Away rotations, Residency Interviews, and the ERAS Timeline: The Coalition's Recommendations

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AnatomyGrey12

The organizations in this coalition include: AACOM, AAMC, ACCME, ACGME, AMA, AOGME, AOA, CMSS (OPDA), ECFMG, FSMB, LCME, NBME, and NBOME.

The documents that contain their recommendations can be found here:

www.aacom.org

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So it's "discouraged". Will people follow this? I mean, how is this gonna be enforced. I expected a more YES/NO answer.
 
Prehealth1011 said:
So it's "discouraged". Will people follow this? I mean, how is this gonna be enforced. I expected a more YES/NO answer.
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They can't simply give a yes/no answer to this. So many hospitals, all over the country. It can't be a one size fits all. It seems to me that if you can secure an away rotation you should be good to go. I.e., they're letting individual hospitals make the final say.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
students-residents.aamc.org

2026 ERAS® Residency Timeline

Review a timeline for applying for residency positions using ERAS for the 2023 application season.
students-residents.aamc.org students-residents.aamc.org

ERAS has officially been moved back to October 21st
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But you can submit apps on 9/1. So what happens to your apps when you send them out on 9/1 but no program can look at them until 10/21? Is it still a rolling application, where programs will first see the apps that were submitted first,
 
Espressso said:
But you can submit apps on 9/1. So what happens to your apps when you send them out on 9/1 but no program can look at them until 10/21? Is it still a rolling application, where programs will first see the apps that were submitted first,
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I highly doubt it.

Espressso said:
They can't simply give a yes/no answer to this. So many hospitals, all over the country. It can't be a one size fits all. It seems to me that if you can secure an away rotation you should be good to go. I.e., they're letting individual hospitals make the final say.
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It appears they are approaching the no aways thing from the medical school standpoint instead of the residency program side. Because auditions are functionally a part of medical school they can enforce this by having no school's allow audition rotations. It will be interesting to see how DO schools handle this.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I highly doubt it.



It appears they are approaching the no aways thing from the medical school standpoint instead of the residency program side. Because auditions are functionally a part of medical school they can enforce this by having no school's allow audition rotations. It will be interesting to see how DO schools handle this.
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How was the app timeline set up before? Excuse my ignorance on the details. I thought normally we submit apps before programs see them, then on 9/14 or whatever date it was, programs start seeing the ones that were submitted first.
 
Espressso said:
How was the app timeline set up before? Excuse my ignorance on the details. I thought normally we submit apps before programs see them, then on 9/14 or whatever date it was, programs start seeing the ones that were submitted first.
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Submit the first day they are open, then programs typically started looking the day MSPE's were sent out.

I don't think they can see when they were submitted in that first period. I think they just open ERAS and see a pile of apps sitting there. I could be wrong though. I don't know why they would move the application date back to only have people still be punished for not having apps in on September 1st.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Submit the first day they are open, then programs typically started looking the day MSPE's were sent out.

I don't think they can see when they were submitted in that first period. I think they just open ERAS and see a pile of apps sitting there. I could be wrong though. I don't know why they would move the application date back to only have people still be punished for not having apps in on September 1st.
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Maybe the ERAS push back was for the programs more than the students? Potentially giving them more time prior to going through apps
 
Would this give those schools with home programs an advantage?
 
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frenchyn said:
So whether I submit 9/1 or 10/20 won’t hurt my chance? Aka is it a rolling review of application like med school
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I don't see how it would hurt you. Because there is no way they would move the date programs can see apps by a month, only to move UP the date applicants can submit, and then have people who didn't apply super early get punished for it. It would defy the entire reasoning for moving it back.
 
So just to confirm about previous cycles. The real submission date on the programs POV is 9/15 but for the students POV it was 9/1. So if you had submitted between 9/1 and 9/14, it would still registered as submitted 9/15 when ERAS opens for programs POV.

so the same thing is happening here where from the programs POV, it opens 10/21 but we can submit it as early as 9/1 if we want. It’s just that from 9/1 to 10/20, it all gets lumped in the 10/21 category
 
Recommendation 1 states that students be discouraged from away rotations with an exception for:

-Learners who have a specialty interest and do not have access to a clinical experience with a residency program in that specialty in their school’s system.

-Learners for whom an away rotation is required for graduation or accreditation requirements.

So, this will probably apply to many, if not all DO schools. My school requires away rotations however you can do them in the city at the university hospitals.


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AlteredScale said:
Recommendation 1 states that students be discouraged from away rotations with an exception for:

-Learners who have a specialty interest and do not have access to a clinical experience with a residency program in that specialty in their school’s system.

-Learners for whom an away rotation is required for graduation or accreditation requirements.

So, this will probably apply to many, if not all DO schools. My school requires away rotations however you can do them in the city at the university hospitals.


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What do you see the school doing for the large portion of students not in the city where the school is? I’d hope they’d let us still find a few aways


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boolin_1 said:
So just to confirm about previous cycles. The real submission date on the programs POV is 9/15 but for the students POV it was 9/1. So if you had submitted between 9/1 and 9/14, it would still registered as submitted 9/15 when ERAS opens for programs POV.

so the same thing is happening here where from the programs POV, it opens 10/21 but we can submit it as early as 9/1 if we want. It’s just that from 9/1 to 10/20, it all gets lumped in the 10/21 category
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You are correct. Know that also October 1st for this last cycle was when the programs could see your MSPE. Many programs don’t offer interviews until they have the MSPE.

For those programs, the delay is really only less than 3 weeks from the previous cycle.

On Sept 15, I started getting interviews all throughout until October. Once October 1st hits for the first couple of weeks, you'll get more since MSPE got released. In my experience, the more competitive programs will wait for the MSPE to be released before granting an interview. This is all program dependent, and some will interview right away based on board scores, regional alone, etc (There's no way they could've read my PS and ERAS app that quickly given they get thousands of applications.) N=1 in my case.

The biggest lesson I learned throughout this past cycle is to please please please get your Level 2 PE in ASAP (before October 21.) Although this pandemic has affected a lot of testing dates, and PD's are generally understanding, I still would not take the risk. If you can't, so be it and you tried your best. I know by not having my score in before Oct 1st this past cycle I have lost a couple of interviews that way. It won't be the end of the world by not having the board scores in, but nobody wants to take that risk in case a program you want happens to want a PE score before granting interviews.
 
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So if I don't really want to do any aways will I be fine this cycle? My board scores are above average for my specialty and I'll have fine letters from the community anesthesiologists at my house. Do I really need to do an away at a residency program to check that box?
 
rhodesfb17 said:
So if I don't really want to do any aways will I be fine this cycle? My board scores are above average for my specialty and I'll have fine letters from the community anesthesiologists at my house. Do I really need to do an away at a residency program to check that box?
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For anesthesia probably not necessary with a decent app


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mathnerd88 said:
You are correct. Know that also October 1st for this last cycle was when the programs could see your MSPE. Many programs don’t offer interviews until they have the MSPE.

For those programs, the delay is really only less than 3 weeks from the previous cycle.

On Sept 15, I started getting interviews all throughout until October. Once October 1st hits for the first couple of weeks, you'll get more since MSPE got released. In my experience, the more competitive programs will wait for the MSPE to be released before granting an interview. This is all program dependent, and some will interview right away based on board scores, regional alone, etc (There's no way they could've read my PS and ERAS app that quickly given they get thousands of applications.) N=1 in my case.

The biggest lesson I learned throughout this past cycle is to please please please get your Level 2 PE in ASAP (before October 21.) Although this pandemic has affected a lot of testing dates, and PD's are generally understanding, I still would not take the risk. If you can't, so be it and you tried your best. I know by not having my score in before Oct 1st this past cycle I have lost a couple of interviews that way. It won't be the end of the world by not having the board scores in, but nobody wants to take that risk in case a program you want happens to want a PE score before granting interviews.
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I’d imagine that not having the PE completed this year by October won’t necessarily be as detrimental due to the sheer volume of PEs that got canceled this year. Many applicants take it in the spring and these were all pushed to fall dates.
 
Hold up a sec...
Who actually thinks schools will allow us to do audition rotations? I am convinced that it's highly likely my school will be allowing students back on rotation anytime before September. All that being said, I'm planning on moving Step 2 and Level 2 to September given I doubt we will be returning to rotations before 2021 in all honesty. How are things at all of y'all's schools? I'd love to know how everyone is feeling about this thing.
 
mathnerd88 said:
The biggest lesson I learned throughout this past cycle is to please please please get your Level 2 PE in ASAP (before October 21.) Although this pandemic has affected a lot of testing dates, and PD's are generally understanding, I still would not take the risk. If you can't, so be it and you tried your best. I know by not having my score in before Oct 1st this past cycle I have lost a couple of interviews that way. It won't be the end of the world by not having the board scores in, but nobody wants to take that risk in case a program you want happens to want a PE score before granting interviews.
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Most people just won't have it in time, I don't know what else to tell you. This cycle is nothing like the one you went through.

There is currently a MASSIVE backlog of MD students waiting to take CS, which won't be given until after July according to the most recent update. Virtual CS or not, most of those applicants won't have it either. According to my school there is a significant chance PE gets bumped back even more from June 1. To have Level 1 PE back in time for October 21st you would need to have taken it by August 27th in the best case scenario (8-10 weeks for results, this assumes 8 on the dot). Very few people take it in the fall and winter of M3, so most test takers have yet to take it.

Not happening for most applicants.
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
Hold up a sec...
Who actually thinks schools will allow us to do audition rotations? I am convinced that it's highly likely my school will be allowing students back on rotation anytime before September. All that being said, I'm planning on moving Step 2 and Level 2 to September given I doubt we will be returning to rotations before 2021 in all honesty. How are things at all of y'all's schools? I'd love to know how everyone is feeling about this thing.
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Not sure where you go to school, but my school has zero plans to keep us off rotations past June. I don’t see any school outside of maybe NY, and even then I doubt it, keeping students off rotations until the new year. What are you supposed to do aquifer for 8 months? Not happening and I honestly don’t know why you’d want it to


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TheaterOfTheme said:
Hold up a sec...
Who actually thinks schools will allow us to do audition rotations? I am convinced that it's highly likely my school will be allowing students back on rotation anytime before September. All that being said, I'm planning on moving Step 2 and Level 2 to September given I doubt we will be returning to rotations before 2021 in all honesty. How are things at all of y'all's schools? I'd love to know how everyone is feeling about this thing.
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Yeah I don't think no auditions = no rotations. As of now we are planning to go back in June, although that could change.
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
Not sure where you go to school, but my school has zero plans to keep us off rotations past June. I don’t see any school outside of maybe NY, and even then I doubt it, keeping students off rotations until the new year. What are you supposed to do aquifer for 8 months? Not happening and I honestly don’t know why you’d want it to


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I'm in CA. Interesting that's the vibe you're getting. No need to assume what "I want to happen". I'm simply asking a realistic question that it seems many are not considering. Clearly no one wants this situation. But I can definitely see, once everything goes back to normal, COVID-19 cases go back up and what do you know, it's aquifer for all of fourth year. I'd suppose it depends on location a lot. Everything I've heard from my school sounds like September is the earliest they will allow us back.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yeah I don't think no auditions = no rotations. As of now we are planning to go back in June, although that could change.
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Totally--but as DO schools it's highly difficult to assure that the hundreds of sites we are rotating at are following proper protective protocols. It's my impression this is a huge liability situation for my school. I know of an MD school in CA that is back on rotations--and I can see others doing the same if they have a home hospital.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Most people just won't have it in time, I don't know what else to tell you. This cycle is nothing like the one you went through.

There is currently a MASSIVE backlog of MD students waiting to take CS, which won't be given until after July according to the most recent update. Virtual CS or not, most of those applicants won't have it either. According to my school there is a significant chance PE gets bumped back even more from June 1. To have Level 1 PE back in time for October 21st you would need to have taken it by August 27th in the best case scenario (8-10 weeks for results, this assumes 8 on the dot). Very few people take it in the fall and winter of M3, so most test takers have yet to take it.

Not happening for most applicants.
Click to expand...


No idea, because I'm getting emails directly from my dean saying that only 21 of our students in class of 2021 have the PE scheduled after August 31st for the PE, which accounts for about 12-13% of our class and meaning that they won't get their scores in time for October 21st. The latest a student has scheduled for the PE is 12/14 in that class. They're recommending to keep checking for more dates to schedule it before August 31st as new dates pop up. At least for our school, it is actually a minority having an issue with the PE scheduling. Of course this might change if they bump the dates back from June 1st.

Still, everyone is doing all they can. Residency programs have been asked to be flexible about the PE, but then again, this is program dependent.
 
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TheaterOfTheme said:
Hold up a sec...
Who actually thinks schools will allow us to do audition rotations? I am convinced that it's highly likely my school will be allowing students back on rotation anytime before September. All that being said, I'm planning on moving Step 2 and Level 2 to September given I doubt we will be returning to rotations before 2021 in all honesty. How are things at all of y'all's schools? I'd love to know how everyone is feeling about this thing.
Click to expand...
Lol you have some really old Info from your school, like march or early April old info, almost every school i know in the US is on for rotations starting in June, our core rotation site in NY is also on for July and August, so I can’t image your school stopping you from going on rotations till September let alone 2021, that’s a pipe dream, cases or no cases.... Med students will be needed even more if covid makes a comeback in the fall and that is also a BIG IF...
 
mathnerd88 said:
No idea, because I'm getting emails directly from my dean saying that only 21 of our students in class of 2021 have the PE scheduled after August 31st for the PE, which accounts for about 12-13% of our class and meaning that they won't get their scores in time for October 21st. The latest a student has scheduled for the PE is 12/14 in that class. They're recommending to keep checking for more dates to schedule it before August 31st as new dates pop up. At least for our school, it is actually a minority having an issue with the PE scheduling. Of course this might change if they bump the dates back from June 1st.

Still, everyone is doing all they can. Residency programs have been asked to be flexible about the PE, but then again, this is program dependent.
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This could not be further from reality at my school.
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Lol you have some really old Info from your school, like march or early April old info, almost every school i know in the US is on for rotations starting in June, our core rotation site in NY is also on for July and August, so I can’t image your school stopping you from going on rotations till September let alone 2021, that’s a pipe dream, cases or no cases.... Med students will be needed even more if covid makes a comeback in the fall and that is also a BIG IF...
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I definitely wouldn't be posting "old info". The 2021 thing is totally conjecture on my part, however. Also, med students will not be needed by any means. I think we count as "fomites" in this situation.
 
Neopolymath said:
This could not be further from reality at my school.
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full_rocker said:
Agreed. Many fellow classmates (myself included) had PEs in April/May... They are now all scattered anywhere from Oct to Jan (!) of 2021.
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Do you guys know accurately how many percentage of students at your school had their PE dates after August 31st? I also reckon that those who had to reschedule their PE's are the ones who voice more concerns.

Before the pandemic, my school required all students to have scheduled the PE by July 31st in order to meet the deadline of the ERAS (before Sept 15.) Traditionally, the students in my school have taken the PE after taking CE. My guess is that most of the students in my school scheduled the PE in late June/July.
 
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mathnerd88 said:
Do you guys know accurately how many percentage of students at your school had their PE dates after August 31st? I also reckon that those who had to reschedule their PE's are the ones who voice more concerns.

Before the pandemic, my school required all students to have scheduled the PE by July 31st in order to meet the deadline of the ERAS (before Sept 15.) Traditionally, the students in my school have taken the PE after taking CE. My guess is that most of the students in my school scheduled the PE in late June/July.
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By PE you meant CS? Sorry my brain failed me here.
 
mathnerd88 said:
Do you guys know accurately how many percentage of students at your school had their PE dates after August 31st? I also reckon that those who had to reschedule their PE's are the ones who voice more concerns.

Before the pandemic, my school required all students to have scheduled the PE by July 31st in order to meet the deadline of the ERAS (before Sept 15.) Traditionally, the students in my school have taken the PE after taking CE. My guess is that most of the students in my school scheduled the PE in late June/July.
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I don't have exact numbers. Just from what I am gathering from FB page posts and friends.

Our school did not have a hard date to take PE by, but recommend that PE be taken "as soon as possible" after our PE-prep course which is traditionally held in late March. A lot of students wanted it done ASAP so signed up for April/May dates, and now are unfortunately stuck with dates extending into 2021. Some initial PE dates spread out through June-July months, not many to my knowledge with dates into August.

I'm eagerly awaiting NBOME to further cancel exams through June so we can add more gasoline to this dumpster fire.
 
frenchyn said:
By PE you meant CS? Sorry my brain failed me here.
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CS is for Step 2. I'm talking specifically about Level 2 PE here. My school recommends against taking Step 2 CS, as the dean states it adds little to no benefit when it comes to residency apps over Level 2 PE.
 
mathnerd88 said:
No idea, because I'm getting emails directly from my dean saying that only 21 of our students in class of 2021 have the PE scheduled after August 31st for the PE, which accounts for about 12-13% of our class and meaning that they won't get their scores in time for October 21st. The latest a student has scheduled for the PE is 12/14 in that class. They're recommending to keep checking for more dates to schedule it before August 31st as new dates pop up. At least for our school, it is actually a minority having an issue with the PE scheduling. Of course this might change if they bump the dates back from June 1st.

Still, everyone is doing all they can. Residency programs have been asked to be flexible about the PE, but then again, this is program dependent.
Click to expand...

I don’t have the stats but here it’s probably the opposite, that only 12% will HAVE done PE by August 31st. We have people scheduled into February 2021 and some not scheduled yet.
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
I definitely wouldn't be posting "old info". The 2021 thing is totally conjecture on my part, however. Also, med students will not be needed by any means. I think we count as "fomites" in this situation.
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The three auditions I have scheduled thus far have been pretty sternly telling me they plan to go forward with the audition rotation. This is in August/September time frame. All three in different states. All three are non-VSAS. I think there will be a good amount of programs that will try to remain normalized this cycle and not just cancel all aways completely.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Lol we have 4 people who have taken PE so far. This is what was told to us by admin.
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Chibucks15 said:
We technically aren't even allowed to until after our practice week the first week of June. We've had 0 take it
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This is crazy lol. Our school changed the schedule for our class and made the majority of us take it this spring, with osces in December. As far as I know the majority of our class has taken it. I took mine in mid-January. This is probably the only thing our school has done right for us since we started.
 
sunshinefl said:
I don’t have the stats but here it’s probably the opposite, that only 12% will HAVE done PE by August 31st. We have people scheduled into February 2021 and some not scheduled yet.
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I think at least half our class have taken it already. Just about everyone I know has passed the exam.
 
All I can say is hot dam glad I’m not in the 2021 DO class. Somehow this will hurt DO more than MD since individual performance in all areas is much more important than those coming from MD. And NBOME will somehow make things worse.
 
Agahnim said:
All I can say is hot dam glad I’m not in the 2021 DO class. Somehow this will hurt DO more than MD since individual performance in all areas is much more important than those coming from MD. And NBOME will somehow make things worse.
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It may be worse for subsequent classes to. This may or may not reverberate for years to come
 
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