AZCOM Class of 2009

[goooooober]

I'm so sick of seeing this post. So, here is the deal. Consider yourself lucky that AZCOM doesn't have the traditional rotation set up. You only have to go out of state for your hospital based rotations, but thats only if you choose to. You can do every one of them here in the valley if you wish or every one of them in a different state for that matter. For example, I am only going out of state for two months. And I will still fullfill the reqs. to apply for the Good Sam rotation. Its a different system. But, I prefer it. Good Sam and St. Josephs 3rd year roations are observation only. I just got a call the other day from a friend doing his OB/GYN rotation preceptor based. He assisted in a C-section and performed 25% percent of the surgery. If you think that you are going to get that kind of experience on a traditional based set up, think again. But, if you want to bitch about AZCOM because you are a "TOP student" (...please), go ahead. Why would you say that anyways? I am a top student... as if that makes you any different from anyone else attending this school. Or better yet, you need to say that in order to validify yourself. Arrogance. And in case you haven't heard, the school is trying to have the governor oust the UA contract with the hospitals in this valley. By the time the class of 2009 reaches 3rd year a lot will have changed. So be patient. Until then focus on whats important... now, not three years down the road.

DFrancyk, go back and read my post more carefully. The reason I said I am a top student is because hylacinerea implied that those who "complain" are usually those who are doing bad academically, not successful and unhappy. I am none of those. The fact that I am a top student does make a difference in a sense that I am not subjective in my evaluation of the AZCOM system. I am very successful at AZCOM but feel that the program has major flaws that MUST be corrected, period. Also, the preceptorial rotations that AZCOM offers may be fantastic when it comes to being hands on and teaching you how to do things. BUT, residencies, especially good ones, want to see that their applicants have done rotations in the traditional system of hospitals with residency programs, even in primay care fields and they will judge you mainly on 3rd year rotations. This is a FACT that is stated by many many many 4th year students applying to residency programs and also by residents and attendings. Dear Luke, nothing in today's world is not-for-profit. Bottom line, AZCOM will give you a great education (one that gets you the good residency), only if you are willing to travel and get it yourself. If you are willing to travel then you will be fine and happy at AZCOM.

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[LukeWhite]

Dear Luke, nothing in today's world is not-for-profit.

We can differ on the rest and on the value that this or that primary care residency program puts on Genuine Hospital Rotations (it's my impression, though, that most top students making these arguments didn't spend much time looking into the nuances of FP programs). But this "nothing is not-for-profit" is just the sort of empty cynicism that sounds pretty without actually meaning anything. Whether the conglomerate uses its money wisely or unwisely, it is under certain legal restrictions as a not-for-profit which would seem to be adhered to. And stating that AZCOM is for-profit, as some are doing, when it's explicitly *not*, whatever your opinion on its financial responsibility, is simply irresponsible.

 

[DFrancyk]

DFrancyk, go back and read my post more carefully. The reason I said I am a top student is because hylacinerea implied that those who "complain" are usually those who are doing bad academically, not successful and unhappy. I am none of those. The fact that I am a top student does make a difference in a sense that I am not subjective in my evaluation of the AZCOM system. I am very successful at AZCOM but feel that the program has major flaws that MUST be corrected, period. Also, the preceptorial rotations that AZCOM offers may be fantastic when it comes to being hands on and teaching you how to do things. BUT, residencies, especially good ones, want to see that their applicants have done rotations in the traditional system of hospitals with residency programs, even in primay care fields and they will judge you mainly on 3rd year rotations. This is a FACT that is stated by many many many 4th year students applying to residency programs and also by residents and attendings. Dear Luke, nothing in today's world is not-for-profit. Bottom line, AZCOM will give you a great education (one that gets you the good residency), only if you are willing to travel and get it yourself. If you are willing to travel then you will be fine and happy at AZCOM.

You're right. I did not see the previous post saying that the only med students who complain are those who are doing bad or whatever. Heh! I find more often than not its those who are on the top who tend to complain. I'm guilty as charged. I have my differences with AZCOM as well. I am counting down the four weeks we have left before we can finally say our second year is over and my association with the school is no more than two Tuesdays a month. But, I am tired of seeing people go on and on and on about our rotation system. Yup, its not perfect. And no, its not bad either. As you mentioned we do have to travel for one or two rotations, but do what I did. Leave during summer! Too damn hot to be wearing a suit anyways. I know its hard to travel for those who have a family or whatever, but trust me it works out. As far as AZCOM changing things, you know as well as I do that they are working on it. And I am sure that in time it will be fixed. But complaining isn't getting us anywhere. Look how far our complaing got the OMM department. We have to continue to take on responsibility and be proactive. Remember it was one of our classmates who brought this whole rotation thing to the attention of the governor's health advisor. And if I remember the story... she wants to remove the hospital's funding if they don't accept our students into their rotations. As far as getting good residencies... you can talk to as many fourth years as you want... even third years... and they will all tell you different things. You have to do what is right for you and you alone. If you can't leave the state. Then don't. If you don't want to take the USMLE then don't; I'm not. In the end, you will see that you will land yourself a good residency that works for you. Heh.. this is all the time I'm willing to give talking about this subject; got a huge path test to study for. As far as all you new acceptants, feel free to post any questions. But take my advice, just lean back and congratulate yourself for a job well done; you got accepted! And relax. Next year will be upon you soon enough. Take care and hopefully I haven't offended you goooooober

 

[hylacinerea]

I didn't intend to suggest that there is a correlation between academic achievement and attitude towards the rotations at azcom. I was just trying to give an example, which I apparently didn't articulate well enough. Sorry if I offended anyone as that was not my intention. Bad example I guess

 

[Mohel]

Guys,
Funny you mention that, Because I personally did rotations at all the hospitals listed while at AZCOM, except tempe st lukes. Either way as mentioned before, for the dude who wants medicine spoofed to him, good luck in medicine, because when residency starts, you have much to learn about life. In osteopathic or allopathic "teaching hospital" based system it is not spoodfed. This is to prepare you for a life long attitude of self-learning. They want you to become a expert in becoming a self learner who be stay ahead of the game and to become critical and accepting of research and evidenced based medicine throughout life. This is a process of medicine you will begin in medical school and advance in residency and fellowship. For the people complaining of the 200+ thousands in loans, well for that AZCOM is even better. The classess many of you are not taking...i.e. medical economics, managed care, practice management, are classes you should be demanding because that is what is going to help you with a system where the average reimbursement is $5-8 per patient/per visit. Further AZCOM gives you the opportunity to learn an ever changing healthcare scenario, to understand academics, private practice, community hospitals, rural medicine, etc. This is something few at a traditional teaching program have the opportunity to see. And again as often a receiver of questions, "HOW DO I CHOOSE A RESIDENCY, or A SPECIALTY" from students who have only seen teaching hopsitals, it is hard for them to figure out what they wanted to do, where they want to practice, or what kind of program they want when they have never really seen medicine in the real world.

Oh by the way, AZCOM will set up all your rotations for you if you would like. And also by the way similarly to every program in the country, osteopathic and allopathic, If you want to look at "big names", you have your entire fourth year to do your sub-I, and no one really cares if you went to big names to get into those. Just call the center/hospital/medical school and get an application early.

 

[the phil]

Hi, I am looking for roommates to share a 4bdrm 2ba house in the Highlands subdivision. It's a 2min drive to campus according to Google Maps. Please PM me if you have any questions.

 

[Littleg1225]

How long did it take for you guys to get your acceptance letter/phone call after your interview? Thanks

 

[Tonloc08]

How long did it take for you guys to get your acceptance letter/phone call after your interview? Thanks

Littleg1225 - were you in the final interview group for this year? I was as well and have not heard back either. The admissions office said that we should be hearing back late this week or early next........Good luck!

 

[Littleg1225]

Littleg1225 - were you in the final interview group for this year? I was as well and have not heard back either. The admissions office said that we should be hearing back late this week or early next........Good luck!

Yes I interviewed on the 7th. Good luck to you too!

 

[group_theory]

Here is an article that I hope future AZCOM (and current) students find interesting. The article is quite long ... and it is relevant to Arizona ... but I'll copy/paste the more relevant portion of the article

http://www.azcapitoltimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=1978

excerpts from the above link

Mr. Cannell said he is also concerned about a lack of cooperation between the UofA medical school and the osteopathic physician, or DO, community.

“The medical school has been resistant to endorsing clinical rotations [third and fourth-year student training in hospitals] for osteopaths,” he said. “That to me is a sign that they’re not interested in serving the underserved populations of Arizona. Most osteopaths go into primary care. In talking to the [DO] students, they would prefer to stay in Arizona.

“Before I get on this medical school thing wholeheartedly, I want assurance that they’re going to actively support the osteopathic clinical rotations.”

DOs receive the same medical education as MDs, with additional emphasis on the musculo-skeletal system.

Mr. Rivers of the hospital association says Mr. Cannell’s comments “are quite valid.”

“But the roadblock to a more collaborative relationship between our teaching hospitals and the osteopathic college of medicine is not within the hospital community,” Mr. Rivers said. “Historically, the roadblock has been at the University of Arizona College of Medicine which, so far, has actively stood in the way of a more collegial relationship with Midwestern University” [Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine], a private school established in Glendale in 1995.

“This definitely needs to change, but it could change in about five minutes if the [UofA] College of Medicine would give the green light,” Mr. Rivers said.

The UofA’s Mr. Joiner said the DO situation is the result of a policy by his predecessor.

“I don’t believe that is one we should use going forward,” he said. “The most important thing is to work collectively to come up with a new policy that takes all factors into account.” Mr. Joiner said, however, there are complex organizational, financial and curriculum factors to consider in a new policy.

Third-and-fourth-year UofA medical students serve clinical rotations at nine Valley teaching hospitals.

Kathleen Goeppinger, president and CEO of Midwestern, said there have been some hospitals in Phoenix that — “out of allegiance” to the UofA — have not accepted DOs for their available rotations, but added, “We don’t find any discrimination.” She said Midwestern is setting up residency rotations in Sierra Vista and Kingman, and MDs often take DOs into their practice.

Over the past four years, an average of 21 per cent of Midwestern graduates who served internships and residencies in Arizona have stayed in the state to practice, the school said.

Midwestern spent $80 million in capital expenses to launch the school and operates on a $40 million annual budget.

The university also graduates pharmacists, podiatric physicians, physician assistants, nurse anesthetists, perfusionists and occupational therapists.

Amanda Weaver, executive director of the Arizona Osteopathic Medical Association that licenses and regulates 1,400 DOs, said there has been a problem getting surgical rotations at some area hospitals.

“I’m not sure what it’s all about, but there is a problem,” she said.

 

[larke28]

Littleg1225: I interviewed in Nov & heard back in 2-3wks (by mail). May have also been a bit delayed b/c it was around the Thanksgiving holidays. Good luck, hope you'll be joining us in the fall!

btw, anyone have suggestions on reputable movers to AZ? Relocating from Boston, MA in the fall and a bit worried from hearing all the mover horror stories.

How long did it take for you guys to get your acceptance letter/phone call after your interview? Thanks

 

[Psyche021]

Hey everybody.
As I prepare to make the move to good ole Glendale I am having some problems with finding a roommate that is on the same professional track as we will all soon be on. So I'm trying my luck on SDN. Are there any females, either new or current DO students that would like to live off campus together starting 8/01? I am looking at getting an apartment at Arrowhead Highlands or San Prado since its seems those are the most convenient. I'm am open to living elsewhere though as long as it is close to MU since Im sure I will end up spending many a long nights in the library and labs. If your interested drop me an email at [email protected] and I'll give you some more info on me.

 

[Tonloc08]

Yes I interviewed on the 7th. Good luck to you too!

I interviewed on the 5th and recieved and acceptance letter today I look forward to meeting you all in August.

 

[Inquiringmind24]

We'll look forward to seeing you in Glendale this August! By the way, where in CO are you from?

 

[Kona]

Sounds like I'm joining this thread a little late. My name's Kona and I'm looking forward to meeting all of you in August.

 

[baobaobee]

Hi, Kona, welcome to join us!!!

 

[DFrancyk]

Arizona will stop funding hospitals who do not accept AZCOM students for rotations beginning July 1st. So, all those worried about rotations here in the state should chill out and focus on whats more important and thats their sanity. Also, Kirksville is scheduled to open up a school here in Mesa in two years. Good luck all.

 

[cdreed]

Arizona will stop funding hospitals who do not accept AZCOM students for rotations beginning July 1st. So, all those worried about rotations here in the state should chill out and focus on whats more important and thats their sanity. Also, Kirksville is scheduled to open up a school here in Mesa in two years. Good luck all.

Thanks for the update! Great news!

Was this discussed at the Dean's meeting today?

 

[DFrancyk]

Yup.

 

[Inquiringmind24]

That's great news about the rotations! We'll see what pans out. Today I got an e-mail from Jose Ponce the housing director who said the luxury apartments were gone and only the standard two bedrooms were left. Given that I turned in my housing application quite a while ago, I was suprised that my app wasn't processed earlier. I went ahead and told him to book me the standard two bedroom with a roommate. Has anyone lived in the standard two bedroom appt with a roommate? If so, how was it?

 

[LukeWhite]

That's great news about the rotations! We'll see what pans out. Today I got an e-mail from Jose Ponce the housing director who said the luxury apartments were gone and only the standard two bedrooms were left. Given that I turned in my housing application quite a while ago, I was suprised that my app wasn't processed earlier. I went ahead and told him to book me the standard two bedroom with a roommate. Has anyone lived in the standard two bedroom appt with a roommate? If so, how was it?

The standard with a roommate is a little cramped...I have a luxury w/ roommate and it's just big enough. Have you looked into the apartments across the road? There's a big new development up.

 

[novacek88]

Arizona will stop funding hospitals who do not accept AZCOM students for rotations beginning July 1st.

I'll believe it when I read it. Do you have a URL or any proof of this? There have been rumors about this for a while and it never materializes. I won't trust anything said at Dean's meeting unless it comes to fuition and is in writing.

 

[novacek88]

There is no tension between the U of A and Midwestern. I promise. The problem is that Midwestern is not willing to pay hospitals like U of A does to get its students rotations. What you have to realize is that midwestern is run solely as a business, profit-only oriented. U of A is run like an educational institution with profit being part of the equation. The reason the faculty at midwestern has said that U of A is not allowing rotations to happen is because if they tell the truth, no medical student will seriously consider midwestern as their destination. We have had offers from great programs, but the school was not willing to pay. The rotations that are provided are mostly preceptorial or located in forsaken locations where the need is so high that they are willing to take midwestern students almost free of charge. As new students to AZCOM it will be up to you to make sure that your voices are heard not by the dean, but rather by the president of the University. You guys will pay almost 4 times the tuition paid at U of A. You might as well get your money's worth. Good luck.

Unlike DFrancyk and Luke, I'm a 4th year that is about to graduate. I have actually gone through the process of traveling during 3rd year etc. As a student that is about to graduate from AZCOM and knows more about the process than most people on this thread, I can assure you everything said in the above paragraph is true. The perceived notion that the University of Arizona is some monster is simply not true. Can you really blame the U of A? Why would you allow Midwestern' students to free load and rotate at hospitals when they are paying nothing for them. And it's not like Midwestern can't afford to pay for those rotation priviledges. AZCOM is a private school and thus profits are it's incentive. They don't want to pay for you to rotate locally when they know most students can deal with traveling for 6 months during their 3rd year and rotate locally during their 4th year during elective months.

There are many great things about AZCOM but this aspect to the school is clearly a negative. And usually the people who try to cover this aspect are eager first and second year students who have not actually gone through their 3rd and 4th years. I was like them and once I got some real exposure to clinicals, my opinion changed.

 

[novacek88]

To all of you AZCOM students who complain...Stop it..
As a former azcom grad who went through the system, preceptor and all, let me tell you the truth. I am now one of the residents teaching the med students at those teaching hospitals you all think are the best...I love what I do, and it is great, but for me, not so sure for you.

You do not realize how great you have it. At your friendly ol teaching hospital where you need to compete with fellow med students, residents, externs, fellows, np's, pa's, and then the attendings to learn and do work, you do not get nearly as good of an experience as you will and do at AZCOM. As you 3rd and 4th years who are complaining on this web site rather than working. I f you picked up your books, asked questions, stayed late, and went in early, spent time with the patients, whose volume at AZCOM med, with both its inpatient and outpatient system, is 10 times what you would see in the same inpatient month at most medical systems you will see how qualified you will be as residents let alone physicians no matter where you end of for residency. You have the opportunity to be one on one with the best (the attendings). ou have the opportunity to know normal patients and abnormal patients extremely well. And as a resident, I will tell you that is what you need to know when you come out ready to start your residency. And I promise you, if you actually study like you are supposed to be doing in your 3rd and 4th years, you will be more than prepared for residency and well on your way to becoming a great physician. Your actual numbers in 3rd and 4th year are usually 50% inpatient and 50% outpatient, and for 95% of medicine, you must realize your practice in residency will not be your practice as an attending. Residecy usually reflects the inefficient medical training system of traning physicians how to be hospitalists and not preparing them for their specialty.

Stop with the cheerleading routine already......Yes, it's true that at a teaching hospital, you will compete with fellow med students, residents, externs, fellows, np's, attendings and pa's but guess what that is what your residency will be like. Unfortunately, you don't have the luxury of doing your residency in some preceptor's office when he will serve you milk and cookies and let you go home at 4 PM. The hands on nature of the preceptorship is nice but residency is more than hands-on procedures. The hospital has a language of its own. There is something to be said for being pimped on the spot among your fellow med students that you won't get in a preceptorship. You will have to learn how to survive in a hospital setting and you won't be prepared for that unless you do rotations in a hospital based setting. I matched into a very prestigious IM program and I did two months of IM at a teaching hospital and I'm glad I did it because when I did my IM electives in Phoenix, I was ahead of every student I was with.

And no student should feel entitled to attend AZCOM. It's not as if AZCOM isn't charging you tuiting (a lot of tuition I might add). Providing rotations in local hospitals...IS THEIR JOB. That is what you are paying tuition for. It's not a priviledge for them to provide you with opportunities to rotate locally. If AZCOM is going to charge you 40 per year for tuition, the least they could is work with the University of Arizona to work out some payment plan so that our students can rotate locally in hospitals they are affiliated with.

If you were admitted to another medical school, I would encourage you to do your research and examine their third and fourth year curriculum when compared to AZCOM. The first two years at AZCOM are nice but then after that, the organization is very loose.

 

[novacek88]

More information that you should know

AZCOM doesn't provide grades during your clinical rotations of your 3rd and 4th years. This can be extremely detrimental. If you speak to most medical students, they will tell you that clinical grades and board scores are the most important factors to acquiring a competitive residencies. This is particularly true if you perform only average during basic sciences. At most medical schools, clinicals gives you an opportunity to make up for average or even above average grades during basic sciences.

Your class rank at AZCOM is permanent after your first two years. You can't raise your GPA or class rank after your first two years. This favors those who do well during their first two years and penalizes those who do better during clinicals. Many medical students do okay during basic sciences and compensate for their grades during clinical years. AZCOM doesn't inform students of this.

The standard reply to the above is:"Yes but you will receive letters of recommendation that serrve as proof of your competency during your rotations." Letters of Recommendation are nice but they are not the same as receiving an Honors in surgery for example. It's not the same. And many medical students that match at competitive programs will not have great basic science grades but will excel during clinicals.

Now most of you will just say: "I will excel basic sciences and then not worry how I do during clinicals." Easier said than done. Yes, if you finish in the top 20%, you are golden but if you are not, then it doesn't bode so well for you particularly since your class rank is set and you can't raise it with a good performance during clinicals. And considering there are 140 or so per class, 20% only accounts for 28 students. So the remaining 112 students are at a disadvantage.

 

[novacek88]

Is anyone else confused about our third and fourth year clinical rotations? lately I've found quite a few people on SDN saying that our school is not affiliated with any hospitals, and it is for profit only. so how exactly would we set up rotations ourselves when the school is not paying anything? what kind of programs would accept us to train with them without receiving money? I'm kinda worried now about the quality of clinical rotations we'll receive. Hopefully it won't be as bad as what people say on here.

You call hospitals you are interested in rotating at and asking them if they have space and if they could allow you to rotate there for a month. You are basically free loading and asking if they will allow you to tag along. Many hospitals are okay with this policy. But some hospitals will not allow you to do this. You will find that out when you call various hospitals. You might consider purchasing a fax machine because you will be doing all of the paperwork yourself. Clinical ed will offer little help in this area if you want to go out of state. Consider it another 3 credit class because that's how much work you will be doing outside of class setting these up. You then have to set up your own housing, travel, budget etc. on your own. Nope, AZCOM doesn't pay for any of this. That the "penalty" you get for avoiding those "great" preceptor rotations and for desiring to normal....I mean hospital based rotations. There is much more to it than this but this should give you the basic idea.

 

[novacek88]

For all the dismissal of those who defend AZCOM's setup, you'd think we wouldn't have to keep answering this question. No other medical school is going to give you the third-year experience and fourth-year flexibility that AZCOM does. For some this isn't worth the trade-off; for many of us, particularly those interested in full-scope primary care and targeting a limited and specific set of residency programs, it is.

I have read many of your posts and you continue to spread misinformation based on your beliefs of the school rather than the facts itself. I know you love AZCOM but you should not do so at the expense of spinning information or failing to provide the facts as they are. You were a first year student last year and knew nothing about the rotation setup yet you were arguing with third and fourth year students about clinical rotations. You are doing this again as a second year.For example, it's not true that no other school offers the type of "flexibility" that AZCOM offers. Nearly every medical school in the U.S. allows their students to do elective rotations outside their school. And many schools will allow students to do core rotations elsewhere if it is approved.

You call this flexibility and that's clearly not what it is.It's not flexible when a student is forced to travel during third year on their own dime because there are no opportunities to rotate locally in normal hospital based rotations.

And if you still insist this is a type of flexibility then most Caribbean medical schools also offer this type of "flexibility" considering their students have the lovely opportunity of traveling for each rotation during third year. Yes, Ross is as flexible as Midwestern then.....maybe even more so since they have more rotation sites in the U.S.

 

[Zarin79sa]

Hi, everyone! Some interesting discussions going on here. My question is off topic from the above post. Has anyone heard from fin aid office since submitting FAFSA? Anyone have any idea when they will be processed? Thanks for any input.

 

[LukeWhite]

I have read many of your posts and you continue to spread misinformation based on your beliefs of the school rather than the facts itself. I know you love AZCOM but you should not do so at the facts of spinning information or failing to provide the facts as they are. You were a first year student last year and knew nothing about the rotation setup yet you were arguing with third and fourth year students about clinical rotations. You are doing this again as a second year.For example, it's not true that no other school offers the type of "flexibility" that AZCOM offers. Nearly every medical school in the U.S. allows their students to do elective rotations outside their school. And many schools will allow students to do core rotations elsewhere if it is approved.

You call this flexibility and that's clearly not what it is.It's not flexible when a student is forced to travel during third year on their own dime because there are no opportunities to rotate locally in normal hospital based rotations.

And if you still insist this is a type of flexibility then most Caribbean medical schools also offer this type of "flexibility" considering their students have the lovely opportunity of traveling for each rotation during third year. Yes, Ross is as flexible as Midwestern then.....maybe even more so since they have more rotation sites in the U.S.

Wow, strong words for someone who doesn't seem to be too clear on what he's talking about. We can argue the virtues of rotation setup another time. The point at issue is clinical grades. I recall an elaborate presentation in wich the dean went over the half dozen things that make up our clinical grades, while you say there's no grading at all. You're clearly in the know about so much of the school's goings-on; perhaps you can explain this to me and the incoming students.

You sound awfully bitter; certainly your prerogative. But if you must be negative, keep your facts straight.

(And if you insist on bringing up rotations again, perhaps you could give us a side-by-side comparison of, say, COMP's fourth year flexibility for external rotations versus AZCOM's. As a second year, I have a little trouble reading words and tables, but it sure seems to me as if there are some pretty clear limitations at other schools that AZCOM doesn't have.)

 

[hylacinerea]

Hi, everyone! Some interesting discussions going on here. My question is off topic from the above post. Has anyone heard from fin aid office since submitting FAFSA? Anyone have any idea when they will be processed? Thanks for any input.

The following is from an email I received from the finaid office:

"We will be processing your information around the beginning of May and
then sending the award letters out. We are still working on the 05-06
cost of attendance."

I'm assuming that means they haven't decided how much to raise the tuition

 

[hylacinerea]

Wow, strong words for someone who doesn't seem to be too clear on what he's talking about. We can argue the virtues of rotation setup another time. The point at issue is clinical grades. I recall an elaborate presentation in wich the dean went over the half dozen things that make up our clinical grades, while you say there's no grading at all. You're clearly in the know about so much of the school's goings-on; perhaps you can explain this to me and the incoming students.

You sound awfully bitter; certainly your prerogative. But if you must be negative, keep your facts straight.

Good point LukeWhite! I was just thinking, as I read the above posts by novacek88, about that presentation on interview day where they talked about things such as grading during clinical rotations. It will be interesting to see what novacek says about this.

 

[LukeWhite]

Good point LukeWhite! I was just thinking, as I read the above posts by novacek88, about that presentation on interview day where they talked about things such as grading during clinical rotations. It will be interesting to see what novacek says about this.

I was perhaps too nasty in that post, and I apologize to you 2009'ers since actual information will be more helpful than snark. We no longer have honors in clinical rotations. However, we're graded on a variety of factors, including your COMLEX scores, Standardized Patient Exam scores, shelf exams, preceptor evaluations, and a few other things I can't recall right now. There's a pretty clear formula.

Incidentally, a word of advice for those watching their ranking during the *first* two years. While some students will likely be 90s in everything, lesser students like me have to prioritize. Make sure you know how many credits each class is worth--it's easy to mismanage time studying crazily for a three credit class when the seven credit class will make a much bigger difference to your rank.

Best of luck with all the preparation!

 

[hylacinerea]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread and others that claim AZCOM's unwillingness to pay local hospitals is the reason it can't establish some sort of rotation program in the area for 3rd years. If this issue is simply about money then why would the State of AZ get involved? Wouldn't the state simply just tell azcom to pay up or shut up? Why would so many people be getting on the hospital's and the UofA's case if it were just about azcom not wanting to pay? I'm not saying this is or isn't the case because I don't have a lot of first-hand knowledge here, but it doesn't make sense that anyone would get involved if it is merely an issue of failure to pay for services rendered.
Does anyone know what azcom's view is on this issue? Does azcom believe that it should be allowed to establish a rotation program at area hospitals for free?

 

[LukeWhite]

Hey guys,

Following is a response I gave to someone about rotations. Of course, I'm a lowly second year, so take this with as much salt as you like. The AZCOM advantage I discuss, though, is one that's rather unique and I think worth considering from Day 1 as you start to plan out your career.

--------------------

I'd encourage you to consider at least a little moving if you can handle it. Of course, family concerns, etc keep some people from doing so. But AZCOM has very strong Kingman rotations that will offer you more third-year clinical experience than you could get at any other medical school in the country. You can also set several of those up in a row and so not move for months, if you like.

I set up most of my rotations individually with our rotation coordinator. These were all outside Phoenix and so not in the lottery system. This let me choose what specialty I wanted when, and so I was able to get an order that will be most advantageous for my goals. For example, I'm set on FP: I start out with two FP rotations with lots of hands on experience, and my third FP rotation, which is famous for its challenge and the huge number of babies students deliver, is much later, after I do my OB, Peds, and IM. I set up my surgery before OB: I'm not interested in surgery *except* for C-sections, and so when I get into my obstetrics rotation I'll have plenty of experience with the technical details so that I can get my hands dirty. Set up the other way, I'd almost certainly be only observing on the tough procedures.

As far as I know, this is more or less unique among all schools, and it's an advantage I haven't seen discussed much. While staying in Phoenix will likely mean a more traditional setup in which order is less in your control, being able to do even just a few rotations in outer Arizona (Kingman, Sierra Vista, Prescott, etc) will have a huge impact on your clinical education and how much you're able to get out of each. This sort of advantage could never be implemented universally across med schools, and so AZCOM offers someone willing to put in some strategic planning a tremendous opportunity.

 

[Psyche021]

Hi, everyone! Some interesting discussions going on here. My question is off topic from the above post. Has anyone heard from fin aid office since submitting FAFSA? Anyone have any idea when they will be processed? Thanks for any input.

I actually just called to inquire about financial id the other day and was told that we should be given our financial packages by the end of May. They are still determining the amount of tuition for next year so things are being held up.

 

[Zarin79sa]

Thanks hylacinerea and Psyche021 for your replies. I'm certain the tuition will be hiked, but *fingers crossed* hopefully not too much

 

[novacek88]

Wow, strong words for someone who doesn't seem to be too clear on what he's talking about. We can argue the virtues of rotation setup another time. The point at issue is clinical grades. I recall an elaborate presentation in wich the dean went over the half dozen things that make up our clinical grades, while you say there's no grading at all. You're clearly in the know about so much of the school's goings-on; perhaps you can explain this to me and the incoming students.

You are doing it again Luke. Rather than give older students the benefit of the doubt, you want to assume you know more than us and debate with us only to admit later on that you were unclear about issues. You did this with Boomer, Goober and now myself. This is a perfect example. Read below

Yes, you will take shelf exams and you will be graded on them with a certain percentile being given. HOWEVER, your actual grade will be a Pass or a Fail based on your percent that you earn. Your class rank will not affected by your performance on those shelf exams. And there is a reason for this. Everyone has a different schedule as to what rotations they do at a given time. So for example the students who took the surgery shelf later on would be benefitted because students who did their surgery rotation early thus taking the surgery shelf exam early would pass on their knowledge to the rest of the class. Students who took the test later would benefit from these questions being passed down. Students complained that this was an unfair advantage and thus they decided to award Pass/Fail only. Therefore, residency directors rely on your letters of recommendation to assess how you did during your clinical rotations.

Is that clear enough or are you insistent on spreading more false information?

 

[LukeWhite]

You are doing it again Luke. Rather than give older students the benefit of the doubt, you want to assume you know more than us and debate with us only to admit later on that you were unclear about issues. This is a perfect example. Read below

Yes, you will take shelf exams and you will be graded on them with a certain percentile being given. HOWEVER, your actual grade will be a Pass or a Fail based on your percent that you earn. Your class rank will not affected by your performance on those shelf exams. And there is a reason for this. Everyone has a different schedule as to what rotations they do at a given time. So for example the students who took the surgery shelf later on would be benefitted because students who did their surgery rotation early thus taking the surgery shelf exam early would pass on their knowledge to the rest of the class. Students who took the test later would benefit from these questions being passed down. Students complained that this was an unfair advantage and thus they decided to award Pass/Fail only. Therefore, residency directors rely on your letters of recommendation to assess how you did during your clinical rotations.

Is that clear enough or are you insistent on spreading more false information?

All right. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Would you care to explain what role COMLEX scores, SPE exam scores, preceptor evaluations, professionality evaluations, etc, play in this "pass/fail" system? You might also take a stab at why they're *proportionally* weighted if it's only a pass-fail situation. See, it would seem to me as if one would only assign proportionality if actual grades were being assigned (as *we were told explicitly* they are). But by all means: Enlighten me.

 

[novacek88]

All right. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Would you care to explain what role COMLEX scores, SPE exam scores, preceptor evaluations, professionality evaluations, etc, play in this "pass/fail" system? You might also take a stab at why they're *proportionally* weighted if it's only a pass-fail situation. See, it would seem to me as if one would only assign proportionality if actual grades were being assigned (as *we were told explicitly* they are). But by all means: Enlighten me.

What seems to you is irrelevant. You only need to be concerned with the facts.You are a second year student. Why don't you actually rotate somewhere first and then tell me what "grade" you receive at the end. That should be interesting. i have no interest in arguing with someone who is so obstinate that he can accept information from a student who has already been there. I don't feel like writing 3 paragraphs answering your question only for you to shoot me down questioning my sincerity. In short, all of those factors are taken into consideration which leads to your final grade being either a Pass or a Fail. However, your class rank and overall percentage is set after your first two years. Now go ahead and ask Mohel and others to say I'm wrong. I dare you. Go ahead buddy, a second year like you knows more than all of us who are about to graduate.

 

[novacek88]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread and others that claim AZCOM's unwillingness to pay local hospitals is the reason it can't establish some sort of rotation program in the area for 3rd years. If this issue is simply about money then why would the State of AZ get involved? Wouldn't the state simply just tell azcom to pay up or shut up? Why would so many people be getting on the hospital's and the UofA's case if it were just about azcom not wanting to pay? I'm not saying this is or isn't the case because I don't have a lot of first-hand knowledge here, but it doesn't make sense that anyone would get involved if it is merely an issue of failure to pay for services rendered.
Does anyone know what azcom's view is on this issue? Does azcom believe that it should be allowed to establish a rotation program at area hospitals for free?

Ask yourself this, why does Kirksvillve students have rotating priviledges in local Phoenix hospitals but AZCOM students don't? Kirksville is a DO school. They don't even have a campus here yet their students have been allowed to rotate in those same U of Arizona sanctioned hospitals that we have been denied during third year. So I suppose, the University of Arizona just hates AZCOM for no reason but loves Kirksville? How does that make any sense? If U of A was so against a DO school coming here, why have Kirksville students had free reign here for years?

You have to remember that the students talking about the State of Arizona getting involved etc. is beig stated by AZCOM students who have received this information from the AZCOM administration. Thus far, I have not heard from any credible source about the state forcing U of A's hand or anything of that sort. I have read anything of the sort. I have not seen any law stating that as of July first AZCOM students can rotate locally during core rotations because the state came down hard on the University of Arizona.

Furthermore, i don't see how the state would benefit by accepting AZCOM students for rotations for free. We are using their services not vice versa. It costs them money to train us not vice versa. These 3rd year students not residents so you can't even argue that third year students work for free and provide free scut. We are not even trained well enough to be scut. Those residents not third year students. Third year students are more or less a drain on a system because residents and attendings take time out of their schedule to train. It's a necessary part of the medical educational structure but it's not like third year students provide this amazing labor force.

 

[LukeWhite]

Novacek, group_theory (among others) posted an article not long ago on exactly this issue. I suspect that the good group_theory is not quite so in the thrall of the AZCOM administration as we poor rubes are given that he doesn't go to the school. Unfortunately, the AZCOM admins seem to have gotten to the reporters too, as well as the governor, her lackeys, various state legislators, and the president of UoA.

As for clinical rankings, there's no sense arguing without any additional information. I will ask the clinical ed department for the protocols and post them.

 

[novacek88]

As for clinical rankings, there's no sense arguing without any additional information. I will ask the clinical ed department for the protocols and post them.

Why don't you ask Mohel. If he graduated recently, then he will attest to what I said. We used to offer honors and we did away with that. Now your grade is either a Pass or a Fail and it doesn't affect your class rank. Your class rank is set after your first two years.

Better yet, e-mail the registrar Christy Schenk, you know the person who actually puts the grades down on your transcript, about when class ranks are established. She will tell you what I did. Your class rank is set after you first two years.

 

[cdreed]

Here's the link to that article:

http://www.azcapitoltimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=1978

I am the kind of person that hopes for the best but plans for the worst. So I will accept that rotations are being opened up in Phoenix when I see it. However, I am married with a family, and I am gladly rotating rurally in AZ this coming year.

I look forward to getting a lot of hands-on experience. I have worked in a
teaching medical facility in the past, so I don't feel as though I will be missing anything by not rotating through these places and picking up the culture...

To each his own. An education is ultimately what you make of it. I am not bitter about the AZCOM clin ed situation simply because I knew what I was signing up for.

Good luck to you all next year!

 

[cdreed]

Oh...

I think that novacek is right. Our class rank is set at the end of MSII, but the Dean's letter will also have a "Professionalism" score that accounts for years 3 and 4 in addition to your GPA/rank status.

The professionalism score includes your preceptor evals, post rotation exams, comlex I score, MSIII comprehensive exam score, and MSIII SPE score.

 

[novacek88]

Oh...

I think that novacek is right. Our class rank is set at the end of MSII, but the Dean's letter will also have a "Professionalism" score that accounts for years 3 and 4 in addition to your GPA/rank status.

The professionalism score includes your preceptor evals, post rotation exams, comlex I score, MSIII comprehensive exam score, and MSIII SPE score.

Well it's nice to see that Cindy is informed. Anyway, this was the only point I was trying to make. You cannot raise your class rank and overall percentage (we don't have GPA's) by your clinical performance since you are only given a Pass or Fail. The actual grade on your transcript will be a Pass, it won't be a percentage. Personally, I feel this is a drawback to AZCOM because you can't compensate for average grades during basic sciences. Your class rank and overall grade is based on your first two years alone. This penalizes students like Luke who are great with people and have excellent clinical skills.

To the upcoming first years, you won't know your class rank until the conclusion of second year. The school prevents the release of your class rank to prohibit needless competition. I can tell you this though; at AZCOM it's not uncommon for students who have a 87-88% overall to be in the bottom half of the class. There are some bright students at AZCOM.

 

[bla_3x]

Now I am not saying that "I" know anything about this topis...this is just a bit from a recent grad of AZCOM.

I was told by a then fourth year who matched at a competitive residency that his/her class rank went from top 50 to top 20 after the end of third year just b/c of the exams and such. This was this person's way of beating into me the need not to slack on the MSIII exams.

 

[novacek88]

Now I am not saying that "I" know anything about this topis...this is just a bit from a recent grad of AZCOM.

I was told by a then fourth year who matched at a competitive residency that his/her class rank went from top 50 to top 20 after the end of third year just b/c of the exams and such. This was this person's way of beating into me the need not to slack on the MSIII exams.

The easiest way to confirm this is to ask the registrar Christy Schenk about the issue. A lot of time clinical ed isn't aware of class rank plays into this but Christy is the registrar and she is the one who calculates and records the grades from which your class rank is established. She will verify what I said.

 

[LukeWhite]

I may owe you an apology Novacek! Or perhaps not. One way or the other, it will be sorted out easily enough, and we'll make sure that 2009 knows going in what the situation is.

 

[novacek88]

I may owe you an apology Novacek! Or perhaps not. One way or the other, it will be sorted out easily enough, and we'll make sure that 2009 knows going in what the situation is.

I will accept that apology any time now.

According to the student handbook:

Class Rank

Student class ranks are computed after each completed quarter except during fieldwork and clinical rotations. Class rank is not included on the official college transcript. A student who wishes to have his/her class rank included in an official document must make a written request to the Registrar. Class rank may not be available for all programs.

http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/administrative/SS/ssSH_policy.htm#28

If you have trouble going to this link. Go to online.midwestern.edu. Go to Student Services and look up the handbook. It's listed there.

 

[Boomer]

Now I am not saying that "I" know anything about this topis...this is just a bit from a recent grad of AZCOM.

I was told by a then fourth year who matched at a competitive residency that his/her class rank went from top 50 to top 20 after the end of third year just b/c of the exams and such. This was this person's way of beating into me the need not to slack on the MSIII exams.

Interesting, because my class was one of the two that had H/P/F grading, and our class ranks were set after year two.

Believe me, I wish that weren't the case....I was a much better student years 3 and 4. But, as has been mentioned before, they really can't adjust rankings for you on a P/F basis--basically everyone gets the same grade (except, obviously, for the very few people who fail).

And the MS III exams are an effin' joke. They know this, too. They use the same exam for each rotation over and over and over. This way, the people who take, say Surgery (which was the toughest exam) early on all barely pass. But, by the end of the year (when all of the questions have circulated), people are scoring high 80's and 90's.

There was some speech about "recognizing" the top performing clinical students in the dean's letter, however, your numerical class rank is final after year two.