Applied to Vet School. Got In. Didn't Go. Med School Now?! Help, Please.

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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forks4spoons said:
Nor was I. Hardship is a bitch.
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But it's cool. Best of luck to both of you.
 
The comments regarding better patients.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but every time I see comment like that, I feel like people are going in with rose-colored glasses.

The vast, vast majority of your interaction is with the client, not the patient. And clients are just as bad, if not worse, than human patients in terms of demands. Its like being a pediatrician, except these kids bite and claw and the parents are unwilling to spend $ to treat their sick bitey child. They're essentially equivalent in terms of headaches. Plus we have a whole additional deck stacked against us that physicians don't have to deal with - finances. Money is king. In human medicine, family will rarely trash your reputation and call you a heartless, evil person who refused to treat their sick son or daughter or killed (euthanized) their son or daughter over money. I'm sure it happens occasionally and under special circumstances, but in vet med that's pretty much an every week thing. Or how about compliance? Sure, human patients are noncompliant all the time, but most of the time they are just hurting themselves. When veterinary clients are noncompliant, it hurts an innocent being. That's a lot harder to deal with in terms of client interaction IMO.

There are a million other things, but just a couple examples.
 
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forks4spoons said:
Have you worked in human healthcare? People are evil.
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But owners are, too. Yes your patients may be better, but they aren’t your client—the owner is. And they can be downright awful.

I know people who switched from human healthcare to vetmed, and vice versa. Some are happier, some say it’s the same. But it’s not going to be automically better because your patients are now fuzzy (or scaly, etc).
 
Also going to point out that some animals do suck as much as people. I've grown to the point where I don't trust animals, whether its the insane raccoon in the wildlife clinic or a dog in the GP service. There are certainly a lot of warning signs that people can read; but animals aren't necessarily all that great in a vet med environment.
 
Caiter92 said:
But owners are, too. Yes your patients may be better, but they aren’t your client—the owner is. And they can be downright awful.

I know people who switched from human healthcare to vetmed, and vice versa. Some are happier, some say it’s the same. But it’s not going to be automically better because your patients are now fuzzy (or scaly, etc).
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Exactly.

Not to mention these fuzzy patients can and do seriously injure you and your staff.
 
batsenecal said:
Also going to point out that some animals do suck as much as people. I've grown to the point where I don't trust animals, whether its the insane raccoon in the wildlife clinic or a dog in the GP service. There are certainly a lot of warning signs that people can read; but animals aren't necessarily all that great in a vet med environment.
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Word. An overweight, prediabetic smoker may drive you nuts with his refusal to follow treatment plans, but at least he won't leap off the table and put 12 stitches in your face with his teeth, or kick your skull in when you try to look at his feet.
 
batsenecal said:
Also going to point out that some animals do suck as much as people. I've grown to the point where I don't trust animals, whether its the insane raccoon in the wildlife clinic or a dog in the GP service. There are certainly a lot of warning signs that people can read; but animals aren't necessarily all that great in a vet med environment.
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Tangent, but I kind of feel like this like of thinking is a bit problematic. Aggression is fear or anxiety based. I feel like remembering your patient isn’t giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time is important. They’re not trying to make your life harder, they’re terrified. Also, drugs are your best friend 😛
 
Caiter92 said:
Tangent, but I kind of feel like this like of thinking is a bit problematic. Aggression is fear or anxiety based. I feel like remembering your patient isn’t giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time is important. They’re not trying to make your life harder, they’re terrified. Also, drugs are your best friend 😛
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I will agree with you that a lot of aggression is due to that (and people do need to remember that) .....but I do think there are absolutely some animals who are just dominant, aggressive dinguses.

Now, this may be due to a combination of things - poor breeding and poor training being major contributors - but it's not always out of fear and anxiety. These are the ones I fear the most. The reactive or fearful animals you can work with. The nutso ones.....not so much.
 
But animals are predictably unpredictable, if that makes sense. You take a feral, fearful dog and it’s easier to anticipate aggression. Not that you can anticipate all adverse events, but awareness is half the battle. Tranquilizers are the other half. 😉 I’m also speaking from experience. I’m also not going into this blindly. I’ve been around the world and made it back to where my home, sweet home, is.

Clients are awful, agreed, but that’s why my interests lie in shelter medicine and hospice/palliative care.
 
Caiter92 said:
Tangent, but I kind of feel like this like of thinking is a bit problematic. Aggression is fear or anxiety based. I feel like remembering your patient isn’t giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time is important. They’re not trying to make your life harder, they’re terrified. Also, drugs are your best friend 😛
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Oh, I don't disagree! I don't take it to the extreme of refusing to interact with the animal or anything like that, and maintain a calm demeanor with them. I just mean that I don't let my guard down with any of them. lol.

The sketchy clinic I worked in didn't use chemical restraint at all, so that may be where my wariness comes in.
 
batsenecal said:
Oh, I don't disagree! I don't take it to the extreme of refusing to interact with the animal or anything like that, and maintain a calm demeanor with them. I just mean that I don't let my guard down with any of them. lol.

The sketchy clinic I worked in didn't use chemical restraint at all, so that may be where my wariness comes in.
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I think wariness is good! Just some people get pissed at the animal and that’s not fair 🙂

I’m probably try to be more aware of it cause it’s a huge problem with Alzheimer’s care with care givers being impatient with “bad” behavior, when it’s not the Alzheimer’s patients fault they’re like that. It’s the same with animals 🙂
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
I will agree with you that a lot of aggression is due to that (and people do need to remember that) .....but I do think there are absolutely some animals who are just dominant, aggressive dinguses.

Now, this may be due to a combination of things - poor breeding and poor training being major contributors - but it's not always out of fear and anxiety. These are the ones I fear the most. The reactive or fearful animals you can work with. The nutso ones.....not so much.
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We can agree to disagree, cause poor training and socialization can also lead to anxiety and fear in those situations 🙂 either way, it’s not the animals fault they’re like that, and there are things we can do to make it easier on them and us 🙂
 
batsenecal said:
Oh, I don't disagree! I don't take it to the extreme of refusing to interact with the animal or anything like that, and maintain a calm demeanor with them. I just mean that I don't let my guard down with any of them. lol.

The sketchy clinic I worked in didn't use chemical restraint at all, so that may be where my wariness comes in.
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I don't think that's too extreme. I think its perfectly reasonable for a vet to refuse to see an aggressive dog if they felt unsafe (especially if the owner refuses to muzzle or use chemical restraint). You are under no obligation to put yourself in a dangerous situation.
 
Caiter92 said:
We can agree to disagree, cause poor training and socialization can also lead to anxiety and fear in those situations 🙂 either way, it’s not the animals fault they’re like that, and there are things we can do to make it easier on them and us 🙂
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I whole heartedly believe that some animals aren't born with a properly wired brain. There are animals that are aggressive for the sake of being aggressive. Think similar to a sociopath. I've dealt with a German Shepherd like this and euthanized a terrier that was like this. Horrible, awful animals. Will bite anyone, anything, owners can't control them even with proper training/meds they are huge liabilities and out of control.

I used to think like you, it is all based from fear or anxiety, I no longer think that. I think vast majority are fear/anxiety but I'm seeing a huge increase in just plain unhinged, aggressive dogs.

I needed a rabies pole and syringe pole to sedate the above shepherd, he needed 10x the normal sedation. Owner is regularly afraid of him. He goes from whining/friendly to taking face off without warning. He was like treating a wild wolf or big cat rather than a domestic dog.
 
My personal opinion on human v animal medicine is that I’m tired of caring for people that won’t take care of themselves. I know in vet med there’s going to be non compliant clients, but it’s the animal, who is innocent in the non compliance, that I’m taking care of. I really want to make a difference in this world and I’m interested in high volume spay/neuter and I feel I can be more beneficial to society with that than human nursing.

Plus animals are cuter. And I want to do small animals so their poop is usually smaller too. And I can still wear scrubs to work. Legitimate reasons to go into vet med? I think so.
 
J.Bed said:
My personal opinion on human v animal medicine is that I’m tired of caring for people that won’t take care of themselves. I know in vet med there’s going to be non compliant clients, but it’s the animal, who is innocent in the non compliance, that I’m taking care of. I really want to make a difference in this world and I’m interested in high volume spay/neuter and I feel I can be more beneficial to society with that than human nursing.

Plus animals are cuter. And I want to do small animals so their poop is usually smaller too. And I can still wear scrubs to work. Legitimate reasons to go into vet med? I think so.
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I get what you're saying.....but in reality, you aren't really taking care of them. The owner is. You are marketing your medicine to the owner of the animal, not taking care of the animal itself (with the exception of whatever treatment you yourself perform for the animal in your clinic that day/week). The day-to-day care of this living being is not something you have little control over unless you can educate and convince the often unwilling owner. It's a lot like sales, honestly.

If you're tired of people who won't take care of themselves, you're going to be exhausted by of all of the people who won't take care of their animals.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
I get what you're saying.....but in reality, you aren't really taking care of them. The owner is. You are marketing your medicine to the owner of the animal, not taking care of the animal itself (with the exception of whatever treatment you yourself perform for the animal in your clinic that day/week). The day-to-day care of this living being is not something you have little control over unless you can educate and convince the often unwilling owner. It's a lot like sales, honestly.

If you're tired of people who won't take care of themselves, you're going to be exhausted by of all of the people who won't take care of their animals.
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So that’s a good point. I guess what I’m saying is that I’ll be feebly attempting to do right even if the owners go home and don’t follow direction.
 
And cats poop in a box. Horses poop EVERYWHERE.
 
J.Bed said:
So that’s a good point. I guess what I’m saying is that I’ll be feebly attempting to do right even if the owners go home and don’t follow direction.
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That's kinda what I was getting at - it's really not THAT much different from the frustrations you get in human medicine. Not trying to dissuade you or anything, just presenting a different point of view. It's easy to think it will be "different" in different realms of medicine with different types of patients....but it's really same old, same old.
 
Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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There are occasionally kittens? Medicine is fun when an owner actually lets you do the stuffs. Did I mention kittens?
 
Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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I'd say it's more realism and cautioning than negativity and dissuading, but YMMV. Admittedly, it's quite hard to put the financial aspect aside. Saying "Finances aside, how do you like being a vet" is like saying "The fact that you get shot at and might die aside, how do you like being in the military?" You can't really separate such a central detrimental issue from the job when it permeates every aspect of it, and it therefore inevitably ends up being part of the discussion (and rightly so).

I of course enjoy the diagnostic and problem-solving aspect of it, not that such things are unique to vet med....but I suppose the thing I "love" about it is the species variation. That is ultimately what pushed me towards vet and away from human med - I find all those little idiosyncracies and differences in pathophysiology fascinating.
 
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I think it's very rare for anyone around here to actually try to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Maybe @DVMDream because she likes to crush hopes and dreams (which makes her name a little ironic) 😉 If you take the cautions about the realities of the job as "negativity," you're missing the point. It is a shame for anyone to go into the profession with rose colored glasses on, and unfortunately I think many people do.
 
The only active dissuading I have seen is when people come on and say they are trying to decide between vet med and human med, and most people say that if you would be happy doing something other than vet med (especially something lucrative) to definitely do that instead. In that case I think it's rational advice, though. Even in those cases we still advise to get experience in both fields and see what they like better.
 
Med school graduates graduate with a lot of debt as well, and even though they most likely will make more money in the long run, during the internship and residency phase you're getting paid next to nothing and that could be for years. At least once you graduate from vet school you can immediately start making a decent salary usually (unless you specialize). Also, malpractice insurance is EXTREMELY pricey when you're a MD, so even though you're getting paid a lot, a lot of it is going to insurance. That's not really something people think about before becoming a doctor. This is a conversation I recently had with one of my professors which is why I bring it up.
 
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futurevet_11 said:
At least once you graduate from vet school you can immediately start making a decent salary usuall
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https://www.boardvitals.com/blog/2017-resident-salary/

According to this, MD residency salaries are marginally lower than vet med starting salaries with significant pay increase within 10 years of graduation. The average DVM salary 10 years out is 80k.

Combined with the similar debt, there literally is no economic benefit of being a veterinarian over a human doctor.
 
batsenecal said:
Combined with the similar debt, there literally is no economic benefit of being a veterinarian over a human doctor.
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Yep. That's a strange argument this professor made.

A vet who begins working at 25 years old making 75k and 3% income increase a year will make a little over 5.5 million in lifetime earnings by age 65.

A physician who takes an extra, say 7 years of internship, residency, fellowship and begins work at 32 making 250k makes almost 14 million by age 65. And that calculation is assuming zero income for those seven years (and we already mentioned that residents make upwards of 50k during their training).

Even with the extra training years - where you aren't making "next to nothing", you're actually making the average household income in the US - it's still nowhere near comparable.
 
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Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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:hello:

I like going to work 99% of the time. I see interesting and boring cases, fix things and kill things, and while there's the occasional PITA client I am pretty good at not taking it personally. There's PUPPIES! and birds and snakes and ferrets. I actually *do* mentally have an easier time with an owner not doing the **** they're supposed to for their pets vs. someone not taking care of their own health. I also find it easier to be money-limited in medicine than to have all the dollars in the world and still lose a patient... but I'm aware I'm a bit odd there.

BUT (big BUT!) - I graduated with half the average debt that I'm going to pay off within 10 years. I'm not chained to this and that is really important to my mental health. I'm also SUPER type B compared to most vet students and good at not stressing the **** out over how I could have done things better, or what is going to walk in the door next, or yada yada.
batsenecal said:
Say it louder for the people in the back.
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I make well more than BOTH my parents combined did while raising me. I remind myself of that a lot.
 
Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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I do! Though I'm in a residency program in a non-traditional specialty so some aspects of my day-to-day don't really apply to the majority of vets out there. But, as a resident I actually make more than I have in any other job I've worked (though its less than the average vet salary, my specialty tends to make more than the typical resident salary - closer apparently to what human doctor residents make). Thanks to income based repayment and hopefully public service loan forgiveness I will only have an exorbitant amount of debt hanging over my head for the next 9ish years and luckily the hubs has a well-paying job in a desirable field so I don't have the huge financial worries I would have if I were A) Single and B) Trying to actually pay off my loans in a traditional route.

I also typically enjoy my job. Species variety, various clinical and surgical things to do, no clients to argue about money with (just investigators with different arguments), etc. My hours are pretty much 8-5 with some after-hours studying thrown in (but, residency, so really not bad overall).

I'm also like @Trilt with the more laid-back Type B personality so I don't really let things stress me out too much.
 
@kcoughli I just noticed the “(maternity leave)” in your signature thing. How is pregnancy in residency? Manageable? Curious to know what you’re doing about childcare once you return to work?
 
Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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Yes, I like my job. I enjoy the variety of cases, I really enjoy surgery, I enjoy problem solving, I feel like many times I do make a difference and help both people and animals. A big part of my career satisfaction is because I've moved to a practice that has better quality medicine, experienced/well-trained staff, good compensation and decent scheduling which makes it more bearable to deal with the many negatives of the profession. Also, like Trilt and kcough mentioned, I'm very much a Type B person and it's to my benefit. I see and work alongside Type A people that are very unhappy as general practitioners.

That all being said, my husband supports us just about 100% financially right now while I pay off my loans quickly. It's been very manageable (even finishing school with $250k in debt) because he makes good money. If I were single I don't think it would be worth it. There isn't enough love of my job that would make it bearable to be a penniless peasant for a decade while I paid off my loans. I know you want to separate out the financial part of things, but it's really a huge part of this profession. I don't know that there's any career that's worth all that time living paycheck to paycheck but unfortunately many people think that their love of animals and saving lives and all that romanticized jazz will carry them through the tough times. That's what we're here trying to dissuade - the idea that it really isn't so bad, that if you love vet med enough it will gloss over the hardships.
 
Kittymay125 said:
Finances aside, does anyone actually like vet med? I am in the application process now but only ever see negativity on this site and people trying to dissuade others from pursuing vet med. Can someone speak to the positive aspects of the job?
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I actually do enjoy my actual job of being a veterinarian. Clients don't stress me out. I like being an actor for a different skit in every exam room trying to essentially be likeable to each client to improve compliance every half an hour while being hugely judgemental inside. There are a lot of clients and patients I genuinely like. But the rest of them are fine too. Even the pain in the ass idiots amuse me. The belligerent ones are few and far in between, and at this point, they really don't bother me. I'm liberal with oral and injectable sedation for mean animals, and will refuse to see a mean dog if the owner won't get with the program. Mean cats are my specialty so I don't care how bad they are. I won't see exotics other than just for a non-witnessed mercy euthanasia, and I plan to keep it that way. It stresses me out to not be good/knowledgeable in my trade, I know I'm a kick-ass dog/cat doctor, and don't want to venture out into territory of non-excellence which is where I would be with exotics.

I love the actual interesting medical and surgical cases.

The special snow flake young millennial lay staff with the work ethic of a sloth and ego of Trump, who crumble and cry the minute they're told they did something wrong. I ****ing hate working with them, and unfortunately there are a few of them in every clinic. Good thing is that I have enough staff that I love, that it works out. Most vet hospitals have horrible or incapable bosses, and that's hard to deal with. But given that I don't ever intend on owning my own practice, it's something I just need to come to terms with. I've just learned to be emotionally dead inside, and take an apathetic approach to internal inefficiencies and conflict.

So I like what I do. I like being a vet. I don't particularly like my job, but it's fine overall. That being said, it's easy for me to say when I'm not financially stressed. I could lose my job tomorrow and I'd be okay. I could drop to part time, and I would be okay. I also have a handful of clinics nearby who would love to hire me if they had the chance. I get paid well enough and my husband gets paid well enough that we are fairly well off. I also paid off my student loans (~$150k) in a little over 4 years. I could up and leave the profession tomorrow if I wanted, and I'd be okay. I think that has a lot to do with my satisfaction level. If I felt trapped in my current job with a significant amount of student loans and nowhere to go, I'd probably be super depressed right now. It's easy to be apathetic with the negatives of your situation when you have freedom. It weighs on you heavily if you are trapped.
 
I came out of Human medicine. If you are thinking of human medicine for the money RUN!!!!!!! I left medical school in my third year. I HATED CLINICALS. putting my finger up some fat dudes ass, looking at gross cracked nasty feet with nails that look like talons, nasty boils, infections between layers of overweight peoples skin. I've been vomited on, coughed on in my face with spit DAILY... and diarrhea, yes I've had it all over me. Humans are gross.... and non compliance. omg, non compliance and needy, chronically ill patients made me want to literally SCREAM. medicine is a calling and the type of medicine you get to practice depends on that calling. I transferred to animal medicine and I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE IT! sticking my finger up some dogs butt doesn't bother me a bit. getting bit doesn't even bother me. because I LOVE what I do. stop surrounding yourself with nay sayers. I surrounded myself with veterinarians that had practices that made well over 7 figures. I know farm vets that make 100k plus.. be innovative, don't work for someone else. those people will not make great money. Don't build someone else's dream. build your own. There comes a time to **** or get off the pot. Either do it or do something else. bottom line is you HAVE to do something else. Vet techs don't make a living wage. It is unfortunate as they are highly trained. at least the ones I work with are. I think sometimes we get stuck in a rut and are so afraid to make a bad decision we don't make a decision at all. WHICH IS MAKING A DECISION. Human medicine is hard, messy and the politics will EAT YOU ALIVE if you are not a strong person. I am a very strong person and I was MISERABLE. And they are in debt too. make no mistake they are easily 400k in debt. Surround yourself with successful people. not those that are miserable. ANY profession is what you make of it. as far as human medicine. Unless you work AT LEAST two years as a medical assistant forget PA school. Most applicants have been in human medicine 3-5 years. PAID positions. and if you are considering human medical school, start studying for the MCAT. it takes a good 9 months. If and I say IF you can kick ass on the MCAT then move forward. the MCAT is a hard ass test my friend. Start there. then keep in mind you have the USME 1, 2 and 3 and you can get kicked out if you fail any one of those tests. And they don't tell you about those that fail out. people fail out all the time. yes, If you fail, you can take the usmle step again, but I don't know anyone who Ever failed any of the USME that didn't get stuck in some crappy ass residency program and I know of some who didn't even place at all!. scores make or break you in human medicine. and the MCAT is like a kindergarten test compared to those USMLE tests. so, if you really think you want to do human medicine, start there. I studied for 9 months 8 hours a day 5 days a week, and my science gpa going in was a 3.89. And that test was hard. If you can get a good competitive score on the MCAT, and you are not burnt out, then move forward with medical school. bottom line is people can say all they want to. It doesn't matter what we think. YOU have to get up every morning and go to work. Make it worthwhile. and do it for the right reasons. I went into medicine instead of animal medicine because the debt vs wage worried me as well. and speaking for myself it was a terrible reason to go into human medicine and it cost me more in the long run. Now I have an additional 2.5 years of medical school loans on top of any veterinary school loans. and to me, it was still worth leaving. just my two cents.
 
forks4spoons said:
It was lethal to me when I returned to my goals of being a veterinarian. I was in medical school for a year and a half before withdrawing (for several reasons, depression included). I applied to med school first because it didn't require taking biochem. (dumb, I know.)

Since, I've become an ICU RN and still have the desire/drive to be a veterinarian. Applying this cycle and with all of my new experiences/education, I think it's actually helped me. Guess I'll know in a few months.... 😍
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Biochem is a HUGE portion of the MCAT. You must have taken it before the mcat change???
 
I challenge you to find a program otherwise. P.A. programs were designed for military medical personnel coming out of the military with skills they could only use in the military. I am surrounded by PA friends and family. Trust me. You may have some EMT experience. I am not saying that EMT hours don't count, but those hours are still years worth and alone doubtful enough to get you in. IT IS HIGHLY COMPETITIVE!!! A 2 year program that earns you a good 100K wage does not take entry level or minimal requirements. And EMTs know how to transfer patients and give CPR if needed. they are not paramedics. CLINICAL hours is what PA programs want. I am surrounded by human medicine people. (Which is why I was encouraged to go into Human medicine). My family and friends are all MDs, DO's ICU/emergency nurses and PA's. So In my experience, your are incorrect SkiOtter.
 
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SkiOtter said:
Not entirely true. You can work as an EMT too. 24 hour shifts add up real fast. You don’t need YEARS of paid work to get accepted.
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MyTime2Fly! said:
My family and friends are all MDs, DO's ICU/emergency nurses and PA's. So In my experience, your are incorrect SkiOtter.
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And now we play our favorite game, Which Anecdote Wins??? :corny:
 
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