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I apologize. I posted here because I wanted the opinion of an adcom member, not that of my peers. But I'll repost in another thread to get an overall opinion....sorry for the inconvenience....
Ask LizzyM (Almost) Anything 2012 edition
Started by LizzyM
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I apologize. I posted here because I wanted the opinion of an adcom member, not that of my peers. But I'll repost in another thread to get an overall opinion....sorry for the inconvenience....
Hey Lizzy, Not a question, but rather a comment, now that I'm going to be a medical student.
I just wanted to take a minute to thank you for your advice over the years. Your statements made it seem very likely that I would not gain acceptance to a medical school, and it had me terrified and anxious up until 10/15/2012.
When the actual application time came, I attended 11 interviews, 3 from top 10. And gained acceptance to a bunch of schools.
Not only was your advice an enormous amount of trash and narrow-minded, it turned out to be wildly inaccurate in the real world.
Now, I'd like to give you some advice: ST*U let this forum be, you've helped here as much as you are going to help; staying on here as a celeb to cut throat pre-med kids isn't helping anyone or anything but your own esteem. To be honest, deep down inside, I REALLY hope you're a troll.
<3
I just wanted to take a minute to thank you for your advice over the years. Your statements made it seem very likely that I would not gain acceptance to a medical school, and it had me terrified and anxious up until 10/15/2012.
When the actual application time came, I attended 11 interviews, 3 from top 10. And gained acceptance to a bunch of schools.
Not only was your advice an enormous amount of trash and narrow-minded, it turned out to be wildly inaccurate in the real world.
Now, I'd like to give you some advice: ST*U let this forum be, you've helped here as much as you are going to help; staying on here as a celeb to cut throat pre-med kids isn't helping anyone or anything but your own esteem. To be honest, deep down inside, I REALLY hope you're a troll.
<3
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Hahaha.
SDN celeb.👍
SDN celeb.👍
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Let me rephrase this post:
Some schools have a ranked waitlist so they go by the numbers. Others will try to use the waitlist to fill in demographic gaps that appear after the initial offers have been accepted or rejected. (e.g. class is usually 50 women and 50 men but there are 30 women and 62 men enrolled and 8 waitlist spots). If there are no gaps, a school may go with the very strongest or those who have recently shown interest.
this is where showing interest comes in. While we might think that you wouldn't throw over a top ranked school in Boston to attend a top ranked school in New York, maybe you have a personal reason why you would prefer that New York school over any other school.
However, as schools take this approach, the courteous applicant will be diligent in withdrawing from waitlist schools s/he has no desire to attend.
Communicate your interest in the school before May 15 and after May 15 and regularly until you get off the waitlist or decide to withdraw your application. I wouldn't recommed calling every day but communication every week or two can be effective unless the school is known for a ranked waitlist in which case all you can do is say a prayer that everyone already holding an offer at that school gets off the waitlist at their dream school and opens up a slot for you. 😍
In part it depends on the school having waitlist slots open. There are years when we've had 2 spots and years when we've had dozens. There are even lengendary situations (every dean of admission's nightmare) where there were too many offers accepted and some had to be offered a year's free tuition to join the following year's class.
It depends on the school having an opening for someoneone like you. As I said, a school might be looking to even out an imbalance in state residency, gender, undergrad institution, etc. Finally, schools want to fill the spaces by making the fewest number of phone calls. Schools are judged by selectivity so they'd like to make the fewest offers to fill the available seat while also maximizing their gpa/MCAT as they are also judged by that criterion. So, showing interest recently seems to suggest that you will be more likely to say "yes" than someone who has bene silent since interview day. So get out there and show some interest.
The MCAT is not assessed in a vacuum. If I have a Neurobiology major from Harvard with a 3.6 gpa and a 36 MCAT and I have a Health Studies major from Bridgewater State University with the same stats, are these two applicants identical?
On the surface, both have LizzyM scores of 72 which is good enough to have a very good chance of getting into medical school somewhere. I'd argue that some top schools might give a slight edge to the student who went to the more academically rigorous school and/or took the more academically rigorous course of study and that the effect might be an additional 0.5 on the LizzyM score which would be 72.5, just a slight edge.
On the other hand, Harvard applicants with Neurobiology majors may be a dime a dozen but a BSU student with an excellent MCAT may be a rare find and someone who would add diversity of experience to the class and might be admitted over the 15th Harvard student with similar credentials. In the end, the assessment is holistic and while we consider rigor, we also consider other things that are part of the application.
Some people would list that as one of the up to 15 experiences they want to tell the committee about. I know of other applicants who have left activities related to religion off of the application in the hope of decreasing the likelihood of discrimination on the basis of religion (yes, it is prohibited but someone who is going to be biased against you for that will find something legal to find fault with). On the other hand, you may have your application assigned to someone who is of your religious persuastion or who respects people who are involved in youth activites and it could work in your favor. It is totally up to you whether or not to include it.
I had a doctor who wore three piece suits in the office. I thought they looked too warm. Being of an age when I was warm regardless of what I was wearing, everything looked too warm.
Three piece suits are out of the ordinary on the interview trail. I wouldn't have an opinion one way or another if I interviewed someone dressed that way.
Ask each school what their policy is. I can't answer for them as each has its own policy.
For those that believe that all courses are the same and therefore equivalent, in college or even medical school, your deluding yourself.
Just within your own undergraduate school there may be several introductory courses that fulfill medical school prerequisites that are dramatically different. They have similar titles and course numbers, but one is for the math/engineering crowd and one is for the general crowd. My university had several courses like this. Dramatically different expectations and the tests would look nothing alike. Which do you think was easier? Which do you think I took?😉
I know colleagues that went to different medical schools where they were graded nearly exclusively with USMLE style multiple choice questions with bubble sheet scoring. I had some exams with essays, yes essays!, about different pathology, differential diagnosis with clinical reasoning, etc. It was a real bear sometimes. Their small groups were effectively pass/fail based on attendance. Not mine, not by a long shot. We all take the same licensing exam, but the classes and expectations are absolutely not the same. Required to cover the same basic material certainly, but there's a big difference between first order questions and k type questions. Though they helped me prepare for the written boards which were all k type. You have to know your stuff or you're hosed.
K-TYPE QUESTION
Which of the following are muscle relaxants: 1. Atracurium
2. Vecuronium 3. Mivacurium 4. Valium
A. Choices 1,2 and 3 are correct.
B. Choices 1 and 3 are correct.
C. Choices 2 and 4 are correct.
D. Only choice 4 is correct.
E. All choices are correct.
Just within your own undergraduate school there may be several introductory courses that fulfill medical school prerequisites that are dramatically different. They have similar titles and course numbers, but one is for the math/engineering crowd and one is for the general crowd. My university had several courses like this. Dramatically different expectations and the tests would look nothing alike. Which do you think was easier? Which do you think I took?😉
I know colleagues that went to different medical schools where they were graded nearly exclusively with USMLE style multiple choice questions with bubble sheet scoring. I had some exams with essays, yes essays!, about different pathology, differential diagnosis with clinical reasoning, etc. It was a real bear sometimes. Their small groups were effectively pass/fail based on attendance. Not mine, not by a long shot. We all take the same licensing exam, but the classes and expectations are absolutely not the same. Required to cover the same basic material certainly, but there's a big difference between first order questions and k type questions. Though they helped me prepare for the written boards which were all k type. You have to know your stuff or you're hosed.
K-TYPE QUESTION
Which of the following are muscle relaxants: 1. Atracurium
2. Vecuronium 3. Mivacurium 4. Valium
A. Choices 1,2 and 3 are correct.
B. Choices 1 and 3 are correct.
C. Choices 2 and 4 are correct.
D. Only choice 4 is correct.
E. All choices are correct.
Right back at ya. You are a SDN celeb in my book.
Thanks for the commentary about differences among and within schools. That is very informative.
Everyone makes mistakes. In this case, for the sake of the American people, let's hope that the mistakes were mine and not those of the bunch of schools that have accepted you.
LizzyM, the effect of a Neurobiology major at Harvard versus, say, a Physical Education major at Sprouted Onion College is a mere additional 0.5 points. Instead of killing yourself and wasting four precious years of your life at Harvard or MIT majoring in biomedical engineering, strategically, wouldn't it make more sense to major in something like Sports Management at an easy-A Broccoli Florets College while focusing on acing your MCAT?
Bumbl3b33, I would argue that the insight LizzyM gives us is incredibly valuable. There are admission consultants who know absolutely nothing but make a rich living off nonsensical advice, like one guy in Texas. LizzyM is doing all this for FREE. If I knew who she was, I would love to shake her hand and thank her in person, and I am pretty sure most of the SDN community feels the same way about her. Your opinion, Sir, is a definite outlier.
wtf man? get out of here
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A strong major at a rigorous college is going to open more doors than a vocational major at a no-name school, aside from whether it improves one's likelihood of being admitted to medical school. It also may mean more in your noggin' which has to count for something.
I could be wrong but if at some point one decides against medical school, more doors will open if you are holding a degree from Harvard in Neurobiology than a degree in Sports Management (almost said Sprout Management
) from Broccoli Florets College.
What an ass. That is all.
Most med schools don't require stats although having some familiarity with the concepts is important and they wll be covered as they pertain to interpretation of biomedical literature and evidence based practice of medicine in the medical school curriculum.
A retake isn't going to greatly improve your gpa except at DO schools. Showing that you can do well on the third try isn't really great evidence that you can handle medical school curriculum but it is better than a sharp stick in the eye, as my grandfather would say.
Doing poorly the third time around would be horrible.
You need to decide if you want to take the chance of doing poorly and the time and effort of taking the course at all.
Thank you. I'd rather focus on doing well in pre reqs.
I think you are referring to your VR score and how every says its too low. I think the problem is that people always want to know how low is too low. Well, that cannot be answered because everyone is in a different situation. You had a lot of things going for your application so you were successful despite one low score. Other people who do not have all of the good ECs, GPA and other things may be significantly hurt by 7 on VR.
LizzyM is giving advices based on the average accepted applicant. The main point is to look at how schools accept students in the past and use that as a guide. No where does she state that if you have score X or GPA Y, you will not get an acceptance. She simply states that your best shot is going to be at schools where your X and Y are at or above the schools X and Y.
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Didn't you rudely shun our advice and attacked us for being helpful here?
While the above post is obviously intended to insult LizzyM and flame us, I wouldn't be enraged. Just report his post and carry on.
You have an attitude problem.
No I plan to take the traditional, non-gap year route. But I meant assuming all other things being equal would ADCOMs really care? I plan on taking Anat/Phys instead my junior year because the MCAT barely has any Orgo 2 questions anyways. Plus many med schools allow a semester of biochem over Orgo 2, but I still plan on taking Orgo.
He/she is exactly the type of person I would NOT want to go to medical school with. Nonetheless, lets not feed the troll and forget him/her.
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LizzyM,
- There is a study somewhere in the mountain of papers on my desk that shows that students who attended multiple colleges were not as successful when it came to medical school admission as students who attended a single college. Based on the acceptance rates, the authors inferred (incorrectly, if I may be forgiven for saying so) that med school adcoms frown on applicants who attend multiple colleges. However, their research also showed that students who attended multiple colleges had significantly lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs. The authors failed to control for MCAT and GPA when they inferred that med schools don't seem to like applicants who attended multiple colleges. They looked merely at acceptance rates. Had they controlled for MCAT and GPA, they may have found there was no difference in the acceptance rates. I wish I could find the paper but the mountain of papers in front of me is crazy high. In any event, I would like your take on this as an adcom because I have already taken classes at Stanford, Ohio State, INSEAD in France, at my own community college, Harvard and elsewhere. Just like some people like to go to various conferences, I just like to take interesting classes at various universities especially over the Maymester/January/summer semesters and spend my time exploring the area - it's just a hobby. For example, it is great to go to Colorado, attend a college over the Jan session and also explore the college town, visit local touristy spots, sample local cuisine and also learn how to ski at a Colorado ski resort. But I hope I won't be penalized for this hobby by medical schools.
- People constantly tell me Organic Chemistry is insanely difficult. How much faith should I put into this assessment? Because they also told me Calculus and Statistics at Stanford are insanely hard and I breezed through and got an A in both with minimal effort while other students limped along. On the other hand, a History class at Harvard was supposed to be an easy A according to many students, but I found the professor dry, boring, very annoying, judgmental, prejudiced, arrogant and despite all the work I put in I could manage barely a B. I almost failed in that class. I haven't taken any science prerequisite yet - except for Genetics at Stanford - and I was curious if there are people who do find Organic Chemistry super-easy.
- There is a study somewhere in the mountain of papers on my desk that shows that students who attended multiple colleges were not as successful when it came to medical school admission as students who attended a single college. Based on the acceptance rates, the authors inferred (incorrectly, if I may be forgiven for saying so) that med school adcoms frown on applicants who attend multiple colleges. However, their research also showed that students who attended multiple colleges had significantly lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs. The authors failed to control for MCAT and GPA when they inferred that med schools don't seem to like applicants who attended multiple colleges. They looked merely at acceptance rates. Had they controlled for MCAT and GPA, they may have found there was no difference in the acceptance rates. I wish I could find the paper but the mountain of papers in front of me is crazy high. In any event, I would like your take on this as an adcom because I have already taken classes at Stanford, Ohio State, INSEAD in France, at my own community college, Harvard and elsewhere. Just like some people like to go to various conferences, I just like to take interesting classes at various universities especially over the Maymester/January/summer semesters and spend my time exploring the area - it's just a hobby. For example, it is great to go to Colorado, attend a college over the Jan session and also explore the college town, visit local touristy spots, sample local cuisine and also learn how to ski at a Colorado ski resort. But I hope I won't be penalized for this hobby by medical schools.
- People constantly tell me Organic Chemistry is insanely difficult. How much faith should I put into this assessment? Because they also told me Calculus and Statistics at Stanford are insanely hard and I breezed through and got an A in both with minimal effort while other students limped along. On the other hand, a History class at Harvard was supposed to be an easy A according to many students, but I found the professor dry, boring, very annoying, judgmental, prejudiced, arrogant and despite all the work I put in I could manage barely a B. I almost failed in that class. I haven't taken any science prerequisite yet - except for Genetics at Stanford - and I was curious if there are people who do find Organic Chemistry super-easy.
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Hi, I am 22 and I did horrible during my UG - 3.1 cgpa and 2.7-2.8 sgpa due to family problems. I got into a biomedical sciences program and it starts this coming January. Assuming I ace all the classes this semester and do well on the MCAT, should I apply this summer or wait until next summer when the program is over?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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#712, or am I misinterpreting what you said?
I was like a squirrel looking for a buried nut trying to find this citation but I did it!
https://www.aamc.org/download/30369...onshipamongundergraduateeducationalpathwa.pdf
I see nothing in this paper on gpa. There is nothing about liking or not liking applicants who went to multiple colleges. There is an almost linear relationship between number of transcripts submitted and MCAT score (drop of 0.5 points for each additional transcript up to 5). There is a graded relationship between average MCAT score by category and proportion admitted to medical school where the categories are "number of transcripts submitted". I don't know anyone who would be shocked to know that a group of applicants with higher average MCATs are more likely to be admitted to medical school than a group of applicants with lower average MCAT scores.
All this paper is saying is that there are groups of people who are more likely than average to get admitted and groups that are less likely than average to get admitted. Furthermore, I think that AAMC is saying, "If you are going to be stubborn about not taking anyone who has attended community college, you may be missing out on some talented URM as they are more likely than others to attend these schools.
I found it easy but I first covered it in HS when I was 16. It does seem to be the course most likely to hurt an otherwise good gpa on a population-basis but as always, YMMV.
PM me when you have your semester grades and MCAT score. Until then this is a hypothetical question.
I'm pretty sure she simply said that those students at top universities with solid gpa's are "respected" more to a certain degree when it comes to admissions. She never said that those from state or no name schools would be looked over. On the contrary she said that as far as her school goes every application gets a pair of eyes. Which is more than can be said for many other schools IMO.
I'm not sure why UG institution is a point of debate. I go to a state school that's respected in my region of the country and that is not very well ranked. If your not from the south then you've never heard of it for the most part and i feel that it has impacted my admissions process to a certain degree even though I've been extremely fortunate to have what I consider a great cycle and I think of myself as very lucky. I don't think it's very far fetched at all to say that a 4.0 at a top 20 school does deserve more respect than those schools ranking much lower. I agree with LizzyM cudos to her for not beating around the bush.
OK, so this is why some people think that the verbal reasoning section of the MCAT is pretty important.
The passage above refers to "lower tier undergraduate" schools and notes that while their students and graduates are not our typical candidates, some do get interviews if they are exceptional in some way. The follow-up question interpretes this to mean that lower tier schools are screened out (which to me means that they will not get looked at pre-interview and thus not even get an interview -- not what I said) and asks if this means that "your school does not take anyone from public undergrads like Berkeley."
I don't know what alternate universe this is where Berkeley is synonymous with "low tier undergrad".
Maybe this thread should have a warning for anyone with a verbal score less than 8.
And another thing... do you ever wonder if some arrogant canoes tone it down on interview day because I've got them so worried that they won't get in anywhere and that they are out of their league. When the accomplish their goal, their true colors emerge....
Hey LizzyM,
Would spending an entire summer studying for the MCAT (self-studying/taking MCAT classes) be looked down upon? If I wanted to study the MCAT starting from June and then take the exam around August, would it be more prudent for me to just dedicate all my time and energy towards the MCAT, or should I try to do something else on the side? What else do people normally do while they are concurrently studying for the MCAT during the summer? What would you recommend?
Thanks!
Would spending an entire summer studying for the MCAT (self-studying/taking MCAT classes) be looked down upon? If I wanted to study the MCAT starting from June and then take the exam around August, would it be more prudent for me to just dedicate all my time and energy towards the MCAT, or should I try to do something else on the side? What else do people normally do while they are concurrently studying for the MCAT during the summer? What would you recommend?
Thanks!
I see more people doing this. The downside is that you may get your application in a bit later than those who take the MCAT in the Spring. The up-side is that it is less noticable that you did nothing but study all summer if you submit in May with a "pending" MCAT and a solid summer of studying can help if it is done right (see the MCAT thread for good tips). Just apply to one school and add more schools after your scores come in.
Thanks again!
How is a C- in physics 2(algebra based) viewed by adcoms? I retook it this fall but I'm scared my new grade (A+) won't be considered. Also, if I were to reapply, what should I do? I'm currently completing my second BS in Psychology and my gpa should be a lot better. Maybe I should retake my MCAT?
How is a C- in physics 2(algebra based) viewed by adcoms? I retook it this fall but I'm scared my new grade (A+) won't be considered. Also, if I were to reapply, what should I do? I'm currently completing my second BS in Psychology and my gpa should be a lot better. Maybe I should retake my MCAT?
Oh sorry, I was unclear in my previous post. I will not be applying for medical school while studying for the MCAT. I plan on taking the MCAT this summer, and then applying for med school during the next summer. But I get the feeling that if I were to do this, spending the entire summer studying for the MCAT might not be the best idea. If this were the case, what do people usually do/what would you recommend doing?
Thanks!
hey LizzyM!!! thanks for doing this agian! Here are my questions:
1. you said that the "ideal applicant" has tutoring for kids in high school. How do adcoms view tutoring college students? im currently a math tutor for college alg And calc 1 & 2
2. As you said college name is important, esp. in top schools. Does this mean that if one has a high GPA from a less prestigious school, a high MCAT can make up for it? or is it that no matter what the persons credentials, the school's name would negatively be taken into account due to desire by adcoms of "brand name schools"?
3. when is the best time to take the MCAT? kinda a stupid question, but like what date would allow for the most study time & still early verification?
4. when you retire, will you release the name of the medical school you're stationed at? the curiosity is killing me! 😛
1. you said that the "ideal applicant" has tutoring for kids in high school. How do adcoms view tutoring college students? im currently a math tutor for college alg And calc 1 & 2
2. As you said college name is important, esp. in top schools. Does this mean that if one has a high GPA from a less prestigious school, a high MCAT can make up for it? or is it that no matter what the persons credentials, the school's name would negatively be taken into account due to desire by adcoms of "brand name schools"?
3. when is the best time to take the MCAT? kinda a stupid question, but like what date would allow for the most study time & still early verification?
4. when you retire, will you release the name of the medical school you're stationed at? the curiosity is killing me! 😛
From the Huffington Post last year:
Unemployment among people who hold at least a bachelor's is only 4.3 percent, compared with the national average rate of 9.1 percent.
For people with associate degrees, or incomplete coursework toward a bachelor's, unemployment rises to 8.3 percent. And among those who only have a high school degree, unemployment is slightly higher than the national rate, at 9.3 percent.
For people with associate degrees, or incomplete coursework toward a bachelor's, unemployment rises to 8.3 percent. And among those who only have a high school degree, unemployment is slightly higher than the national rate, at 9.3 percent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/class-2011-hiring_n_942571.html
The class of 2011 had a much easier time than the class of 2010 or 2009.
Maybe you should toast the new year with a glass of something bubbly and be thankful for the nine interview invitations you have. If you don't have a single offer by May 15, think about how you can make your application better. Frankly, I'll be shocked if you don't have an offer by mid-May.
Do something for at least 30 hours per week whether it is a job or a research gig or a volunteer position. Follow the plan to study 1-2 hours per day every day except for the day of the week you take a practice test. Take the practice test under standard test conditions and don't skip the writing section. Study the structure of the test as well as the material being tested so you can say "I see what you did there" to the question writer when you finally understand why a specific choice is the correct one.
The activity will be your summer activity listed on the AMCAS along with any little activities you engage in like 2 hrs/wk in a service organization or as a t-ball coach or whatever.
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Just for the sake of example, I did not do anything except volunteer and do training for a sport while I studied MCAT. I do not feel it has had a negative impact on my application, and it has never come up in interviews
I believe that you are mistaken. I would never say that it is ideal. I might have said it is a common activity among typical applicants who get interviews.
Tutoring college students is pretty common, too. It is hard to tell if it is for pay or a free service so applicants don't generally get kudos for altruism if they tutor other college students. That said, a school that values the ability to be a small group leader/teacher in PBL, etc might value college tutors.
You are asking a hypothetical, I think. Regardless of where you went to school, you should do your best in the classroom and on the MCAT. There is nothing else you can do.
I have no idea. It used to be offered in April and August only and April before the application cycle opened was the ideal time. Now, I really don't know.
God willing, you'll be an attending by then and you really won't care.
It's being dropped in January? I didn't know that! The point is, make the practice test as close to the real thing as you can. It isn't the real thing if you skip a section that you will see on "The Day".
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure this January will be the first time that there is no writing section. In its place there will be a non graded, optional section, similar to what they plan to add over the next couple years.
I don't know why I even know that. Hopefully, I will not be taking that test ever again. 😀
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