[B]Advocates of DO Degree change to MD-O or O-MD[/B]

[Northerner]

No food, troll.

Gosh, I'm so disappointed you haven't responded. And surprised. Very, very surprised. Good luck in your career.

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[DragonWell]

Northerner...you are obviously a reasonable person...would you agree w/ this:

We learn medicine + OMM/musculoskelatal stuff and generally have a primary care focus vs. you learn medicine plus more research/lab techniques and generally focus more on specialty medicine

Sound reasonable/fair?

Is anybody disagreeing with this? It sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

[OHMAN0125]

I really don't think Northerner is a troll. If anything, he's trying to convey equality in the medical degrees. I don't understand why jkhamlin is out to get you.
I can see how ppl will think that your post about "MD+learn more" assigns superiority even if you did not mean it. Better to just be politically correct and avoid statements like that in general. It's kinda like politics i guess, can't be too careful, you're bound to piss someone off.

 

[jkhamlin]

Is anybody disagreeing with this? It sounds pretty accurate to me.

If that makes allopaths feel better, except for the part about Northerner being a "reasonable person."

 

[DragonWell]

If that makes allopaths feel better, except for the part about Northerner being a "reasonable person."

It's not about making one group "feel better", it's just an attempt to summarize the current state of affairs.

Please don't flame me for my observation, but for someone so quick to label others as "trolls", you really seem to enjoy stirring things up in a personal way.

 

[jkhamlin]

It's not about making one group "feel better", it's just an attempt to summarize the current state of affairs.

Please don't flame me for my observation, but for someone so quick to label others as "trolls", you really seem to enjoy stirring things up in a personal way.

I don't stir things up, I just don't back down when someone comes on here saying things that are obviously wrong. If they have a problem with that, and take it personal, then they are too sensitive. I only label someone a troll if they fit the bill.

 

[M3goingon4]

I don't stir things up, I just don't back down when someone comes on here saying things that are obviously wrong. If they have a problem with that, and take it personal, then they are too sensitive. I only label someone a troll if they fit the bill.

jkhamlin...

OVERALL, entrance requires are much more lax to DO schools
OVERALL, kids in DO schools did not perform as well as MD on their MCATS
OVERALL, DO kids haven't performed as well as their MD classmates in the same college classes
OVERALL, DO kids don't specialize
OVERALL, society places more trust in MDs
OVERALL, it's nearly impossible for a DO to become...say...an ophthalmologist
OVERALL, DO kids simply failed to get into allopathic schools
OVERALL, hard hitting deans, chairmen, etc. are MD's

where overall is defined as > 50% of said population.

have i said something wrong yet?

and for the guy who said DO kids will do worse on the USMLE's because they have to deal with two exams now. I think DO's who take the USMLE's actually desire to get an MD residency as they realized that OVERALL, theyre better, more popular, rotate at less than 30 different places unlike DO residency, and want to specialize.
this would make them more motivated, and place them in the upper margin of their DO class, indicating that their scores are artificially inflated, which is still markedly lower than a USMLE board score.

lastly, the subject matter of the USMLE is all clinical, with the non-clinical stuff being behavioral science and statistics (but this part is so minor).
benefit of the doubt, DO kids dont know how to deal with patients, or medical laws, or development, or biostatistics, or any behavioral science whatsoever, i dont think it still explains the disparity, on a wholly CLINICAL BASED TEST

i separated this because this is pure conjecture, and could indeed be wrong.

have fun.

 

[jkhamlin]

jkhamlin...

OVERALL, entrance requires are much more lax to DO schools
OVERALL, kids in DO schools did not perform as well as MD on their MCATS
OVERALL, DO kids haven't performed as well as their MD classmates in the same college classes
OVERALL, DO kids don't specialize
OVERALL, society places more trust in MDs
OVERALL, it's nearly impossible for a DO to become...say...an ophthalmologist
OVERALL, DO kids simply failed to get into allopathic schools
OVERALL, hard hitting deans, chairmen, etc. are MD's

where overall is defined as > 50% of said population.

have i said something wrong yet?

and for the guy who said DO kids will do worse on the USMLE's because they have to deal with two exams now. I think DO's who take the USMLE's actually desire to get an MD residency as they realized that OVERALL, theyre better, more popular, rotate at less than 30 different places unlike DO residency, and want to specialize.
this would make them more motivated, and place them in the upper margin of their DO class, indicating that their scores are artificially inflated, which is still markedly lower than a USMLE board score.

lastly, the subject matter of the USMLE is all clinical, with the non-clinical stuff being behavioral science and statistics (but this part is so minor).
benefit of the doubt, DO kids dont know how to deal with patients, or medical laws, or development, or biostatistics, or any behavioral science whatsoever, i dont think it still explains the disparity, on a wholly CLINICAL BASED TEST

i separated this because this is pure conjecture, and could indeed be wrong.

have fun.

You see, that right there is a perfect example of trolling. He makes as many inflamatory statements as he possibly can in one post, has only 14 posts to his name (this is his first in an Osteo forum), and tries to keep the flame war going by bringing in irrelevant, and highly debatable new tangents. He also has a flame war going on in urology already. That is about all of his posts.

 

[Doc2007]

The purpose of this thread was to discuss the designation of the degree. Can you guys please try to stay on the topic?

 

[M3goingon4]

haha u got me. was it the "have fun" at the end that gave it away?

unfortunately, most of what i said is true. well actually i dont know about DO programs, but this was my experience iwth them as we applied to med schools. the rest i notice reading here and there.

and i do believe it is true...debatable? its possible, but true wholly nevertheless

the urology flame war wasnt my intent going in. i just presented facts that weren't well received. it's like saying beta-blockers don't work as well in the african american population. oh my gosh did i play the race card!?

congrats for not takin the bait, altho i would like to hear the debatable points for my own knowledge of what DO people say to explain it, but in all true honesty, and not to patronize or belittle you, you seem to be able to read and comprehend at a level above many others. i respect you for that. no joke.

 

[jkhamlin]

The purpose of this thread was to discuss the designation of the degree. Can you guys please try to stay on the topic?

I'm pretty sure that topic has died.

 

[cyclohexanol]

I don't see how MD-O, O-MD, MD (Ost), or any other permutation of letters is going to help anything; it's just another aspect of the medical field for an already overwhelmed and ignorant lay public to try to understand. Plus, who cares... a doctor is a doctor.

 

[tkim]

This topic has drifted, as some might 5 pages into it.

I encourage and advise everyone who considers further posting in this thread to consider the TOS, the sticky entitled "MD vs DO - don't do it", and how jet-lagged and pissed I am to be delayed in Vegas when I could be home sleeping by now.

The smart ones amongst you will realize this is a bad, bad combo.

 

[pineapple]

My 2 cents...

I could care less!

Either way I'm a doctor and either way my friends will yell at me for overachieving

Any changes before I get my degree are fine with me.

Any changes after I don't want.

Example:

1- I don't want to change my name after I have my degree if I get married, because I want whatever is hanging on the wall to clearly show who I am.

2- same with DO...I wouldn't want to graduate a DO and have the initials changed to something else. That would be confusing, too.

*shrug* Then again I've wanted to be a DO to begin with so whatever.

PS - Imagine the paperwork if everything changed over. *shudder* That's reason enough to keep things as they are.

 

[Sirius Black]

Although I have tremendous interest in OMM and wouldnt trade my future degree for anything in the world.... the truth is that the vast majority of osteopaths are not. The evidence for this is overwhelming. The vast majority of osteopathic doctors simply write Dr.X - Internal Medicine(insert any specialty) rather than their name followed by D.O. Many of my family members and friends are currently under the care of ostoepathic doctors and they do not have any idea that they are D.O.'s nor do they even have a clue as to what the initials mean. When I say the vast majority of the public is ignorant regarding osteopathic medicine, its most probably an understatement. I would say well over 90% have no idea that such a degree even exists, let alone what it means. Unfortunately the title "MD" has garnered overwhelming cultural authority. Sources like "WEBMD", prescription drug commercials which are always sure to zoom in on a doctors name tags that states "MD", the fact that most osteopaths do not even put the letters after their name....all continue to contribute to widespread ignorance regarding this health discipline. The last line of hope we have of educating the public is osteopathic physicians themselves and well we know that this line of communication just isnt happening.

And while I do not believe that simply changing the degree intials to MDO is the answer, I actually do believe it needs to be done and is a great step in the right direction. The process is not as insurmountable as many will have you believe. Just over the last several years we have seen a shift to DPM(doctor of podiatric medicine), DVM (doctor of veterinary medicine), DOM (doctor of oriental medicine) and it is possible that we will soon see DCM (doctor of chiropractic medicine).

If there is any single school curriculum and/or real world practice which most closely mirrors that of traditional allopathic medicine... it is that of osteopathy.... if any professional initials should contain the word medicine in it, first and foremost it should be osteopathic doctors.

If the vast majority of students want this change to occur there is no reason why it should not. Osteopathic students need to do little else than to follow the footsteps currently underway in virtually all other profession health disciplines. Good Luck!

Couldn't have said it better myself, even if I threw in some bat flooby-doobies. Why is it that when a post is more than 1 paragraph, nobody pays attention to it? This is a good point: If podiatrists and other health professionals have "medicine" in their initials, isn't it only logical that the osteopathic medical profession should as well?

For all the DOs that simply put "Dr" on their coat to avoid the hassle of questioning, I think changing to "MDO" would completely change that. As an added benefit, patients might ask: "What does the "O" stand for?" The Dr will then go on to explain, and osteopathic medicine will gain more positive attention in the public eye. Isn't this what we all want?

To those of who keep saying "a Dr is a Dr", would you visit an optometrist (who are doctors, by the way) to get a physical? There are soooo many types of doctors, so the initials are vitally important for the public to understand the purpose of each.

 

[jkhamlin]

To those of who keep saying "a Dr is a Dr", would you visit an optometrist (who are doctors, by the way) to get a physical? There are soooo many types of doctors, so the initials are vitally important for the public to understand the purpose of each.

An optometrist is not a "doctor" in the "physician" sense of the word. An opthalmologist is.

 

[jkhamlin]

Couldn't have said it better myself, even if I threw in some bat flooby-doobies. Why is it that when a post is more than 1 paragraph, nobody pays attention to it? This is a good point: If podiatrists and other health professionals have "medicine" in their initials, isn't it only logical that the osteopathic medical profession should as well?

For all the DOs that simply put "Dr" on their coat to avoid the hassle of questioning, I think changing to "MDO" would completely change that. As an added benefit, patients might ask: "What does the "O" stand for?" The Dr will then go on to explain, and osteopathic medicine will gain more positive attention in the public eye. Isn't this what we all want?

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

The AOA, after an intense letter writing campaign to Hollywood asking for DO's to be represented as characters in more films and TV got their wish:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0404756/

 

[Sirius Black]

An optometrist is not a "doctor" in the "physician" sense of the word. An opthalmologist is.

No, really? My point was that the term "doctor" is given to anyone who has earned a doctorate, be it in medicine, optometry, or astronomy. So one cannot simply say "a Dr is a Dr" because there are so many different types. This is why it's so important for the other letters in a title to clarify what type of doctor it is. Hence, "medicine" or "physician" needs to be in the title of DO somewhere, to clarify our purpose. "Physician" wouldn't work though, because that it is a profession, rather than a field of study.

 

[Sirius Black]

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

The AOA, after an intense letter writing campaign to Hollywood asking for DO's to be represented as characters in more films and TV got their wish:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0404756/

I don't get it. Where does it say he's a DO?

 

[jkhamlin]

I don't get it. Where does it say he's a DO?

In the movie.

 

[tkim]

You would have to understand the personal relationships in order to understand why this all came to be.

Bruce Campbell, who plays the astronaut osteopath, is best known for his "Ash" character in the Evil Dead series, including Army of Darkness, which were directed by Sam Raimi.

Sam Raimi's brother, Ivan, who co-wrote Army of Darkness, graduated from MSU-COM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Raimi

The AOA, sadly, had nothing to do with it.

I'm a Evil Dead/Army of Darkness fan. Can you tell?

 

[jkhamlin]

You would have to understand the personal relationships in order to understand why this all came to be.

Bruce Campbell, who plays the astronaut osteopath, is best known for his "Ash" character in the Evil Dead series, including Army of Darkness, which were directed by Sam Raimi.

Sam Raimi's brother, Ivan, who co-wrote Army of Darkness, graduated from MSU-COM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Raimi

The AOA, sadly, had nothing to do with it.

I'm a Evil Dead/Army of Darkness fan. Can you tell?

I liked that movie, too, but I didn't know that about Sam Raimi's brother. You would think he would have portrayed DO's in a little more positive light knowing that.

 

[tkim]

I liked that movie, too, but I didn't know that about Sam Raimi's brother. You would think he would have portrayed DO's in a little more positive light knowing that.

These are the *Raimi's*. If you know anything about their movies or their writing style, their portrayal makes perfect sense.

 

[jkhamlin]

These are the *Raimi's*. If you know anything about their movies or their writing style, their portrayal makes perfect sense.

I am not as big a follower as you are, but I have seen Army of Darkness, as well as Darkman, and the Spiderman movies. I also used to watch the Hercules and Xena shows, but I am not sure I get why this makes perfect sense. Can you explain it to us?

 

[OHMAN0125]

No, really? My point was that the term "doctor" is given to anyone who has earned a doctorate, be it in medicine, optometry, or astronomy. So one cannot simply say "a Dr is a Dr" because there are so many different types. This is why it's so important for the other letters in a title to clarify what type of doctor it is. Hence, "medicine" or "physician" needs to be in the title of DO somewhere, to clarify our purpose. "Physician" wouldn't work though, because that it is a profession, rather than a field of study.

Sirius Black just wants that "MD" ....lol At least that's what I think.
What did your dean say about it?

 

[Jamers]

You would have to understand the personal relationships in order to understand why this all came to be.

Bruce Campbell, who plays the astronaut osteopath, is best known for his "Ash" character in the Evil Dead series, including Army of Darkness, which were directed by Sam Raimi.

Sam Raimi's brother, Ivan, who co-wrote Army of Darkness, graduated from MSU-COM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Raimi

The AOA, sadly, had nothing to do with it.

I'm a Evil Dead/Army of Darkness fan. Can you tell?

Bruce Campbell is a God. The end.

 

[tkim]

I am not as big a follower as you are, but I have seen Army of Darkness, as well as Darkman, and the Spiderman movies. I also used to watch the Hercules and Xena shows, but I am not sure I get why this makes perfect sense. Can you explain it to us?

They take nothing seriously. It's pretty apparent in all of their films. Geez you don't have to look too deeply into it.

 

[jkhamlin]

They take nothing seriously. It's pretty apparent in all of their films. Geez you don't have to look too deeply into it.

Maybe that was my problem.

 

[Red Beard]

jkhamlin...

OVERALL, entrance requires are much more lax to DO schools
OVERALL, kids in DO schools did not perform as well as MD on their MCATS
OVERALL, DO kids haven't performed as well as their MD classmates in the same college classes
OVERALL, DO kids don't specialize
OVERALL, society places more trust in MDs
OVERALL, it's nearly impossible for a DO to become...say...an ophthalmologist
OVERALL, DO kids simply failed to get into allopathic schools
OVERALL, hard hitting deans, chairmen, etc. are MD's

where overall is defined as > 50% of said population.

have i said something wrong yet?

Just had a couple comments on the above:

-I'm not sure what you mean by "much more lax", but the sources I see show that the difference in average admission statistics between MD and DO schools is a couple of points on the MCAT and a few tenths of a point in GPA. Remember, for every Harvard/Stanford you've got ten state schools and at least one Jefferson.

-DOs do specialize, but not to the same extent as MDs. I don't think you could make a supported argument that this is due to a real inferiority in the quality of the students and not baseless bias from the old school (which is disappearing). Anyway, so what?

-Society is more aware of MDs, absolutely. Trust? I don't think you can really make a compelling argument about who 'society' trusts, but its clear that patients choose DOs all the time, so a lot of people must trust them. What I'd be curious to see is data on malpractice prevalence between the two professions. My wild guess is its they are the same. Maybe I'll try to dig that up...

-By "hard hitting deans"...well, who cares. I sure don't

-You are absolutely right about the MD rejection thing, a lot of my classmates probably ranked MD programs higher than ours but didn't make it. Then again, most of them didn't bother applying to some of the weaker MD programs to which they probably would have been offered a seat. Why? Various reasons...geography probably being the biggest one, but certainly a level of maturity that allowed them to take all these SDN flamefests with a grain of salt.

Anyhow...I have to get back to the books. Take care.

 

[Northerner]

Just had a couple comments on the above:

-I'm not sure what you mean by "much more lax", but the sources I see show that the difference in average admission statistics between MD and DO schools is a couple of points on the MCAT and a few tenths of a point in GPA. Remember, for every Harvard/Stanford you've got ten state schools and at least one Jefferson.

-DOs do specialize, but not to the same extent as MDs. I don't think you could make a supported argument that this is due to a real inferiority in the quality of the students and not baseless bias from the old school (which is disappearing). Anyway, so what?

-Society is more aware of MDs, absolutely. Trust? I don't think you can really make a compelling argument about who 'society' trusts, but its clear that patients choose DOs all the time, so a lot of people must trust them. What I'd be curious to see is data on malpractice prevalence between the two professions. My wild guess is its they are the same. Maybe I'll try to dig that up...

-By "hard hitting deans"...well, who cares. I sure don't

-You are absolutely right about the MD rejection thing, a lot of my classmates probably ranked MD programs higher than ours but didn't make it. Then again, most of them didn't bother applying to some of the weaker MD programs to which they probably would have been offered a seat. Why? Various reasons...geography probably being the biggest one, but certainly a level of maturity that allowed them to take all these SDN flamefests with a grain of salt.

Anyhow...I have to get back to the books. Take care.

You should have let sleeping dogs lie.

And your "counterpoints" were weak. Weak like a woman.

 

[Red Beard]

You should have let sleeping dogs lie.

And your "counterpoints" were weak. Weak like a woman.

I guess you think I am wanting/trying to argue?

I agree on the sleeping dogs thing...

 

[8744]

The problem with MDO or OMD or DOM is that those degree designations are already used for "Doctors of Oriental Medicine." I don't think that clarifies the issue:

http://www.alternativemedicinecollege.com/distance_learning/levels/doctor-oriental-medicine.html

Patients need to take a little responsibility in understanding the credentials of their healthcare providers. There are DDS and DMD in dentistry. There are PsyD's and PhD's in psychology. There are PharmD's and RPh's in pharmacy.

Changing the degree with not fix the underlying issues in osteopathic medicine.

Funny on so many levels.

 

[8744]

Besides, MDs and Dos need to stick together to beat down those uppity PAs and NPs.

For the record, I am pretty well educated, well-travelled, and (used to be) fairly well versed in current events but I never heard of osteopathic medicine until I was well into the medical school application process at the age of 36. I think in some states osteopathy is fairly well known and accepted but this is not universal.

I visited MSU-COM yesterday to teach BLS. I thought the students (second year) were very intelligent, motivated, and seemed no different than any medical students I have met. But what's with your facilities? Other than the manipulation lab the rest of the place looked like a run-down 1950s era high school built for giants.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I visited MSU-COM yesterday to teach BLS. I thought the students (second year) were very intelligent, motivated, and seemed no different than any medical students I have met. But what's with your facilities? Other than the manipulation lab the rest of the place looked like a run-down 1950s era high school built for giants.

MSU-COM shares the same facilities as MSU-CHM from my understanding so some schools are just older than others. Many osteopath schools don't get the funding of their MD counterparts even IF they are a state school.

 

[M3goingon4]

Just had a couple comments on the above:

-I'm not sure what you mean by "much more lax", but the sources I see show that the difference in average admission statistics between MD and DO schools is a couple of points on the MCAT and a few tenths of a point in GPA. Remember, for every Harvard/Stanford you've got ten state schools and at least one Jefferson.

-DOs do specialize, but not to the same extent as MDs. I don't think you could make a supported argument that this is due to a real inferiority in the quality of the students and not baseless bias from the old school (which is disappearing). Anyway, so what?

-Society is more aware of MDs, absolutely. Trust? I don't think you can really make a compelling argument about who 'society' trusts, but its clear that patients choose DOs all the time, so a lot of people must trust them. What I'd be curious to see is data on malpractice prevalence between the two professions. My wild guess is its they are the same. Maybe I'll try to dig that up...

-By "hard hitting deans"...well, who cares. I sure don't

-You are absolutely right about the MD rejection thing, a lot of my classmates probably ranked MD programs higher than ours but didn't make it. Then again, most of them didn't bother applying to some of the weaker MD programs to which they probably would have been offered a seat. Why? Various reasons...geography probably being the biggest one, but certainly a level of maturity that allowed them to take all these SDN flamefests with a grain of salt.

Anyhow...I have to get back to the books. Take care.

the sleeping dog has awoken, and found a stream of spittle on his pathology textbook.

as northerner said, your points are kind of weak.
west virginia and michigan state osteopathics, which are both well renowned pretty good osteopathic schools which i've heard, have acceptance rates of about 15% and 17% respectively. compare this to...

drexel medicine (clearly a lower-tier school) with a rate of less than 8%, temple, also less than 8%, and Jefferson, about 6%.

This isn't a fair assumption, but I'd be willing to bet that AT MINIMUM the lower half of those top osteopathic schools couldn't get into lower tier medical schools.

Also - out of state tuition at those places is 50 grand!? yikes! are state-med schools (MD) that expensive?? i dont know, someone please tell me; i thought it was a flat ~35 grand, unless u got baylor.

by percentage - its largely MD still. Yes i've read that ppl going to DO's have gone up by some good percentage but consider this:

In 2006, I've seen one person take a crap on the street in broad daylight.
In 2005, I've seen two people take a crap on the street, also in broad daylight.

From 2005-2006, the incidence of street-crappage has gone down 50%.

So those stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. I think it's coming to the point where DOs will be the general unspecialized doctors whereas the MDs will move more heavily into specialty. then again, that's a long ways from now as the number of DOs still hasnt come close to hitting mainstream yet
(i cant think of a single movie/tv show/commercial featuring a DO)

 

[bla_3x]

So those stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. I think it's coming to the point where DOs will be the general unspecialized doctors whereas the MDs will move more heavily into specialty. then again, that's a long ways from now as the number of DOs still hasnt come close to hitting mainstream yet

Regarding the stats...agree, they don't mean much, just too many factors to consider that confound the whole thing.

I disagree however about your last statement. I am confident that we will just see more and more DOs in the various medical specialties as the number of DO grads increase.
We need to be careful however, b/c it tends to become apparent in these discussions that somehow schools that land more primary care slots somehow have less competitive students. Remember, a great deal of those going into PC want to, that's their dream. Am I saying that there are not those that are in PC b/c they failed to get a spot in something else? No. This s just yet another one of the numerous virtually unquantifiable variable in the process that make assumptions so useless.
Some of the top ranking people in my class are going into fp, , and they would stand up with anyone with regards to medical acumen!
I don't think that it has been said, but lets just be careful not to find ourselves making these kind of assumptions.

 

[OHMAN0125]

Regarding the stats...agree, they don't mean much, just too many factors to consider that confound the whole thing.

I disagree however about your last statement. I am confident that we will just see more and more DOs in the various medical specialties as the number of DO grads increase.
We need to be careful however, b/c it tends to become apparent in these discussions that somehow schools that land more primary care slots somehow have less competitive students. Remember, a great deal of those going into PC want to, that's their dream. Am I saying that there are not those that are in PC b/c they failed to get a spot in something else? No. This s just yet another one of the numerous virtually unquantifiable variable in the process that make assumptions so useless.
Some of the top ranking people in my class are going into fp, , and they would stand up with anyone with regards to medical acumen!
I don't think that it has been said, but lets just be careful not to find ourselves making these kind of assumptions.

I don't think it's an assumption. I mean most osteopathic schools HIGHLY encourage their graduates to go into primary care. I know this doesn't mean they have to but it is definetly harder to specialize as a DO (although many do, i'm just saying in general). Especially the newer schools opening all focus their rotations in ambulatory, rural, primary care. Now tell me it's not harder to specialize when more than half your rotations are in a community health center. Just the way it is i think. I find that if you talk to DOs that have gone on to specialize they will tell you that there are more hoops to jump through. But if you're motivated i'm sure as a DO you can still do any field.

 

[bla_3x]

I don't think it's an assumption. I mean most osteopathic schools HIGHLY encourage their graduates to go into primary care. I know this doesn't mean they have to but it is definitely harder to specialize as a DO (although many do, I'm just saying in general). Especially the newer schools opening all focus their rotations in ambulatory, rural, primary care. Now tell me it's not harder to specialize when more than half your rotations are in a community health center. Just the way it is i think. I find that if you talk to DOs that have gone on to specialize they will tell you that there are more hoops to jump through. But if you're motivated i'm sure as a DO you can still do any field.

I don't think that we are too far off each other.
I think you said it in your post...I the schools would ease off cramming pc down our throats like we are in some govt reconditioning program, you would see a lot more of us applying to specialties.

I can only speak from example, but I have not encountered any more hoops to jump through as a DO student applying to allo EM...not the easiest of roads.

I only know of my school, a newer one with just about all rotations in preceptor based ambulatory, where it is not hard for our grads to get spots in specialties.
Granted, along with this type of rotation structure comes an enormous amount of flexibility. I rotated at several different "programs" as a 3rd and 4th year. This is actually very advantageous as the proof is in the pudding with regards to ability of a particular student.

I have always taken issue with the whole its just plain harder for DOs to specialize thing. I am sure there is some truth to it. But bear in mind, with regards to a lot of highly competitive specialties (rads derm, rad onc, etc) its freakin hard for John Q MD student to land a spot there as well.
I actually notice a lot of my allo counterparts much more freaked out about the whole process than I.

 

[OHMAN0125]

I don't think that we are too far off each other.
I think you said it in your post...I the schools would ease off cramming pc down our throats like we are in some govt reconditioning program, you would see a lot more of us applying to specialties.

I can only speak from example, but I have not encountered any more hoops to jump through as a DO student applying to allo EM...not the easiest of roads.

I only know of my school, a newer one with just about all rotations in preceptor based ambulatory, where it is not hard for our grads to get spots in specialties.
Granted, along with this type of rotation structure comes an enormous amount of flexibility. I rotated at several different "programs" as a 3rd and 4th year. This is actually very advantageous as the proof is in the pudding with regards to ability of a particular student.

I have always taken issue with the whole its just plain harder for DOs to specialize thing. I am sure there is some truth to it. But bear in mind, with regards to a lot of highly competitive specialties (rads derm, rad onc, etc) its freakin hard for John Q MD student to land a spot there as well.
I actually notice a lot of my allo counterparts much more freaked out about the whole process than I.

I think allo students are just much more freaked out in general. Lol. J/k.
Yeah I think DOs can specialize but it IS harder in general. Even for EM i think. Take exactly 2 of the same students, only difference is one is MD and one DO. I think a typical university based program (not osteopathic program obviously) will take the MD over DO with everything else being the same. But to get a spot wherever is probably not that big of a challenge for DOs that want to go into EM.

 

[NYCDoc80]

I guess as a 4th year I've always seen these arguments...but in the end all that matters is 1.) I get my top residency specialty choice 2.) Get paid so I can pay back all my loans...patients could care less what degree you are and if they are paying me as a physician that's all that matters, no matter what my degree says...in the long run when your 50 and have an established practice no one cares what your degree is, its are you competant and have good bedside manner to be a doctor...if you are a DO and bad or MD and bad, it won't matter what you have after your name.

 

[TUNVMS1]

We all "as students" need to talk to our local SGA to get the degree changed to M.D.O. or M.D.,D.O.

It has nothing to do w/ getting a residency or whatever, it has to do w/ giving patients the confidence in the initials and avoiding confusion.

 

[DNA Helicase]

How does that fix any of the underlying problems in osteopathic medicine??

What ARE the underlying problems in osteopathic medicine?

 

[DNA Helicase]

The problem with this that I can see is that it has been tried before in California, with disastrous results.

I didn't know anything disastrous happened. What were the disastrous results? I'm not trying to argue here, I just actually want to know.

 

[pushinepi2]

jkhamlin...

OVERALL, entrance requires are much more lax to DO schools
OVERALL, kids in DO schools did not perform as well as MD on their MCATS
OVERALL, DO kids haven't performed as well as their MD classmates in the same college classes
OVERALL, DO kids don't specialize
OVERALL, society places more trust in MDs
OVERALL, it's nearly impossible for a DO to become...say...an ophthalmologist
OVERALL, DO kids simply failed to get into allopathic schools
OVERALL, hard hitting deans, chairmen, etc. are MD's

where overall is defined as > 50% of said population.

have i said something wrong yet?....

and for the guy who said DO kids will do worse on the USMLE's because they have to deal with two exams now. I think DO's who take the USMLE's actually desire to get an MD residency as they realized that OVERALL, theyre better, more popular, rotate at less than 30 different places unlike DO residency, and want to specialize.
this would make them more motivated, and place them in the upper margin of their DO class, indicating that their scores are artificially inflated, which is still markedly lower than a USMLE board score...

i separated this because this is pure conjecture, and could indeed be wrong.

have fun.

Your M3goingon4 title is a good one. It emphasizes that your clinical experience matches the depth of your professional insight. Your post, besides inciting replies, does nothing to answer the original poster's question.
Its sad and a little unfortunate that these tired assumptions are perpetuated by someone in medical school no less!

Finally, some equally tiring retorts about your "lack of DOs on TV shows." Dr. J. Fong, an osteopathic physician, has served as the long time technical advisor to the television show, "ER." You may have heard of it. One of the "Dr. 90210" physicians is an osteopathic plastic surgeon. Don't forget Bruce Campbell, the osteopathic astronaut, on "Alien Invasion." Talk about prestige.

 

[DNA Helicase]

An optometrist is not a "doctor" in the "physician" sense of the word. An opthalmologist is.

I think that at NSU they give you coats that say "optometric physician."

 

[ruck]

I suggest you go on AOA website and search for DO opthamologists...hell even DO dermatologists and see if it is "nearly impossible" to specialize in those fields or any field for that matter.

jkhamlin...

OVERALL, entrance requires are much more lax to DO schools
OVERALL, kids in DO schools did not perform as well as MD on their MCATS
OVERALL, DO kids haven't performed as well as their MD classmates in the same college classes
OVERALL, DO kids don't specialize
OVERALL, society places more trust in MDs
OVERALL, it's nearly impossible for a DO to become...say...an ophthalmologist
OVERALL, DO kids simply failed to get into allopathic schools
OVERALL, hard hitting deans, chairmen, etc. are MD's

where overall is defined as > 50% of said population.

have i said something wrong yet?

and for the guy who said DO kids will do worse on the USMLE's because they have to deal with two exams now. I think DO's who take the USMLE's actually desire to get an MD residency as they realized that OVERALL, theyre better, more popular, rotate at less than 30 different places unlike DO residency, and want to specialize.
this would make them more motivated, and place them in the upper margin of their DO class, indicating that their scores are artificially inflated, which is still markedly lower than a USMLE board score.

lastly, the subject matter of the USMLE is all clinical, with the non-clinical stuff being behavioral science and statistics (but this part is so minor).
benefit of the doubt, DO kids dont know how to deal with patients, or medical laws, or development, or biostatistics, or any behavioral science whatsoever, i dont think it still explains the disparity, on a wholly CLINICAL BASED TEST

i separated this because this is pure conjecture, and could indeed be wrong.

have fun.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I didn't know anything disastrous happened. What were the disastrous results? I'm not trying to argue here, I just actually want to know.

Maybe disastrous isn't the best word to use, but the results were not satisfactory to many DOs because:

• Ultimately, the CA Supreme Court overturned the decision and allowed DOs to remain a profession.
• Of the DOs turned MDs, some found they weren't fully accepted in the establishment.
• The DOs who specialized weren't given full parity in the MD specialty association.

I think the CA referendum was beneficial to DOs because it was used in other states to prove that DOs were professionally equivalent to MDs and should be given the same legal status.

 

[jaydoc07]

I really don't understand what the whole debate is about. If you want the letters MD after your name, go to an allo school. Conversely, if you want to be a DO and practice OMT, etc then go to an osteopathic school.

Just because you receive similar training doesn't mean you should adopt the letters MD. If you really are an "MD and more," then why aren't there all kinds of posts on the allo forum about adding an OMM lecture or two and giving us that "O". I would think one would be proud of their degree.

Personally, I have worked with a few DOs and find no differences in the ability to take care of patients, which is what this is all about. I just fear the future of flooding the market with inferior physicians if all kinds of schools keep popping up and allowing less than qualified candidates to get a medical degree.

 

[Sirius Black]

I really don't understand what the whole debate is about. If you want the letters MD after your name, go to an allo school. Conversely, if you want to be a DO and practice OMT, etc then go to an osteopathic school.

Just because you receive similar training doesn't mean you should adopt the letters MD. If you really are an "MD and more," then why aren't there all kinds of posts on the allo forum about adding an OMM lecture or two and giving us that "O". I would think one would be proud of their degree.

Personally, I have worked with a few DOs and find no differences in the ability to take care of patients, which is what this is all about. I just fear the future of flooding the market with inferior physicians if all kinds of schools keep popping up and allowing less than qualified candidates to get a medical degree.

In a nutshell, this is about the fact that the letters "DO" inaccurately represent our profession. Our degree says "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" and we study pharmacology and clinical medicine as meticulously as our allopathic counterparts, hence an "M" is only a logical addition.

An MD student would need a heck of a lot more than "adding an OMM lecture or two" in order to be qualified to get an "O" in their title. They would need at least 100 hours of OMM lab to get a sufficient grasp on palpatory skills, diagnosis of somatic dysfunction, and treatment modalities. Even though allopathic students may not be talking about this on forums, the AMA and administrators of allopathic schools are definitely planning on adding more anatomy and musculoskeletal lectures to their curricula in order to produce physicians with the same knowledge base as DOs.

 

[Northerner]

In a nutshell, this is about the fact that the letters "DO" inaccurately represent our profession. Our degree says "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" and we study pharmacology and clinical medicine as meticulously as our allopathic counterparts, hence an "M" is only a logical addition.

An MD student would need a heck of a lot more than "adding an OMM lecture or two" in order to be qualified to get an "O" in their title. They would need at least 100 hours of OMM lab to get a sufficient grasp on palpatory skills, diagnosis of somatic dysfunction, and treatment modalities. Even though allopathic students may not be talking about this on forums, the AMA and administrators of allopathic schools are definitely planning on adding more anatomy and musculoskeletal lectures to their curricula in order to produce physicians with the same knowledge base as DOs.

Another person claiming a DO education is more than an MD education. When will you people learn - if you don't want inflammatory responses from MDs/MD students, don't impugn their degree. If you want to be taken as total equals, speak about the equivalence of the education. Conversely, if you want MD students to come in here and challenge your degree, by all means, continue to challenge theirs. That's about the nicest way I could possibly put it.