[B]Advocates of DO Degree change to MD-O or O-MD[/B]

[jkhamlin]

drusso, excellent analogy and I do agree that DOs and MDs are like analogous structures. But no matter what creature the wing belongs to, you still call it a "wing", correct? You don't call one a "bird wing" and the other a "bat floobydooby". The one thing that signifies their function (wing for flight, in this case) should be included in the name, right? So do you see why I feel there should be an "M" in "DO"?

I move that we should all from now on refer to bat wings as "bat floobydoobies."

---

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[Sirius Black]

Wow. Is that "M" really that important to you? You can have it. I'm done.

Yes it is. And since nobody can refute my points or answer my questions, I guess I'm done too. So we deserve an "M". I'll talk to my dean about it tomorrow.

 

[jkhamlin]

Yes it is. And since nobody can refute my points or answer my questions, I guess I'm done too. So we deserve an "M". I'll talk to my dean about it tomorrow.

Be sure to mention the bat floobydoobies. I think that will seal the deal.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Wow. Is that "M" really that important to you? You can have it. I'm done.

Not really, but apparently that "O" in front of "MS" was a big enough deal to warrant an edict demanding its use.

But the problem here is that an "M" should be in the title of an osteopathic physician, since like I said before, we are currently OMSs.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I move that we should all from now on refer to bat wings as "bat floobydoobies"

I second that motion!

 

[jkhamlin]

I second that motion!

Of course, Batman will have to rename his jet, and it won't be so cool or badass anymore. Is the Joker really supposed to be scared if he sees Batman flying towards him in the Bat Floobydooby?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Of course, Batman will have to rename his jet, and it won't be so cool or badass anymore. Is the Joker really supposed to be scared if he sees Batman flying towards him in the Bat Floobydooby?

 

[sunnyjohn]

Questions-

If the degree was changed to MD-O or M.D., D.O. = Doctor of Medicine, Diplomate of Osteopathy would a surge in applications follow?

Would non-traditionals and those on the lower end of that .2 (?) academic numbers difference be frozen out?

 

[DetroitRocket]

I saw this on the Western Michigan University biology department web site:

The specific objectives of the Biomedical Sciences major include: (1) providing basic training for employment in clinics and basic research laboratories, industrial laboratories, as well as state and federal agencies; (2) producing highly qualified students for advanced training at the graduate-professional levels, i.e., M.S., Ph.D., M.D., D.D.S., D.O.M., D.P.M., or D.V.M.; and (3) pre professional training for such clinical areas as physician assistant, pharmacy, and physical therapy. For additional career options, see the Undergraduate Advisor.
Students interested in pursuing a teaching career in the biological sciences should follow the special guidelines for the Biology Major-Secondary Education Curriculum section below.

 

[Northerner]

Guys, you should really read some of the posts on that blog. They make excellent points.

The title "DO" is simply incorrect. I think we can all agree that DOs learn everything that MDs do plus a little extra, right? So why is "medicine" not in our title? We study it painstakingly every single day! Why do we get credited only for the "osteopathic" portion? Our schools are abbreviated "COM"s and our degree says "doctor of osteopathic medicine". However, our title only suggests "Doctor of Osteopathy" (which in the UK and much of Europe, is not even considered a full physician). We do not call ourselves OS-(I-IVs), we call ourselves OMS-(I-IVs). By changing the letter to MD-O or O-MD, we do a service to ourselves by getting credit for what we deserve as well as making the degree match the actual letters. We do a service to our patients by eliminating confusion or doubt about our capabilities, while still retaining our distinction.

I think drusso put it very well. The two training modalities are analogous. To suggest that you learn everything an MD does plus more directly implies that the MD degree is inferior to the DO degree, which is absolutely not true. To be honest, I doubt anyone would care if you added anything to your title. MD's are getting used to people throwing "medical school" into their training or "doctor" into their title. Why not DO's?

 

[jkhamlin]

I think drusso put it very well. The two training modalities are analogous. To suggest that you learn everything an MD does plus more directly implies that the MD degree is inferior to the DO degree, which is absolutely not true. To be honest, I doubt anyone would care if you added anything to your title. MD's are getting used to people throwing "medical school" into their training or "doctor" into their title. Why not DO's?

Uhhhh, but we do learn everything an MD learns and more.

 

[Northerner]

Uhhhh, but we do learn everything an MD learns and more.

You're going to get into trouble talking like that.

...or at least you'll start another flame war.

 

[jkhamlin]

You're going to get into trouble talking like that.

...or at least you'll start another flame war.

It's a plain and simple, undeniable fact.

 

[Northerner]

It's a plain and simple, undeniable fact.

Yeah, you're probably right. All that OMM time is time well spent NOT learning the rest of your medical curriculum, which, while apparently fashioned to be analogous to an MD curriculum, doesn't homologously prepare you for the USMLE Step I.

We could go on all day back and forth like this, but I won't. I'm just going to say that in the interest of collegial respect, I'm sure we'd all be happier if you refrained from assigning superiority to one or the other.

 

[Taus]

Yeah, you're probably right. All that OMM time is time well spent NOT learning the rest of your medical curriculum, which, while apparently fashioned to be analogous to an MD curriculum, doesn't homologously prepare you for the USMLE Step I.

We could go on all day back and forth like this, but I won't. I'm just going to say that in the interest of collegial respect, I'm sure we'd all be happier if you refrained from assigning superiority to one or the other.

A couple hours of OMM lab every week and an hour or so of lecture or pre-lab doesn't really cut into anything. I've heard that some MD schools spend some more time on biochem/molecular/genetics and research tecniques....for all I'm concerned...you can have that...

 

[Northerner]

A couple hours of OMM lab every week and an hour or so of lecture or pre-lab doesn't really cut into anything. I've heard that some MD schools spend some more time on biochem/molecular/genetics and research tecniques....for all I'm concerned...you can have that...

If you say so. The point is it's malignant, inflammatory, and downright ridiculous to say a D.O.'s medical education is superior to an M.D.'s, which is basically what he was saying. We should agree (giving both the benefit of the doubt, in light of any real evidence against it) that both are analogously educated and have equivalent education.

 

[cyclohexanol]

If you say so. The point is it's malignant, inflammatory, and downright ridiculous to say a D.O.'s medical education is superior to an M.D.'s, which is basically what he was saying. We should agree (giving both the benefit of the doubt, in light of any real evidence against it) that both are analogously educated and have equivalent education.

 

[Taus]

If you say so. The point is it's malignant, inflammatory, and downright ridiculous to say a D.O.'s medical education is superior to an M.D.'s, which is basically what he was saying. We should agree (giving both the benefit of the doubt, in light of any real evidence against it) that both are analogously educated and have equivalent education.

fully agree

 

[DropkickMurphy]

If you say so. The point is it's malignant, inflammatory, and downright ridiculous to say a D.O.'s medical education is superior to an M.D.'s, which is basically what he was saying. We should agree (giving both the benefit of the doubt, in light of any real evidence against it) that both are analogously educated and have equivalent education.

Agreed.

 

[iwantneurosurg]

what's OMM lab?
(sorry northerner, i like looking up other posts of people who respond to me)

its dangerous to assert superiority of DO's over MD's. looking at USMLE board scores implies otherwise. then again, i don't know anything about DO's except its nearly impossible for them to get into allopathic residencies. i'd assume vice verse too.

 

[Doc2007]

what's OMM lab?
(sorry northerner, i like looking up other posts of people who respond to me)

its dangerous to assert superiority of DO's over MD's. looking at USMLE board scores implies otherwise. then again, i don't know anything about DO's except its nearly impossible for them to get into allopathic residencies. i'd assume vice verse too.

More than 50% of DOs match into allopathic residencies. You are correct about USMLE score but our education is geared towards COMLEX. Hope this helps.

 

[Northerner]

what's OMM lab?
(sorry northerner, i like looking up other posts of people who respond to me)

its dangerous to assert superiority of DO's over MD's. looking at USMLE board scores implies otherwise. then again, i don't know anything about DO's except its nearly impossible for them to get into allopathic residencies. i'd assume vice verse too.

Don't stir the pot, dammit. I just negotiated a peace treaty and you come in waving a gun around....

 

[Jack Daniel]

Uhhhh, but we do learn everything an MD learns and more.

You're going to get into trouble talking like that.
...or at least you'll start another flame war.

It's a plain and simple, undeniable fact.

If you say so. The point is it's malignant, inflammatory, and downright ridiculous to say a D.O.'s medical education is superior to an M.D.'s, which is basically what he was saying. We should agree (giving both the benefit of the doubt, in light of any real evidence against it) that both are analogously educated and have equivalent education.

As I read the posts, you, Northerner, are the only one calling DO medical education superior. Everyone should realize that medical curricula are similar but not identical. Each program will stress some subjects over others.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Don't stir the pot, dammit. I just negotiated a peace treaty and you come in waving a gun around....

You might do well to ignore my post, then. I'm going back to bed.

 

[Jack Daniel]

....i don't know anything about DO's except its nearly impossible for them to get into allopathic residencies. i'd assume vice verse too.

Oh, for heaven's sake...

 

[drusso]

For the love of floobydoobies, please stop. Everyone will play in the same sand-box called "health care" regardless of type of degree earned.

Please put your energies toward causes that all physicians care about: Scope of practice, professional liability reform, eroding professionalism, etc.

I'm convinced that some DO's must pass through "stages of acceptance" about their medical degree initials. The thing I like best about mine is that it makes my lab coat really easy to find when I hang it up at the hospital with all the others that have "MD" on them...

 

[bla_3x]

Banana Hammock!

 

[iwantneurosurg]

Don't stir the pot, dammit. I just negotiated a peace treaty and you come in waving a gun around....

haha sorry wasn't my intention.
still...my question remains; what's OMM lab?

 

[jkhamlin]

Yeah, you're probably right. All that OMM time is time well spent NOT learning the rest of your medical curriculum, which, while apparently fashioned to be analogous to an MD curriculum, doesn't homologously prepare you for the USMLE Step I.

We could go on all day back and forth like this, but I won't. I'm just going to say that in the interest of collegial respect, I'm sure we'd all be happier if you refrained from assigning superiority to one or the other.

That's where you are wrong. I just stated a fact. I didn't assign superiority. You drew that conclusion yourself, probably because you are insecure. Facts are facts, not conclusions.

 

[Northerner]

That's where you are wrong. I just stated a fact. I didn't assign superiority. You drew that conclusion yourself, probably because you are insecure. Facts are facts, not conclusions.

Determined to start a flame war, huh?

Have it your way.

*groans from the gallery*

You stated (coincidentally, out of your own insecurity, a word people like to throw around in an effort to destabilize someone's credibility without arguing the issues) that a DO learns everything an MD does plus more. How is that not saying it's superior? Was it your assumption that we'd all balance it out in our heads by intuitive knowledge that while a DO "learns everything an MD does plus more", that education is in some way deficient? I'd love to hear you ACTUALLY clarify how your statement was NOT assigning superiority to the DO degree, instead of you claiming my logical interpretation was made out of insecurity.

 

[Northerner]

I'd also like to apologize to the DO community who apparently has to bear yet another MD/DO flame war, especially those of you who agree with me that implying superiority of either hurts everyone.

 

[jkhamlin]

Determined to start a flame war, huh?

Have it your way.

*groans from the gallery*

You stated (coincidentally, out of your own insecurity, a word people like to throw around in an effort to destabilize someone's credibility without arguing the issues) that a DO learns everything an MD does plus more. How is that not saying it's superior? Was it your assumption that we'd all balance it out in our heads by intuitive knowledge that while a DO "learns everything an MD does plus more", that education is in some way deficient? I'd love to hear you ACTUALLY clarify how your statement was NOT assigning superiority to the DO degree, instead of you claiming my logical interpretation was made out of insecurity.

You said it yourself. You came to the conclusion yourself, not me. As I said, I merely stated an indisputable fact. I said you are probably insecure because insecure people like to argue with others over facts, as though that can change the circumstance. You feel that others control your situation, and that you must, somehow, change their attitude toward you and that will change the horrible facts that you have to face. You have no inner strength; you are extrinsically motivated. That is insecurity. You need to learn that facts are facts, and you cannot change them. They are not the result of everyone being out to get you.

 

[Northerner]

You said it yourself. You came to the conclusion yourself, not me. As I said, I merely stated an indisputable fact. I said you are probably insecure because insecure people like to argue with others over facts, as though that can change the circumstance. You feel that others control your situation, and that you must, somehow, change their attitude toward you and that will change the horrible facts that you have to face. You have no inner strength; you are extrinsically motivated. That is insecurity. You need to learn that facts are facts, and you cannot change them. They are not the result of everyone being out to get you.

Cute. No desire to actually argue the issue I posed, just throw insults. Now that's mature. You must be out to get me.

 

[jkhamlin]

Cute. No desire to actually argue the issue I posed, just throw insults. Now that's mature. You must be out to get me.

You asked.

 

[Taus]

easy now....down boy...

 

[Northerner]

You asked.

I asked you to address the issue, not throw around character attacks and act like a child. Gosh, if you keep this up, you'll have me convinced you have no idea what we're arguing about, what I've asked you several times to justify. Luckily, it looks like the majority of your colleagues here agree with me.

But shockingly, I have better things to do than try to pry out a line of actual reasoning behind a cocky pre-med opinion. What has become of me? Lowering myself to argue with a pre-med about his overinflating his degree.

 

[jkhamlin]

I asked you to address the issue, not throw around character attacks and act like a child. Gosh, if you keep this up, you'll have me convinced you have no idea what we're arguing about, what I've asked you several times to justify. Luckily, it looks like the majority of your colleagues here agree with me.

But shockingly, I have better things to do than try to pry out a line of actual reasoning behind a cocky pre-med opinion. What has become of me? Lowering myself to argue with a pre-med about his overinflating his degree.

You're the one throwing around personal attacks as evidenced in the above quote and your previous posts. You're also using false rhetoric such as claiming unanimity behind your statements. I already made my point, you just think that arguing with me can change a fact. You are jumping to a conclusion based on that fact, and then disagreeing with that conclusion. Basically, you are arguing with yourself.

 

[Taus]

For the love of floobydoobies, please stop. Everyone will play in the same sand-box called "health care" regardless of type of degree earned.

Please put your energies toward causes that all physicians care about: Scope of practice, professional liability reform, eroding professionalism, etc.

I'm convinced that some DO's must pass through "stages of acceptance" about their medical degree initials. The thing I like best about mine is that it makes my lab coat really easy to find when I hang it up at the hospital with all the others that have "MD" on them...

I agree w/ the stages thing...I've seen something like it w/ my own eyes over the past couple years....

It starts w/ defensiveness when questioned... proceeds through several varying steps depending on your reason for attending a DO school....and ends w/ a sense of humor about it..... years later when you're actually in practice it evolves into forgetting that there was ever an issue w/ it as you are too busy w/ patients to think about it

 

[Taus]

ffs.... at least have the decency to take this to PM's....

 

[Northerner]

You're the one throwing around personal attacks as evidenced in the above quote and your previous posts. You're also using false rhetoric such as claiming unanimity behind your statements. I already made my point, you just think that arguing with me can change a fact. You are jumping to a conclusion based on that fact, and then disagreeing with that conclusion. Basically, you are arguing with yourself.

False rhetoric? What about the string of 3 posts from DO's following my position?

Alright, let's break down your "point" into is basic elements, and see if you can follow a simple line of reasoning. You said "a DO learns everything an MD learns plus more". Now, let's say someone tells you this, and you know nothing about the two degrees. What does that directly suggest? The next question from a layperson would be, "oh, so a DO is better?" This isn't rocket science, and it's not a conclusion based on insecurity. You say it doesn't imply superiority. Great. Now tell us how so. If you can explain to me how saying "MD + more learning = DO" doesn't imply superiority, I'll be a happy camper.

Rest assured, you can always go back and read my previous posts if you have a hard time understanding what we're talking about, or my position. I'm your ally. I'm all for equality. But I'll be damned if I have to listen to someone impugn the MD to justify their degree to people who don't know what it is (the topic of this thread).

 

[Northerner]

I agree w/ the stages thing...I've seen something like it w/ my own eyes over the past couple years....

It starts w/ defensiveness when questioned... proceeds through several varying steps depending on your reason for attending a DO school....and ends w/ a sense of humor about it..... years later when you're actually in practice it evolves into forgetting that there was ever an issue w/ it as you are too busy w/ patients to think about it

Honestly.

The great thing is, however, that this sort of thing is usually kept to hushed whispers or the confines of someone's own ego in the real world. SDN gives people the anonymity and argument ammunition it takes to let something like this boil over into open acrimony. Hopefully the same people will be willing to accept each others as equals without prejudice, subtle derision, or superiority/inferiority complexes out in practice. But you're right - in the real world, people just...don't...care. To the point where they don't even think about it, or care to even notice it.

 

[Sirius Black]

haha sorry wasn't my intention.
still...my question remains; what's OMM lab?

Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine lab. Osteopathic medical students spend approximately 200 hours of their 4-year education (in addition to the standard courses taught in MD schools) learning non-invasive diagnosis and treatments for a host of musculoskeletal, lymphatic, and viscerosomatic dysfunctions.

Hence the sentiment of DOs being superior to MDs. I would say that, on average, a DO's education is of a higher quantity than that of an MD's, but that quality is determined by the individual colleges, faculty, and students themselves. USMLE scores among DO students may be lower on average, but that is because fewer DO students take the USMLE (because they would have to take this in addition to the COMLEX), thus a few lower scores affects the average more severely. I wonder how many MD students would even pass the COMLEX?

 

[Taus]

False rhetoric? What about the string of 3 posts from DO's following my position?

Alright, let's break down your "point" into is basic elements, and see if you can follow a simple line of reasoning. You said "a DO learns everything an MD learns plus more". Now, let's say someone tells you this, and you know nothing about the two degrees. What does that directly suggest? The next question from a layperson would be, "oh, so a DO is better?" This isn't rocket science, and it's not a conclusion based on insecurity. You say it doesn't imply superiority. Great. Now tell us how so. If you can explain to me how saying "MD + more learning = DO" doesn't imply superiority, I'll be a happy camper.

Rest assured, you can always go back and read my previous posts if you have a hard time understanding what we're talking about, or my position. I'm your ally. I'm all for equality. But I'll be damned if I have to listen to someone impugn the MD to justify their degree to people who don't know what it is (the topic of this thread).

Northerner...you are obviously a reasonable person...would you agree w/ this:

We learn medicine + OMM/musculoskelatal stuff and generally have a primary care focus vs. you learn medicine plus more research/lab techniques and generally focus more on specialty medicine

Sound reasonable/fair?

 

[Northerner]

Northerner...you are obviously a reasonable person...would you agree w/ this:

We learn medicine + OMM/musculoskelatal stuff and generally have a primary care focus vs. you learn medicine plus more research/lab techniques and generally focus more on specialty medicine

Sound reasonable/fair?

Yep. Sounds good to me.

 

[Taus]

Honestly.

The great thing is, however, that this sort of thing is usually kept to hushed whispers or the confines of someone's own ego in the real world. SDN gives people the anonymity and argument ammunition it takes to let something like this boil over into open acrimony. Hopefully the same people will be willing to accept each others as equals without prejudice, subtle derision, or superiority/inferiority complexes out in practice. But you're right - in the real world, people just...don't...care. To the point where they don't even think about it, or care to even notice it.

Agreed...In the real world I rarely discuss any of the topics that I do here on SDN

 

[jkhamlin]

False rhetoric? What about the string of 3 posts from DO's following my position?

Alright, let's break down your "point" into is basic elements, and see if you can follow a simple line of reasoning. You said "a DO learns everything an MD learns plus more". Now, let's say someone tells you this, and you know nothing about the two degrees. What does that directly suggest? The next question from a layperson would be, "oh, so a DO is better?" This isn't rocket science, and it's not a conclusion based on insecurity. You say it doesn't imply superiority. Great. Now tell us how so. If you can explain to me how saying "MD + more learning = DO" doesn't imply superiority, I'll be a happy camper.

Rest assured, you can always go back and read my previous posts if you have a hard time understanding what we're talking about, or my position. I'm your ally. I'm all for equality. But I'll be damned if I have to listen to someone impugn the MD to justify their degree to people who don't know what it is (the topic of this thread).

More personal attacks.

It is obvious that you are refusing to get the point. It is quite simple, but you don't want to get it. I will not feed you any more, troll.

 

[Doc2007]

MD = DO = Doctors = Healthcare professionals.

 

[HolisticMed]

Although I have tremendous interest in OMM and wouldnt trade my future degree for anything in the world.... the truth is that the vast majority of osteopaths are not. The evidence for this is overwhelming. The vast majority of osteopathic doctors simply write Dr.X - Internal Medicine(insert any specialty) rather than their name followed by D.O. Many of my family members and friends are currently under the care of ostoepathic doctors and they do not have any idea that they are D.O.'s nor do they even have a clue as to what the initials mean. When I say the vast majority of the public is ignorant regarding osteopathic medicine, its most probably an understatement. I would say well over 90% have no idea that such a degree even exists, let alone what it means. Unfortunately the title "MD" has garnered overwhelming cultural authority. Sources like "WEBMD", prescription drug commercials which are always sure to zoom in on a doctors name tags that states "MD", the fact that most osteopaths do not even put the letters after their name....all continue to contribute to widespread ignorance regarding this health discipline. The last line of hope we have of educating the public is osteopathic physicians themselves and well we know that this line of communication just isnt happening.

And while I do not believe that simply changing the degree intials to MDO is the answer, I actually do believe it needs to be done and is a great step in the right direction. The process is not as insurmountable as many will have you believe. Just over the last several years we have seen a shift to DPM(doctor of podiatric medicine), DVM (doctor of veterinary medicine), DOM (doctor of oriental medicine) and it is possible that we will soon see DCM (doctor of chiropractic medicine).

If there is any single school curriculum and/or real world practice which most closely mirrors that of traditional allopathic medicine... it is that of osteopathy.... if any professional initials should contain the word medicine in it, first and foremost it should be osteopathic doctors.

If the vast majority of students want this change to occur there is no reason why it should not. Osteopathic students need to do little else than to follow the footsteps currently underway in virtually all other profession health disciplines. Good Luck!

 

[Northerner]

More personal attacks.

It is obvious that you are refusing to get the point. It is quite simple, but you don't want to get it. I will not feed you any more, troll.

You're adorable. Still no response to the issue I posed.

Luckily, your opinion's unnecessary - Tau and I have reached an accord. And honestly, I'm hoping you won't respond (or without hostility, at least) so we can just leave it at a happy pact. But I like a good tussle, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[jkhamlin]

You're adorable. Still no response to the issue I posed.

Luckily, your opinion's unnecessary - Tau and I have reached an accord. And honestly, I'm hoping you won't respond (or without hostility, at least) so we can just leave it at a happy pact. But I like a good tussle, so I'm not holding my breath.

No food, troll.