that the majority of my school was from a homogenous mixture regardless of race with a few exceptions ( thos of us being non-trads) if you have decent scores and are competitive with matriculant averages you stand a good chance. Harvard UCSF WashU-no but your state schools and the rest fo sure! Oh and if you are sweating if I don;t go to a good med school I will never get a good residency- your wrong the slate gets wiped clean (except for those with a PHD beforehand) and what you do while your in matters. Relax do your best and it will work out regardless of how much melanin is secreted into your keratinocytes. Oh and take an MCAT prep course-in the words of my favorite jew its "gold Jerry, Gold"

 

[1Path]

That's a pretty broad statement that includes millions of people you've never met.

But it's OK for folks on SDN to CONSTANTLY make broad judgements about the qualifications of URM's or should I say lack of qualifications? Common, if you want to make broad generalizations about what I said despite my disclaimer, then reread this thread and comment of all the stuff here too!

 

[ether^O^]

1) If you check in the MSAR, only Blacks make up less than 10% of applicants. 10%!!!! (3,000/30,000) Since Blacks only make up 12% of the country, I think THIS NUMBER needs to go up. Blacks get accepted at a slightly lower rate compared to Asians/whites. If you want Blacks to get into MD programs, why don't you...hm....INCREASE THE # OF APPLICANTS (but like someone said, this requires effort) ?!?

2) Blacks: APPLY TO DO PROGRAMS!!! Since your GPA/MCAT scores are drastically lower than that of Asians/whites but fit DO programs, why don't you apply there? You get a) the same training, b) you can serve your "UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES" that appears to be the SOLE reason for having AA. Problem Solved!

3) How many of you black a**holes arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?!? I'm certain almost all of you are. So you provide further evidence that AA is only supported and helps rich URMs

4) You want a paper that shows the lower graduation rates of URMs? Here is a great one from UC Berkeley

https://osr2.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/Access/DB/Programs/handlesql2.pl or
http://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/current_grad_rate.html

As you pro-AAers can see, East Asians/Indians graduate at 88+% in 6 years. Blacks/Hispanics, on the other hand, graduate at 73%. The FOUR YEAR GRAD RATES for Chinese/Indians = 68+%; Blacks/Hispanics = 37%!!! That's a pretty f***ing substantial difference!!! AA DOESN'T WORK!!!

 

[ether^O^]

WHAT ABOUT JEWS? Specifically, Ashkenazi Jews.

Earl Raab, Director of the Perlmutter Institute for Jewish Advocacy at Brandeis University, pointed out...

"During the last three decades, Jews have made up 50% of the top two hundred intellectuals, 40 percent of American Nobel Prize Winners in science and economics, 20 percent of professors at the leading universities, 21 percent of high level civil servants, 40 percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington, 26% of the reporters, editors, and executives of the major print and broadcast media, 59 percent of the directors, writers, and producers of the fifty top-grossing motion pictures from 1965 to 1982, and 58 percent of directors, writers, and producers in two or more primetime television series." [pp 26-27]

AND WE MAKE UP LESS THAN 2% OF THE US POPULATION! NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL KICKING A--!

Asian Americans would have similar numbers if we weren't labeled "Asian" in our high-education/research/professor/job applications. Because Jews are Caucasian (although of a different ethnicity--> and YES, Jews are a seperate ethnic group), they can blend in easier. There used to be quotas against Jews (similar to the quotas now for Asians), but not anymore. You lucky bastards!

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

1) If you check in the MSAR, only Blacks make up less than 10% of applicants. 10%!!!! (3,000/30,000) Since Blacks only make up 12% of the country, I think THIS NUMBER needs to go up. Blacks get accepted at a slightly lower rate compared to Asians/whites. If you want Blacks to get into MD programs, why don't you...hm....INCREASE THE # OF APPLICANTS (but like someone said, this requires effort) ?!?

2) Blacks: APPLY TO DO PROGRAMS!!! Since your GPA/MCAT scores are drastically lower than that of Asians/whites but fit DO programs, why don't you apply there? You get a) the same training, b) you can serve your "UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES" that appears to be the SOLE reason for having AA. Problem Solved!

3) How many of you black a**holes arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?!? I'm certain almost all of you are. So you provide further evidence that AA is only supported and helps rich URMs

4) You want a paper that shows the lower graduation rates of URMs? Here is a great one from UC Berkeley

https://osr2.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/Access/DB/Programs/handlesql2.pl or
http://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/current_grad_rate.html

As you pro-AAers can see, East Asians/Indians graduate at 88+% in 6 years. Blacks/Hispanics, on the other hand, graduate at 73%. The FOUR YEAR GRAD RATES for Chinese/Indians = 68+%; Blacks/Hispanics = 37%!!! That's a pretty f***ing substantial difference!!! AA DOESN'T WORK!!!

from following your posts for a while I think it is fair to conclude that you are a bigot and VERY anti-black...👎

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

WHAT ABOUT JEWS? Specifically, Ashkenazi Jews.

Earl Raab, Director of the Perlmutter Institute for Jewish Advocacy at Brandeis University, pointed out...

"During the last three decades, Jews have made up 50% of the top two hundred intellectuals, 40 percent of American Nobel Prize Winners in science and economics, 20 percent of professors at the leading universities, 21 percent of high level civil servants, 40 percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington, 26% of the reporters, editors, and executives of the major print and broadcast media, 59 percent of the directors, writers, and producers of the fifty top-grossing motion pictures from 1965 to 1982, and 58 percent of directors, writers, and producers in two or more primetime television series." [pp 26-27]

AND WE MAKE UP LESS THAN 2% OF THE US POPULATION! NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL KICKING A--!

This has nothing to do with the current topic😕 😕 I don’t think anyone here is debating the contributions of people who identify themselves as ethnically Jewish🙂

 

[notdeadyet]

from following your posts for a while I think it is fair to conclude that you are a bigot and VERY anti-black...👎

Agreed. And not due to his being anti-AA. Being against AA doesn't mean you're a bigot.

 

[xanthomondo]

1) If you check in the MSAR, only Blacks make up less than 10% of applicants. 10%!!!! (3,000/30,000) Since Blacks only make up 12% of the country, I think THIS NUMBER needs to go up. Blacks get accepted at a slightly lower rate compared to Asians/whites. If you want Blacks to get into MD programs, why don't you...hm....INCREASE THE # OF APPLICANTS (but like someone said, this requires effort) ?!?

2) Blacks: APPLY TO DO PROGRAMS!!! Since your GPA/MCAT scores are drastically lower than that of Asians/whites but fit DO programs, why don't you apply there? You get a) the same training, b) you can serve your "UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES" that appears to be the SOLE reason for having AA. Problem Solved!

3) How many of you black a**holes arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?!? I'm certain almost all of you are. So you provide further evidence that AA is only supported and helps rich URMs

4) You want a paper that shows the lower graduation rates of URMs? Here is a great one from UC Berkeley

https://osr2.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/Access/DB/Programs/handlesql2.pl or
http://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/current_grad_rate.html

As you pro-AAers can see, East Asians/Indians graduate at 88+% in 6 years. Blacks/Hispanics, on the other hand, graduate at 73%. The FOUR YEAR GRAD RATES for Chinese/Indians = 68+%; Blacks/Hispanics = 37%!!! That's a pretty f***ing substantial difference!!! AA DOESN'T WORK!!!

you're an idiot

end of discussion

 

[riceman04]

Asian Americans would have similar numbers if we weren't labeled "Asian" in our high-education/research/professor/job applications. Because Jews are Caucasian (although of a different ethnicity--> and YES, Jews are a seperate ethnic group), they can blend in easier. There used to be quotas against Jews (similar to the quotas now for Asians), but not anymore. You lucky bastards!

note taken!

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Asian Americans would have similar numbers if we weren't labeled "Asian" in our high-education/research/professor/job applications. Because Jews are Caucasian (although of a different ethnicity--> and YES, Jews are a seperate ethnic group), they can blend in easier. There used to be quotas against Jews (similar to the quotas now for Asians), but not anymore. You lucky bastards!

Do you have proof that there are quota's against asians???

 

[ether^O^]

Do you have proof that there are quota's against asians???

What's the % of student body that Asians represent at Stanford (a California private school that strictly adheres by AA)? about 20% (same at Harvard, Yale, and the top private schools). At UC Berkeley (A UC that half-asses AA)? 45%.

UC medical schools (also half-asses AA): about 40%; private medical schools: about 20%
You do the math.

 

[ether^O^]

1) If you check in the MSAR, only Blacks make up less than 10% of applicants. 10%!!!! (3,000/30,000) Since Blacks only make up 12% of the country, I think THIS NUMBER needs to go up. Blacks get accepted at a slightly lower rate compared to Asians/whites. If you want Blacks to get into MD programs, why don't you...hm....INCREASE THE # OF APPLICANTS (but like someone said, this requires effort) ?!?

2) Blacks: APPLY TO DO PROGRAMS!!! Since your GPA/MCAT scores are drastically lower than that of Asians/whites but fit DO programs, why don't you apply there? You get a) the same training, b) you can serve your "UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES" that appears to be the SOLE reason for having AA. Problem Solved!

3) How many of you black a**holes arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?!? I'm certain almost all of you are. So you provide further evidence that AA is only supported and helps rich URMs

4) You want a paper that shows the lower graduation rates of URMs? Here is a great one from UC Berkeley

https://osr2.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/Access/DB/Programs/handlesql2.pl or
http://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/current_grad_rate.html

As you pro-AAers can see, East Asians/Indians graduate at 88+% in 6 years. Blacks/Hispanics, on the other hand, graduate at 73%. The FOUR YEAR GRAD RATES for Chinese/Indians = 68+%; Blacks/Hispanics = 37%!!! That's a pretty f***ing substantial difference!!! AA DOESN'T WORK!!!

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

What's the % of student body that Asians represent at Stanford (a California private school that strictly adheres by AA)? about 20% (same at Harvard, Yale, and the top private schools). At UC Berkeley (A UC that half-asses AA)? 45%.

UC medical schools (also half-asses AA): about 40%; private medical schools: about 20%
You do the math.

The difference between Stanford and Berkley has nothing to do with AA… Berkley is cheaper public school that is of high quality thus, I can see why many qualified Asians would be interested in going there over Stanford…

 

[ether^O^]

The difference between Stanford and Berkley has nothing to do with AA… Berkley is cheaper public school that is of high quality thus, I can see why many qualified Asians would be interested in going there over Stanford…

Berkeley's % Asians admitted before AA was outlawed in 1997 used to be about 15%. Now, it's 45%. The % of applicants to Stanford who are Asian are almost the same as that of UC Berkeley.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Berkeley's % Asians admitted before AA was outlawed in 1997 used to be about 15%. Now, it's 45%. The % of applicants to Stanford who are Asian are almost the same as that of UC Berkeley.

please provide Sources .

Assuming you are correct, are you then saying that blacks were admitted at the remaining 30 percent??

I believe you are exaggerating... You need to stop being so ethnocentric and blaming ever other race and ethnic group for Asians not being 100 percent of Berkeley (which seems to be your dream)...

 

[xylem29]

I resent that. THE white man? Don't put blame on "white people". And this "white" man plans to return home to practice in an underserved area. Though I'm more of a peach/tan color...do you think a patient will ask for a physician of a specific skin color? God I hope we can rise above skin color. I won't go out of my way to say I'm not racist, but I'll show you with my life's work. Let's go

No, you shouldn't get offended when I say the white man because the white man is a conceptualization. I'm not blaming white people as in, it's your dad's fault or your fault or even your "race's" fault.

What I am saying is that - the historical past had it so that if you were white, you were a first class citizen - it didn't take long for new irish immigrants or other european immigrants (who were white) to assimilate completely into american society. If you were not white, then there were various points in american history where you were not a first class citizen (ie. you did not enjoy certain rights). In addition to institutionalized discrimination, there was no PC societal ideals so if you were white, and racist, you didn't have to hide it, instead of only talking about it at the dinner table, you could act on it without any repercussions . Of course, I'm talking about a long time ago.

A lot of different factors interacting with each other - blacks, even as slavery was officially abolished, faced oppression in various forms, some explicit, some less so. Fast forward to today, and the situation you have with the black population in the US - cannot be compared to other minorities (like, it's ignorant to say, well, these minorities can do it, why can't blacks?) because their history, relationship with a "white" dominated society, and development is different and complex. That being said, this is a generalization - for instance, there are many affluent blacks. So I guess we should distinguish b/w the individual vs the group. As a group - white people benefit from "white privelege" (look this up) but a white person can still get screwed over by AA or discrimination from colored people etc. Living in majority spanish parts of the US, you would likely say...it's not a "white dominated" society - and on a local and visceral level, that is true. But - America is a white man's society. Not from my own experiences of course - antrhopologists and sociologists write books on this stuff...of course, you could argue that what they write is left-wing liberal garbage too. But it's certainly something to think about...and that's the key word...think, rationalize...don't get too emotional with this stuff.

 

[sentry]

But it's OK for folks on SDN to CONSTANTLY make broad judgements about the qualifications of URM's or should I say lack of qualifications? Common, if you want to make broad generalizations about what I said despite my disclaimer, then reread this thread and comment of all the stuff here too!

Wait, you're angry about people making broad generalizations, so that gives you the right to make generalizations of your own? huh? Fantastic logic.

The reason this debate will never go anywhere is that we can't have this conversation without some anti-AA person saying that AA is making them a racist, followed by some pro-AA person assuming that all anti-AA people are racists or are angry because URMs might "take their spot".

When you resort to generalizations and personal attacks you do your own cause a disservice.

 

[sentry]

No, you shouldn't get offended when I say the white man because the white man is a conceptualization. I'm not blaming white people as in, it's your dad's fault or your fault or even your "race's" fault.

What I am saying is that - the historical past had it so that if you were white, you were a first class citizen - it didn't take long for new irish immigrants or other european immigrants (who were white) to assimilate completely into american society. If you were not white, then there were various points in american history where you were not a first class citizen (ie. you did not enjoy certain rights). In addition to institutionalized discrimination, there was no PC societal ideals so if you were white, and racist, you didn't have to hide it, instead of only talking about it at the dinner table, you could act on it without any repercussions . Of course, I'm talking about a long time ago.

A lot of different factors interacting with each other - blacks, even as slavery was officially abolished, faced oppression in various forms, some explicit, some less so. Fast forward to today, and the situation you have with the black population in the US - cannot be compared to other minorities (like, it's ignorant to say, well, these minorities can do it, why can't blacks?) because their history, relationship with a "white" dominated society, and development is different and complex. That being said, this is a generalization - for instance, there are many affluent blacks. So I guess we should distinguish b/w the individual vs the group. As a group - white people benefit from "white privelege" (look this up) but a white person can still get screwed over by AA or discrimination from colored people etc. Living in majority spanish parts of the US, you would likely say...it's not a "white dominated" society - and on a local and visceral level, that is true. But - America is a white man's society. Not from my own experiences of course - antrhopologists and sociologists write books on this stuff...of course, you could argue that what they write is left-wing liberal garbage too. But it's certainly something to think about...and that's the key word...think, rationalize...don't get too emotional with this stuff.

I'm not sure I agree with every part of this (especially about all whites being automatically first-class citizens -- immigrants, especially Irish and Central European, were treated horribly in the U.S. prior to about 1930 or so (as exemplified by everything Upton Sinclair ever wrote). However, I do agree with your main point that you can't compare different minority groups because of differences in inter-racial relations.

 

[BigRedPremed]

As most pro-AAers have noted, URM's, in comparison to Asians and Whites, receive inferior pre-college education. So how does AA attempt to correct this? By letting in URM's with lower SAT scores. Is it any wonder why they have lower graduation rates?

The obvious solution is to improve the quality of primary and secondary education. But gee, that would take too much money, too much effort, too much CARING. So what do liberal politicians do? Support AA, accept a few more minorities each year into college and grad schools in order to shut up the minorities brave enough to decry the discrepancy in education. Guess what pro-AAers? You're going to still be whining about how blacks growing up in the city are disadvantaged 10 years from now because affirmative action does not address the root of the problem.

 

[xylem29]

As most pro-AAers have noted, URM's, in comparison to Asians and Whites, receive inferior pre-college education. So how does AA attempt to correct this? By letting in URM's with lower SAT scores. Is it any wonder why they have lower graduation rates?

The obvious solution is to improve the quality of primary and secondary education. But gee, that would take too much money, too much effort, too much CARING. So what do liberal politicians do? Support AA, accept a few more minorities each year into college and grad schools in order to shut up the minorities brave enough to decry the discrepancy in education. Guess what pro-AAers? You're going to still be whining about how blacks growing up in the city are disadvantaged 10 years from now because affirmative action does not address the root of the problem.

The jewish (lol, see baylee's posts) aamc president said this himself. he recognizes that aa is not a solution to the root cause...sadly, i really don't think we will the root causes solved in our lifetimes since it will take a couple of generations.

 

[jbayne04]

No, you shouldn't get offended when I say the white man because the white man is a conceptualization. I'm not blaming white people as in, it's your dad's fault or your fault or even your "race's" fault.

What I am saying is that - the historical past had it so that if you were white, you were a first class citizen - it didn't take long for new irish immigrants or other european immigrants (who were white) to assimilate completely into american society. If you were not white, then there were various points in american history where you were not a first class citizen (ie. you did not enjoy certain rights). In addition to institutionalized discrimination, there was no PC societal ideals so if you were white, and racist, you didn't have to hide it, instead of only talking about it at the dinner table, you could act on it without any repercussions . Of course, I'm talking about a long time ago.

A lot of different factors interacting with each other - blacks, even as slavery was officially abolished, faced oppression in various forms, some explicit, some less so. Fast forward to today, and the situation you have with the black population in the US - cannot be compared to other minorities (like, it's ignorant to say, well, these minorities can do it, why can't blacks?) because their history, relationship with a "white" dominated society, and development is different and complex. That being said, this is a generalization - for instance, there are many affluent blacks. So I guess we should distinguish b/w the individual vs the group. As a group - white people benefit from "white privelege" (look this up) but a white person can still get screwed over by AA or discrimination from colored people etc. Living in majority spanish parts of the US, you would likely say...it's not a "white dominated" society - and on a local and visceral level, that is true. But - America is a white man's society. Not from my own experiences of course - antrhopologists and sociologists write books on this stuff...of course, you could argue that what they write is left-wing liberal garbage too. But it's certainly something to think about...and that's the key word...think, rationalize...don't get too emotional with this stuff.

I do understand what you mean, but forgive me for "getting emotional" when you say to a "white" man that "the white man" caused today's problems in healthcare and education.

Not angry! Thanks for your reply!

 

[Cyndee MSN NP]

jews aren't a race

We (Jews) ARE a race. If you don't believe me, then compare a few of our DNA samples. You will be very surprised.

 

[Baylee]

Nice to have a member of the "tribe" show up. We even spell our name alike! Must be some jewish "gene" thang going on!

Please "PM" me, I'm new to this forum.

 

[xylem29]

I do understand what you mean, but forgive me for "getting emotional" when you say to a "white" man that "the white man" caused today's problems in healthcare and education.

Not angry! Thanks for your reply!

thnx for ur comments. i have to admit that i were a white man, I would also be upset at what i wrote...whether it is true or not. so, i want to clarify my own personal beliefs..

it is easy to read about oppression, history, bringing blacks over as slaves (ur fault! u created this society! take it as a joke), media literacy, and the list goes on and on and it points to one conclusion - white males are on top and everyone else is beneath one way or another, oppression in different ways, etc...and its easy to blame the "white man" for todays problems.

however, this is how i see it. america and other new world immigrant nations (b/c that's what we all are, immigrants) are special and also different. it's difficult when you have a national culture (even if it's not as long as any culture from the old world) and perspective challenged by say...ppl who you historically viewed as inferior but the having to change that view b/c you realize they are human too. of course, i don't mean to say white ppl are inherently discriminatory...i feel it is human nature's fault.

our nature will have it so that even if america was all white - there would still be issues similar to the ones you have today. an entire population cannot be made of affluent, educated, and similar thinking people. There would be different forms of discrimination, different forms of AA, etc. It just so happens that our natural "we" vs "them" or "classifying/labelling" tendencies chose to classify on something we can readily SEE - physical or skin color. Even as biologists assert that the whole notion of "race" is ridiculous from a biological standpoint, sociologists assert that it is very "real" from a social stand point...so, even as objective and empirical scientific facts show that there is no such thing as "races", we can't get around it...in fact, we created the notion of race...and, since we were on the topic of "white ppl" (u can also look this up) the notion of race originated and was spread around the world by european colonists. but that's another matter. anyway, my point is that we, as a human race, are two extremes, highly intelligent, but extremely dumb too. I personally sometimes think what the world would be like if we were all blind...but i'd be we'd find other ways to discriminate.

so..when you have a diverse society such as the usa, there will be "racial" issues...not b/c of the white man but b/c of our human fallacies.

 

[Baylee]

This has nothing to do with the current topic😕 😕 I don’t think anyone here is debating the contributions of people who identify themselves as ethnically Jewish🙂

I read a post on a previous page of this thread and it listed the number of Asians in academia, etc. So, I just wanted to make sure the Jews were represented as well. Also, there was a posting about Asians having higher IQ's than whites and I addressed that in another post on this thread. I'm not the one who steered the thread off in another direction. I'm just responding.

 

[Baylee]

Averages schmaverages. Who gives a ****?

You'll give a **** when you're competing for a spot in Med school! What's wrong? Did a Jew set the curve in your organic chem class? 😀 😀

 

[xylem29]

I read a post on a previous page of this thread and it listed the number of Asians in academia, etc. So, I just wanted to make sure the Jews were represented as well. Also, there was a posting about Asians having higher IQ's than whites and I addressed that in another post on this thread. I'm not the one who steered the thread off in another direction. I'm just responding.

You wanna hear something flattering? So at the volunteering reception at Yee Hong Centre for Geriatric Care (there's about 5 of these nursing homes, they provide culturally appropriate care - linguistically and in terms of food too - for well, seniors...first started out as chinese but now has expanded to include filipinos, japanese, south asian, portugese, polish), the president says (and it took me by suprise) something to the extent of "the chinese community has contributed much to canada, and i'm quite proud - whatever jews have done, we can do too"

 

[1Path]

3) How many of you black a**holes arguing in favor of AA come from middle/middle-upper class families?!? !!

Ok, it's time to call a few folks out.😡

I don't know what's worse, the fact that a person can post something like this and not get banned for it or the fact that so many URM's, myself included, continue to post on a site where people like this jerk allowed to post this s*it on a REGULAR basis!😡

I'm all about free speech but how many of us URM's would frequent a restaurant if one of the employers refered to the blacks as "black a$$holes" for wanting to order fried chicken?

 

[MollyMalone]

The language you cite, 1Path, is indeed unacceptable in this forum.

If the discussion in this thread can't be conducted in a civilized and mature manner, the thread will be closed.

 

[1Path]

The language you cite, 1Path, is indeed unacceptable in this forum.
.

Actually the language is fine, it's WHAT he said and WHO he said it to that I have a problem with.😡 I mean really, could I get away with posting "asian a$$holes who don't support AA" without being banned immediately?
Tell you what, don't do a thing. I'll change my internet behavior instead.👍