Are you religious?

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I don't think the Bible is the centerhold of morality. Reading about Noah's Ark made me wanna help animals though :)

Plus, if I listened to the Bible 100% I might feel bad about being attracted to dudes, but nope still enjoying it!

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Ok, so if the Bible is the true moral code, how come humans have needed to interpret what readings are and aren't moral? How did we decide that, for example, "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand" is not a moral thing to do if the Bible is the only way that we know what is moral?"

Well more generally, I would say that every law put forth in the Old Testament had the purpose of showing us how sinful we are and furthermore that we could never live up to the standard set forth; there is reason behind each of them, yet we would never be able to abide by every one, because it is in our nature to seek our own good and even when we try to do good, we can't be perfectly good. Jesus was the answer to this, because he acted as a sacrifice for all of us that can't achieve perfection. He was perfect, but he was punished for us. Paul says, "He became sin that we might become the righteousness of God."

In short, all of the laws were moral to follow at one time, but grace is bigger than law, and in light of being forgiven, it would no longer be moral to hold someone accountable for their sins. The Bible is best interpreted as a whole, because one part without the other doesn't tell the whole story.

Hopefully that answers your question lol idk
 
If you're curious about Nietzsche's ideas, then I encourage you to look them up because he would say them much more eloquently than I would.

Regarding objective moral values, the argument goes something like this.

P1 If objective moral values exist, God exists.
P2 Objective moral values do exist
P3 God exists.

Atheists and theists both agree that P1 is true, so it only remains to prove P2. This is something that you either get or not, but it is surely true. For instance, it is objectively true that killing children is wrong. Everyone would agree with that, and if you don't, that says a lot about you but doesn't weaken the argument.

Okay, even if this extremely weak argument holds true (I don't think morality requires us to have a God)...Then it still makes absolutely no sense to follow Jesus/Christianity as opposed to any other religion out there. I mean clearly the only reason you and others do believe in christianity is a) you grew up with it or b) you were talked into it by other christians, or c) you were searching for an explanation of life and landed on Christianity.

When you look objectively at christianity you can see how ridiculous it is...and I would even say that the god of the bible is immoral himself. He drowns everyone and everything (including innocent little animals) because humans are "sinners", he murders hundreds of first born egyptian children who had nothing to do with the enslavement of jews in egypt, he convinces a father to murder is own son...and worst of all, he creates all of us on this merry little planet with his primary motive being that we all believe in him, pray to him, thank him and ENSLAVE ourselves to him for our entire lives.

I thank billions of years of evolution for providing us with our brains that enable us to do what we as humans are capable of doing.
 
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Okay, the Bible and God is the source of morality. That must mean any society who doesn't take the Bible as the word of God cannot be moral. So, no one in Japan, Korea, or pretty much any other Asian country at be moral. No one in Africa can be moral. Atheists can't be moral. Before Christ was born no one could have been moral because we wouldn't know what morality is without the Bible. See how ridiculous that is?

Morality is a result of animals living in a social environment where the actions of one member potentially has repercussions for other members. Haven't you ever heard of kin selection? Animals have been found to act altruistically, and this morality doesn't come from God. The beginning of morality started the same way for humans. In order for humans to coexist in groups, there had to be a system in place that would punish cheaters and reward those who lived peacefully with others. And this happened thousands and thousands of years before humans even thought up the Christian religion.

Here's the wikipedia article for kin selection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection
 
Okay, even if this extremely weak argument holds true (I don't think morality requires us to have a God)...Then it still makes absolutely no sense to follow Jesus/Christianity as opposed to any other religion out there. I mean clearly the only reason you and others do believe in christianity is a) you grew up with it or b) you were talked into it by other christians, or c) you were searching for an explanation of life and landed on Christianity.

When you look objectively at christianity you can see how ridiculous it is...and I would even say that the god of the bible is immoral himself. He drowns everyone and everything (including innocent little animals) because humans are "sinners", he murders hundreds of first born egyptian children who had nothing to do with the enslavement of jews in egypt, he convinces a father to murder is own son...and worst of all, he creates all of us on this merry little planet with his primary motive being that we all believe in him, pray to him, thank him and ENSLAVE ourselves to him for our entire lives.

I thank billions of years of evolution for providing us with our brains that enable us to do what we as humans are capable of doing.

First, it is not a weak argument. It is a simple, strong argument that doesn't really go away because nobody has disproved it and it makes sense.

Second, I fall into the last group that didn't grow up in a Christian family and wasn't persuaded by somebody. You assumed that anyone who chooses to become a Christian did not look at it objectively. As I said earlier, everyone has a worldview, and I am not saying you are "ridiculous" for being an atheist and you don't have to call me ridiculous for being a Christian. Having faith in something that you haven't seen with your own eyes doesn't make you a fool, it makes you faithful and that's it.

And if the Christian worldview is true, we were created to live in relationship with God. Jesus said that we are not his slaves but his friends. We serve him because we love him and want to, and He blesses us and guides us. It is a relationship, not slavery.
 
Okay, the Bible and God is the source of morality. That must mean any society who doesn't take the Bible as the word of God cannot be moral.

how is it that you kids never catch it when I talk about the irony in these discussions.... :confused:

I understand you are presenting that as an absurd extension to make your point, but in doing so you misrepresent the point you attempt to argue. Such strawman arguments are why I find the atheists in these arguments usually the ones in the most need of logical correction. The theists (most often) do not attempt to defend their belief with logic until pressed into a corner by atheists.

There is just not a single situation in which saying morals are derived from "god" means that unbelievers must necessarily not be moral. If certain groups do believe this, fine. You have proven those people wrong. But that is not what is on the table here.

You err in thinking christians are absent in asia and africa... I mean seriously..... That is bad

You also err in making a statement that implies that jesus gave us the bible. Do you know what the old testament is? The whole "before christ was born" line is just so ridiculous that it I am embarrassed for you.

At best you have combated someone who is saying that "Morals are given to us by god AND it was imparted via skype with the ancient hebrews".

A cake raises because of the interactions with yeast and the gas produced. It also raises because the baker put that yeast there. Both statements are true and are not mutually exclusive.
 
how is it that you kids never catch it when I talk about the irony in these discussions.... :confused:

I understand you are presenting that as an absurd extension to make your point, but in doing so you misrepresent the point you attempt to argue. Such strawman arguments are why I find the atheists in these arguments usually the ones in the most need of logical correction. The theists (most often) do not attempt to defend their belief with logic until pressed into a corner by atheists.

There is just not a single situation in which saying morals are derived from "god" means that unbelievers must necessarily not be moral. If certain groups do believe this, fine. You have proven those people wrong. But that is not what is on the table here.

You err in thinking christians are absent in asia and africa... I mean seriously..... That is bad

You also err in making a statement that implies that jesus gave us the bible. Do you know what the old testament is? The whole "before christ was born" line is just so ridiculous that it I am embarrassed for you.

At best you have combated someone who is saying that "Morals are given to us by god AND it was imparted via skype with the ancient hebrews".

A cake raises because of the interactions with yeast and the gas produced. It also raises because the baker put that yeast there. Both statements are true and are not mutually exclusive.

That last part is exactly how I feel. I wouldn't be pursuing medicine if I didn't think that science is useful, but just because we can break something down into a physical explanation, doesn't mean that God has no part in it. Also, if we CAN'T break something down into a physical explanation, that does not mean that God has no part in it.
 
Evolutionary fitness refers to the quantity of your genes that you pass on to the next generation, or the amount of children you have. I don't see how people like the Octomom can be used to support your argument. It's probably too much to try to explain it all here, but the general idea is that you want to have as many children as possible to be as fit as possible. Men do not have to invest as much energy or time into producing offspring as women do. Therefore, it is in their best interest to mate with as many females as possible. Females, on the other hand, must invest much more into producing (and raising) their offspring. It is therefore in their best interest to choose their partners wisely. There is a struggle between the two strategies, and what we have as a result is a widely varying system of reproductive strategies. You can find different societies throughout human history that use divergent reproductive strategies, whether they are harems where the males mate with multiple females, to the more traditional monogamous partnerships.

It is also very important to note that evolution does not determine destiny. At some point in primate development, the human brain took off and developed mental capabilities beyond what was known before. After the development of such an advanced brain, the development of social structures arguably became a stronger force in human development (at least in terms of behavior) than evolutionary forces. As a result, you start seeing behavior that would not normally be seen as evolutionarily fit.

This was a very good explanation. I think people misunderstood my octomom post. I was not trying to say her way was preferred.
 
Yes, if we didn't have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, and if God didn't reveal Himself to us because He loves us and wants to guide us, we wouldn't have a clue. The golden rule that you guys like to use as your moral code is right out of the bible.

And the bible took it from previous religions/cultures, 'tis extremely naive that you think morality originated from the bible...:laugh:

Go to the golden rule wiki for a brief history lesson, and don't give me any bull about wiki not being reliable.

here's a quick quote

Rushworth Kidder discusses the early contributions of Confucius (551–479 BCE) (See a version in Confucianism below). Kidder notes that this concept's framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".[7] According to Greg M. Epstein, " 'do unto others' ... is a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely."[8] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[9] In his commentary to the Torah verse (Hebrew: "ואהבת לרעך כמוך" ca.1300 BCE):


And SpecterGT260 it's funny you've assumed the role of an apologist for the theists by you constantly attacking what you feel is poor logical arguments or fallacies of non-theists when completely ignoring the theists and their absurdly false statements, such as christ rising from the dead being accepted historical fact, or that atheists (as if they are a collective unit) agree on some simple logical proof would prove god exists, or that without the bible we would have no clue how to be moral. Oh yeah, we're the illogical ones. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I've wasted enough time with this thread. You gals have fun spinning your wheels.
 
And SpecterGT260 it's funny you've assumed the role of an apologist for the theists by you constantly attacking what you feel is poor logical arguments or fallacies of non-theists when completely ignoring the theists and their absurdly false statements, such as christ rising from the dead being accepted historical fact, or that atheists (as if they are a collective unit) agree on some simple logical proof would prove god exists, or that without the bible we would have no clue how to be moral. Oh yeah, we're the illogical ones. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I've wasted enough time with this thread. You gals have fun spinning your wheels.

no it isnt :confused:

The primary weapon the atheist "wields" is logic. and when yielded poorly or when guilty of fallacy i can't hardly stand the irony. If a theist were to start claiming that the basic beliefs logically followed from observations in an exclusive way well... id have the same thing to say. You find it "funny" because you don't have a reasonable retort :shrug: your counterpoint back to me is essentially "Oh yeah? Well HE started it!" So what... a theist being irrational or even MORE irrational than you does not make or unmake you irrational. Yet another example of your irrationality here ;)

The issue here is that we have a case of the pot calling the kettle Teflon-coated... or however that idiom goes.

In these debates, athiests love to point to science and reason for why they have concluded that god does not exist, blissfully unaware that there is no logical progression that they possess which disproves the existence of god. Just those which disprove the sayings of specific religious people. It is that logical disconnect that I think is really interesting in these discussions. i.e. the atheist touting logic as his major reason for not believing is akin to the theist hooking up a car battery to your nipples until you agree morals come from god. Both people violate their base argument in the process of making it.
 
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And the bible took it from previous religions/cultures, 'tis extremely naive that you think morality originated from the bible...:laugh:

Go to the golden rule wiki for a brief history lesson, and don't give me any bull about wiki not being reliable.

here's a quick quote




And SpecterGT260 it's funny you've assumed the role of an apologist for the theists by you constantly attacking what you feel is poor logical arguments or fallacies of non-theists when completely ignoring the theists and their absurdly false statements, such as christ rising from the dead being accepted historical fact, or that atheists (as if they are a collective unit) agree on some simple logical proof would prove god exists, or that without the bible we would have no clue how to be moral. Oh yeah, we're the illogical ones. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I've wasted enough time with this thread. You gals have fun spinning your wheels.

I didn't join the thread to start a war, just to present the other side, because before I joined there were a lot of statements that were misrepresenting my faith. But since we continue to misunderstand everything I say, I will continue to make corrections: First, I said that expert atheist philosophers agree that if there are objective moral values, then God exists. Not that atheists collectively concede that the premise has been proved. Also, it is not accepted that Christ rose from the dead by everyone, or else I would not have needed to say it. What I said is that an objective look at the historical evidence, to me, gives more credence to that story over any other (as doctors say, if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.) Anyway, just because somebody doesn't believe like you do doesn't mean that they are absurd.
 
I didn't join the thread to start a war, just to present the other side, because before I joined there were a lot of statements that were misrepresenting my faith. But since we continue to misunderstand everything I say, I will continue to make corrections: First, I said that expert atheist philosophers agree that if there are objective moral values, then God exists. Not that atheists collectively concede that the premise has been proved. Also, it is not accepted that Christ rose from the dead by everyone, or else I would not have needed to say it. What I said is that an objective look at the historical evidence, to me, gives more credence to that story over any other (as doctors say, if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.) Anyway, just because somebody doesn't believe like you do doesn't mean that they are absurd.

You don't know jack about philosophy, mate. Take it from a philosophy student (in a previous part of my life) - atheist philosophers agree on no such thing. Nietzsche and Sartre come to mind; and even Kant, when talking about God and the categorical imperative, wasn't talking about any God I would recognize as Christian in the typical American fundie sense.

Not to mention that there are any number of ways to talk about morality that have nothing to do with a Christian God. If this is something that interests you (which I doubt), I would suggest reading the Nichomachean Ethics (Aristotle), Beyond Good and Evil (Nietzsche), The Plague (a novel by Albert Camus). I would suggest Kant, except that reading the Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals without having read the Critique of Pure Reason is kind of pointless, and there's no way anyone's just going to read the Critique for the hell of it. But the Antinomies are pretty cool.
 
how is it that you kids never catch it when I talk about the irony in these discussions.... :confused:

I understand you are presenting that as an absurd extension to make your point, but in doing so you misrepresent the point you attempt to argue. Such strawman arguments are why I find the atheists in these arguments usually the ones in the most need of logical correction. The theists (most often) do not attempt to defend their belief with logic until pressed into a corner by atheists.

That's because there is no logic their argument. It's based on faith, and nothing can touch faith.

I can just as well say there's a flying spaghetti monster in the outer reaches of the 60 millionth closest galaxy to Earth, and there would be no way to prove that I was wrong. I can base my belief entirely on faith, but wanting to believe it's true doesn't make it so. People who believe in God have the burden of proof, not atheists, but there is no evidence that God exists. But you guys just go back to saying that there is no way to prove he doesn't exist, so the cycle just goes on and on with no end.

There is just not a single situation in which saying morals are derived from "god" means that unbelievers must necessarily not be moral. If certain groups do believe this, fine. You have proven those people wrong. But that is not what is on the table here.
There were plenty of religious posters writing that morals come from God so I don't see what your point is.

You err in thinking christians are absent in asia and africa... I mean seriously..... That is bad
And you suppose that there were Christians before Europeans arrived in Asia or Africa? If morals came from a Christian God, then how can precolonial Africa or Asia possibly figure out what was moral and what was not? Did people living in China before any contact with Europeans have morals? Could they not figure out what was moral and what was not because they had no concept of a Christian God? Can any religious person explain that?

In the past, people who said that morals come from a Christian God are implied that those who do not believe are "barbarians" or "savages" and must be converted. The Africans didn't believe in God, and therefore must not have morals. Why not enslave them right?

You also err in making a statement that implies that jesus gave us the bible. Do you know what the old testament is? The whole "before christ was born" line is just so ridiculous that it I am embarrassed for you.
Don't feel embarrassed for me. I know what the Old Testament is, and I feel liberated knowing that I don't believe that some vengeful, vindictive God is looking over my shoulder, judging my every move. I only used the "before Christ was born" line because no in their right mind would use the Old Testament as a moral guide, which only begs the question of how people can distinguish between what is right and wrong in the Bible (hint: it's not because it's in the Bible!).

At best you have combated someone who is saying that "Morals are given to us by god AND it was imparted via skype with the ancient hebrews".
That actually sounds just as plausible as a man in the sky ordering people around and divining "holy books." Not to mention a boat that can fit two specimens of every species of animal, talking bushes, and a virgin birth. Yep, all completely plausible.

A cake raises because of the interactions with yeast and the gas produced. It also raises because the baker put that yeast there. Both statements are true and are not mutually exclusive.
Wait, what?
 
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What? what the... why.... did you even read? half of your post you just reiterate MY point as if it contradicts me and the other you just say things that are simply irrelevant.

Let's go through this :smack:

That's because there is no logic their argument. It's based on faith, and nothing can touch faith.
There is no nice way to say this....
tumblr_lzb9lwu4sZ1r1mqmto2_500.png


My point was this: Religious people do not tout their arguments as logical, so attacking their logic is somewhat silly. In contrast, atheists DO tout their arguments as logical and are very often guilty of poor logic. I find it odd that otherwise clear thinking individuals see any merit to the argument that says "Oh you think IM being illogical? well HE is being WAY more illogical so there!" as if that in any way fixes the irrationality of the offender :confused: That is grade-school thinking. The kind of thought process that gets a child to point and say "well he started it". It's just bad.

I can just as well say there's a flying spaghetti monster in the outer reaches of the 60 millionth closest galaxy to Earth, and there would be no way to prove that I was wrong. I can base my belief entirely on faith, but wanting to believe it's true doesn't make it so. People who believe in God have the burden of proof, not atheists, but there is no evidence that God exists. But you guys just go back to saying that there is no way to prove he doesn't exist, so the cycle just goes on and on with no end.
You are simply wrong here. You cannot put the burden of proof on someone like that. If they were to demand that YOU believe then yes, they have the burden of proof. Burden of proof does not follow the positive statement. It follows he who asserts a fact towards another. For most religious, their faith is enough for them and they don't demand that others believe what they do. For those who do call others to believe as they do, part of the deal remains faith, so if you won't believe on faith you wouldnt be doing what the religious person wants anyways and it becomes a moot point. However, what happened here is someone expressed that they were religious and the atheists jumped down their throat saying "God does not exist", thereby asserting a fact onto another and assuming the burden of proof. It's on you skippy ;):thumbup:
There were plenty of religious posters writing that morals come from God so I don't see what your point is.
What? How in the name of Spaghetti Monster did you think I said people were not saying morals came from god? I said that the claim that they come from god does not mean that non-believers must be amoral. And this is your response? what?... :confused:

And you suppose that there were Christians before Europeans arrived in Asia or Africa? If morals came from a Christian God, then how can precolonial Africa or Asia possibly figure out what was moral and what was not? Did people living in China before any contact with Europeans have morals? Could they not figure out what was moral and what was not because they had no concept of a Christian God? Can any religious person explain that?
Here is the thing.... The argument "If you say morals come from god, that means any non-believers must be amoral" is simply ridiculous. For that to work, it means that non-believers would also not be created by god. Belief and origin are two separate things and are just simply not linked. This is an example of an irrational and inappropriate logical extension that you made in your argument, one that I find ironic because you so scorn the irrationality of theists while at the same time being highly irrational.



In the past, people who said that morals come from a Christian God are implied that those who do not believe are "barbarians" or "savages" and must be converted. The Africans didn't believe in God, and therefore must not have morals. Why not enslave them right?
Oh, so now how the followers choose to use such beliefs impacts either the validity of the statement or the chance of there being a god.... I suppose if your dog disobeys a command you also cease to exist now. Interesting

Nobody is saying that many within the church werent *******s. They were :thumbup: but the logical disconnect is attributing their behavior towards the likelihood of a god or "higher power". There is simply no logical progression there so attempting to do so makes you as guilty as every religious person you have ever scoffed at.
Don't feel embarrassed for me. I know what the Old Testament is, and I feel liberated knowing that I don't believe that some vengeful, vindictive God is looking over my shoulder, judging my every move. I only used the "before Christ was born" line because no in their right mind would use the Old Testament as a moral guide, which only begs the question of how people can distinguish between what is right and wrong in the Bible (hint: it's not because it's in the Bible!).
I feel like you are backpeddaling your argument and... really nothing here is relevant to what we were discussing.

That actually sounds just as plausible as a man in the sky ordering people around and divining "holy books." Not to mention a boat that can fit two specimens of every species of animal, talking bushes, and a virgin birth. Yep, all completely plausible.

Wait, what?

That last bit was pretty succinct. Others got it. That you didn't tells me quite a bit....
 
Upon reading responses you are hilarious, "I never say he started it" blah blah... I just find comedy in your assumed role as "logic assesor" which is funny because you're not very good at reasoning,

Case in point:
Here is the thing.... The argument "If you say morals come from god, that means any non-believers must be amoral" is simply ridiculous. For that to work, it means that non-believers would also not be created by god.

This is an awful awful attempt at reasoning, he was saying the morals come from divine instruction through religion, not endowed with a person when created. He meant if god tells us how to be moral and atheists disregard god, then atheists must be immoral. So his statement made perfect sense, you were just :confused: confused as usual. Nice try though.
 
Aren't most religious people guilty of purposely ignoring logic in constructing their personal outlook on life? You don't see a problem in this specter???
 
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