Are There Too Many Pharmacists? What do you think??

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Kevin.Mero, May 12, 2018.

  1. CaNvWa farm

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    There's no hiring in my area (Las Vegas) now according to P3s graduating this month. I will try to apply for a retail job somewhere else but also try community residency right here. I will probably prefer not to move... yet
     
  2. PharmDBro2017

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    Obviously the answer to this thread is yes.

    ~90% of my graduating class (last year) had jobs lined up after graduation or soon after, 5% or so went on to do residency.

    From what I’ve heard from the class of 2018, 5-10% have jobs lined up and 5% went on to do residency. I’m living in a state that is considered “not saturated” or almost saturated, last time I saw the literature on pharmacy job market.

    I work in hospital but job security is still on the back of my mind. It is a scary time to be in pharmacy. I feel awful for students that are about to enroll in pharmacy school.



    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  3. CaNvWa farm

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    Wow, just after one year and the change is from 90% to 10%. It's so hard to believe.
    Btw, about 20% of class of 2018 at my school went on to do residency.
     
    #53 CaNvWa farm, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  4. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt
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    Community Practice residencies are for people who aspired to move up the retail pharmacy chain (beyond pharmacy manager.) I wouldn't say they are worthless, but for the majority of pharmacists who have no desire to get into management, they would be.
     
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  5. PromethazineDM

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    At my hospital, there are 100s of resume sent in every year yet we hardly hire unless someone retired/deceased/etc. Friends who work in retail tell me they don't get 40 hours per week anymore. Working condition in retail kept getting worsen and no pay raise. I also hear other hospital are getting flex schedule based on census. YET more schools are opening in CA and CA residents go out of states with the hope of coming back to CA to practice. Nothing to worry folks. There isn't a saturation in pharmacy /s
     
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  6. texag13

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    I agree. I went to pick up a scrip for cipro today and got counseled by a P4 from a less than good school (I never tell pharmacists or students that I’m a pharmacist). I swear this girl counseled me on amoxicillin. We are at the point where the quality of graduates could be putting the public at risk. That’s not okay.
     
  7. MAP2010

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
     
  8. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine
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    I hear lawyers have it tough. And Optometrists. Apparently dental isn't what it used to be either.
     
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  9. sozetone

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  10. sozetone

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    2018 seems to be the point at which we are really "feeling" the effects. They are evident everywhere. Companies cutting jobs to part time, lower pay. Yeah, that does not help. Combined with over-saturation is a deadly combination. My DM says he has 30-50 applicants for every posted position. And, I'm in a very rural area. (which is why i came here for the 80hr manager gig) ...in the end I am witnessing salaries dropping to 50$ range/hr as well. So yeah, everyone should remember 2018 as the start of the downward spiral. It's really happening now....
     
  11. GypsyHummus

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    Medicine seems to be in need all the time, though they might have PAs and NPs breathing down their necks in a couple years.

    Podiatry is a good under the radar profession, for now. seems to have reached a market equilibrium as long as they don’t graduate any more people (500ish/year). The market looks like it’s aborbing at the rate of retirement/healthcare/diabetus expansion. Barley keeping up, but that could change with a new school opening up or class size expansion. I don’t think NPs and PAs are exactly rushing to do nail or foot procedures either, so they are safer from midlevel encroachment than MD/DO.

    Physical therapy seems to be in a good place too, from what I’ve read. They just don’t get paid much.

     
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  12. sozetone

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    Podiatry? I dont wanna deal with stinky feet all day! lol....
     
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  13. sozetone

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    Yeah that sounds about right. Exactly what is happening in retail now. positions cut to 32---->56 hr/2 weeks period and roughly 50/hr. you have to fill in the gaps for LOA and PTO when those pharmacists are out to get max hours.
     
  14. GypsyHummus

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    Which is why they haven’t been taken over by NP/PAs yet. Not glamorous at all, and why saturation hasn’t hit them. Do the jobs nobody else wants to do, and saturation usually isn’t a problem.

     
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  15. BC_89

    Moderator Lifetime Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 2+ Year Member

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    If opinionation is getting mixed with facts, then assume the worst: Saturation and over-supply. So now you prepare for it....Thus the question is more direct...——> What are you going to do?
     
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  16. Momus

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    Medicine (speciality) or bay area techies for 500k/yr. That's all I gotta say. Screw other health care professions.
     
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  17. GypsyHummus

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    Well yah, but you gotta be super smart and top of your class to get them medical specialties/surgery. The Specialties making 500K+ are Surgical specilties like ENT, Ortho, etc. A majority of medical students (especially at DO schools) end up in primary care making 200K/year, gross salary (so like what, 130-140K after taxes?). Which isnt bad, but tuition for DO schools is at a going rate of 300-400K as of now. Plus, most doctors I know work way more than 40 hours/week, more closer to 56-60. Tack on more if you are a surgeon.

    I know nothing about the tech world.

     
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  18. OP
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    Kevin.Mero

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    I have been on the pharmacy employment side of things for a long time, I have to agree with you that this is the slowest I've seen. The economy is very strong but pharmacy is sitting this robust wave out!
     
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  19. OP
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    Kevin.Mero

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    PT is very good but today you have to complete your Bachelor's degree then post-baccalaureate clinical doctorate that takes 3 years to complete
     
  20. sozetone

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    You wanna make 500K a year in medicine? you better get ready to be ON CALL 24/7 all your life.......your kids, wife....etc. all put on hold whenever the need arises. its a very disruptive lifestyle.
     
  21. OP
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    Kevin.Mero

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    I'm not even sure you could get to $500k anymore today, see the following

    The highest-paying job in healthcare pays over $200,000—here are the other 9 (Pharmacists #4)
    The highest-paying job in healthcare pays over $200,000—here are the other 9
     
  22. GypsyHummus

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    The only problem with the physicians and surgeons (and podiatrists) figure is that they include residency figures in the average.

    All the surgical specialties have the ability to gross 500K+,but like others mentioned, you are married to your work. Primary care is around the 200k mark, but taxes eat that up to 120-130k take home. Podiatry is around 130-150k for bread and butter private practice or hospital stuff, sometimes 250k+ if you are a busy surgeon.

    That’s why there was (and still is) a massive flood of bio/chem majors propagating Pharmacy. It is (was) the quickest and safest way to make six figures in a “prestigious” field. I know most pharmacists complain about income, but 120k/year (gross income) is a lot of money for someone only working 40-50 hours, especially right out of school.

     
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  23. PromethazineDM

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    120k/year with 240-300K student loan at 6.8% unsubsidized interest and 4 more years of schooling. Resident who take on 1-2 more years while the debt is still unsubsidized make pharmacy even less attractive.

    There are plenty of job that doesn't require 4 years of schooling and mountain debt of loan to make 6 figures like programming and accounting. My wife is in another field and make more than me - stock option, bonus, and higher salary.
     
  24. stoichiometrist

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    The majority of new grads probably aren’t even making $120k/year, more likely $80k with the recent cuts in pay and hours.
     
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  25. lord999

    Pharmacist Faculty Moderator Emeritus Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

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    Kevin, you've been around long enough to have known the PT heyday, and it's not now, that was the late 1990s where a Bachelor's and being in decent shape got you 20% more than pharmacists, but once they hit their ceiling around the mid-00s, they never gained the lost ground. We're following their career trajectory right now.

    And we're not saturated yet. Saturation is Boston/Philadelphia/Pittsburgh around 1982-1984 where we had interns PAYING preceptors out of their own pockets to get enough hours needed to sit for the Boards after graduation. We are nowhere near that level of desperation yet.
     
  26. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

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    5% to residency seems very low. it should be more like 15%
     
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  27. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

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    According to my math this is just the beginning. There is a serious lag time for new schools and their grads. I expect peak saturation in 2025 which a real unemployment rate of 15-25%. There is simply not enough demand to fill the supply. However this will not effect me as I am secretly willing to work for as low as 15$ an hour and I doubt it will get lower than that for pharmacists. However if it does my back up plan is to work at Walmart in SF where I can make 20$ stocking cans and listening to Joe Rogan Experience podcast on my Iphone and doing IBR. Always good to have a plan B guys.
     
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  28. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

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    less than 80 after taxes and student loan payments....
     
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  29. One pharmacist told me that she hasnt even touched her 200k loan after being done with pharmacy school for 2 years. Another one told me that she paid off her 164k loan in 4 years, maybe it depends on the pharmacist and their budget.
     
  30. rxdawg21

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    Interesting. I wonder if we run in the same circles or if that 164k in 4 years is common lol.
     
  31. PromethazineDM

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    I know it's less than 120K but I didn't know it's that bad. It make pharmacy even less attractive especially with more saturation, competition, and decrease pay.

    Yet when I warn some of them, all these new grad with googly eyes thinking they are more charming, better networking skills, and smarter will get a nice cushy job after graduation. Don't be hitting me up for hospital job after I have warned some of them (one did).


    $15/hr as outpatient pharmacist isn't worth it. I'm sure if you are smart enough, you can find a chiller job not dealing with difficult and entitle patients for $15/hr. I already found a side job making as much as pharmacist.That combined with passive income from stocks, housing etc, there is no need to do outpatient pharmacy for that low.

    You don't know how much of your physical and mental health you exchange for $15/hr as outpatient pharmacist. I know plenty of pharmacist with high blood pressure and the stress that aged them. One was very pretty pharmacist too.
     
    #81 PromethazineDM, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  32. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Is today your last day on Earth?

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    "I am secretly willing to work for as low as 15$ an hour and I doubt it will get lower than that for pharmacists. However if it does my back up plan is to work at Walmart in SF where I can make 20$ stocking cans and listening to Joe Rogan Experience podcast on my Iphone and doing IBR. Always good to have a plan B guys."

    I agree. There are tons of chill jobs for 15 USD an hour.
     
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  33. PromethazineDM

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    Lately I've been noticing alot of PGY1 trained pharmacist in CA unable to find a job in 3+ months. When they do, it's not permanent position but through a temp agency. I can't imagine the situation is any better once the flood gate of pharmacy school graduate their first graduating class.

    PGY1 isn't that special anymore.
     
  34. Momus

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    They go to retail... A lot of them do. A paycheck is better than no pay check.
     
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  35. stoichiometrist

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    Is it even possible for them to get hired into retail? I am under the impression that there are loads of non-residency trained new grads who are just as desperate and won’t try to jump ship when the first hospital opportunity opens up.
     
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  36. sozetone

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    I'm totally down with that plan too. I'm from SF, and will return to stock shelves with you. The loan company can have their 54.60/month towards my loan.....lol.
     
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  37. sozetone

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    How about we open a business, try our best and forget this pharmacy "thing" ever happened. i would love to put pharmacy in the rear view mirror forever. Unless i can "really' treat and help people every day, and feel valued, I may stay. Now i just feel like i am making corporate millions, and they are taking a dump on me.
     
  38. PromethazineDM

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    Alot of pharmacy are closing down or consolidating. I heard alot of staffers are getting 32 hours/week schedule. Most resident aren't going to go retail since it's "beneath" them to do so.

    Beside, if I'm a hiring manager, I wouldn't hire resident. They will go somewhere when they find a better job. Interns that have been working at certain stores know the in and out of daily operation.

    With saturation problem, I'm surprised so many pharmacists would want $4000 mortgage for 30 years even if it's dual income household.
     
    #88 PromethazineDM, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  39. Sine Cura

    Sine Cura 10 seconds or less
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    Retail hiring managers will put apps from failed residents (failed as in did not secure employment consistent with their training) in the circular file unless these people are willing to relocate to terrible areas that are notoriously difficult to staff, which the vast majority of them won't
     
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  40. sozetone

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    I 100% agree with you. i am watching this 32/hr or even 28/hr per week thing going on with the new grads, then they "flex" them up to cover PTO and sick days...etc. But their base salary guarantee is poor now. Pay rate dropped 10-15/hr as well...to compound the problem. The american dream of owning a home, kids, dog, yard, wife/husband...etc. is fading away. I see people every day lose their job and cannot find another. So they lose their home and life is all messed up. very unstable times right now.
     
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  41. sozetone

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    Did she drone on for 15 minutes about all sorts of nonsense ? I see this all the time, meanwhile MY QUE is over flowing and the workflow comes to a grinding halt! you have to learn which corners to cut and have experience doing this for some time to be proficient at retail pharmacy. These new graduates have no idea how to operate and keep the wheels moving, metrics green and balance everything out. They are too busy trying to be doctors.
     
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  42. PromethazineDM

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    Hospital are flexing the pharmacist schedule and doing remote entry. I also see them using registry more and more to avoid paying benefits. Retail pharmacist are also feeling the squeeze with reduce hours, tech hours, wage freeze, off the clock works,etc. This is all happening during prosperity time. I can't imagine what it would happen when recession hit combined with flood of pharmacists entering the market.

    We have the student loan bubble and stock bubble yet people think it's a good idea to pay for high 30 years mortgages and sign up for $300,000 student loan for underemployed and unstable job. Fun time ahead!
     
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  43. Secret_Informant

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    The original post is a rhetorical question used to generate discussion, not to address the issue. I'm moving on from this thread and this entire topic and seeking employment as a pharmacist once I get my license. The problem is going into informatics and HEOR as one must work in either a hospital (per-diem) or a setting in industry that uses HEOR. Per-diem would be fine if I can land (not find) the job.

    Even if employment is temporary, one can transfer their skills towards another career or business pursuit. Many pharmacists left the traditional pharmacy job market to become something else (either within healthcare or in some other career field). I guess that is what we will have to do eventually to "stay frosty/competitive" and to reach more people. From the posts on this thread, even order entry and mail order seem appealing.

    Not every PharmD becomes a pharmacist and not all pharmacists are PharmDs.
     
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    #93 Secret_Informant, Dec 8, 2018
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  44. steveysmith54

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    Sad state when one attains a doctorate in a field, considered the highest degree available in a profession and does not have the opportunity to practice the profession/degree that took 6-8 years of hard work to achieve. Used to be a high honor and a valuable credential to hold.
     
  45. Secret_Informant

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    I just want to address this one post.

    For me, it was about 15 years (to correct your statement). I have not attained my RPh yet and I decided to take the Board Exam and MPJE in February 2019. I needed the time to prepare myself personally and financially for it, which is ok. The whole point of the post was to say I am not giving up yet.

    I have not truly started looking as I still need the license to apply for pharmacist jobs. However, if I cannot find something as a pharmacist within 1 year in any of the states I designated (staffing or otherwise) post-licensure, I will consider other skills that are useful and find other jobs that will utilize the talents and skills gained from the PharmD. I already have an interview for a contract work-from-home position in NJ for $32-$37 per hour (CRA, actually). Not many pharmacists that I know of from the symposia and conferences I attended work from home or have the opportunity to generate their own schedule on their own time. Many individuals vent about the commute to work when they forget there are other options.

    In summary, at least I am getting looked at in other areas besides pharmacy for interviews. The PharmD does help, just not with the typical pharmacy positions at this time. I would not have even had ANY interviews of ANY kind without it, let alone phone calls for interviews. It does help somewhat when my MS and BS degrees would not even grant me ONE interview for even an ER Scribe position in FL ($15 per hour).
     
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    #95 Secret_Informant, Dec 8, 2018
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  46. PromethazineDM

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    I haven't been paying attention to new grads in retail area. I do know it is difficult to find a job even if they did a residency. I see alot of 2 year residents nowaday.

    I heard the schedule aren't stable either. It requires a lot of floating. Yet we still have tech and people sign up for pharmacy shools for 80-100k job for an uncertain future, mountain of debts, variable work schedule, and a lot of competitions.

    I gave up convincing people why they shouldn't be a pharmacist. A lot of them are know-it-all and dismiss my warnings only to be ask if my hospital is hiring once they graduated from an out of state school.
     
  47. puahate

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    It is criminal what these schools and pharmacies have done to this profession. Pharmacist used to be highly regarded. They were basiclly on the same level as physicians in prestige. I remember considering it in my middle school and early high school years.

    It really aches my heart because this field is important and is interesting. So many great minds are not being rewarded and the admissions standards have become so low now that it in endangering the field.
     
  48. Pharmdregrets

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    Let me put things into perspective for you. Not only are there no Pharmacist jobs available (those that require state licensure), there are no jobs for PharmD's whatsoever. After getting "lucky" in 2012 I accepted a job offer in Fresno, CA as a "float Pharmacist" and floated my way around the huge ugly district until I almost got into an accident on those awful rural roads out in central valley, CA. I then took a break from Pharmacy, lived in the Mid East for a year (US born myself but family there), moved back and this time came to Denver, CO.

    I have taken the MPJE and failed (very close and didn't really study) so I am about to prepare to take it again. After passing, I get to pay about a $1000 for licensing and I can now be licensed in two states! How exciting! So do I want to spend even another buck on this "career"? I have already looked into the job market here in Colorado and it's awful just like CA where I'm still applying for jobs (active license) to no avail. I just want temp jobs or even jobs at pharma companies, non-dispensing roles, anything....

    There is also no prestige or respect. I actually stooped low enough to go to a famous temp agency to cover my bills while I try and figure out what I am going to do. You'd thing as a PharmD you would at least get the higher level temp jobs right? No.

    My advice would be to not become a Pharmacist unless yiu have major connections. And by major connections I don't mean you met a few people at a Kappa group I mean like maybe YOUR DADDY OWNS A SUCCESSFUL PHARMACY
     
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  49. Pharmdregrets

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    And by the way when I first started attending school back in 2010 they were already questioning whether there are "too many Pharmacists". At this point I think this has been a well known fact for a decade.
     
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  50. nafcillin

    10+ Year Member

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    Name checks out
     
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