Affirmative Action - Med School Admis.

[topdogg82]

IMO in terms of AA asians/indians end up getting the shaft- there might not be anything to change the situation, but that doesn't mean ppl have to keep their mouths shut about this unfair BS:

1- Whites still get the majority of the spots in med school, so even if a couple spots are 'lost' due to AA, whites are still the majority

2- Blacks/hispanics get basically a healthy amount of spots (harvard's '04 class had 165 members, 32 of which were URM). I don't understand the pro-AA people saying there's only a few black kids at the top med schools- they are a significant portion of med school classes, so its not just a matter of a couple spots. Of course, it doesn't mean that they all needed the help of AA to get in in the first place, as there're plenty of URM's who are extremely qualified regardless.

3- Many qualified asians get rejected at the top schools despite better gpas/scores than ppl that get in b/c they become stereotyped as the 'typical' overachieving, smart, asian nerd while for other races those same scores would attract significantly more positive reactions

For example, say you have an asian kid with a 38/3.8, and a black/hispanic with the same scores. The asian kid, you're basically like, 'okay, great stats, but they're known for being high scorers, so show me something else.' If that kid just has average research/volunteering, likely to be rejected from the top med schools. However, those same scores with a black/hispanic kid and I almost guarantee it causes someone (med school adcom or even student) to be really impressed, and almost certainly will mean an acceptance into a top 10 (assuming same average research/volunteering) b/c the stats stand out more b/c of the racism. Same scores- different reactions. So asians in general are being forced to overachieve just to get similar results in the end compared to other races.

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[Shredder]

IMO in terms of AA asians/indians end up getting the shaft- there might not be anything to change the situation, but that doesn't mean ppl have to keep their mouths shut about this unfair BS:

1- Whites still get the majority of the spots in med school, so even if a couple spots are 'lost' due to AA, whites are still the majority

2- Blacks/hispanics get basically a healthy amount of spots (harvard's '04 class had 165 members, 32 of which were URM). I don't understand the pro-AA people saying there's only a few black kids at the top med schools- they are a significant portion of med school classes, so its not just a matter of a couple spots. Of course, it doesn't mean that they all needed the help of AA to get in in the first place, as there're plenty of URM's who are extremely qualified regardless.

3- Many qualified asians get rejected at the top schools despite better gpas/scores than ppl that get in b/c they become stereotyped as the 'typical' overachieving, smart, asian nerd while for other races those same scores would attract significantly more positive reactions

For example, say you have an asian kid with a 38/3.8, and a black/hispanic with the same scores. The asian kid, you're basically like, 'okay, great stats, but they're known for being high scorers, so show me something else.' If that kid just has average research/volunteering, likely to be rejected from the top med schools. However, those same scores with a black/hispanic kid and I almost guarantee it causes someone (med school adcom or even student) to be really impressed, and almost certainly will mean an acceptance into a top 10 (assuming same average research/volunteering) b/c the stats stand out more b/c of the racism. Same scores- different reactions. So asians in general are being forced to overachieve just to get similar results in the end compared to other races.

all else being equal, urm with 3.5/35 will get in over asian 38/3.8, maybe even urm with 3.5/33. mdapplicants shows this. its very uncommon for urms to get 3.8/38, if so that means admission to every top school with scholarship.

 

[topdogg82]

all else being equal, urm with 3.5/35 will get in over asian 38/3.8, maybe even urm with 3.5/33. mdapplicants shows this. its very uncommon for urms to get 3.8/38, if so that means admission to every top school with scholarship.

shredder you're probably right- i was just trying to make the point that asians/indians get a major shaft, but somehow we're totally ignored in this conversation as it degrades into a white/black battle involving various injustices in the past while somewhat ignoring the contemporary situation. adcoms see every asian/indian high scorer as 'just another high scoring asian/indian' and assume everyone that fits this category is basically the same and won't contribute much to 'diversity.' If you want to talk about unfair, how about people having higher standards for you solely b/c of your race? I know from personal experience of a couple URM's getting in off the waitlist w/ sub-35s into duke over many asians/indians w/ 38+. Since they were on the waitlist I think we can assume neither the URM's nor asians/indians had EC's that were ridiculously good, b/c that would have warranted regular admission IMO.

 

[riceman04]

all else being equal, urm with 3.5/35 will get in over asian 38/3.8, maybe even urm with 3.5/33. mdapplicants shows this. its very uncommon for urms to get 3.8/38, if so that means admission to every top school with scholarship.

Um maybe those asians have nothing special to offer. A dry personality (which is what I assume you have) usually does not bode well in interviews.

 

[riceman04]

shredder you're probably right- i was just trying to make the point that asians/indians get a major shaft, but somehow we're totally ignored in this conversation as it degrades into a white/black battle involving various injustices in the past while somewhat ignoring the contemporary situation. adcoms see every asian/indian high scorer as 'just another high scoring asian/indian' and assume everyone that fits this category is basically the same and won't contribute much to 'diversity.' If you want to talk about unfair, how about people having higher standards for you solely b/c of your race? I know from personal experience of a couple URM's getting in off the waitlist w/ sub-35s into duke over many asians/indians w/ 38+. Since they were on the waitlist I think we can assume neither the URM's nor asians/indians had EC's that were ridiculously good, b/c that would have warranted regular admission IMO.

and so now after sitting and reading this b/s for a couple of days now I have decided to settle on a couple of things:
1. Shredder is a pure bigot! His assumptions about afr. amer. (all urm's) are absolutely disgusting. All of it will one day come back to haunt him.'

2. your loss for now, my gain

3. socioeconomic status would be better

cya

 

[Zuras]

So its ok to continue to be racist but its not ok to identify it as a problem?

Well, you are racist, and I'm going to identify you as a problem right now.

These immigrants are usually in a position like the white man is here.

Well, hello Mr. racist. "The white man here", huh? And anyone takes you seriously here? I begin to doubt it. There are all sorts of white men that are born in much worse situation than most black men in the US. Don't limit yourself to yourself to the racist, myopic pair of glasses you have been using as a crutch all your life to play down your failures.

Yes every minority has had their issues, but none compare to that of the Am. Ind. and black ppl here and you and everyone else knows it.

Historically, no. Several white groups have been through worse, the Irish and the many eastern European ethnicities come to mind.

Another thing your forgetting here, is that blk ppl worked for hundreds of years in this country, not "for little play" but no pay, ever.

So did white people. There were all sorts of white slave rackets in that time period. If you were poor and white you were pretty screwed. Additionally, while black Americans didn't work for "a penny", the were fed well, given rudimentary medical treatments when needed, provided shelter, and even allowed to procreate. The truth of the matter is, they had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa, and on just about every aspect imaginable, even better to many of the poor whites in south.

"reverse discrimination" that you all speak of admits a couple of three blk students to med school. That's it. And it gets you all heated.

A couple three. Haha. AA is all over, it's hardly just found in medicine. It is an insidious, racist relic of a era that no longer resembles the current one. According the AMA, about 50% of URM would not have gotten in without AA. That's pretty damning. Now find out how many URMs get in every year. You will surely see it's not 6. Hah.

Blk ppl had to start from scratch, no education, no equality,

Not unlike the vast majority of immigrants that came to the USA, and even "blk ppl" had the advantage of speaking English, while most immigrants did not. Heh.

 

[riceman04]

Well, you are racist, and I'm going to identify you as a problem right now.






Well, hello Mr. racist. "The white man here", huh? And anyone takes you seriously here? I begin to doubt it. There are all sorts of white men that are born in much worse situation than most black men in the US. Don't limit yourself to yourself to the racist, myopic pair of glasses you have been using as a crutch all your life to play down your failures.




Historically, no. Several white groups have been through worse, the Irish and the many eastern European ethnicities come to mind.



So did white people. There were all sorts of white slave rackets in that time period. If you were poor and white you were pretty screwed. Additionally, while black Americans didn't work for "a penny" they were fed well, given rudimentary medical treatments when needed, provided shelter, and even allowed to procreate. The truth of the matter is, they had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa, and on just about every aspect imaginable, even better than many of the poor whites in south.



A couple three. Haha. AA is all over, it's hardly just found in medicine. It is an insidious, racist relic of a era that no longer resembles the current one. According the AMA, about 50% of URM would not have gotten in without AA. That's pretty damning. Now find out how many URMs get in every year. You will surely see it's not 6. Hah.




Not unlike the vast majority of immigrants that came to the USA, and even "blk ppl" had the advantage of speaking English, while most immigrants did not. Heh.

"So did white people. There were all sorts of white slave rackets in that time period. If you were poor and white you were pretty screwed. Additionally, while black Americans didn't work for "a penny", the were fed well, given rudimentary medical treatments when needed, provided shelter, and even allowed to procreate. The truth of the matter is, they had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa, and on just about every aspect imaginable, even better to many of the poor whites in south."


Are you attempting to justify slavery? I really hope I am misinterpreting what you are implying!

How are you so sure of all the details you gave? I do not think being forced to work for no pay suggests "having a better time." Those slaves were obviously thriving in Africa weren't they?

And there was no such thing as having the opportunity to learn to speak english! Slaves secretly learned it just so that they could adapt. From the details you gave about those times I would think that you would know about Frederick Douglas. He had to secretly learn english! Guess why.....b/c it was outlawed for slaves to learn it.

Poor whites were not whipped, their families were not separated, and most importantly they made a CHOICE TO COME OVER. I CANT SAY THE SAME ABOUT AFRICAN SLAVES.

Ok so I am wondering how we even started on slaves!
This is starting to sting a little!
I am going to ask for this thread to be closed.

 

[Zuras]

Meh. Stupid forum is not letting me correct/edit my post. grrr.

 

[Zuras]

Ok so I am wondering how we even started on slaves!
This is starting to sting a little!
I am going to ask for this thread to be closed.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-1387150-1724913?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

OF course you would like to have the thread closed after you get a can of whoopass sprayed on all your arguments.

 

[Shredder]

OF course you would like to have the thread closed after you get a can of whoopass sprayed on all your arguments.

happens every time

 

[Hercules022]

What you dont understand is the overall effects of racism and slavery. It took white ppl all these years of free reign to make it to their current state. I guess blk ppl have to be hundreds of times better than white ppl to have to make up the whole time, and reach parity, just over a hundred years; with all the obstacles in between. Blk ppl had to start from scratch, no education, no equality, no help from anyone else (atleast not after 1877). this is nothing more than creating a problem, being mad when the problem exists, and then denying creating the problem.

Your argument completely ignores the fact that countless individuals that have immigrated to the US have "had to start from scratch, no education, no equality, no help from anyone else." The father of one of my good friends arrived in the US about 10 years ago and spoke no English and had no money. You can be sure that white people were no more anxious to help him than they were to help a black person in his same situation. Through hard work he is now successful and has sent his children to Ivy League schools. So the reasoning that only black people, but not other groups, need hundreds and hundreds of years to play catch up has no basis in reality given the experiences of other minority groups. And if "racism" is such a huge problem for black people, how have other groups like Asians overcome racism so quickly to become so heavily represented in top undergraduate and graduate programs?

 

[IkeBoy18]

Well, you are racist, and I'm going to identify you as a problem right now.

If you feel that way, thats fine. MLK, X, Evers and a bunch of others were also identified as problems and I guess this country showed them who is boss.

Well, hello Mr. racist. "The white man here", huh? And anyone takes you seriously here? I begin to doubt it. There are all sorts of white men that are born in much worse situation than most black men in the US. Don't limit yourself to yourself to the racist, myopic pair of glasses you have been using as a crutch all your life to play down your failures.

I guess youve resorted the likes of everyone else you cant disprove the facts, only scrutinize the packaging. I see youve missed the whole point of what kind of advantage it is in this country to be white. Go read the other posts because obvisously youve missed all of those disparities. In this country being born blk was just the initial problem, living that way brings the rest.

Historically, no. Several white groups have been through worse, the Irish and the many eastern European ethnicities come to mind.

This is a totally ignorant statement. I wont even address it.

So did white people. There were all sorts of white slave rackets in that time period. If you were poor and white you were pretty screwed. Additionally, while black Americans didn't work for "a penny", the were fed well, given rudimentary medical treatments when needed, provided shelter, and allowed to procreate. The truth of the matter is, they had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa, and on just about every aspect imaginable.

Oh ok there was a time that if you were poor and white you were screwed, but theres never been such a time for blk ppl right? Fed well? Shelter? They were treated like animals. Medical treatment and procreation: they were an investment and were only medical treatment they ever got was from their selves. Using whatever the slave master gave them. And ofcourse they were allowed to procreate, slave drivers would mame and kill them for one; and, what better way not to have to buy anymore slaves, when you can make your own? You really need to read something other than HIStory to learn anything about slavery, because I see your perception of the time is altered.

A couple three. Haha. AA is all over, it's hardly just found in medicine. It is an insidious racist relic of a era that no loner resembles the current one. According the AMA, about 50% of URM would not have gotten in without AA. That's pretty damning.

So racism is all over and even more enforced. AA has a very minimal existence in this society. The little things that can be considered AA are overturned every year in courts. Just like AA in med schools will be as well. No, you cant just lynch someone these days. But racism is alive and well. You still must have not read my previous posts siting just a few of the racist happenings in this country. I mean a couple of three because there is about that many per school. Whats also crazy is that white ppl can be as racist as they want, as long as they want; but then minorities have no reason to and should not have any of the same feelings back?

Not unlike the vast majority of immigrants that came to the USA, and event "blk ppl" had the advantage of speaking English, while most immigrants did not. Heh.

Yeah Im sure their english was just as good as yours when they took the shackles off of them, right. What good is (very primative if any) english if you arent allowed any opportunities to use it? Its like being excited about your own 2 million dollar life insurance. If you havn't noticed most of these immigrants during that time were nonethnic. The 1st generation may have had some issues, but not to any extent as a blk person. Moreover, after the orginal generation the next one was just as good as plain white. Because after the accent is gone, they are just American. Unlike blk ppl who are African-American (note the seperation, although most dont know anyone from Africa) and the descendants of these Afr. Am. have been here longer than most of the "Americans."

 

[topdogg82]

I think ultimately the major discrepancy comes in that the pro-AA people are saying "blacks have to dig themselves out of a much bigger hole" relatively but the URM's who are benefiting from AA mostly are NOT from the inner city or extremely poor but rather from comfortable backgrounds where they grow up with fellow whites/asians over whom they have this unfair advantage. Take a look at the URM's who comprise the top 10 med schools, and I bet the large majority of them are not coming from a seriously disadvantaged inner city type neighborhood as claimed but rather lower-middle class and higher. The bottom line is that AA based on race is not helping the people who the pro-AA claim it helps- those who are socioeconomically disadvantaged and truly deserve an edge to compete w/ richer kids who have much better resources. I fully understand that there are major struggles when you are coming from rough neighborhoods and are not well off, and you deserve a fair shot, so if AA actually was focused to help these types of kids, regardless of race, I'd be all for it. However, its become a crutch for URM's from comfortable backgrounds taking advantage of this misdirected policy while those underprivileged/inner city type kids that people love to claim its helping are basically still stuck there.

Ex: I'd gladly accept being rejected for a URM or whatever race for that matter who actually came from a rough neighborhood and worked his way, even if his stats might be a little lower or whatever. However, in my experience, what I've seen instead is URM's who come from similar backgrounds and enjoy the same privileges that I do enjoying this undeserved extra boost from AA- being asian, I'm unfairly graded on higher standards by adcoms compared to URM's despite us having similar backgrounds and opps. That's why the current AA seems extremely ineffective at its proposed 'mission' to help out underprivileged, b/c these kids arent the ones benefitingf from AA.

 

[deleted74029]

Okay people lets all calm down.

You guys sound like you're all my age lol. (18) Anyway the idea that Affirmative Action should be exclusive to those who are econimically challenged is a great idea. There are white people whom I know that I feel very sorry for that also must help their family tremendously to get the bills paid and the groceries bought, but this number is much lower than the blacks I know in the same situation or worse. That white guy needs a little help just as much as the black guy so I think economically based aid is a better fit for our country than racially based aid if we want to try to move on. Blacks are still the most poverty stricken in the country so we wouldnt notice any change, but other races will also be able join in on the giving.

The argument that AA should never have been implemented is wrong, however. As we all know, when this was put in place there wasn't any slavery but blacks were still very much discriminated against, and finding a good job was nearly impossible even if you were more qualified than the white person competing against you. There is still racism today (I live in Arkansas so I know) but blacks can now be put on the same playing field if they have the same qualities as the next man. It is much harder for a racist person to win in this world than if he lived 30 years ago, and if he does legal actions can be taken towards him.

My father always told me that one thing no one can ever deny me of is my education, and the education these kids are getting at many of these inner city schools is ridiculous, I have gone to upper class white schools and lower class black schools and there is a huge difference between the two in terms of things learned. Lower class schools need a huge funding increase if the students expect to amount to anything, not saying they wont but the success rate will be much higher if better teachers, facilities, and books are obtained. We have the money, trust me, http://www.costofwar.com .

I am a black male living in a black neighborhood located in an upperclass white suburb of a predominately black city, so I have seen just about every scenario you can think of.

 

[riceman04]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-1387150-1724913?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

OF course you would like to have the thread closed after you get a can of whoopass sprayed on all your arguments.

No it's just that normally people can formualte arguments without reverting to attacking someone's heritage.
That was pretty lame, but for some reason not unexpected!
I have never attacked your ethnicity (and I do not plan on it).
I guess it just all boils down to knowing who you are as a person and knowing where you are going.

As far as i am concerned I am all for socioeconomic factors to take precedence over (or instead replace) race. What I do not agree with is all the assumptions being made about URM's.

We will see in med school where we all stand. Then we will see who is underqualified.

 

[riceman04]

I think ultimately the major discrepancy comes in that the pro-AA people are saying "blacks have to dig themselves out of a much bigger hole" relatively but the URM's who are benefiting from AA mostly are NOT from the inner city or extremely poor but rather from comfortable backgrounds where they grow up with fellow whites/asians over whom they have this unfair advantage. Take a look at the URM's who comprise the top 10 med schools, and I bet the large majority of them are not coming from a seriously disadvantaged inner city type neighborhood as claimed but rather lower-middle class and higher. The bottom line is that AA based on race is not helping the people who the pro-AA claim it helps- those who are socioeconomically disadvantaged and truly deserve an edge to compete w/ richer kids who have much better resources. I fully understand that there are major struggles when you are coming from rough neighborhoods and are not well off, and you deserve a fair shot, so if AA actually was focused to help these types of kids, regardless of race, I'd be all for it. However, its become a crutch for URM's from comfortable backgrounds taking advantage of this misdirected policy while those underprivileged/inner city type kids that people love to claim its helping are basically still stuck there.

Ex: I'd gladly accept being rejected for a URM or whatever race for that matter who actually came from a rough neighborhood and worked his way, even if his stats might be a little lower or whatever. However, in my experience, what I've seen instead is URM's who come from similar backgrounds and enjoy the same privileges that I do enjoying this undeserved extra boost from AA- being asian, I'm unfairly graded on higher standards by adcoms compared to URM's despite us having similar backgrounds and opps. That's why the current AA seems extremely ineffective at its proposed 'mission' to help out underprivileged, b/c these kids arent the ones benefitingf from AA.

Do you assume that ALL (or the majority) of URM's in these medical schools are there b/c of AA?

 

[riceman04]

happens every time

UT = *******

 

[crazy_cavalier]

here's my opinion:

I am in favor of anything that gives me an advantage,
and I oppose anything that puts me at a disadvantage.

Hi, I am a member of the human race, nice to meet you.



(notice this reply does not state whether or not I support / oppose AA)

 

[riceman04]

here's my opinion:

I am in favor of anything that gives me an advantage,
and I oppose anything that puts me at a disadvantage.

Hi, I am a member of the human race, nice to meet you.



(notice this reply does not state whether or not I support / oppose AA)

That's a realy good way to put it!
I like that!
So true, so true!

 

[topdogg82]

Do you assume that ALL (or the majority) of URM's in these medical schools are there b/c of AA?

No, if you read my earlier post (dont blame u though b/c this thread is mad long lol) I stated that there're a lot of URM's who have the requisite qualifications for their respective schools and get in w/o AA. However, its those cases when a URM has a 34/3.5 gets in over kids w/ 39/3.7 and both have similar ECs. Being at Duke, there're obviously many URM's who just plain smart and could do well anywhere, and they all had 1500+ SATs blah blah and are doing well here. However, the question is- wouldn't you feel much better about your chances at at top 10 med school if you were a URM as opposed to an asian, assuming similar stats? If so isn't this just another type of racism?

 

[Zuras]

IkeBoy18, you can go through life as ignorant as you want, but don't start calling other people what you yourself are.

Try actually reading real history, not deriving everything from entirely fictional pieces of work like "Roots".

If we were to award persons on historical trauma, NO GROUP exceeds that of the Eastern European Slavs. The very word "slave" comes from this group of people. Now Go find out why, there's near a millennium of history behind it.

 

[IkeBoy18]

IkeBoy18, you can go through life as ignorant as you want, but don't start calling other people what you yourself are.

Try actually reading real history, not deriving everything from entirely fictional pieces of work like "Roots".

If we were to award persons on historical trauma, NO GROUP exceeds that of the Eastern European Slavs. The very word "slave" comes from this group of people. Now Go find out why, there's near a millennium of history behind it.

Lets see you didnt answer any of my questions. Hmm what else is up there..insults..insults...insults..lies (lol) roots? cmon now. These ppl were taken from their country and made slaves. Who knows what happend to the actually slaves that stayed in the countries they were enslaved in. The Slavic ppl themselves, advanced in their own country and have had over 500 yrs to do it since the enslavement of their ppl was over.

 

[riceman04]

No, if you read my earlier post (dont blame u though b/c this thread is mad long lol) I stated that there're a lot of URM's who have the requisite qualifications for their respective schools and get in w/o AA. However, its those cases when a URM has a 34/3.5 gets in over kids w/ 39/3.7 and both have similar ECs. Being at Duke, there're obviously many URM's who just plain smart and could do well anywhere, and they all had 1500+ SATs blah blah and are doing well here. However, the question is- wouldn't you feel much better about your chances at at top 10 med school if you were a URM as opposed to an asian, assuming similar stats? If so isn't this just another type of racism?

oh ok!

I almost went to Duke for undergrad. But I could not afford it not even with scholarships (did not get much financial aid b/c my parents are pretty well off.....well.....well off enough for the govt to say "no money for you".

So I chose Rice instead. But I always wonder what it would have been like to go to those basketball games.

anyways,
glad you cleared everything up 4 me
cya

Oh yeah, your question: Ok, so to answer your question I am going to start by saying that no it is not racism b/c racism implies that one race in being treated as inferior to another (or several others). But I will say that yes, it does in many ways suggest "unfair treatment."

Diversity is key though.

but now I would like to ask a question (and I do not mean to be cross or rude) b/c I want to understand:
Why do so many asians (eastern, south asians, etc...) tend to strive to become a physicians, scientists, or engineers compared to psychologists, teachers, social workers, etc....?
Is it b/c of family expectations?

 

[riceman04]

IkeBoy18, you can go through life as ignorant as you want, but don't start calling other people what you yourself are.

Try actually reading real history, not deriving everything from entirely fictional pieces of work like "Roots".

If we were to award persons on historical trauma, NO GROUP exceeds that of the Eastern European Slavs. The very word "slave" comes from this group of people. Now Go find out why, there's near a millennium of history behind it.

can you give a title of a book about these eastern european slaves.

I am interested in learning more about this (was never taught in school and I never took a history class in college).

 

[Zuras]

These ppl were taken from their country and made slaves..

What people? African Americans? No. The majority were slaves in Africa already. Sorry to enlighten more of your ignorance; I know it's painful.

Who knows what happened to the actually slaves that stayed in the countries they were enslaved in. The Slavic ppl themselves, advanced in their own country and have had over 500 yrs to do it since the enslavement of their ppl was over.

500 years? Every heard of the turks? The nazis? The communists? The oppression of Slavs is detailed since history has been written about them, only recently ending with the death of the USSR. They are still dealing with the massive nuclear pollution they were left with.

 

[Zuras]

can you give a title of a book about these eastern european slaves.

I am interested in learning more about this (was never taught in school and I never took a history class in college).

I'm not sure you could find just a single book detailing everything. If one exists, I'm not aware of it offhand. You would probably have to look at several sources, I'm sure. The slavs, primarily due to being landlock and not having much for natural resources, have pretty much been the targets for slavery/oppression in all manners from the beginning of written histor to the fall of the soviet union, as I mentioned above. Major players in this:

The Greeks.
The Vikings.
The Huns.
The Mongols.
The Scythians.
Several minor European factions.
The Romans.
The Turks.
The Muslims, Turks by proxy.
The Christians, sent to cleanse their heathen filth
The nazis
The cumminists

Communists being the most recent, from the massive forced famines on the Ukraine to the more recent nuclear waste disposal/testing.

 

[IkeBoy18]

What people? African Americans? No. The majority were slaves in Africa already. Sorry to enlighten more of your ignorance; I know it's painful.

Did you say anything about African Americans in you post? Did I? No, I was speaking of the Slavic peoples. Your right it does hurt.

500 years? Every heard of the turks? The nazis? The communists? The oppression of Slavs is detailed since history has been written about them, only recently ending with the death of the USSR. They are still dealing with the massive nuclear pollution they were left with.

Nazi's? Ive already said, more ppl have died during this whole slaver, oppression debacle in the US than in the holocaust. Communism: these ppl were based in their own countries before their oppression and have been advancing in their "own" countries after it all, without the affects of discrimination. This is basically what Im getting at. Nothing similar to the current state of blks in america. Immigrants come from their respective countries with their culture. what i mean by blk ppl have to start over because they were stripped of any heritage.They were here at ground 0. Having to learn how to read and write (not just adjusting to read and write in english like immigrants, learning to read and write period) without much help from anyone else. The blind were leading the blind.

 

[IkeBoy18]

It seems that you many be somehow related to the Slavic ppls. From that we probably will never change our opinions on which was worse. I respect your opinion. But weve gotten so far off topic. I guess it is time to kill frankenstein. I do appreciate your opinions and viewpoints even though they are laced with insults But its cool.

 

[MoosePilot]

here's my opinion:

I am in favor of anything that gives me an advantage,
and I oppose anything that puts me at a disadvantage.

Hi, I am a member of the human race, nice to meet you.



(notice this reply does not state whether or not I support / oppose AA)

I'm applying as a white/native american mix this year and I still oppose AA. It might be hypocritical to take advantage of it when I think it's wrong, but I think the fact that I was poor is the more proximate cause of any disadvantages I experienced rather than my grandparents being native americans. Their race might have been a root cause of their poverty and that disadvantage might have been a root cause of my mother's lack of education and poverty, but the poverty is the main thing I experienced.

 

[visualwealth]

Well, you are racist, and I'm going to identify you as a problem right now.






Well, hello Mr. racist. "The white man here", huh? And anyone takes you seriously here? I begin to doubt it. There are all sorts of white men that are born in much worse situation than most black men in the US. Don't limit yourself to yourself to the racist, myopic pair of glasses you have been using as a crutch all your life to play down your failures.




Historically, no. Several white groups have been through worse, the Irish and the many eastern European ethnicities come to mind.



So did white people. There were all sorts of white slave rackets in that time period. If you were poor and white you were pretty screwed. Additionally, while black Americans didn't work for "a penny", the were fed well, given rudimentary medical treatments when needed, provided shelter, and even allowed to procreate. The truth of the matter is, they had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa, and on just about every aspect imaginable, even better to many of the poor whites in south.A couple three. Haha. AA is all over, it's hardly just found in medicine. It is an insidious, racist relic of a era that no longer resembles the current one. According the AMA, about 50% of URM would not have gotten in without AA. That's pretty damning. Now find out how many URMs get in every year. You will surely see it's not 6. Hah.




Not unlike the vast majority of immigrants that came to the USA, and even "blk ppl" had the advantage of speaking English, while most immigrants did not. Heh.

Wow!!! I can’t believe you survived being banned for such a savage statement. You are an ill-mannered brute buddy!! When you say “the truth of the matter is, they (referring to the slaves) had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa” I wonder just how stupid you are??… Africa was better off without whites influence…Specifically, Africa is in its current state not because of the black people that live there but, because of the invasion of it by whites and the Arabs… The Africans had a superior culture that was infiltrated by whites who came with nothing but negatives and BS. They brought their diseases and filth and fu*cked up the continent… Look at all the hell whites have caused in the world… Stealing wealth from other countries, wiping out races etc... Don’t even get me started with such ignorant statements…

 

[Shredder]

Wow!!! I can’t believe you survived being banned for such a savage statement. You are an ill-mannered brute buddy!! When you say “the truth of the matter is, they (referring to the slaves) had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa” I wonder just how stupid you are??… Africa was better off without whites influence…Specifically, Africa is in its current state not because of the black people that live there but, because of the invasion of it by whites and the Arabs… The Africans had a superior culture that was infiltrated by whites who came with nothing but negatives and BS. They brought their diseases and filth and fu*cked up the continent… Look at all the hell whites have caused in the world… Stealing wealth from other countries, wiping out races etc... Don’t even get me started with such ignorant statements…

haha..there you go again crying for bans. wikipedia says

South Africa has the largest population of people of European descent in Africa, the largest Indian population in Africa, as well as the largest Coloured (of mixed European and African descent) community in Africa, making it one of the most ethnically diverse countries on the continent...
The country is one of the few in Africa never to have had a coup d'état, and regular free and fair elections have been held since 1994, making it a regional power and among the most stable and liberal democracies in Africa. The economy of South Africa is the largest and most well-developed of the entire African continent, with modern infrastructure common throughout the country

 

[WUcrewbie]

I am african american and I believe in myself and God. I believe that life is rough for everyone some more then others. Life is like King of the Mountain and just so happen is that mostly Caucasian are king of the mountain in the US. Everyone else have to work their ARSE off to get to the top. I see Affirmative Action as a Caucasian giving a rope to me and I will refuse that assistance because I want to earn my way to the top. Consequently there are lots of injustice from White against African American. However, there are even more that hurts the most from our own race. We all are climbing the mountain of life trying to get on top of whatever path we choose but there are people that look like me that is putting me down and kicking me down. However, I dont let that deter me and I keep persisting. African Americans are powerful but we have to learn to work together. Until then we are mere victims of other race and our own race.

Yes its terrible about slavery and what they did to us. But we need to stop being victims of our past. In this world, nobody owes anybody anything. Caucasian dont know anybody anything. Its a plain survival of the fittest and the strong will survive over the weak and the wise will rule the strong. thanks for listening to my philosophy.

Thank God someone recognizes this!!!

A short summary of my thoughts/opinions on this thread:

1. Maybe the people on this thread (and in general) should quit b*tching about being downtrodden and discriminated against and put some real effort into achieving their goals. Thank you to Braveheart who made a very good point on that. Not only is whining not going to get you anywhere, but it is going to piss people off and make them look even more unfavorably on AA.

2. I am from the NW and up there we have many Hispanic immigrants who not only are often dirt poor but face a lot of discrimination/racial sterotypes/language barriers. However, I don't see or hear them griping about how "the white man" is keeping them down but rather working hard to provide for their family and learn english. Again, work instead of whine.

3. Not only have I never owned a slave, but I don't know anyone who has owned a slave. Hell, my 86 year old grandmother doesn't know anyone who owned a slave. So while I agree with everyone that slavery was bad, and it was a dark point in our nation's history, people need to stop using it as a crutch and come up with a better argument in favor of AA.

4. If you are going to call someone a racist, stop b*tching about whitey b/c that's racist too.

In short (well, not really), economic AA = good.

 

[visualwealth]

haha..there you go again crying for bans. wikipedia says

Irrelevant post... Are you insinuating that South Africa is successful b/c of the whites and Indians there?? b/c if you are you are by far the biggest ***** I know... Africans in South Africa face racism that surpasses that of Black Americans!!! Your biggest mistake is you are erroneously assuming that wealth should be measured by western standards!! If Africa had been left alone it would definitely be in better condition than it is now(thanks to whites)... I don’t care wtf is going on in South Africa where btw the whites and maybe Indians hold a majority of the wealth…

ps:

South Africa's olympic team was all white!!! That just shows how racist the country still is

 

[MoosePilot]

Wow!!! I can’t believe you survived being banned for such a savage statement. You are an ill-mannered brute buddy!! When you say “the truth of the matter is, they (referring to the slaves) had much better time here in American than they would have had in Africa” I wonder just how stupid you are??… Africa was better off without whites influence…Specifically, Africa is in its current state not because of the black people that live there but, because of the invasion of it by whites and the Arabs… The Africans had a superior culture that was infiltrated by whites who came with nothing but negatives and BS. They brought their diseases and filth and fu*cked up the continent… Look at all the hell whites have caused in the world… Stealing wealth from other countries, wiping out races etc... Don’t even get me started with such ignorant statements…

This is racist. You're saying Africa is messed up because of evil white people?

I agree that some countries exploited Africa irresponsibly, but I don't think this was because they were white.

Also, document how Africans had a "superior culture". I'm curious what exactly you mean by that.

 

[visualwealth]

This is racist. You're saying Africa is messed up because of evil white people?

I agree that some countries exploited Africa irresponsibly, but I don't think this was because they were white.

Also, document how Africans had a "superior culture". I'm curious what exactly you mean by that.

watch the documentary Africa: A Voyage of Discovery

 

[MoosePilot]

watch the documentary Africa: A Voyage of Discovery

I'm sorry, I'm in Kyrgystan and I'm betting I don't have that documentary readily available. Would you mind documenting your own argument rather than asking me to do extensive research so you don't have to?

 

[Shredder]

This is racist. You're saying Africa is messed up because of evil white people?

I agree that some countries exploited Africa irresponsibly, but I don't think this was because they were white.

Also, document how Africans had a "superior culture". I'm curious what exactly you mean by that.

see how much you can get out of visualwealth, i find it great comedy. can anyone believe that peoples lives might be in his hands one day?

saying africa is messed up bc of evil white man is like saying america is messed up bc of evil black man. same thing but one is somehow permissible and the other not.

 

[visualwealth]

see how much you can get out of visualwealth, i find it great comedy. can anyone believe that peoples lives might be in his hands one day?

saying africa is messed up bc of evil white man is like saying america is messed up bc of evil black man. same thing but one is somehow permissible and the other not.

I gave him the link to a very good video... I am not going to type 50 pages of information that he is too lazy to go watch...

You should watch the video!! If you look at africa today from all the oil and gold and natural resources that "evil white man" is stealing or has already stolen you will see my perfectly valid arguement.

 

[MoosePilot]

I gave him the link to a very good video... I am not going to type 50 pages of information that he is too lazy to go watch...

You should watch the video!! If you look at africa today from all the oil and gold and natural resources that "evil white man" is stealing or has already stolen you will see my perfectly valid arguement.

You didn't provide a link....?

You told me to go watch a video. Why don't you summarize some of the arguments. You're the one that made the argument. Have you ever submitted a paper to a prof that was just a citation page? Then cursed him when he failed you because he was too lazy to look at your sources?

 

[Chrissy]

what was worse slavery or the holacaust? American Jews are doing just fine, maybe they should open a school for all African Americans who can't overcome a 200 year old plight....

 

[visualwealth]

You didn't provide a link....?

You told me to go watch a video. Why don't you summarize some of the arguments. You're the one that made the argument. Have you ever submitted a paper to a prof that was just a citation page? Then cursed him when he failed you because he was too lazy to look at your sources?

this is from the movies website
False Myths about Africa

While searching for gold, white explorers first saw a city in the heart of Africa built of stone hundreds of years ago. Kings lived in these great walls in royal seclusion and enjoyed the mystery and power they provided. These kingdoms were as good and well governed as the European medieval ones. Evidence shows that earlier records prove that other outsiders admitted this about Africa, proving that racism is a relatively new concept. Instead of accepting this truth, white visitors invented exotic explanations of Africa's history, rather than admitting Africa had a rich history of its own. Hege, a noted philosopher, is quoted as saying: "This is the land where men are children…. let us forget Africa and never mention it again for Africa is no historical part of the world." It was even said that the savagenss of the Africans was even below the nobility of dogs. What these 'scholars' forget to mention is the 300 years of cruelty, torture, and death to Africans along the entire coast of Africa. It continuously robbed Africa of generations of its healthiest and strongest members. The stability and fabric of African life was destroyed. The mutual respect between black and white, which once existed, was also destroyed. Science has given us a new look into Africa's history. It proves what earlier records tell us- that their past is full of its own history. It debunks the preposterous myth of the inferiority and sub-human status of the African people.

and here is the link.. Thank me later for making you much smarter!!
http://dickinsg.intrasun.tcnj.edu/films/basil/videos.html

 

[Chrissy]

There's also this super cool video on how 911 was an inside job and we planned the whole thing......and everything the media and government told us was a lie! imagine!!!!

 

[MoosePilot]

this is from the movies website
False Myths about Africa

While searching for gold, white explorers first saw a city in the heart of Africa built of stone hundreds of years ago. Kings lived in these great walls in royal seclusion and enjoyed the mystery and power they provided. These kingdoms were as good and well governed as the European medieval ones. Evidence shows that earlier records prove that other outsiders admitted this about Africa, proving that racism is a relatively new concept. Instead of accepting this truth, white visitors invented exotic explanations of Africa's history, rather than admitting Africa had a rich history of its own. Hege, a noted philosopher, is quoted as saying: "This is the land where men are children…. let us forget Africa and never mention it again for Africa is no historical part of the world." It was even said that the savagenss of the Africans was even below the nobility of dogs. What these 'scholars' forget to mention is the 300 years of cruelty, torture, and death to Africans along the entire coast of Africa. It continuously robbed Africa of generations of its healthiest and strongest members. The stability and fabric of African life was destroyed. The mutual respect between black and white, which once existed, was also destroyed. Science has given us a new look into Africa's history. It proves what earlier records tell us- that their past is full of its own history. It debunks the preposterous myth of the inferiority and sub-human status of the African people.

and here is the link.. Thank me later for making you much smarter!!
http://dickinsg.intrasun.tcnj.edu/films/basil/videos.html

Your argument is based solely on ruins?

Doesn't a superior culture lead to continued superior achievement? What happened? Whites? Why didn't the superior culture whoop their ass?

 

[visualwealth]

Your argument is based solely on ruins?

Doesn't a superior culture lead to continued superior achievement? What happened? Whites? Why didn't the superior culture whoop their ass?

Watch the movie or read the website... I really dont have time to respond to your stupid one-liners... If you are not going to watch it... Let us end our conversation here!

 

[knight12]

Do you actually believe that Africa is in such bad shape because of white people? That's ridiculous. Look at the country and what's going on. The black leaders are corrupt and oppressing their own people, stealing aid from other countries, and committing rapes and murders. The country is just in need of a major overhaul. I don't understand why it continues to be so dilapidated and in need of help. There is no development and I don't see it improving anytime soon. If they were such strong-willed and resourceful people, wouldn't they be able to overcome these obstacles and advance? Who do you think is providing most of the aid to the country anyway? The United States with its "evil" white people.

 

[riceman04]

I'm not sure you could find just a single book detailing everything. If one exists, I'm not aware of it offhand. You would probably have to look at several sources, I'm sure. The slavs, primarily due to being landlock and not having much for natural resources, have pretty much been the targets for slavery/oppression in all manners from the beginning of written histor to the fall of the soviet union, as I mentioned above. Major players in this:

The Greeks.
The Vikings.
The Huns.
The Mongols.
The Scythians.
Several minor European factions.
The Romans.
The Turks.
The Muslims, Turks by proxy.
The Christians, sent to cleanse their heathen filth
The nazis
The cumminists

Communists being the most recent, from the massive forced famines on the Ukraine to the more recent nuclear waste disposal/testing.

Ok so all that you have provided me with are names of several ethnic grps that have supposedly been subjected to slavery. Yes, you have established that slavery is in no way new, but this information is in no way applicable to what we are discussing right now.

The Huns.....come on....that is a dead culture!
Christianity.....early BC
The romans...how about world wide pillage


I would like to read about much more recent events. Yes, WWII w/ the enslavery of the Jews is one....what else?
Everyone knows about africa (that's why it is documented so frequently).
I would like to read about the eastern europeans (to include the irish and scottish.....hmmmm...maybe that's why my greatgreat grandmother, who is 100% caucasian scottish...identifies much more with afr. amer.) who came to the US and supposedly faced the same trials and tribulations as african slaves.

 

[patzan]

I saw that this thread was nine pages and knew that I didn't need bother reading a single one of them to know that it would be in line as the biggest waste of my time, right next to the other 75 similar threads on this.

 

[visualwealth]

Do you actually believe that Africa is in such bad shape because of white people? That's ridiculous. Look at the country and what's going on. The black leaders are corrupt and oppressing their own people, stealing aid from other countries, and committing rapes and murders. The country is just in need of a major overhaul. I don't understand why it continues to be so dilapidated and in need of help. There is no development and I don't see it improving anytime soon. If they were such strong-willed and resourceful people, wouldn't they be able to overcome these obstacles and advance? Who do you think is providing most of the aid to the country anyway? The United States with its "evil" white people.

when you said "The country is just in need of a major overhaul" I stopped reading..

-speaking of corruption and oppression does the same thing not happen here??

murders and rapes??? what about electricuting people to death( much more noble )

And, all those rapers we watch getting arrested on tv every night??

 

[WUcrewbie]

Let us end our conversation here!

Well damn, don't go getting our hopes up!!!

 

[topdogg82]

riceman to answer your question you have to look at the system in india- back when our parents were growing up, basically the only two choices for post-college that were considered for kids was either biology leading to medicine or engineering. everything else was looked down upon, so for indians, their perception of what constitutes 'success' has been defined by their parents from india who lived in this system. that is why so many indian parents really push their kids to go into one of these two fields. the only indians that differ from this view are the business ones, but for them business has been in their family blood for many generations spanning back to india (well known stereotype of patels as being a huge business network). so unless you're born into a business, indians almost always push their kids into medicine or engineering. of course, kids always have a choice ultimately to go against their parents, but there is a lot of social pressure within the indian community and even more put on by the parents to remain 'on line' and become a doctor/engineer. parents use the struggles of immigration to justify pushing their kids as in "we came all the way from india and sacrificed so much and worked hard to make a better life for you" so how is it too much to ask to make sure u join a good profession? of course, their definition of a 'good' profession is pretty narrow as aforementioned. basically no indian parent wants to have the 'kid who didnt become a doctor/engineer and "ruined" his/her life' by doing an average job so in this fear they push their kids toward these professions where they think failure is extremely unlikely relatively (doctors usually dont have to worry about being fired...). as future generations of indians become more 'americanized' i think you'll start seeing less of this and indians branch out into fields that you dont see them in now (ala TV and other media...) b/c they act more independently from their parents.

as for the 'unfair treatment' which u admitted to, we'll just have to agree to disagree i guess. IMO if someone is treated unfairly, and the difference is delineated by race, it constitutes racism (maybe not the worst kind but still a form of it).