Are There Too Many Pharmacists? What do you think??

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Kevin.Mero, May 12, 2018.

  1. Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Aconite likes this.
  2. BigBoss

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    459
    If you keep up with this forum or work in pharmacy, then it's pretty obvious the answer is yes.
     
    #2 BigBoss, May 12, 2018
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  3. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    According to the article and the comments within from Lucinda Maine, CEO of the AACP, it is debatable. Jobs vs available Pharmacists are on balance now but IMO that's only bc we are still filling the void of the 157K predicted Pharmacist shortfall back in the year 2000. Bottom line, the US creates approx. 9900 Pharmacist jobs annually yet we graduate 15K+ new grad PharmD's. Once that 157K shortfall is filled, which will be in 2020, then things really flip and all bets are off!!
     
  4. UGAZ

    UGAZ SDN Gold Donor
    Gold Donor Verified Account 2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    246
    It has been saturated since 2010
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Take 5 mins tho and read the article
     
    CetiAlphaFive likes this.
  6. CaNvWa farm

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    9900 jobs annually? that's not bad at all
    I thought 9000 jobs over 10 years, meaning 900 jobs per year
     
    Kevin.Mero likes this.
  7. BigBoss

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    459
    The actual number, according to the BLS is 17,400 new jobs from 2016-2026 (around 6% growth). Now, if 15,000+ pharmacists are graduating per year, then you can see how the supply of pharmacists vastly exceeds the demand.
     
  8. stoichiometrist

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    1,561
    Is water wet?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. zelman

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,242
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Kevin.Mero and CaNvWa farm like this.
  10. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 imagine sisyphus happy
    Pharmacist 15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    13,572
    Likes Received:
    3,328
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    I actually disagree with the rabble.

    I don't think there are too many pharmacists. I think too many pharmacists want to work in specific places. You could get a job in rural BFE tomorrow.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. Cleaveland

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    55
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Yeah, as a new grad I would agree it's tough to get places where you'd like to be. I got lucky though to be in a semi-decent area in Florida though. Part-time for now, though, but I'll take it. Having work experience and good relations with the supervisor did help me get that area. Connections seem to be key for where you'd like to be.
     
    Kevin.Mero likes this.
  12. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Just to be clear, that 900 jobs created per year are just the new jobs. That doesn't take into consideration events like retirement, death, pharmacists who take a career break, etc. That's where the 9900 number comes in. The US can withstand 15K+ new grad PharmD's for a period of time as we're still officially in a shortage situation. But come 2020 or the very early part of that decade is when the job market is going to radically change as that is the time any shortage of pharmacists that was predicted back in the year 2000 will be met.
     
  13. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Or will exceed demand sometime after 2020. According to the government we're still in a shortage situation but filling quickly!!
     
  14. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Some people do feel we have already reached the saturation point, and we may have. I just don't know as we're still seeing jobs for Pharmacists. What I think may be happening is many new grads are spending too much time trying to find something close to home or where they want to be and are not looking far enuf away. The longer they wait the more doors will close to them. Besides, employers have gotten wise to people that don't have strong ties to their geo area. They have been burned too many times by Pharmacists who take a job most anywhere, then as soon as something opens up closer to where they really want to be they bolt!
    IMO, the worst part of the US for jobs is the northeast, followed by the southeast. The midwest is +/- on balance depending upon where you are looking. The majority of the jobs are in the west, however that gap is closing due to the financial problems of CA and the continued opening of new schools of pharmacy. Right now I think there re 12 operating schools of pharmacy in CA. Rumor has it there are still 5 more in various stages of opening. That is when the scales will tip and the jobs will evaporate!!
     
    CaNvWa farm likes this.
  15. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    I don't totally disagree with you but the counter to your statement IMO is ... What I think may be happening is many new grads are spending too much time trying to find something close to home or where they want to be and are not looking far enuf away. The longer they wait the more doors will close to them. Besides, employers have gotten wise to people that don't have strong ties to their geo area. They have been burned too many times by Pharmacists who take a job most anywhere, then as soon as something opens up closer to where they really want to be they bolt!
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    I couldn't agree with you more! But what a reversal of fortune when as little as 10 years ago a new grad PharmD was getting signing bonuses of up to $50K, leases on BMW's and MB's, full-service pack-and-load moves costing $20K, house-hunting trips, assistance in placing a spouse, annual retention bonuses, etc., etc., etc.
     
    Cleaveland likes this.
  17. CaNvWa farm

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    Looks like we, class of 2020, shouldn't worry too much if we're willing to move to rural areas along the west coast then!?
    We just have to learn how to look for jobs in those areas.
     
    Kevin.Mero likes this.
  18. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    260
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    In what other profession which requires a license, extensive training is it normal to search the country for a job?

    It has been saturated. The real question is when does it turn around?
     
    Kevin.Mero likes this.
  19. smercer

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    146
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    No one is saying there are absolutely no jobs. What is being said is that the jobs that are open are often in non-desirable locals or require excess experience/specialty training. This is compounded by the fact that we are over producing pharmacists already and somehow no one with authority cares, as we have numerous schools in line to open.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    drrphbw, CaNvWa farm and Kevin.Mero like this.
  20. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    I wouldn't necessarily worry but just keep your eyes open and watch for the changes. I've been in the pharmacy employment biz for 30+ years. Anything I find that I feel is newsworthy I'll post here. You will definitely increase your odds of getting the job you want if you can land a residency. You'll be a lot more employable!!
     
    CaNvWa farm likes this.
  21. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    The first job that comes to mind is that of an attorney, pharmacy seems to have taken a page right out of their playbook. Suicides could be down as I'm not hearing much. There was a time recently where the #1 suicide rate was attorney's but #2 were Pharmacists!

    When does it turn around? Great question! IMO, so much depends upon what happens with student enrollment going forward. Enrollment is dropping but if enrollment plummets then we could be experiencing another dearth of pharmacists in 5+ years. However no one really knows the affect of new technology or what is coming along to disrupt like Amazon. To me the thing to watch, as we're seeing it unfold now, is how are the Techs going to impact the market? That's going to be the game changer!!
     
  22. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Agreed! We are seeing jobs, just not the number we were 10 years ago. The biggest change I feel we're seeing is that as the shortage is filling, given there are on average 9900 total available US jobs available annually. With 5-6K Residents, and rising, coming on the market annually, those 9900 jobs are aiming to attract one of them first. Assuming 5-6K of the current new grad PharmD's go on to residencies, that's going to leave approx. 10K new grad PharmD's (in 2017) that remain vying for the available 4K-5K jobs. With each passing year there will be more residents, more new grad PharmD's but unless there is a way to increase the # of total new jobs created, the odds of finding a job get progressively worse. I'm a gambler but those are not good odds!!
     
    Modest_anteater likes this.
  23. DrVader

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    338
    The individual in the article has a financial interest in playing down the saturation. Whereas individuals on this board do not.
     
    CaNvWa farm and Kevin.Mero like this.
  24. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    Wholeheartedly agree! This is just one of the org's that back in 2001/2002 recommended the existing 85 schools "rapidly expand" and to open 2 or 3 new schools ... then the existing 85 "rapidly" expanded and we have 57 new schools. There could still be another 10+ new schools that haven't even shown themselves yet!!
     
    Modest_anteater likes this.
  25. Mambo#5

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    116
    That's right. People forget, that when you read information, you have to read critically and ask yourself:
    1. Who wrote this?
    2. What's their position/interests?
    3. Why would they write this?
    3. How would they benefit from writing this?
     
    drrphbw, Kevin.Mero and BigBoss like this.
  26. OP
    OP
    Kevin.Mero

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    75
    I can't speak for the author but at least one of the people quoted is Lucinda Maine, CEO of the AACP. That group oversees all of the colleges and schools of pharmacy in the US and may oversee the ones abroad. The founder of the PDI went on to become the Dean of at least one new school of pharmacy. It's definitely in their best interest to put a good spin on there being pharmacist jobs, their livelihood depends upon that! Even though the AACP and ACPE recommended back in 2001/2002 to open 2 or 3 new pharmacy schools, they have the law on their side so can/will approve anyone that wants to open a new school. Stopping any new school from opening would be a restraint of trade.
     
  27. UGAZ

    UGAZ SDN Gold Donor
    Gold Donor Verified Account 2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    246
    To the original question, I would say "YES"

    The main reason is school expansion. It's getting ridiculous to see how many schools have popped up in short period of time. I remember I started pharmacy school in 2003 and in California , we only had 5schools : UCSF, USC, Loma Linda, Western, and UC San Diego (new program), and UOP. Fast forward, now in 2018 (15 years later), we almost triple to 13 schools in California alone. Some of the new schools are purely coming from profit making purposes (Chapman university, West Coast university). The profit is actually insane if you do a simple math. For instance, a school with 3 year program will have P1-P2-P3. Tuition for each student now average 50K/person...x100 student (class size) = 5 million/year for a P-1. Say that school has 3 classes (P1,2,3). Tuition alone easily generates 5M x3 =15 millions revenue. Subtracting employee fees, professor salary, rents, etc....The school easily profit 50% of that portion...which is 7.5 million. Isn't it a cash cow model?

    Schools don't care whether a student has a job after graduation. This is a guarantee profit making. I don't know how to make connection to the board, or else, I would have opened a school myself. Seriously...

    I was the last to hire at my hospital for a fulltime clinical position and it's been nearly 12 years with no full time openings. We hired 2 per diems after...and each opening generated nearly 50 applications. Just to show how saturated it is at my area. It's getting worse, actually.
     
    Modest_anteater likes this.
  28. smercer

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    146
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    They simply need to impose stricter rules and penalties. Why not impose a fine and forced class size reduction for any school that does not obtain 85%+ pass rate on the NAPLEX/MPJE? Heck they would be able to hit 50-60% of schools with fines right there. Then they can use that extra money to actually spend more time reviewing schools and to ensure the ones open currently are at least producing quality pharmacists. Once they hit the crappy schools with enough fines and class reductions, they will just shut down as they will no longer be profitable.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    rxdawg21 and pianomo like this.
  29. SoylentGreen

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    56
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    I'm not so sure that BFE is still a guaranteed option. I live in a BFE district, and my boss says he has plenty of applicants. Even here they're getting picky.
     
    rxdawg21 and CaNvWa farm like this.
  30. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    530
    Meh those perks are okay. Want would be really good would be assistance in finding a future spouse.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  31. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    530
    I don't think our license is good in Egypt...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  32. CaNvWa farm

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    That's what I think too. Jobs in rural areas are drying out, I've heard.

    Haha
     
  33. APN-59 rph

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    53
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    That seems to be trending less and less true. I'm seeing new grads migrating out into the sticks. I have to wonder if all of this job growth will even happen. A big clinic around here has two techs running it's outliers with a video link to HQ where a bored Pharmacist works the TV...So, that is three places that used to have three pharmacists being run by one...The big chains are cutting hours and closing stores, when ten years ago they were building on every stray corner...More than a few ancients neglected to plan well for their ancient-ness and are hanging around into their 70's..AND..some new grads have a tendency to drive everyone in the system crazy..(see the OB/GYN v. uppers discussion)
     
  34. quickpic007

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2016
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    226
    Whats the plan man? I been thinking moving from BFE and going jobless to find a rich spouse LOL


    So ridiculous seeing these 70 yr olds around.
    In the early 2000s 40K sign ons were common! OT out the wazoo.
     
  35. DrVader

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    338
    One of our staff pharmacist is in his 70s, he doesn't even need the money. It is just doing it because he is bored.
     
  36. UGAZ

    UGAZ SDN Gold Donor
    Gold Donor Verified Account 2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    246
    This is probably the dumbest reason to go to work. When I am 70, If I don't need money, I rather go traveling or go volunteering. Why would you wanna spend your time at work just because you're bored? Work requires commitment and liability.
     
  37. gwarm01

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    2,961
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    I'm sure plenty of physician groups are salivating at the idea of paying a six figure salary for their very own pharmacist.
     
  38. CaNvWa farm

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    If I just want to work for retail only, should I try residency?
     
  39. stoichiometrist

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    1,561
    Residency would be a complete waste of time and lost earnings if you are strictly into retail.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    CaNvWa farm likes this.
  40. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    260
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    When I went to pharmacy school there was a community practice pharmacy residency. Mentioning it was the easiest way to get a laugh out of the class. The supermarket chain that sponsored it (Dominicks) is out of business now.
     
    CaNvWa farm likes this.
  41. GypsyHummus

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    2,496
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    You guys are making a median income of 124K/year after 4 years post college schooling, add in the fact some pharmacists do a residency at low pay and is counted into the median. Even with 200K in student loan debt, that doesnt seem like a bad gig, idk why you guys complain so much.

     
  42. stoichiometrist

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    1,561

    You also have professions like these that are in much demand compared to pharmacy and pay nearly as much as pharmacy (gross) without the $200k+ loans and 4 additional years of schooling. They also get treated far better and work in much better environments, many with catered gourmet meals, on-site gym and laundry, employee shuttles, etc. compared to the average pharmacist being on their feet all day dealing with rude customers and corporate metrics and are lucky to even get a bathroom break.

    Software Developers, Systems Software
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  43. CaNvWa farm

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    Community residency is what I plan to apply, too. One of P3 students at my school got this. The supermarket chain here is Smiths (Kroger).
     
  44. zelman

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,242
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Varies by complaint
     
  45. Momus

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    3,279
    Likes Received:
    1,625
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Metros are already saturated this yr. Next year, the boonies won't have jobs. We are "well staffed" according to my scheduler (i.e too many floaters on part time basis only and begging for more hours or land a store). Good luck for anyone getting fired/rage quit/ new grads trying to find a full time job in this market. You are going to need it. Be prepared to be unemployed or underemployed for 6 months+ to forever in this market.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    BidingMyTime likes this.
  46. GypsyHummus

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    2,496
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    Well, how much easier is it to get into software engineering easy job vs getting into a PharmD school? They are letting bio majors with 2.7s into pharmacy school, how competitive is computer science accreditation?

    Im sure software engineers making 100K+ are working 50-60 hr workweeks staring at computers. How many of these great jobs are available?

    How much longer until these software positions are saturated? there is a pharmacy on every corner, but is there a big firm willing to pay these six figure software salaries in places not located in metropolitan areas?

     
    BidingMyTime and CaNvWa farm like this.
  47. PharFromNormal

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    221
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    If there’s a public safety or quality problem that is feared as a result the state boards should step in. I’m not sure why they couldn’t step in and issue their own accreditation/licensing process for APPE locations or something if they haven’t already. Have completion of state board accredited/licensed rotations required for any new licensing going forward. If there’s a cap on rotation sites required for licensure that’s outside the hands of the acedemic complex you could effectively lock them down. IMO This would all need to hinge on the arguement of poorer quality pharmacist. In the eyes of everyone else, it’s tough to say that lower paid healthcare workers is a bad thing if quality and safety remain high. Healthcare worker salary is part of overall healthcare costs. If those are going down that helps the bigger picture goals.

    Docs got it right awhile back with their regulation tie in to residency and essentially the need for residency to make their degree of value. Instead of trying to force residency on pharmacy (with no regulatory tie) just throw it on an existing requirement.
     
    CaNvWa farm likes this.
  48. Mambo#5

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    116
    There’s not too many. They should open up 80 more schools. We still have a shortage. I’m getting tons of job offers with sign on bonuses. There’s tons of hours and we’re getting real overtime, great benefits and working conditions. There are even tons of jobs in the middle of nowhere and tons of real positions listed online. There’s no surplus. I say we quadruple class sizes and add 100 more schools.
     
  49. gwarm01

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,307
    Likes Received:
    2,961
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    May I ask why?
     
  50. Chriskahn

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    160
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Technically no. See internet for explanation
     

Share This Page