I am a sophomore undergrad at a college in Boston, and I am really trying to be on the right track for med school. I took gen eds last year as an undecided major, this year I'm taking all science classes. I have a 3.7, and currently have a work study job and an internship at some of the med schools/hospitals in the area. I am working hard this year, since the work load for Bio and Chem are a lot.. I'm assuming it will only get much worse as the years go by. My only concern is that hard work won't be enough in the future. I'm worried if I am actually intelligent enough to be a doctor. My SAT scores were around 1250, which isn't anything impressive. I did slack off in high school though. I'm just afraid that even with 5+ hours of studying a day in med school, I just won't have the brains to handle it. So my main question is, is it possible to get through undergrad pre-med curriculum, MCATs, and Med School without being exceptionally bright? Thanks
Am I smart enough for med school?
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The vast majority of those who start med school, finish it. Of those who drop out, some have life crises that force them to drop out, some decide being a doctor isn't what they want to do, and some really can't handle it or don't want to put in the effort needed to succeed. The small number who actually can't handle it, the ones who slip through the cracks of admissions screenings, should give you confidence that if you can maintain the grades, MCAT score, and EC's needed to gain admission to med school, you have what it takes to make it through med school.
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The fact that you're asking this means probably means you will be fine. People tend to get into trouble when they start relying on their intelligence and forget that even the smartest person in the world has to pick up a book once in a while.
You'll be fine. As my engineering friends say, med students aren't that smart anyways
You'll be fine. As my engineering friends say, med students aren't that smart anyways
It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to be a doctor, just a lot of hard work. Some people only need an hour a day to make it; some need 5 or 6. Just do well in your classes and rock the MCAT. You can worry about med school during med school. (And there's usually tutoring for students who need it...)
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Med school (and residency, for that matter) is a lot of hard work, but it's very difficult to actually fail. Once you've made it past the admissions process, med schools try their hardest not to fail you. At my school, this means that if you fail an exam, there's always a "remediation" option. Even our admin people joke that med school is "pass now or pass later." Obviously, you'll have issues matching into competitive specialties if you're a marginal student, but as long as you can make it in, you'll get to become a doctor at the end.
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Just to clarify, the 1250 is only counting the verbal and math, right?
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No.
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I have wondered about this too. I guess it's normal... The way I think about it is that if I make it into med school, the only way I'd finish is with an MD/DO behind my name or dead....jk.
Just keep going and give your best at everything you do and see where life takes you
Just keep going and give your best at everything you do and see where life takes you
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Keep your grades up and you'll do fine. The only critical stages that are difficult on the medical path are the MCAT and Board exams. If you put in a few months of studying beforehand, they aren't that bad.
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Don't worry about it. There aren't that many bright people applying for med school like you think it is. Many of them get in with average stats.
Also, most of the posters on SDN with great stats are actually trolls and flamers, who want to feel superior to others. A small group are really intelligent, but I wouldn't worry about it unless you're aiming for Top 20.
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Just go for it, you're still in undergrad. If you're not good enough for one reason or another then the process will find a way to weed you out at some point. Once you get into medical school, then you are likely good enough. The people who drop out of their premed goals are either unmotivated or exceedingly stupid.
For the record, I came from your background in high school, my hsGPA = 2.2 and SAT scores weren't even viable for any schools that takes it into consideration. I'm doing fine now.
For the record, I came from your background in high school, my hsGPA = 2.2 and SAT scores weren't even viable for any schools that takes it into consideration. I'm doing fine now.
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You have to be reasonably intelligent to get into med school, but you certainly don't have to be a genius. If you work hard and can memorize a lot of material, you'll be fine. Remember, P=MD
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Girl next to me in math class was doing her ochem homework and didn't know what cyclohexane was. We are about a month into school now. She wears obnoxious premed shirts to class every other day..... You're fine, relatively.
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that is a decent score on the old one. Nothing spectacular but I know several people in science PhD programs who scored below that on the old test. I have no idea what the new test is scored like....
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I supposed this is technically accurate due to the "+", but keep going
Med school has more to do with the work put in than the brains put in.
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The fact that you're asking this means probably means you will be fine. People tend to get into trouble when they start relying on their intelligence and forget that even the smartest person in the world has to pick up a book once in a while.
You'll be fine. As my engineering friends say, med students aren't that smart anyways
There you go op. You'll make it!
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Yeah, he's definitely on top of the bell curve.
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Yes, 1250 on two sections, I don't count the third section of my SATs. And thanks, i'm just going to keep working hard and study for my MCATs a lot.
I should take the MCATs after the first semester of junior year? Also, will I be okay without having taken Orgo II
I should take the MCATs after the first semester of junior year? Also, will I be okay without having taken Orgo II
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1250 is a very respectable score if your counting only M/CR. I'm not in medical school but i can tell you that getting good grades really depends on just YOU. When you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you'll be successful.
A 1250 on math/critical reading isn't a bad score. As long as you are putting in the time and aren't gunning to honors every class, you should be fine. It might take you a bit more time than some of your peers to read or learn new information, but everyone is different and just stick to what works for you.
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Medical school is very very doable. Study 4 hours a day, ramp it up during exam weeks and you'll be fine. The difficulty of medical school is overrated on these parts. I think dental school may be slightly more work.
I have a few classmates who scored 24-27 on the MCAT and they are doing just fine. There's someone who scored 25 on the MCAT and he is top 5 in his class. There are many programs more difficult than medical school, for example completing a BS in mathematics or physics.
Just be prepared to memorize a lot in medical school--this takes a lot of time though. What gets you through medical school is more hard work than intelligence.
I have a few classmates who scored 24-27 on the MCAT and they are doing just fine. There's someone who scored 25 on the MCAT and he is top 5 in his class. There are many programs more difficult than medical school, for example completing a BS in mathematics or physics.
Just be prepared to memorize a lot in medical school--this takes a lot of time though. What gets you through medical school is more hard work than intelligence.
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You're expected to be on campus more. Otherwise, not really. I've studied with friends in dental school where we have overlapping (but separate) classes. If they are working harder, there is only 1 explanation and it isn't terrible flattering.
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Take the MCAT after you have completed all the pre reqs and have had enough time to study. Orgo II may or may not be covered in detail on your exam, some will say it isn't needed and some will say it is. It comes down to how lucky you are in the passages and questions on the MCAT version you take. To be safe, take Orgo II first. Either way, give yourself plenty of time to study.
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it depends when you want to enter medical school, but its best to take it after you've finished all the pre-requisites.
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Yo let me just be real with you. Most people I know that are getting into med school and in med school aren't exceptionally bright. They are just simply hardworking and get their stuff done and have disciple, which is key. Heck, some don't even have that and they're fine. I used to doubt myself this way too (and I had pretty decent statistics from high school) and I think it's natural to ask yourself these questions. Don't doubt, just do. It will help ya in the long run! Good luck, you smart cookie you!
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this is what I get for skimming....
Are you in medical school and did you get either of those degrees? My BS is in chemistry and spent a year doing abstract calculus to model and derive chemical principles. Doesn't hold a candle to medical school in terms of work required. No, nothing in medical school is overly complex or conceptually difficult. But for the math based majors (chem, physics, and duh.... math) all you really need is a comfortable grasp of how numbers work, a few key equations, and plenty of scratch paper to get the job done. You cannot cram for a med school test where I crammed for every calc test I ever took.
how necessary is physics 1 or 2 for the MCAT? I have to take calc 1 and 2 before taking physics 1 and 2, so I won't finish those courses until I graduate. I may suck it up and take the MCAT without physics 2
If you can't sit down and memorize reams of random facts you may find medical school impossible.
I did a minor in mathematics [I took all the math engineers take and some more] and it required more analytical brain power than medical school, especially on courses like number theory where we had to write lots of proofs. I also spent almost two years teaching myself a specialized form of a physical technique in graduate school. One of the books I read was less than 250 pages but it was pretty dense analytically and very involving. Yes, reading Guyton's Medical Physiology or Devlin's Medical Biochemistry will take me more time, but that doesn't mean I find the material more difficult.
As someone who took physical chemistry, you should appreciate that it's more difficult to derive the experimentally-friendly equations used by JJ Thomson in determining the charge-to-mass ratio of the electron, or the equations of Robert Millikan for experimentally quantifying the charge of the electron. I have read both experimental treatises, and I am always in awe at their creative work using elementary differential calculus and linear algebra combined with some very beautiful experiments. That's harder to do than honoring my medical school exams.
In year 1 of grad school, I crammed for a renal physiology exam and scored right at the average. I just stayed up for 23 hours and zoomed through 10 lectures. This was with medical students at a top 5 medical school too, although I agree cramming won't get you far typically. And calculus is baby math, and it can be made hard enough so that cramming won't save you.
Summary: there are many things that are harder than medical school. I get irritated when some of my classmates talk as if medical school is the hardest thing on earth. It isn't and it's very very doable. Just put in the time. Yes, I am in an MD program.
I did a minor in mathematics [I took all the math engineers take and some more] and it required more analytical brain power than medical school, especially on courses like number theory where we had to write lots of proofs. I also spent almost two years teaching myself a specialized form of a physical technique in graduate school. One of the books I read was less than 250 pages but it was pretty dense analytically and very involving. Yes, reading Guyton's Medical Physiology or Devlin's Medical Biochemistry will take me more time, but that doesn't mean I find the material more difficult.
As someone who took physical chemistry, you should appreciate that it's more difficult to derive the experimentally-friendly equations used by JJ Thomson in determining the charge-to-mass ratio of the electron, or the equations of Robert Millikan for experimentally quantifying the charge of the electron. I have read both experimental treatises, and I am always in awe at their creative work using elementary differential calculus and linear algebra combined with some very beautiful experiments. That's harder to do than honoring my medical school exams.
In year 1 of grad school, I crammed for a renal physiology exam and scored right at the average. I just stayed up for 23 hours and zoomed through 10 lectures. This was with medical students at a top 5 medical school too, although I agree cramming won't get you far typically. And calculus is baby math, and it can be made hard enough so that cramming won't save you.
Summary: there are many things that are harder than medical school. I get irritated when some of my classmates talk as if medical school is the hardest thing on earth. It isn't and it's very very doable. Just put in the time. Yes, I am in an MD program.
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Don't be stupid. Applying to medical school should be a 1 time deal, or 2 times if your really unlucky. Your "most" likely going to end up with a score you don't want in PS. Take your time, do well on the MCAT and put your best foot forward, not the fastest.
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And as someone who took freshmen English (as all freshmen do) you should appreciate that I covered this in my post.
Difficulty is a function of both conceptual challenge and of volume. There are plenty of subjects more conceptually challenging. There are none with the volume. Also there is not a single educational program in existence that requires more effort in studying than medicine. Effort directly varies with difficulty.
Even in considering the conceptual challenge that pchem, achem, calc, difEq, and physics (which is a joke in the intro classes) posed, nothing in the UG curriculum for any program around these holds a candle to medical curriculum. For what med curriculum lacks in complexity (and even renal phys is pretty straight forward.... you don't know complicated until you are commuting waveform operators) it makes up for in volume. What is more difficult, deriving the meaning of pi, or memorizing the constant to the 100th variable? the 1000th? the 1e20th? If med schools were an environment where I were deriving equations I would be AOA in a heartbeat. Just remember that "difficulty" is an all encompassing term. We aren't at odds if you are saying things are more complex.... but being more complex doesn't necessarily make it more difficult.
To the bold part: well.... if those guys got a BS in physics for that work I would assume your earlier point is valid
Except.... citing experiments done by the guys who wrote the books does absolutely nothing to support your claim that the guys getting bachelors degrees in those subjects have it worse. By that logic, the English majors have the toughest curriculum in the world. Do you have any idea how long it took us to develop spoken language!?>??
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Medical students are so deluded. Are you kidding me???. Keep on spewing garbage
I think dental school has just as much volume (if not slightly more) for the first two years. Without a doubt, receiving a PhD in experimental or theoretical physics from your mid-tier research university is harder than medical school, even when you account for volume.
I'm about to start studying ( from midnight till 7 AM or 8 AM), but that doesn't make my life hard. My PI from graduate school regularly read/reviewed papers and grants while running a lab and being an administrator at a major research university. That ****s on my workload in medical school. If you think medical school is difficult, wait till you get to residency. One my classmates looked at me in disbelief because I workout 3 times a week and cook twice a week--"Where do you get the time?" Funny girl
I am not at all trying to undermine medical school. I study on average 2-3 hrs a day, and three days before exams I hardly sleep. In graduate school, I was in lab 10-12 hrs a day, and I had to go home and read papers, design and trouble shoot experiments, have anxiety about that result or experiment that didn't work, etc. Medical school has been pretty doable and relatively stress-free, although prepping for boards will be an entire beast of itself.
I'm not at all worried about my ability to be a successful physician. I worry more about my ability to be a successful physician scientist. Again, get over yourself. There are lots of things harder than medical school.
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Medical students are so deluded. Are you kidding me???. Keep on spewing garbage
I think dental school has just as much volume (if not slightly more) for the first two years. Without a doubt, receiving a PhD in experimental or theoretical physics from your mid-tier research university is harder than medical school, even when you account for volume.
I'm about to start studying ( from midnight till 7 AM or 8 AM), but that doesn't make my life hard. My PI from graduate school regularly read/reviewed papers and grants while running a lab and being an administrator at a major research university. That ****s on my workload in medical school. If you think medical school is difficult, wait till you get to residency. One my classmates looked at me in disbelief because I workout 3 times a week and cook twice a week--"Where do you get the time?" Funny girl
I am not at all trying to undermine medical school. I study on average 2-3 hrs a day, and three days before exams I hardly sleep. In graduate school, I was in lab 10-12 hrs a day, and I had to go home and read papers, design and trouble shoot experiments, have anxiety about that result or experiment that didn't work, etc. Medical school has been pretty doable and relatively stress-free, although prepping for boards will be an entire beast of itself.
I'm not at all worried about my ability to be a successful physician. I worry more about my ability to be a successful physician scientist. Again, get over yourself. There are lots of things harder than medical school.
what makes you think dental school has more volume? is it the additional scope of Rx privileges? The expanded scope of anatomy they need?
no... as I said earlier, I have studied with dental students and even helped them out in some classes. They don't have more volume. The thing that sucks for them is getting stuck at school for long hours off the bat where med students largely get to learn from home if they desire.Getting a PhD is also largely what you make of it. There is not as much sheer volume and much of your degree depends on your project and whether or not you can produce novel work. I have seen people graduate all manor of PhD programs with a pretty wide spectrum of work input. Still, the didactic course load simply pales in comparison. I am not dogging on these programs, but you want to simply discredit any and all difficulty involved in volume and instead act like the only thing that matters towards difficulty is conceptual challenge. Believe you me, I wish med school were a conceptual challenge. it is way more up my alley than the volume angle. But that is what it is. I get the feeling you have no idea what it takes to do these other degrees but simply are trying to connect "this crap hard! and me can't smart on it enough!" to "need to work long hours to keep my PI happy" and attempt to muster up a point
You haven't really said what your background is.... working long hours sucks. It isnt "difficult". People with minimal passing grades on their GED work long hours. This is all I am trying to get across to you in your point. If you want to stick to the dental school thing, sure, it is tough to manage clinic and coursework early on. Their coursework still isnt as expansive (at least it isnt at my school) nor is it as in depth as the med curriculum, nor should it be. we don't need a DDS with a DPM's education now, do we?
. After the didactic years, I am honestly not aware of a grad student (and via dating one, I know a plethora) that will pull the hours of an MS3/4. And the dental kids get their 9-5 and otherwise get to go home. If you managed to learn how to cope with the stress by completing another degree elsewhere, fine. But let's remember that you compared a BS to an MD a little bit ago.... a statement that only even seems good on paper, despite its otherwise complete absurdity, when you only take into account complexity. Based on the lifestyle I and my classmates lead compared to our friends in dental school, cell, chemistry, bio, anatomy, and religious studies (random group
) graduate programs, I can safely infer that medical curriculum is more demanding, and again, this is a direct measure of difficulty, because difficulty, as a concept, has more involved than the amount of time you spent seating learning 1 concept.
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Research isn't easy either.... I was a research assistant at my university before starting medical school. But those stresses are different and largely irrelevant. i appreciate that it sucks to have an experiment not go right. i appreciate that you sometimes have to come in at the ass-crack of dawn to make sure you get things set up or get some time on the shared microscope since everyone and their mother signed up for it during decent times... I get that. These are not measures of "difficulty". Again, your logic places your neighborhood garbage man at the top of the totem pole here. Nobody is saying it is "pleasant". But not being "ideal" does not make it "difficult"...... only "unappealing" if only your argument had been "I have to do sh*ttier stuff than you" then maybe we would be able to agree.... at least until we get trained in DREs
and being a "successful physician scientist" is an awful lot like being a successful musician. There is a crap shoot element to it that you aren't acknowledging. I find it a little amusing that you think I need to get over myself just because I acknowledge that med curriculum isnt terribly complex but won't agree that having to take 1 seminar class while working in a lab where you will probably have to give up some evenings doesn't exactly take the same energy/effort input as cramming med factoids into your brain every day.....
although... I suppose this could all just be explained away if you are in some sort of remedial school what year are you again?
if only your argument had been "I have to do sh*ttier stuff than you" then maybe we would be able to agree.... at least until we get trained in DREs and being a "successful physician scientist" is an awful lot like being a successful musician. There is a crap shoot element to it that you aren't acknowledging. I find it a little amusing that you think I need to get over myself just because I acknowledge that med curriculum isnt terribly complex but won't agree that having to take 1 seminar class while working in a lab where you will probably have to give up some evenings doesn't exactly take the same energy/effort input as cramming med factoids into your brain every day.....
although... I suppose this could all just be explained away if you are in some sort of remedial school
what year are you again?
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And please try to remember, your point originally was that physics BS was harder than med school
How many Science papers get published that claim its harder to climb the Appalachians than the Alps because maybe the Rockies are taller?
In case its been awhile since your GRE..
Appalachianshysics BS::Rockies:_________
How many Science papers get published that claim its harder to climb the Appalachians than the Alps because maybe the Rockies are taller?
In case its been awhile since your GRE..
Appalachians
hysics BS::Rockies:_________I wonder this all the time myself. But only time will tell.
Medicine is a huge commitment but the outcome is great of you stick to it.
There's a quote that goes something like "I'm spending 8 years of my life doing what most people don't so I can end up doing what most people can't." That just about sums it all up.
I think if you stay committed you'll be fine. Which is easier said than done. (at least in my case lol)
Medicine is a huge commitment but the outcome is great of you stick to it.
There's a quote that goes something like "I'm spending 8 years of my life doing what most people don't so I can end up doing what most people can't." That just about sums it all up.
I think if you stay committed you'll be fine. Which is easier said than done. (at least in my case lol)
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Astronaut training program
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I don't know about that. According to several sources, the general rule of thumb for actuarial exams is 100 hours of study per hour of exam. Real-life averages are anywhere from 30 to 100 hours per hour of exam.
I read the textbook Physical Chemistry by Berry, Rice and Ross (I still have it). It's a pretty dense book on physical chemistry, almost as heavy as Devlin's medical biochemistry. Reading medical biochemistry was usually rapid. Reading Berry, Rice and Ross, on the other hand, required more focus, thought, and solving equations and wrapping my head around difficult concepts. When I think of my experience, I can't imagine how the medical school curriculum is the hardest thing there is. I simply don't (and cannot) buy it.
And what's a remedial school? I am actually pursuing an MD at a US allopathic medical school. I completed a PhD in biophysics (from a top two US medical school, figure it out) prior to medical school. I applied to medical school with a 34 and 3.8+. I took several courses with the medical students as well during grad school and these courses weren't all that difficult (except for histology).
Funnily, many of classmates (not all, thank God!) have your view that medical school is the hardest thing in the world and doctors are very awesome human beings. You seem to fall into the camp.
If you think medical school is hard, wait till you get to residency, Some of my medical school friends (from grad school) are in residency now and they wish they could go back to medical school.
I am wasting my time on this discussion as your mind is pretty set. Good luck
And what's a remedial school? I am actually pursuing an MD at a US allopathic medical school. I completed a PhD in biophysics (from a top two US medical school, figure it out) prior to medical school. I applied to medical school with a 34 and 3.8+. I took several courses with the medical students as well during grad school and these courses weren't all that difficult (except for histology).
Funnily, many of classmates (not all, thank God!) have your view that medical school is the hardest thing in the world and doctors are very awesome human beings. You seem to fall into the camp.
If you think medical school is hard, wait till you get to residency, Some of my medical school friends (from grad school) are in residency now and they wish they could go back to medical school.
I am wasting my time on this discussion as your mind is pretty set. Good luck
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I read the textbook Physical Chemistry by Berry, Rice and Ross (I still have it). It's a pretty dense book on physical chemistry, almost as heavy as Devlin's medical biochemistry. Reading medical biochemistry was usually rapid. Reading Berry, Rice and Ross, on the other hand, required more focus, thought, and solving equations and wrapping my head around difficult concepts. When I think of my experience, I can't imagine how the medical school curriculum is the hardest thing there is. I simply don't (and cannot) buy it.
And what's a remedial school? I am actually pursuing an MD at a US allopathic medical school. I completed a PhD in biophysics (from a top two US medical school, figure it out) prior to medical school. I applied to medical school with a 34 and 3.8+. I took several courses with the medical students as well during grad school and these courses weren't all that difficult (except for histology).
Funnily, many of classmates (not all, thank God!) have your view that medical school is the hardest thing in the world and doctors are very awesome human beings. You seem to fall into the camp.
If you think medical school is hard, wait till you get to residency, Some of my medical school friends (from grad school) are in residency now and they wish they could go back to medical school.
I am wasting my time on this discussion as your mind is pretty set. Good luck
Good for you Nuel. Fact is "most" people won't complete a PhD in biophysics prior to medical school.. or wait, they won't do a PhD at all.. whats the point anyway? Medical school is a **** ton of work, and if the content was easy to learn/retain, then there wouldn't be something called the USMLE. You may think medical school and all of its memorizing is easy but most people don't feel the same way.
