Am I completely hosed?

[Ninnerfish]

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So just when I thought this spring couldn't get any worse, I have been stuck with the single worst Organic Chemistry prof who has ever taught! He's one semester away from moving to another school and just doesn't care at all if he actually teaches our class. During lectures, he'll start giving mechanisms, get halfway through, and then say "and then you just finish the other steps" without ever TEACHING those steps. His practice exams are fairly easy, but then each test contains material we've never covered in class. I'm completely lost and my grade is bordering on miserable.

The kicker is that almost everyone else in the class feels the same way. We started the semester with around 90 students, we now have around 40 and more people are planning on dropping before the deadline this Friday. Among these students are premeds, prevets, and even chem majors (many of whom have never seen a B before in their lives), so I know it's not just me whining. A bunch of students went to the Chair about this prof and there's a meeting about the situation tomorrow with the chair and the dean.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with this class. I got waitlisted for vet school this year, meaning I could potentially get a phone call this summer saying I got in. But if I drop this class and take it again in the fall with another professor, I wouldn't have the prereq to start vet school. Plus it will look like I'm a bad student who couldn't handle the work load. On the flip side, if I stay in this class and do as terribly as I feel like I'm going to, and don't get in vet school this year, it's going to ruin my GPA and my chances of even getting an interview next year.

I don't know what to do! I'm near tears thinking about how this one stupid class could destroy my chances of ever fulfilling my dream of becoming a vet.

 

[fierymicky]

Is there a way for you to take this class over the summer? If not at your college, then at a local college whose credits will transfer? That way you will have the class completed by August in case you get called off the wait-list.

 

[Ninnerfish]

They aren't offering it as of yet, but I'm hoping that enough people will bring it up at the meeting tomorrow that they will. I'm just worried that no matter what I do, if I'm not accepted this year, it's going to look bad to schools next year. And if I blame it on a bad professor, it's going to sound whiny and immature.

 

[fierymicky]

I was in a similar situation with my O. Chem class as well, due to a professor that failed 80% of his students. I dropped it, and retook the class over the summer.

If you stick with the class, and get a grade that you aren't too pleased with, does your school have a grade replacement program? Where you can retake the class for a different grade? That could be another alternative to look into.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It also depends on your definition of "bordering on miserable" Are we talking a B minus here, or and F? The former you don't need to worry about. The latter, yes.

 

[david594]

They aren't offering it as of yet, but I'm hoping that enough people will bring it up at the meeting tomorrow that they will. I'm just worried that no matter what I do, if I'm not accepted this year, it's going to look bad to schools next year. And if I blame it on a bad professor, it's going to sound whiny and immature.

I would be very wary of dropping it this semester planning to take it during the summer.

From the Illinois website:

No more than two prerequisite courses may be incomplete (pending) following the fall term during which the application is submitted. Courses “in progress” during the fall term are not considered incomplete. Pending courses taken after the fall term (spring term) must be listed on the Planned Prerequisite Courses form in the VMCAS application. ALL PREREQUISITE course work must be completed by the end of the spring term prior to the fall term of matriculation to the College of Veterinary Medicine.

 

[tpad40]

Sounds like an unpleasant situation! I would definitely not drop it though. David's post is right on - a lot of schools want everything completed by the end of Spring semester (I looked into taking BioChem over the summer and both Ohio and VMRCVM required pre-reqs to be completed by the end of Spring). To be sure, you could email your waitlist schools to ask specifically.

As much as it stinks, maybe try to meet with the prof and talk about it. He can't give *everyone* a terrible grade (or at least I'd hope that your school admin would step in before he did!) so do everything you can to be at the top. At my undergrad Orgo I, a 56 or above was a B and a 72 or above was an A. So ridiculous!

Worst case scenario, if you stick with it and end up getting a terrible grade you can always retake it or take an upper level chem (sounds appealing doesn't it!).

 

[Ninnerfish]

OChem is my absolute worst subject. I got A's in Inorganic, but I struggled with Organic I in the fall (got a B- and worked my ass off for it). My grades in the class thus far don't give me much hope of anything resembling a B if I stick it out. Realistically, I doubt Illinois is going to be calling me off the waitlist, but I can't completely rule out the possibility either. My GPA overall isn't shameful, but it's pretty mediocre for a prevet, which makes me loathe to chance lowering it any further. At the same time, I think it looks pretty lame if I drop such an important class during what was supposed to be my last semester. *bangs head on desk*

 

[dyachei]

Can you take it at another school in the summer?

 

[Ninnerfish]

I could, but the other school is quite a drive from where I live now. I suppose if it comes to that, I really have no choice.

 

[Caninerepro]

My suggestion is to stick it out. Most professional schools know that O Chem is a weeder class, and do not expect you to do all that well in it. It is fairly standard practice for the chem department to intentionally make it hard so that it will deflect the marginal chem majors who don't really belong there, plus remember that chemistry is a physical science, and those people think differently than we do - literally. 🙂 They are math and physics oriented mentally. We are biological thinkers, a different way of wiring the brain.
Honestly it is not that important of a class as far as what you are going to be doing in vet school -- as a practitioner you are not going to need to worry about bond angles and the precise chirality of a molecule. God I can't believe I remember all that BS. My question is, and this is usually the reason they make us take O Chem, what about Biochem? That is usually what you take after O Chem, and you need it for vet school and that does apply to what we do. If you are taking O Chem now, and graduating this semester, when are you taking that Biochem course that requires O Chem as a prereq? Biochem grades DO matter to vet schools! You do need to nail Biochem in my opinion, but that class is not nearly as bad.
It is OK for your C to be in a class like O Chem. Mine was in Calculus, another useless class for vet school, but usually required for most science undergrad majors. Another thought, are you going to be able to nail your other classes this semester. One C and the rest A's shows that OK you struggled in one class, but did great in the rest. Third thought: finish your degree this semester, then take like two or three harder upper division science classes during the summer as a postbac, and nail those! That way if you need to apply next cycle, you will have those on your transcript as the last thing they see, and will show that you CAN do kick ass classes in a group, maybe just not O Chem -- one solitary topic. Hang in there, it is worth it in the end!

 

[LittleGato]

I am all for you hanging in there. Can you go to his office hours to get personal attention?? Are there chemistry tutors available? Do what you can to get through. You just need to get a C, right? I guess you could say that my White Whale was immunology. Each test was cumulative with essay questions🙁. But I read the chapters, answered the questions, and went to my teacher's office hours with anything I didn't understand. As for organic, I pretty much stayed at my prof's office working out the problems in the book I couldn't get. I hope you do well!!🙂

 

[hopefulvet21]

My suggestion is to stick it out. Most professional schools know that O Chem is a weeder class, and do not expect you to do all that well in it. It is fairly standard practice for the chem department to intentionally make it hard so that it will deflect the marginal chem majors who don't really belong there, plus remember that chemistry is a physical science, and those people think differently than we do - literally. 🙂 They are math and physics oriented mentally. We are biological thinkers, a different way of wiring the brain.
Honestly it is not that important of a class as far as what you are going to be doing in vet school -- as a practitioner you are not going to need to worry about bond angles and the precise chirality of a molecule. God I can't believe I remember all that BS. My question is, and this is usually the reason they make us take O Chem, what about Biochem? That is usually what you take after O Chem, and you need it for vet school and that does apply to what we do. If you are taking O Chem now, and graduating this semester, when are you taking that Biochem course that requires O Chem as a prereq? Biochem grades DO matter to vet schools! You do need to nail Biochem in my opinion, but that class is not nearly as bad.
It is OK for your C to be in a class like O Chem. Mine was in Calculus, another useless class for vet school, but usually required for most science undergrad majors. Another thought, are you going to be able to nail your other classes this semester. One C and the rest A's shows that OK you struggled in one class, but did great in the rest. Third thought: finish your degree this semester, then take like two or three harder upper division science classes during the summer as a postbac, and nail those! That way if you need to apply next cycle, you will have those on your transcript as the last thing they see, and will show that you CAN do kick ass classes in a group, maybe just not O Chem -- one solitary topic. Hang in there, it is worth it in the end!

I just want to point out that although the substance of classes like Organic chem and calculus may not be directly relevant to the substance of things learned in vet school, they have us take them to prove that we can think logically. I do not think that "biological" thinking is any different than the way you have to deduce things in o-chem or math classes. It is all logic and critical thinking. I don't think there are different kinds of that. And everything in biology would not exist without the laws of chemistry, which would not exist without physical and mathematical laws. There are infinite connections between the subjects, and the idea behind having us take them is not so we know stereochemistry of diels-alder reactions, but so that we get a very broad understanding of basic sciences. JMHO.

 

[Mistoffeles]

I just want to point out that although the substance of classes like Organic chem and calculus may not be directly relevant to the substance of things learned in vet school, they have us take them to prove that we can think logically. I do not think that "biological" thinking is any different than the way you have to deduce things in o-chem or math classes. It is all logic and critical thinking. I don't think there are different kinds of that. And everything in biology would not exist without the laws of chemistry, which would not exist without physical and mathematical laws. There are infinite connections between the subjects, and the idea behind having us take them is not so we know stereochemistry of diels-alder reactions, but so that we get a very broad understanding of basic sciences. JMHO.

I second the above. Plus, if you want to work in veterinary pharmacology, o-chem is important (such as the debate about domitor vs. dexdomitor, the latter which contains only the levo- form while the former contains both enatiomers). 🙂

but that's not necessarily germane to the question of withdrawing or doing as well as you can. speaking as someone who withdrew from o-chem the first time i took it, and then kicked its butt (relatively) with a B the next semester, i can see the benefits of ducking out.

however, that may end up impacting Illinois. did a previous poster mention sending a note to or calling the admissions office and asking about this? explain the situation (including the fact that the department has been made aware of the professor's shortcomings), and find out their views.

 

[VAgirl]

did a previous poster mention sending a note to or calling the admissions office and asking about this? explain the situation (including the fact that the department has been made aware of the professor's shortcomings), and find out their views.

That's a fantastic idea...why speculate about the impact it will have when you can get an answer straight from the horse's mouth as it were.

Though I'd get whatever they tell you in writing so that you have a copy in case they later don't remember they told you that.

 

[dgm]

Hopefully you have already stopped in to talk with the professor about your grades, and get an idea of how he thinks you're doing. If you can pull off a C or better, I'd hang in there.

For the record, one class is not going to ruin your shot at vet school. You should see my transcript - I got 10 C's, 3 D's, and an F along the way (obviously, I retook my D & F classes). Not all of those were in prerequisites (the ones that weren't were engineering classes), and my undergrad was at a trimester school, but still, that's a fairly large number of scary grades for the pre-vet crowd. But they still let me in...

Also, by your last semester, a single course really shouldn't have a terribly large impact on your GPA. Work out the math - what is the difference in your cumulative GPA if you get a C- vs. an A+ in this course?

 

[david594]

I second the above. Plus, if you want to work in veterinary pharmacology, o-chem is important (such as the debate about domitor vs. dexdomitor, the latter which contains only the levo- form while the former contains both enatiomers). 🙂

You mean the latter only containing the dex- enantiomer right? 😉

Otherwise we would be buying Levodomitor....

This is actually the example I always use about some of the useful things we have learned in o-chem.

 

[sumstorm]

I think I would be hard pressed to call IL and discuss it with them, just because if you are still on a waitlist, it could still be seen as making excuses. That is just my personal feelings... I dont know if they have a strict wait list rank or if any additional information would influence it.

If you haven't spoken with the professor, now would be the time. And every time he says 'you can finish the rest' schedule an appointment to make sure you can finish the rest (he may sincerly believe that the material from early classes should make that viable.)

If he refuses office hours, meetings, and specific questions, that is easier to document and report to deans than 'he just is a bad professor.'

If I could get a C or above (I think that is the lowest pre-req grade for some schools) I would stick it out.

 

[david594]

For the record, one class is not going to ruin your shot at vet school. You should see my transcript - I got 10 C's, 3 D's, and an F along the way (obviously, I retook my D & F classes).

But the OP is in quite the unique situation though. Dropping the class or pulling a D could definitely keep her from attending vet school come fall if she does get off the waiting list.

 

[Mistoffeles]

You mean the latter only containing the dex- enantiomer right? 😉

Otherwise we would be buying Levodomitor....

<------ blushes.

what he said.

 

[dgm]

But the OP is in quite the unique situation though. Dropping the class or pulling a D could definitely keep her from attending vet school come fall if she does get off the waiting list.

True - I was just addressing the melodramatic "I'm near tears thinking about how this one stupid class could destroy my chances of ever fulfilling my dream of becoming a vet", and trying to put it in perspective so she can calm down a little. If going this fall is her concern, she really ought to stay in the class and bust her butt to pull off at least a C:
-If she stays in and gets a C, and doesn't get in off the waitlist, it's not going to completely screw her over on future applications.
-But if she withdraws and the waitlist schools call this year, she's screwed.
-If she withdraws now, she'll have to retake anyways for the next application cycle - and I'm not sure it really makes much difference whether it's a "W" and retake, or a "D" and retake - because like I said, ONE class on its own is not going to stop her from "ever fulfilling her dream".

The only good reason I can see to give up on this class now is if there is no chance of getting a C - in which case it's already a given that she is not starting vet school this fall.

 

[david594]

The only good reason I can see to give up on this class now is if there is no chance of getting a C - in which case it's already a given that she is not starting vet school this fall.

Agreed.

And I wouldn't assume anything about O-chem grades without first talking to the professor and at least get their opinion on how you are doing. Some O-chem classes end up having a surprisingly aggressive curve where you might not be doing as bad as you think.

 

[VAgirl]

I think I would be hard pressed to call IL and discuss it with them, just because if you are still on a waitlist, it could still be seen as making excuses.

The OP doesn't have to give their name! Just discuss generally.

 

[sumstorm]

The OP doesn't have to give their name! Just discuss generally.

Unfortunatly, if she goes general, she will get the standard answer: "ALL PREREQUISITE course work must be completed by the end of the spring term prior to the fall term of matriculation to the College of Veterinary Medicine. "

 

[VAgirl]

Unfortunatly, if she goes general, she will get the standard answer: "ALL PREREQUISITE course work must be completed by the end of the spring term prior to the fall term of matriculation to the College of Veterinary Medicine. "

She doesn't have to go too general. She could say, "hi, I'm on the waitlist and have an outstanding prereq that I'm enrolled in this semester. Unfortunately, there are circumstances beyond my control that are making me consider dropping it and seeking enrollment in another section of the course this summer. I wanted to check first to be sure that it wouldn't affect my eligibility to remain on the wait list."

Provides all the necessary information, doesn't give finger pointing or excuse making details, and doesn't even need to ID herself. No reason why she can't do that.

Perhaps if they don't provide useful information after that exchange, she might have to consider going more specific, but it's certainly worth a shot at least.

 

[Caninerepro]

I just want to point out that although the substance of classes like Organic chem and calculus may not be directly relevant to the substance of things learned in vet school, they have us take them to prove that we can think logically. I do not think that "biological" thinking is any different than the way you have to deduce things in o-chem or math classes. It is all logic and critical thinking. I don't think there are different kinds of that. And everything in biology would not exist without the laws of chemistry, which would not exist without physical and mathematical laws. There are infinite connections between the subjects, and the idea behind having us take them is not so we know stereochemistry of diels-alder reactions, but so that we get a very broad understanding of basic sciences. JMHO.

Well said as a physical science major! My sperm donor has a PhD in physical chemistry, but that does not mean my brain is wired the same way his is. I understand that p chem majors do not understand how us simple plebes cannot comprehend something as simple as organic chemistry. I also understand how they are entirely bitter about the fact that we will do something practical and useful with our lives, while they shall spend their entire lives in little white lab coats trying to figure out how to use a PS2 to calculate bond angles. Not a joke, ask any chem grad student, it is a real quest! But, the truth is they could not do our jobs either -- there are far too many variables and messy not black and white answers for them to ever accept our reality.

Listen, the prof I took o chem from reminded us daily that he was one of the scientists that collaborated to invent Nutri-Sweet, and it was his last semester teaching before he retired so he did not give a crap about us. When I had my father call him, they both ended up joking about what *****s we were for not understanding something so basic and simplistic as an undergrad o chem course.

The essence is, one class will not make or break you. Just take your licks and move on. We all have, and in the end everyone will still call us Doctor! 😎

 

[Ninnerfish]

So... update: Our professor got pulled from the class! Apparently, the problems I'm experiencing are more than just personal shortcomings with the subject because the Dean of the department has replaced our prof and restructured the entire class for the rest of the semester. They're giving us a new professor, regrading our old tests (and throwing out the lowest grade), and are going to attempt to re-teach everything from the beginning of the semester in addition to the material we've yet to cover. I feel like I've just been given one hell of a lifeline. It's going to be a lot of work, but knowing that my chances at vet school aren't ruined feels so great. Thanks for everyone's advice, it was good to hear voices of reason.

 

[flyhi]

So... update: Our professor got pulled from the class! Apparently, the problems I'm experiencing are more than just personal shortcomings with the subject because the Dean of the department has replaced our prof and restructured the entire class for the rest of the semester. They're giving us a new professor, regrading our old tests (and throwing out the lowest grade), and are going to attempt to re-teach everything from the beginning of the semester in addition to the material we've yet to cover. I feel like I've just been given one hell of a lifeline. It's going to be a lot of work, but knowing that my chances at vet school aren't ruined feels so great. Thanks for everyone's advice, it was good to hear voices of reason.

that's great news! Such a shame though - sounds like you've lost out on half a semester of information 😡. Wow, prof must have been reallllllly terrible for them to do that..... Good Luck!!

 

[tpad40]

That's awesome (well not awesome that that happened, but awesome that your school is dealing with it appropriately!). Good luck with the rest of your semester 🙂

 

[Ninnerfish]

Yeah, my understanding is that it's pretty unprecedented for them to remove a tenured professor like that (although it makes me feel totally vindicated). I'm more than willing to relearn the stuff from the beginning with a new prof if it means a second chance at a decent grade. And thanks again, everybody, for the encouragement!

 

[hopefulvet21]

Well said as a physical science major! My sperm donor has a PhD in physical chemistry, but that does not mean my brain is wired the same way his is. I understand that p chem majors do not understand how us simple plebes cannot comprehend something as simple as organic chemistry. I also understand how they are entirely bitter about the fact that we will do something practical and useful with our lives, while they shall spend their entire lives in little white lab coats trying to figure out how to use a PS2 to calculate bond angles. Not a joke, ask any chem grad student, it is a real quest! But, the truth is they could not do our jobs either -- there are far too many variables and messy not black and white answers for them to ever accept our reality.

Listen, the prof I took o chem from reminded us daily that he was one of the scientists that collaborated to invent Nutri-Sweet, and it was his last semester teaching before he retired so he did not give a crap about us. When I had my father call him, they both ended up joking about what *****s we were for not understanding something so basic and simplistic as an undergrad o chem course.

The essence is, one class will not make or break you. Just take your licks and move on. We all have, and in the end everyone will still call us Doctor! 😎

That's right, one class won't make or break you. But all that stuff those "bitter" chem majors do is completely relevant and important to our profession. I doubt they're bitter at all. It's rude to assume that about other professionals.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think caninerepro was joking about the bitter thing...sarcasm doesn't come off well on los Interwebs But then again, I'm a biochemist and I'm pretty bitter 😀

 

[DVMorBust]

All I have to say is - wow. Kudos for sticking it out with a professor who was bad enough to need replacing. Organic's one of those classes (in my experience) that has half the class hating almost any given professor...the fact that yours was deserving enough of it to get removed? All I can say is 😱

 

[Caninerepro]

I think caninerepro was joking about the bitter thing...sarcasm doesn't come off well on los Interwebs But then again, I'm a biochemist and I'm pretty bitter 😀

You are only bitter because your pH is above 7. Sorry, I simply could not refuse, and yes I am being sarcastic. Really sarcastic, and nerdy.😛

I will have to say, I have never even heard of a professor, much less one with tenure, being unceromoniously replaced like that. Wow! That is something you will probably never see again in your lifetime. Wow!

Yes I know, relearning everything with only half a semester to go will suck and be a big ordeal. However, I have a feeling that the professor you do get to replace the last, and the class as a whole, will be so motivated to make things right and do well that this will probably be one of those once in a lifetime really cool deals, and you will probably walk away from the experience knowing more o chem, and feeling better about the experience, than with almost any other class in your undergrad career. yes you will have to work your tail off, but you will probably really enjoy your time with your nose to the grindstone. Aren't you glad you did not drop the class now! Wow.😀

 

[carolinaowl]

But, the truth is they could not do our jobs either -- there are far too many variables and messy not black and white answers for them to ever accept our reality.

Yes, they could do our jobs. I majored in chemistry, and was employed as a chemist for several years after college. I start vet school in the fall. I was a good chemist and I will be a good vet.

 

[Caninerepro]

Yes, they could do our jobs. I majored in chemistry, and was employed as a chemist for several years after college. I start vet school in the fall. I was a good chemist and I will be a good vet.

Oh man, listen I was talking about the research chemists with PhD's, like my father. I was actually basing my comments off of what I know of him, and what he has told me about the chemists he worked with and studied under, as well as himself. I mean no disrespect, I have a good friend who has an undergrad degree in chemistry and is heading to med school. But my experience, and the mentality of most of the people I have met who have been in the field for 20+ years is that those people in general think in a different manner than the biology professors, and prefer a different manner of working than do most biology/med/vets do. That was all, sorry if I came off as saying anyone who has ever set foot in a chemistry lab is an evil person, that was not my intention.

 

[thnythe]

I think I saw others mention it as well, but if you can get a good tutor that would help a lot.

Perhaps if you can assemble a study group, then you can have a people to help with studying/assignments (or at least you can all feel miserable and frustrated together!).

Asking the prof for help 1 on 1 or even other chem profs in the department is another option.

Finally, working really hard (which it sounds like you're already doing) is key.

Those are some ways I made it through tough subjects with bad profs, finding support is essential!

Good luck!