Ask LizzyM (Almost) Anything 2012 edition

[Si Se Puede]

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Can I PM you my undergrad institution to ask what adcoms at your top-tier school would say about my undergrad? It's ranked low but reknowned for other aspects, which makes me wonder why the undergrad is ranked so low. Definitely a name that is heard fairly often in medical circles I would say.

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

Thanks Lizzy. That's why I avoid mentioning my military service because some people ask - what did you do in the military. And then I have to tell them I was a plumber for the US Army and then suddenly it doesn't look prestigious any more. A girl who turned me down for a date posted on her Facebook page that I was really nice but she didn't want to date someone who was a plumber.

Another question occurred to me. The Colorado School of Mines is ranked #4 in most surveys of Physics departments. It is very prestigious in my field, Physics, often ranking one or two schools below MIT, but no one knows that. They have one of the top PhD Physics programs in the country and also in Nuclear Engineering. But medical adcoms will hear the name "Colorado School of Mines" and probably go - what in the world is that mining school. So I have avoided taking any classes there even though I won't have to pay any tuition there. Is this a good call on my part?

Thank you for doing this and providing this great service to students!

Plumber in the U.S army? That's awesome ! Never be embarrassed about any sort of service for your country. You should be proud. Great job!

 

[UrbanRiver]

Hi LizzyM,

Thank you for doing this. I recently got a speeding ticket in California (83 mph on freeway). I also got accepted into a medical school that I love. Will this speeding ticket come up on criminal background check, and if so, will this jeopardize my acceptance to this med school? Should I let the admissions committee know about this ticket before the criminal background check? I'm a bit paranoid at this point since it took so much to just get this acceptance.

Thank you!

 

[cheree cheree]

It is considered not as difficult as Harvard College. I don't recall seeing anyone doing an entire post-bac there; mostly college grads working at Harvard & taking a few classes. The post-bacs I most admire are Columbia, Bryn Mawr, and Mills College.

Why do you most admire those programs? I believe they're the oldest programs, so is it just that they're held in high regard within the medical community, or do you think they have more specific advantages? Or perhaps you just know the directors, which would make sense.

Does the reputation of the postbacc program significantly help an applicant? What do you think of programs like Tufts and NYU?

 

[LizzyM]

Another question occurred to me. The Colorado School of Mines is ranked #4 in most surveys of Physics departments. It is very prestigious in my field, Physics, often ranking one or two schools below MIT, but no one knows that. They have one of the top PhD Physics programs in the country and also in Nuclear Engineering. But medical adcoms will hear the name "Colorado School of Mines" and probably go - what in the world is that mining school. So I have avoided taking any classes there even though I won't have to pay any tuition there. Is this a good call on my part?

We aren't in the dark about Colorado School of Mines. I seem to recall interviewing someone from that school a year or two ago.

No tuition charge at a school that is relatively highly regarded? Choosing to avoid that school is not a good move.

 

[LizzyM]

the numbers are of course very impressive, but i really don't find these ECs to be that impressive at all. in fact, it seems that everyone at SDN have way more impressive ECs fom both quality and quantity perspectives.

i guess this mainly illustrates that numbers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ECs + everything else.

lastly, most of my peers who got into top 10 schools have the above ECs (minus the musical instruments), 36 MCAT, and slightly lower GPA (3.6-3.8). then again, my undergrad is known for grade deflation, so they might have gotten some slack in terms of GPA.

The question was "what does the average cookie cutter applicant who gets an interview look like?" This is average, hitting all the marks but not exceptional in any one. Most of these "cookie cutters" with high grades and scores will get interviews and unless they have personality deficits they will get offers.

 

[LizzyM]

How do you look at different classes and weigh them? E.g. pre reqs versus advanced versus undergrad pre reqs in humanities.

We look at BCPM gpa by year and All other (AO) gpa by year and total gpa by year. I also tend to look at lowest grades and what the courses were that garnered those lowest grades.

How significant does an EC have to be that it can be a benefit to an applicant if its not clinically related?

Experiences should contribute to personal growth. I'm not sure I understand the question.

If a person can get all their volunteering experiences summed up better in <100 hours versus someone with >100 hours, will they be looked on favorably?

Volunteering should be about service to the community. Unless you can cure poverty, hunger and illiteracy, there should be no point at which you've done enough for humanity.

What is considered a significant downhill or uphill grade trend?

If each year's gpa is greater than the gpa of the year before that is an upward trend. If each year's gpa is less than the gpa of the prior year, that's a downward trend. Significant?? if the change is >0.09 it might be something that catches an adcom's eye.

 

[Lafakads]

The question was "what does the average cookie cutter applicant who gets an interview look like?" This is average, hitting all the marks but not exceptional in any one. Most of these "cookie cutters" with high grades and scores will get interviews and unless they have personality deficits they will get offers.

What exactly is a personality deficit out of curiosity?

 

[phikapdoctor]

How would you look upon being a core leader for church? I am looking into a position that I help junior high kids understand their faith. It is every Monday for 4 hours.
Also I give talks in front of 150+ kids about bible passages. Would this be considered leadership at all?
I don't want to commit that much time if it won't hold any weight in your guys eyes?
Thanks

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

Thank you for doing this. I recently got a speeding ticket in California (83 mph on freeway). I also got accepted into a medical school that I love. Will this speeding ticket come up on criminal background check, and if so, will this jeopardize my acceptance to this med school? Should I let the admissions committee know about this ticket before the criminal background check? I'm a bit paranoid at this point since it took so much to just get this acceptance.

Thank you!

YMMV (no pun intended) but speeding tickets aren't a big deal at my school. That said, you must alert the admissions office before they do your criminal background check. A mantra in medicine is "no surprises" (you always want your supervisor to hear it from you as soon as possible, rather than finding out second-hand at a later point).

 

[LizzyM]

Why do you most admire those programs? I believe they're the oldest programs, so is it just that they're held in high regard within the medical community, or do you think they have more specific advantages? Or perhaps you just know the directors, which would make sense.

Does the reputation of the postbacc program significantly help an applicant? What do you think of programs like Tufts and NYU?

I do not know the directors or advisors of those programs. I see quite a few Columbia post-bac applicants each year, less from Bryn Mawr and Mills. When adcom people pass around names of good programs, those are the ones I hear mentioned most often. Those programs do send great letters on behalf of their applicants, too. I'm sure there are other great programs, too.

 

[aspiring20]

The question was "what does the average cookie cutter applicant who gets an interview look like?" This is average, hitting all the marks but not exceptional in any one. Most of these "cookie cutters" with high grades and scores will get interviews and unless they have personality deficits they will get offers.

but this is average cookie cutter applicant to a top tier school (i am imagining that other applicants are less impressive all around). and by getting offers, do you mean getting in somewhere? i can't imagine all the cookie cutter applicants with high stats get into top schools like yours.

 

[noncon]

LizzyM, if you haven't already seen this, the attached data shows how different majors do on the MCAT.

 

[Geebeejay]

Okay Lizzy, here's a question. First off, I am a nursing assistant. Faced with the choice of getting a letter from my employer (a nurse manager who is also the boss of about a hundred other employees, and rarely is on the floor) and a letter from a co-worker (a nurse who I certainly spent more time with, and was able to witness my clinical skills and patient interactions first-hand), I chose the co-worker. He is a nurse, so I am still professionally accountable to him as a nursing assistant. In retrospect, do you think this was the right call, or would you give more weight and consideration to a letter written by an employer?

 

[LizzyM]

What exactly is a personality deficit out of curiosity?

Arrogance, rudeness toward staff, anxiety and nervousness so profound that one can barely speak, profound shyness, disinterest in others.

 

[amad01]

Sad to say, some adcoms are snobbish when it comes to undergrad institution. If you didn't go to a top school you have to be twice as good ... a MCAT >40 might help. I wish I were kidding. 😳

This might be a bit of an exaggeration but the lower tier undergrad, 3.8, 36 is not our cookie cutter applicant who gets invited for interview but that's not to say that someone who is extraordinary in some way but who went to a lower tier undergrad won't get an interview offer, just that they are an exception to the typical candidate.

UG shouldn't even matter. What is the purpose of the standardized exam? A 36 is a 36 regardless of where the student learned the material. The point of the MCAT is to equalize the playing field. A 3.8 is a 3.8 and a very good GPA regardless of where the degree was achieved, and when coupled by a 36 MCAT it should be no different than any other 3.8 36.

How could you possibly evaluate the difference in difficulty of UGx and UGy? Each institution has different courses, different professors who teach the courses in a distinct manner, different tests, different grading style, different everything.

 

[LizzyM]

but this is average cookie cutter applicant to a top tier school (i am imagining that other applicants are less impressive all around). and by getting offers, do you mean getting in somewhere? i can't imagine all the cookie cutter applicants with high stats get into top schools like yours.

Yes, someone asked what a cookie cutter applicant who gets an interview at my school looks like. That's my answer.

And yes, almost all applicants who get an interview at my school get in somewhere. Among applicants with MCAT 36-38 and gpa 3.80-4.0, about 93% get admitted. I'm guessing that the other 7% gave off a bad vibe during the interview or had a serious institutional action or applied too late and to too few places.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay Lizzy, here's a question. First off, I am a nursing assistant. Faced with the choice of getting a letter from my employer (a nurse manager who is also the boss of about a hundred other employees, and rarely is on the floor) and a letter from a co-worker (a nurse who I certainly spent more time with, and was able to witness my clinical skills and patient interactions first-hand), I chose the co-worker. He is a nurse, so I am still professionally accountable to him as a nursing assistant. In retrospect, do you think this was the right call, or would you give more weight and consideration to a letter written by an employer?

I wouldn't think that it matters much.

 

[vitanuova]

Several years ago my brother and I spent the summer living with my grandmother to help her care for my grandfather who was dying of cancer. My grandfather lived at home and had a nurse visit him regularly. I helped with his daily care, talked with his nurse and doctor. I saw how the cancer destroyed his body and I watched him die. At the time I was not planning on attending medical school but in retrospect I learned and experienced many relevant things that summer.

Does this count as clinical experience or is it merely a part of my personal life? Does it belong next to "volunteering in hospital" under clinical experiences or should it be part of my personal statement... or should I not include it at all?

 

[Ansar]

LizzyM, if you haven't already seen this, the attached data shows how different majors do on the MCAT.

I'm not LizzyM, but thanks for the link!

I guess us Physics majors tend to do pretty well 👍

 

[LizzyM]

UG shouldn't even matter. What is the purpose of the standardized exam? A 36 is a 36 regardless of where the student learned the material. The point of the MCAT is to equalize the playing field. A 3.8 is a 3.8 and a very good GPA regardless of where the degree was achieved, and when coupled by a 36 MCAT it should be no different than any other 3.8 36.

How could you possibly evaluate the difference in difficulty of UGx and UGy? Each institution has different courses, different professors who teach the courses in a distinct manner, different tests, different grading style, different everything.

OK, so a 3.8 at Harvard and a 3.8 at Bridgewater State College are pretty much equivalent? Yale and University of New Haven are the same?

Schools have reputations. One reputation is for selectivity in admissions. The very selective schools will have very high performing students while a school with less selectivity may admit students who are less impressive in terms of academic horsepower. Are we more impressed with someone who manages a A in a class of freshmen who have an average SAT score of 2200 or one where the averge SAT was 1500?

MCAT is not a standardized exam by the strict definition. It is a measure of performance on a single day. It has biases. A 8 14 14 is not the same as a 12 12 12.

 

[LizzyM]

Several years ago my brother and I spent the summer living with my grandmother to help her care for my grandfather who was dying of cancer. My grandfather lived at home and had a nurse visit him regularly. I helped with his daily care, talked with his nurse and doctor. I saw how the cancer destroyed his body and I watched him die. At the time I was not planning on attending medical school but in retrospect I learned and experienced many relevant things that summer.

Does this count as clinical experience or is it merely a part of my personal life? Does it belong next to "volunteering in hospital" under clinical experiences or should it be part of my personal statement... or should I not include it at all?

Well, that first paragraph could be a good first paragraph of a personal statement. Then you could describe the activities you had engaged in that lead you toward a career in medicine and how what you learned at your grandfather's bedside came back to you at those moments. It could be a powerful essay. But don't ask me to read it. 😉

 

[Plue00]

OK, so a 3.8 at Harvard and a 3.8 at Bridgewater State College are pretty much equivalent? Yale and University of New Haven are the same?

Schools have reputations. One reputation is for selectivity in admissions. The very selective schools will have very high performing students while a school with less selectivity may admit students who are less impressive in terms of academic horsepower. Are we more impressed with someone who manages a A in a class of freshmen who have an average SAT score of 2200 or one where the averge SAT was 1500?

MCAT is not a standardized exam by the strict definition. It is a measure of performance on a single day. It has biases. A 8 14 14 is not the same as a 12 12 12.

I'm happy to hear this! Glad adcoms know that top schools are generally harder than average schools!

 

[ijn]

OK, so a 3.8 at Harvard and a 3.8 at Bridgewater State College are pretty much equivalent? Yale and University of New Haven are the same?

Schools have reputations. One reputation is for selectivity in admissions. The very selective schools will have very high performing students while a school with less selectivity may admit students who are less impressive in terms of academic horsepower. Are we more impressed with someone who manages a A in a class of freshmen who have an average SAT score of 2200 or one where the averge SAT was 1500?

MCAT is not a standardized exam by the strict definition. It is a measure of performance on a single day. It has biases. A 8 14 14 is not the same as a 12 12 12.

It's good to know that classism is alive and well in the hearts of American medical school admissions officers. I wouldn't be any more or less impressed if a man came from a state college versus some "elite" Ivy. It has nothing to do with being a good doctor. But I suppose you guys can brag to admissions officers at other schools if you snagged a Harvard kid! It doesn't matter how hard either worked or how intelligent they are, it's about BS prestige.

 

[aspiring20]

YMMV (no pun intended) but speeding tickets aren't a big deal at my school. That said, you must alert the admissions office before they do your criminal background check. A mantra in medicine is "no surprises" (you always want your supervisor to hear it from you as soon as possible, rather than finding out second-hand at a later point).

hmm...but i dont want medical schools/my supervisors to know every intimate deal in my life, personal and private. there will always be things they dont know about me; how much info do they want to know? it is my obligation to truthfully disclose all REQUESTED information on applications. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Geebeejay]

It's good to know that classism is alive and well in the hearts of American medical school admissions officers. I wouldn't be any more or less impressed if a man came from a state college versus some "elite" Ivy. It has nothing to do with being a good doctor. But I suppose you guys can brag to admissions officers at other schools if you snagged a Harvard kid! It doesn't matter how hard either worked or how intelligent they are, it's about BS prestige.

Don't hate the playa hate the game!

But seriously, LizzyM made this thread to answer questions honestly about how her admissions committee evaluates different types of applicants, and different traits in applicants. It doesn't reflect her values on a personal level. This wasn't designed to be an argument, so don't take it or make it about something more personal than simply an honest, candid and voluntary expression of information designed to inform us (as applicants) of the perspective of an experienced admissions committee member.

 

[Jepstein30]

What exactly would comprise a 'gap in education' that one would need to report on their application? No classes for an entire semester or reverting to part-time?

Along the same lines, what kind of transitions between full-time and part-time would raise eyebrows with adcoms?

Would a leave of absence from one's main university to engage in various activities combined with taking 2 classes at another university be an issue? Unfortunately, my school does not allow part time students and you can only take a full year off, not one semester. I'm considering taking that year off to strengthen my application by doing a few things I've been dying to do for awhile now but don't want to go a year without taking any classes, especially since I could use the opportunity to take some classes that aren't offered at my university (anatomy and physiology, for example).

Would this even be noticeable unless an adcom looks closely at it (you stated earlier that AMCAS groups semesters by hours rather than time periods)?

Thanks again!!

 

[aspiring20]

Yes, someone asked what a cookie cutter applicant who gets an interview at my school looks like. That's my answer.

And yes, almost all applicants who get an interview at my school get in somewhere. Among applicants with MCAT 36-38 and gpa 3.80-4.0, about 93% get admitted. I'm guessing that the other 7% gave off a bad vibe during the interview or had a serious institutional action or applied too late and to too few places.

do you mind elaborating on what kinds of institutional actions qualify as "serious"? I would assume that serious criminal convictions and IAs for academic dishonesty are the types of infractions that can derail even strong applicants.

but things like alcohol infraction, minor drug violations, and other minor IAs not involving integrity issues, substance abuses, harm to anyone, or any criminal misconduct wouldn't cause much of a dint to applicants?

 

[LizzyM]

hmm...but i dont want medical schools/my supervisors to know every intimate deal in my life, personal and private. there will always be things they dont know about me; how much info do they want to know? it is my obligation to truthfully disclose all REQUESTED information on applications. nothing more, nothing less.

"No surprises" refers to clinical situations. Tell your supervisor that you mistakenly removed a dressing that should not have been removed as soon as you discover your error -- don't wait until they see it for themselves the next morning.

Likewise, if schools have said that you are to report arrests, etc that occur after your AMCAS is submitted, then you had better make that information available as soon as you know it and not try to explain yourself after previously undisclosed information turns up on a criminal background check.

Are you really so obtuse?

 

[Parallax]

I have 4 years of credits at a CC (including prereqs) before transfer to a university (2 years). The CC coursework was hit or miss (repeats, withdraws, etc.), but the university coursework was a 4.0 (some science courses, valedictorian of major, awards, etc.). I am hoping to show a change/strong upward trend despite having 150+ credits.

Would you look at the CC years as freshman/sophomore and the university as junior/senior (i.e. broadly categorized by course level), or would you look at it by credits accrued?

Thanks again for all the advice you give around here.

 

[aspiring20]

"No surprises" refers to clinical situations. Tell your supervisor that you mistakenly removed a dressing that should not have been removed as soon as you discover your error -- don't wait until they see it for themselves the next morning.

Likewise, if schools have said that you are to report arrests, etc that occur after your AMCAS is submitted, then you had better make that information available as soon as you know it and not try to explain yourself after previously undisclosed information turns up on a criminal background check.

Are you really so obtuse?

i see your point, and i didn't intent to come off as obtuse. it's just that peoples' private lives should be respected, and that i don't like it when authority individuals (the government, police, adcoms, supervisors, etc.) invade our personal privacy.

 

[LizzyM]

What exactly would comprise a 'gap in education' that one would need to report on their application? No classes for an entire semester or reverting to part-time?

I'm not sure. I think that schools that really care might have a secondary prompt on the topic.

Along the same lines, what kind of transitions between full-time and part-time would raise eyebrows with adcoms?

Would a leave of absence from one's main university to engage in various activities combined with taking 2 classes at another university be an issue? Unfortunately, my school does not allow part time students and you can only take a full year off, not one semester. I'm considering taking that year off to strengthen my application by doing a few things I've been dying to do for awhile now but don't want to go a year without taking any classes, especially since I could use the opportunity to take some classes that aren't offered at my university (anatomy and physiology, for example).

Would this even be noticeable unless an adcom looks closely at it (you stated earlier that AMCAS groups semesters by hours rather than time periods)?

Thanks again!!

you should show the activities in your experience section and you could toss in the comment that you took a leave of absence from your college to engage in this activity. Then anyone who cares would see that you were taking a couple of classes at the same time. No big deal.

 

[LizzyM]

do you mind elaborating on what kinds of institutional actions qualify as "serious"? I would assume that serious criminal convictions and IAs for academic dishonesty are the types of infractions that can derail even strong applicants.

but things like alcohol infraction, minor drug violations, and other minor IAs not involving integrity issues, substance abuses, harm to anyone, or any criminal misconduct wouldn't cause much of a dint to applicants?

Cheating, stealing, sex crimes would be classified as serious.

Having booze or pot in your dorm room would not be a big deal. Cooking meth in your dorm room might be a different story.

 

[LizzyM]

I have 4 years of credits at a CC (including prereqs) before transfer to a university (2 years). The CC coursework was hit or miss (repeats, withdraws, etc.), but the university coursework was a 4.0 (some science courses, valedictorian of major, awards, etc.). I am hoping to show a change/strong upward trend despite having 150+ credits.

Would you look at the CC years as freshman/sophomore and the university as junior/senior (i.e. broadly categorized by course level), or would you look at it by credits accrued?

Thanks again for all the advice you give around here.

AMCAS specifies the first 30 credits or so as year 1, the next 30 or so as year 2, the next 30 or so as year 3 and the remainder as year 4.

 

[Jepstein30]

I'm not sure. I think that schools that really care might have a secondary prompt on the topic.



you should show the activities in your experience section and you could toss in the comment that you took a leave of absence from your college to engage in this activity. Then anyone who cares would see that you were taking a couple of classes at the same time. No big deal.

Thanks!

Now just to make the tough decision as to whether or not the year off and delaying 'life' for a year is worth it! I was worried it would hurt my application so I haven't given it much thought.

One other related question: I would be taking these classes as a non-matriculated student and the university I'd be taking them at state that these classes would be marked as not contributing to one's GPA. Do you know how AMCAS or adcoms view these classes? I'm assuming that as long as they see a letter grade, they view it as a normal class even if my home or the other university doesn't recognize them

 

[Bluto385]

Are you really so obtuse?

Every time I hear that word in a sentence, it brings back good ol' Warden Norton in Shawshank...

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks!

Now just to make the tough decision as to whether or not the year off and delaying 'life' for a year is worth it! I was worried it would hurt my application so I haven't given it much thought.

One other related question: I would be taking these classes as a non-matriculated student and the university I'd be taking them at state that these classes would be marked as not contributing to one's GPA. Do you know how AMCAS or adcoms view these classes? I'm assuming that as long as they see a letter grade, they view it as a normal class even if my home or the other university doesn't recognize them.

That's correct.

 

[aspiring20]

Every time I hear that word in a sentence, it brings back good ol' Warden Norton in Shawshank...

haha same here! just watched the movie two nights ago for the 3rd time.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

First off, thank you very much LizzyM! You're the best...

As far as the URM advantage goes, do applicants only get pooled into a specific race if that is the only race they check off? Or will checking off white and another race, Hispanic for example, lead to any kind of advantage for an applicant that is half and half?

 

[amad01]

OK, so a 3.8 at Harvard and a 3.8 at Bridgewater State College are pretty much equivalent? Yale and University of New Haven are the same?

Schools have reputations. One reputation is for selectivity in admissions. The very selective schools will have very high performing students while a school with less selectivity may admit students who are less impressive in terms of academic horsepower. Are we more impressed with someone who manages a A in a class of freshmen who have an average SAT score of 2200 or one where the averge SAT was 1500?

MCAT is not a standardized exam by the strict definition. It is a measure of performance on a single day. It has biases. A 8 14 14 is not the same as a 12 12 12.

Is SAT not also a measure of performance on a single day? Did you just give me an example of the importance of a standardized exam? Do they not both serve the same purpose in evaluating students?

If both students with A's in your scenario got the same MCAT score, how could one be favored over the other because of his school's reputation? If the student who got the A at the school with the higher reputation "worked harder for it" (due to higher difficulty, higher reputation, better classmates, whatever), he would've scored higher than the other student from XYZ State on the same exam. Yet they both scored the same on the same exam. If UG with higher reputation truly is better or more rigorous than random UG, then considering 3.8 Harvard vs 3.8 XYZ state, the Harvard student should be expected to have a higher MCAT than the XYZ State student, because the 3.8 at Harvard was harder to get. If the 3.8 at Harvard was more difficult, a higher test score should be expected. If both students got the same score on the same test, then without extensive investigation you cannot possibly conclude that UGx was more rigorous or served a better education than UGy, regardless of reputation or prestige.

Yes, overall Yale is a better school than Montana State. It is more prestigious and has a higher reputation. But when it comes down to comparing single students from both institutions, each having exactly the same stats, the only difference is the Yale student is probably in a lot of debt, while the Montana State student probably isn't. They both received the same education with the same level of rigor, because they both walked out the door with the same level of knowledge. If the Yale student had received better/more, he/she would've scored better on the same test that the Montana State student took.

Is this not the purpose of the MCAT? How can one 36 be better than another 36 because of where the student went to school? Are we not more concerned about WHAT the student learns over WHERE the student learned it?

How can you expect a 3.8 XYZ UG to have to score 40+ on the same test that 3.8 Harvard got a 36 in order to be on the same ground? If they both got 36, then they are the same. How do you know the student from XYZ couldn't have gotten into Harvard, but simply didn't want to dig a whole of debt at 18? And in the end, if he scores the same as the Harvard student on the same test, show me why he is less capable of becoming a successful physician and why he is less competitive?

 

[Anathema]

Experiences should contribute to personal growth. I'm not sure I understand the question.

I guess I was referring to gap year experiences. There's been alot of conflicting ideas of what a person should do. Some people have brought up extracurriculars that they're really devoted to but have no clinical relevance. These people have been told that if they can't tie it to the admissions process then it's not worth it while others have said to go for it if it leads to personal growth. I was wondering on who would be looked upon more favorably:

A person who went on some super hike across the U.S. and volunteered minimally on the side vs a person that just went crazy with hospital volunteering hours and other cliche clinical experiences.

 

[LizzyM]

First off, thank you very much LizzyM! You're the best...

As far as the URM advantage goes, do applicants only get pooled into a specific race if that is the only race they check off? Or will checking off white and another race, Hispanic for example, lead to any kind of advantage for an applicant that is half and half?

Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. That said, if a person self-identifies as both Hispanic white and non-Hispanic White (e.g. Russian and mainland Puerto Rican), the person will be considered URM, at least at my school.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. That said, if a person self-identifies as both Hispanic white and non-Hispanic White (e.g. Russian and mainland Puerto Rican), the person will be considered URM, at least at my school.

Sorry, didn't mean to get technical with race vs. ethnicity. I am half white and half Puerto Rican and feel I culturally fit with both, so checking off only one for some stupid advantage seems disingenuous, so checking both is the plan. Wasn't sure any advantage would be had because of it.

 

[Plue00]

It's good to know that classism is alive and well in the hearts of American medical school admissions officers. I wouldn't be any more or less impressed if a man came from a state college versus some "elite" Ivy.

Just because someone went to en elite school doesn't mean that they are rich. Some of my friends could ONLY afford to go to elite schools because they tend to give amazing financial aid. Let's not forget how much harder it is at a top school versus a random unknown school.

 

[Si Se Puede]

Is SAT not also a measure of performance on a single day? If the student who got the A at the school with the higher reputation "worked harder for it" (due to higher difficulty, higher reputation, better classmates, whatever), he would've scored higher than the other student from XYZ State on the same exam. Yet they both scored the same on the same exam. If UG with higher reputation truly is better or more rigorous than random UG, then considering 3.8 Harvard vs 3.8 XYZ state, the Harvard student should be expected to have a higher MCAT than the XYZ State student, because the 3.8 at Harvard was harder to get. If the 3.8 at Harvard was more difficult, a higher test score should be expected. If both students got the same score on the same test, then without extensive investigation you cannot possibly conclude that UGx was more rigorous or served a better education than UGy, regardless of reputation or prestige.

How can you expect a 3.8 XYZ UG to have to score 40+ on the same test that 3.8 Harvard got a 36 in order to be on the same ground? If they both got 36, then they are the same. How do you know the student from XYZ couldn't have gotten into Harvard, but simply didn't want to dig a whole of debt at 18? And in the end, if he scores the same as the Harvard student on the same test, show me why he is less capable of becoming a successful physician and why he is less competitive?

There's way too much variability to even start answering "WHY." For one thing, one school may have very heavy homework which would severely cut the available time for extracurriculars. You get the drift...

The MCAT doesn't neccessarily test intelligence. It tests how well you can take a test, nothing more. Of course, there is some degree of correlation between intelligence and MCAT, but then again, there are so many factors that can affect an MCAT score, such as test location/day (imagine if your test center didn't have a mouse with a mousewheel!!), financial resources available for MCAT prep, amount of prep you actually did (some people prep a lot more than others), etc. So in the end, it really comes down to a tool used because it is one of the best possible tools that is available. If you really wanted to standardize it, then standarize test prep time/effort/test centers, etc.

The GPA, in my perspective, is really an indication of one's work ethic once you get past a certain intelligence level. The smartest person I have met had a horrible work ethic, skipped all his tests, and failed out. Of course, he's not that smart if he did that, but you get the point. That guy was brilliant by the way...always found crazy simplified solutions to everything 😀

Both GPAs are respectable, they are what they are. Do the best you can where you are and you should be fine 😉

 

[ijn]

Just because someone went to en elite school doesn't mean that they are rich. Some of my friends could ONLY afford to go to elite schools because they tend to give amazing financial aid. Let's not forget how much harder it is at a top school versus a random unknown school.

It's not harder at a top school versus a random school. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're being taught the same information that's being taught at the state school. The same thing is true of medical schools. There's huge differences in prestige between institutions, but in order to be licensed the LCGME makes sure we're all taught the same information.

Using a student's college prestige as a proxy for their intelligence is quite lazy on LizzyM's part. I understand why they do it though. There's huge bragging rights in being able to tell your bosses that X% of the class you recruited is from elite institutions. That has nothing to do with whether those students will make good doctors. The whole process has become so far removed from that goal but we have to keep up the pretense.

 

[487806]

It's not harder at a top school versus a random school. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're being taught the same information that's being taught at the state school. The same thing is true of medical schools. There's huge differences in prestige between institutions, but in order to be licensed the LCGME makes sure we're all taught the same information.

👍 Well said. Couldn't agree more. Now here comes a problem. Schools may teach the same thing, but their expectations are different. Top schools want a 3.9/36 and extraordinary EC's, while "low-tier" schools want a 3.6/32 and ordinary EC's. Shouldn't it be uniform?

 

[ur2l8]

👍 Well said. Couldn't agree more. Now here comes a problem. Schools may teach the same thing, but their expectations are different. Top schools want a 3.9/36 and extraordinary EC's, while "low-tier" schools want a 3.6/32 and ordinary EC's. Shouldn't it be uniform?

From what I've noticed, general difference is that school's teach same things mostly, maybe top tier with a more hands on/newer research oriented focus with regard to the sciences (perhaps also more class variety as compared to a small liberal arts school), just that tests for top tier institutions may be harder to get the same sort of grading spread for a lower tier institution with a 'less intelligent' student on average.

 

[LizzyM]

Is SAT not also a measure of performance on a single day? Did you just give me an example of the importance of a standardized exam? Do they not both serve the same purpose in evaluating students?

If both students with A's in your scenario got the same MCAT score, how could one be favored over the other because of his school's reputation? If the student who got the A at the school with the higher reputation "worked harder for it" (due to higher difficulty, higher reputation, better classmates, whatever), he would've scored higher than the other student from XYZ State on the same exam. Yet they both scored the same on the same exam. If UG with higher reputation truly is better or more rigorous than random UG, then considering 3.8 Harvard vs 3.8 XYZ state, the Harvard student should be expected to have a higher MCAT than the XYZ State student, because the 3.8 at Harvard was harder to get. If the 3.8 at Harvard was more difficult, a higher test score should be expected. If both students got the same score on the same test, then without extensive investigation you cannot possibly conclude that UGx was more rigorous or served a better education than UGy, regardless of reputation or prestige.

Yes, overall Yale is a better school than Montana State. It is more prestigious and has a higher reputation. But when it comes down to comparing single students from both institutions, each having exactly the same stats, the only difference is the Yale student is probably in a lot of debt, while the Montana State student probably isn't. They both received the same education with the same level of rigor, because they both walked out the door with the same level of knowledge. If the Yale student had received better/more, he/she would've scored better on the same test that the Montana State student took.

Is this not the purpose of the MCAT? How can one 36 be better than another 36 because of where the student went to school? Are we not more concerned about WHAT the student learns over WHERE the student learned it?

How can you expect a 3.8 XYZ UG to have to score 40+ on the same test that 3.8 Harvard got a 36 in order to be on the same ground? If they both got 36, then they are the same. How do you know the student from XYZ couldn't have gotten into Harvard, but simply didn't want to dig a whole of debt at 18? And in the end, if he scores the same as the Harvard student on the same test, show me why he is less capable of becoming a successful physician and why he is less competitive?

I'm tempted to say tl;dr

The MCAT is not standardized. Every student does not answer the same set of questions. There is some luck of the draw involved in terms of the reading passages assigned, and even the questions in the other sections.

Not everyone is a terrific test taker and some adcom members will put less stock in the MCAT than in gpa which measures performance over a longer period of time.

There is the perception that the top schools are very expensive but the fact is that the top schools give a fortune in scholarship money; some students from lower income families pay nothing or almost nothing to attend. We do see applicants who attended lower tier schools on a 100% scholarship and we do acknowledge that some people go to a less prestigious school due to a financial aid offer that they couldn't refuse.

A 3.6 at a high ranked school might include very challenging courses such as "Physiological Systems Analysis" while a lower ranked school might be offering courses such as "medical terminology". The pre-reqs are the same but everything else might be very, very different. Combining the gpa, rigor of the coursework and MCAT score, will put the student with the more rigorous courses/institution ahead of a student from a weaker school and/or a less rigorous curriculum.

 

[ijn]

👍 Well said. Couldn't agree more. Now here comes a problem. Schools may teach the same thing, but their expectations are different. Top schools want a 3.9/36 and extraordinary EC's, while "low-tier" schools want a 3.6/32 and ordinary EC's. Shouldn't it be uniform?

I don't think we have a right to impose uniform acceptance criteria. Schools should be free to do what they please. However I think that people should be called out on blatantly classist sentiments. Just because you went to Harvard does not make you a better future medical student than if you went to University of Wyoming. This kind of thinking in academia will never change, but it does go to show how far off we are from the goal of producing the best physicians possible. It's more about producing the best matriculant list possible.