Back to Basic Strategy WW Sign up and GAME THREAD

[DVMDream]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Do I think there is likely an experienced wolf, yes, but there are also gut feels that make me think someone from that list is a wolf.

There very well could be an experienced wolf, I am not going to deny that, I actually agree that there probably is. However, you have cornered off four people as "experienced" and forgotten others.. kaydubs is no noob. STL I consider "experienced" as well, even if he somehow just idiot savants his way to things. And don't let WZ fool you, she knows her **** and how to play a good wolf.

I don't like the intense focus on a select group of veterans because it often results in people lynching villager veteran after villager veteran until you are left with a group of noobs floundering away attempting to find wolves. We need our good villager veterans too. So, yes, I have considered that there is possibly a wolf veteran, but do not get tunnel vision and go on a veteran lynch mob as has occurred in previous games because it often just results in a villager massacre. And don't discount other experienced players... kaydubs and WZ aren't noobs to the game and can very well play things out as a wolf. As could SOV, LIS, rojo or myself. But that is 6 players that you are now looking at and simply randomly lynching off until you might luck yourself into a wolf... that isn't a proper way to play. We need to consider everyone and evaluate peoples' posting first and foremost instead of just hoping we will luck our way onto the "possible veteran" wolf.

And I think I rambled again, hopefully that is making some sense.

 

[1doggeek]

I just....I can't. I just texted dyachei, I'm out. Enjoy the rest of the game.


***
Thanks for the messages on the Rant thread, you guys. I do appreciate it. I think I just need to step away from EVERYTHING for awhile. I'm sorry how I've played this game. I should never have played in the first place.
***

*************
Take care of yourself kaydubs! hope life starts going better for you soon.
*************

 

[Glammyre]

I just....I can't. I just texted dyachei, I'm out. Enjoy the rest of the game.


***
Thanks for the messages on the Rant thread, you guys. I do appreciate it. I think I just need to step away from EVERYTHING for awhile. I'm sorry how I've played this game. I should never have played in the first place.
***

I'm sorry to hear that. Hope your migranes get better!

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Thread still open?

*******
Ok, first Kaydubs, feel better! I have enjoyed you in each of the games you have been a part of recently. Get better, do awesome, and come back to us!
********

Second:

There very well could be an experienced wolf, I am not going to deny that, I actually agree that there probably is. However, you have cornered off four people as "experienced" and forgotten others.. kaydubs is no noob. STL I consider "experienced" as well, even if he somehow just idiot savants his way to things. And don't let WZ fool you, she knows her **** and how to play a good wolf.

I don't like the intense focus on a select group of veterans because it often results in people lynching villager veteran after villager veteran until you are left with a group of noobs floundering away attempting to find wolves. We need our good villager veterans too. So, yes, I have considered that there is possibly a wolf veteran, but do not get tunnel vision and go on a veteran lynch mob as has occurred in previous games because it often just results in a villager massacre. And don't discount other experienced players... kaydubs and WZ aren't noobs to the game and can very well play things out as a wolf. As could SOV, LIS, rojo or myself. But that is 6 players that you are now looking at and simply randomly lynching off until you might luck yourself into a wolf... that isn't a proper way to play. We need to consider everyone and evaluate peoples' posting first and foremost instead of just hoping we will luck our way onto the "possible veteran" wolf.

And I think I rambled again, hopefully that is making some sense.

I would be very disappointed if this just turned into a "lynch all veterans because one might be a wolf based on info we think we see right NOW."

That would be crap play. Below any of us. But, we do need to "crack some eggs" to see the reactions among those who are left. Trying to pick the sketchiest of those available with a little bit of a finger of doubt pointed their way... nothing like the doubt you are trying to create. Give us a little credit. And realize that posts like that are why noobs feel like "We don't get no respect" and just make me personally want to lynch you next.

Happy 4th!

 

[DVMDream]

I would be very disappointed if this just turned into a "lynch all veterans because one might be a wolf based on info we think we see right NOW."

It has happened before.

 

[WildZoo]

And don't let WZ fool you, she knows her **** and how to play a good wolf.

Aww DVMD...this means so much to me 😍

 

[DVMDream]

Give us a little credit. And realize that posts like that are why noobs feel like "We don't get no respect" and just make me personally want to lynch you next.

Happy 4th!

It wasn't attack against you or anyone else. Why so sensitive over an observation that I and other players have seen occur before? I didn't make that post for ****s and giggles. I made it because I have witnessed it a number of times.

 

[DVMDream]

It wasn't intended to be a personal attack and honestly I am thoroughly confused as to how you even interpreted it that way.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

It wasn't attack against you or anyone else. Why so sensitive over an observation that I and other players have seen occur before? I didn't make that post for ****s and giggles. I made it because I have witnessed it a number of times.

I'm kinda bummed if that is really your motivation. Why play a game like this if you don't reanalyze with every bit of info?

 

[WildZoo]

I hope dy is ok, I don't think she's even checked in since last night. Anyone heard from her? I'm a worrier.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm kinda bummed if that is really your motivation. Why play a game like this if you don't reanalyze with every bit of info?

Don't ask me... I didn't do it. Just an observation I have seen happen in other games. And to be honest, I couldn't tell you who has done it. I just figured I would say something now as it seems to slowly be starting up in the same manner it has in previous games. That was all. Just wanted to mention it as a warning now before the ball is already rolling way down the hill.

 

[Lupin21]

***********

I hope dy is ok, I don't think she's even checked in since last night. Anyone heard from her? I'm a worrier.

Family time. All's well. You guys are serious addicts. 😉

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

It wasn't intended to be a personal attack and honestly I am thoroughly confused as to how you even interpreted it that way.

I wasn't taking it personally. I told you it sounds like an admonishment of what you consider noob play. It is certainly directed at a "you who would lynch all the vets" until:

until you are left with a group of noobs floundering away attempting to find wolves. We need our good villager veterans too.

Because noobs flounder and only vets can be described as "good."

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I hope dy is ok, I don't think she's even checked in since last night. Anyone heard from her? I'm a worrier.

Me too. I've been worried since we didn't close at 10 am.

 

[WildZoo]

***********

Family time. All's well. You guys are serious addicts. 😉

Hey man I wasn't concerned about the game! Just wanted to make sure she was OK 🙂

 

[Lupin21]

**********

Hey man I wasn't concerned about the game! Just wanted to make sure she was OK 🙂

haha! I know. I was being cheeky.

 

[DVMDream]

I wasn't taking it personally. I told you it sounds like an admonishment of what you consider noob play. It is certainly directed at a "you who would lynch all the vets" until:


Because noobs flounder and only vets can be described as "good."

I think you are taking my post way more seriously and to heart than it was intended. And kind of putting words in my post that really didn't and don't exist.

Anyway, I am off to eat some dinner. Have a good night.

 

[WildZoo]

Don't ask me... I didn't do it. Just an observation I have seen happen in other games. And to be honest, I couldn't tell you who has done it. I just figured I would say something now as it seems to slowly be starting up in the same manner it has in previous games. That was all. Just wanted to mention it as a warning now before the ball is already rolling way down the hill.

Happens in the other direction too, a fair number of us became convinced there were noob wolves in some game and then the tunnel vision started and it did not lead us in a good direction.

Basically...try not to get tunnel vision about anything in WW. This is a reminder to myself as much as to anyone else. Of course you want to,narrow down your suspects so you have something to focus on but make sure you're not using a potentially insignificant piece of data to do it rather than actual evidence or feeling of wolfiness.

 

[DVMDream]

Hey man I wasn't concerned about the game! Just wanted to make sure she was OK 🙂

**********************
I saw her post on FB not too long ago. I think she is just hanging out with family/enjoying the holiday.
*********************

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I think you are taking my post way more seriously and to heart than it was intended. And kind of putting words in my post that really didn't and don't exist.

Anyway, I am off to eat some dinner. Have a good night.

I'm not mad at all. Just trying to explain to you how your post sounds to others. You've done it to me in the past explaining that it is helpful to know how your post will be heard by others. I'm helping 😀

(I would put a million smiles after that if it would make it not come across as sarcastic and bitchy, but I don't think it helps. The only phrase I've got just makes it worse: Assume positive intent.
But really, I don't think you know how what you said comes across to those it is directed at.)

 

[DVMDream]

The only phrase I've got just makes it worse: Assume positive intent.

You need to apply the above phrase to my post.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

You need to apply the above phrase to my post.

I did. I also quoted the spots that were the problem so you could see what I was referring to.
I see your meaning. Just I also spot a failure in communication if you want to sound like you are on the same team as the noob villagers.

 

[WildZoo]

Did you guys know the wolves have won the last 7/10 games? 😵

 

[DVMDream]

I did. I also quoted the spots that were the problem so you could see what I was referring to.
I see your meaning. Just I also spot a failure in communication if you want to sound like you are on the same team as the noob villagers.

This is a damn game. Get over the people need to post "nicely" in order to avoid specific sensitivities. It is a bunch of hogwash. I will not and never have tip-toed around someone's sensitivities. If that bothers you, don't play. I don't think you understand how this game is usually played, we have toned down a lot over the years. There would be people in tears if they had played a couple years ago because it seems that they can't separate out comments and not take them as some type of personal attack. You haven't had insight into how we used to play. I have had LIS call me a flat out bitch during this game before and guess what... I. did. not. care. Because the game is not meant to be taken seriously. The game is meant to be played to point things out....

I pointed out a very legitimate concern of people getting tunnel vision with a specific group of players. It has occurred before. And as @WildZoo pointed out the reverse is the same. It doesn't matter what group it is.. noobs, veterans, half noobs, old men, people who live in their mothers basements... tunnel vision is bad. If you can't handle that post, I don't know what else to tell you. But I am not going to change my mind or re-think that post because it is a very valid statement especially in this game.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Did you guys know the wolves have won the last 7/10 games? 😵

Yup. Is dumb.

I've seen the theory that it is related to game design and balancing and the laziness of play along with the extravagance of the game mechanics. I haven't made up my mind there yet.

 

[dyachei]

Guys I haven't been on my computer all day. Official lynch close will be tomorrow at 11 pm

 

[LetItSnow]

I wasn't taking it personally. I told you it sounds like an admonishment of what you consider noob play. It is certainly directed at a "you who would lynch all the vets" until:

Because noobs flounder and only vets can be described as "good."

That last comment in the quote above ("because noobs flounder....") is pretty darn passive aggressive.

Did you guys know the wolves have won the last 7/10 games? 😵

.... and yet exactly <nobody> listens to me when I keep pointing out that the balance in SDN Pre-Vet WW games is awry.

I think one improvement we could make isn't precisely balancing -- I think we would do well to cut the scale of the games down. Bring them from 30 players down to 20, and then request that people only sign up if they truly think they are in a place they can participate and play. No more Foxhuntering. We tend to have a lot of people sign up, then minimally play, and it detracts. Nobody is perfect, and crap happens, so there will always be people backing out or whatever. But we could improve the rosters by raising the expectation. I like that Dy has pushed that heavily this game, and I think it's made for a better game.

I also think to the degree people push extremely complicated games with bazonkers mechanics, balance will be mostly a wet dream. Doesn't mean people shouldn't push those kinds of games - the stories can be awesome - but let's not kid ourselves about 'balance'.

This is a damn game. Get over the people need to post "nicely" in order to avoid specific sensitivities. It is a bunch of hogwash. I will not and never have tip-toed around someone's sensitivities. If that bothers you, don't play. I don't think you understand how this game is usually played, we have toned down a lot over the years. There would be people in tears if they had played a couple years ago because it seems that they can't separate out comments and not take them as some type of personal attack. You haven't had insight into how we used to play. I have had LIS call me a flat out bitch during this game before and guess what... I. did. not. care. Because the game is not meant to be taken seriously. The game is meant to be played to point things out....

Truth. I mean. The game is centered around deceit. It's based on lying! If people can't stomach being accused and called out and challenged and called a liar and whatever .... they shouldn't play. It's not the game for them. And if they can't separate game arguments from non-game arguments it also isn't the game for them. I did call DVMD that once, and we're still friends. It was a game. I was probably a wolf.

All of the 'toning down' has also taken away from fun gameplay. I think the 'toning down' has gone hand in hand with newer-player expectation of "hard data" (i.e. seers, trackers, etc.) on which to base their vote. And it shows - when they don't have that vote, they just flounder with "Uhhhh.... don't know anything, so RNG lynch so-n-so." But since their expectation is hard data - anything like challenges and arguments is viewed as undesirable. Makes for a boring game.

Anyway. Back to the game at hand. Which, in my opinion, has been frickin' stellar. Even though I'm about to get lynched.

I will say this. Rojo is a complete ass in this game with his lynching of me. And I still think he's super cool, an awesome player, funny as hell, and next game I'll probably yank his chain about lynching me this game, but it won't be personal and I won't hold it against him.

 

[WildZoo]

Yup. Is dumb.

I've seen the theory that it is related to game design and balancing and the laziness of play along with the extravagance of the game mechanics. I haven't made up my mind there yet.

I think it's certainly related in some way to the game balancing not accounting for the way that the village has been playing for a good while now (up until this game), and villagers spending so much time trying to work through mechanics and relying on power roles that it is very easy for wolves to blend in. Which is why this game is happening anyway. It is also very, very difficult to balance a game with so many moving parts. You kind of sacrifice balance to fun in those cases, because there is just no way to account for everything. The crazier your mechanics get, the more variance shows up. Just look at how much an impact items have had in some games and you'll see what I mean...

.... and yet exactly <nobody> listens to me when I keep pointing out that the balance in SDN Pre-Vet WW games is awry.

I think one improvement we could make isn't precisely balancing -- I think we would do well to cut the scale of the games down. Bring them from 30 players down to 20, and then request that people only sign up if they truly think they are in a place they can participate and play. No more Foxhuntering. We tend to have a lot of people sign up, then minimally play, and it detracts. Nobody is perfect, and crap happens, so there will always be people backing out or whatever. But we could improve the rosters by raising the expectation. I like that Dy has pushed that heavily this game, and I think it's made for a better game.

I also think to the degree people push extremely complicated games with bazonkers mechanics, balance will be mostly a wet dream. Doesn't mean people shouldn't push those kinds of games - the stories can be awesome - but let's not kid ourselves about 'balance'.

There goes LIS again, shouting about game balance like the grumpy old man he is 😉 But no, I agree with what you've said here and in previous posts. I kind of wanted to keep going back and see when the last time was that we had multiple village wins in a row but...I got bored.
I'm planning on my Dark Tower game having 19 players because well, it has to be (anyone who knows the series will understand) but also because I agree on the size issue. Not to mention I hate hate hate modding games with 30+ people in them. It makes a lot of sense to me to have a commitment expectation in place as a mod...you put a lot of work into making a game, it is not unreasonable to expect the same from your players.

 

[LetItSnow]

There goes LIS again, shouting about game balance like the grumpy old man he is 😉

Yup. In truth, I miss some of the classic shouting matches. They made it fun. Now it's all "anyone got any seer info? no? ok, let's rng until someone does!"

Yay. How exciting.

-------------------

Different topic. Did @dyachei really mean 11PM tomorrow, or did she mean 11AM? I'm starting to feel like I'm earning an award for "longest time someone has swung in the noose"....

 

[WildZoo]

-------------------

Different topic. Did @dyachei really mean 11PM tomorrow, or did she mean 11AM? I'm starting to feel like I'm earning an award for "longest time someone has swung in the noose"....

 

[DVMDream]

That last comment in the quote above ("because noobs flounder....") is pretty darn passive aggressive.



.

Ha, I stated that in my post above, but it was in context with other things.

However, I stand by it... it isn't meant to be mean. Heck, we have all been noobs. I have been bamboozled and fooled many times. My first game WTF easily persuaded me as a wolf. It takes time to learn and get better at the game. In no way was I saying that noobs suck and only veterans can be good... which is, for some reason, what LoTF interpreted. I was stating (in not so many words) that veterans have more experience and are better able to read each other. We have played with each other for years and pick up on subtle things that might set off flags in our minds and we have played in games like this before with minimal mechanics. That is the expertise we need at end game. That isn't to discredit the newer players or state that they can't also pick up on things, it is just to say that veterans have more experience with it and specifically more experience with each other. That is why when I noticed multiple people doing the "I definitely think a veteran is a wolf" I stated something... I want to avoid people getting tunnel vision on that thought as has occurred in previous games.

 

[LetItSnow]

Haaaahahahahahahaha. Well done, WZ, well done.

 

[Trilt]

*************

.... and yet exactly <nobody> listens to me when I keep pointing out that the balance in SDN Pre-Vet WW games is awry.

I think one improvement we could make isn't precisely balancing -- I think we would do well to cut the scale of the games down. Bring them from 30 players down to 20, and then request that people only sign up if they truly think they are in a place they can participate and play. No more Foxhuntering. We tend to have a lot of people sign up, then minimally play, and it detracts. Nobody is perfect, and crap happens, so there will always be people backing out or whatever. But we could improve the rosters by raising the expectation. I like that Dy has pushed that heavily this game, and I think it's made for a better game.

I also think to the degree people push extremely complicated games with bazonkers mechanics, balance will be mostly a wet dream. Doesn't mean people shouldn't push those kinds of games - the stories can be awesome - but let's not kid ourselves about 'balance'.

I'll post once just because, well, I like designing games and I have helped mod or co-mod a lot of the past ones that have brought these comments. I absolutely, 100% agree about bringing the number down. After running Pokemon with 32 and watching people just kind of stop caring by the end (leading to people ignoring a lot of information, and the wolves being able to smash enough villagers in one night to hit parity), I said I'd be designing more in the 20-25 range going forward. That's why the one I was going to run right now is sitting pretty at 24 players. I think emphasizing people only sign up if they actually have time to play makes an absolute world of difference, because apathetic villagers at end game = a loss. And quite honestly, I think that is more to blame than any game balance things of late, and I say that as someone who has been either a wolf or a mod in a ton of them (so watching from an informed minority standpoint).

But I also just want to say that there's nothing stopping people from using the same techniques that are in this game in ones with lots of power roles. I do. It's why - excluding HDM, because that was a disaster of a first village game - I've started lynches or successfully pushed seers/trackers at wolves in every game I've played as a villager. It takes time, and it's not as firm as saying "I seered yada yada as evilllll," but it's the crux of the game, and it's fun. Despite me being a bit of a salty mfer and not signing up, I think this game is well-timed and a helpful reminder of that. But I also think that just going "god too many seers what cruddy design I want the basics" is blaming the design instead of blaming the people who are not playing the game as it's made to be played. And I like the intensely store driven, more puzzle-like (and yeah, sometimes with complicated mechanics) games that we make here quite a bit. They're different, but they're kind of uniquely SDN... I've trolled around the internet for game ideas and haven't found another forum that does it quite like we do, and I think that's neat. 😀

That's all. Can't resist commenting on the topic.

 

[LetItSnow]

*************
But I just want to say that there's nothing stopping people from using the same techniques that are in this game in ones with lots of power roles. I do.
*************

Point taken. I only sorta agree, though. In one sense I agree - there is nothing stopping classic game play. But in another sense ... there's been a gradual shift. As people have come to rely on 'power' roles more, they've also gotten more upset when people really come out aggressive, lean on someone, push back, call people out, etc. So the lazy power-role dependency has, in one sense, made it harder to use more classic techniques just because people are more quick to get all butt hurt about it.

*************
And I like the intensely store driven, more puzzle-like (and yeah, sometimes with complicated mechanics) games that we make here quite a bit. They're different, but they're kind of uniquely SDN... I've trolled around the internet for game ideas and haven't found another forum that does it quite like we do, and I think that's neat. 😀*************

Yup. I've been pretty careful in my 'criticism' to note that I think there is a place for those games, and just because they aren't balanced well doesn't mean they can't be fun, which is really the point anyway.

But I would really enjoy playing in some better balanced games more frequently.

I don't really disagree with you as much as you think I do, maybe. 🙂

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

In honour of lynch extension, I'm going to go ahead and unlynch LIS lynch Teep
I'm not feeling Jil or LIS as much as I was, but I am starting to get more feels from Teep

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

At this point LIS is either the absolute king of defenses and has successfully messed with my head, or he is a villager

 

[LetItSnow]

At this point LIS is either the absolute king of defenses and has successfully messed with my head, or he is a villager

I haz a disappoint. Can't it be both?

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

I haz a disappoint. Can't it be both?

Eh, sure since I unlynched you.

If you end up being a wolf I'm going to be very disappointed in myself lol

 

[LetItSnow]

Eh, sure since I unlynched you.

If you end up being a wolf I'm going to be very disappointed in myself lol

One of my happiest moments was being a wolf and going (real life) camping and getting people to leave me alone because I was going camping and wouldn't be able to play as much. That's why I've always preached that you should never cut someone slack because of real-life - it has no bearing on their role in the game. But we all do it because we're generally nice people.

That was the same game that we had a fellow wolf claim my role and then I jumped back in just in time to throw them under the bus by calling them out on claiming my role.

Good times.

 

[WildZoo]

*************


I'll post once just because, well, I like designing games and I have helped mod or co-mod a lot of the past ones that have brought these comments. I absolutely, 100% agree about bringing the number down. After running Pokemon with 32 and watching people just kind of stop caring by the end (leading to people ignoring a lot of information, and the wolves being able to smash enough villagers in one night to hit parity), I said I'd be designing more in the 20-25 range going forward. That's why the one I was going to run right now is sitting pretty at 24 players. I think emphasizing people only sign up if they actually have time to play makes an absolute world of difference, because apathetic villagers at end game = a loss. And quite honestly, I think that is more to blame than any game balance things of late, and I say that as someone who has been either a wolf or a mod in a ton of them (so watching from an informed minority standpoint).

But I also just want to say that there's nothing stopping people from using the same techniques that are in this game in ones with lots of power roles. I do. It's why - excluding HDM, because that was a disaster of a first village game - I've started lynches or successfully pushed seers/trackers at wolves in every game I've played as a villager. It takes time, and it's not as firm as saying "I seered yada yada as evilllll," but it's the crux of the game, and it's fun. Despite me being a bit of a salty mfer and not signing up, I think this game is well-timed and a helpful reminder of that. But I also think that just going "god too many seers what cruddy design I want the basics" is blaming the design instead of blaming the people who are not playing the game as it's made to be played. And I like the intensely store driven, more puzzle-like (and yeah, sometimes with complicated mechanics) games that we make here quite a bit. They're different, but they're kind of uniquely SDN... I've trolled around the internet for game ideas and haven't found another forum that does it quite like we do, and I think that's neat. 😀

That's all. Can't resist commenting on the topic.

You know, you also designed one of the 3 games that the villagers won...three cheers for my heaps of borrowed time in These Are A Few of My Favorite Things
Another phenomenon that occurs often enough in larger games is that the villagers that are really invested get killed off early, especially if they're doing well. Which is duh, good strategy for the wolves, but if the game is large and a good portion of people who have signed up can't really contribute as much, you end up with dazed/confused villagers at the end. Plus the bigger games drag on and people just get tired/lose interest sometimes. That can turn a technically well-balanced game into a **** show because the game wasn't balanced to account for lazy play.

This also brings to mind the absolutely gigantic mish-mash games on the 2+2 forums (like, 100+ players). I don't know how they do it. Kind of wonder what the balance is like there.

And the second part of your post is why I've always said I have more fun as a vanilla villager than I ever do with a power role (most fun is wolf though, of course). It's hard to not get wrapped up in your role and whatever info it can provide you, plus try not to seem too smart so you get killed, etc. Vanilla is freedom. Not that I'm any good at wolf hunting but I started out playing bare bones mafia in my creative writing class in high school so it's the part of the game I love the most. I do love a good story too, though.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Get over the people need to post "nicely" in order to avoid specific sensitivities. I

Was not my point. Just showing you how it read since I've been called out on it too.

If that bothers you, don't play.

I'm not the one threatening to quit playing for any reason. Really, I'm not upset, at all. I actually don't understand the "retaliatory anger."

I don't think you understand how this game is usually played, we have toned down a lot over the years. There would be people in tears if they had played a couple years ago because it seems that they can't separate out comments and not take them as some type of personal attack. You haven't had insight into how we used to play.

I've been around a lot longer than any of you seem to realize. I had another account and could not find the darn thing after taking 2 years off. After 3 months, I gave up and made this one. Didn't post much back then. Mostly a lurker.

That last comment in the quote above ("because noobs flounder....") is pretty darn passive aggressive.

Yeah, it was me quoting DVMD. Trying to show why I thought the post came across harsher than meant. It started all this.

Ha, I stated that in my post above, but it was in context with other things.

However, I stand by it... it isn't meant to be mean. Heck, we have all been noobs. I have been bamboozled and fooled many times. My first game WTF easily persuaded me as a wolf. It takes time to learn and get better at the game. In no way was I saying that noobs suck and only veterans can be good... which is, for some reason, what LoTF interpreted. I was stating (in not so many words) that veterans have more experience and are better able to read each other. We have played with each other for years and pick up on subtle things that might set off flags in our minds and we have played in games like this before with minimal mechanics. That is the expertise we need at end game. That isn't to discredit the newer players or state that they can't also pick up on things, it is just to say that veterans have more experience with it and specifically more experience with each other. That is why when I noticed multiple people doing the "I definitely think a veteran is a wolf" I stated something... I want to avoid people getting tunnel vision on that thought as has occurred in previous games.

Still, not grumpy in the slightest. I just don't want to be painted as such.

But I also think that just going "god too many seers what cruddy design I want the basics" is blaming the design instead of blaming the people who are not playing the game as it's made to be played. And I like the intensely store driven, more puzzle-like (and yeah, sometimes with complicated mechanics) games that we make here quite a bit. They're different, but they're kind of uniquely SDN... I've trolled around the internet for game ideas and haven't found another forum that does it quite like we do, and I think that's neat. 😀

I love our games. I also loved the old ones. (Total lurker.) The pretend drama was awesome! The one time I got to try to pull off something in that style, I think it was Gwen, PMd me and tried to talk me down before I got too angry. I had to reassure that it was all part of the game.
I'm down to play that way. But, that is why I read all the drama I'm getting from DVMD as sketchy. There is no reason for it. Not because I am upset, because I'm not, but because it was a very fast escalation and the original post sounded like it was designed to cut factions through the villagers. Does that make sense to anybody?


Read all that like this:

I don't really disagree with you as much as you think I do, maybe.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I started out playing bare bones mafia in my creative writing class in high school so it's the part of the game I love the most. I do love a good story too, though.

Kinda where I started too. Plus my improve comedy troop got really into them and the Vampire RPGs (I was Malkavian if that gives insight- super geek)

 

[Trilt]

*************
OK maybe more than one post. 😛

Point taken. I only sorta agree, though. In one sense I agree - there is nothing stopping classic game play. But in another sense ... there's been a gradual shift. As people have come to rely on 'power' roles more, they've also gotten more upset when people really come out aggressive, lean on someone, push back, call people out, etc. So the lazy power-role dependency has, in one sense, made it harder to use more classic techniques just because people are more quick to get all butt hurt about it.

I think it's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy where there are maybe a couple people who get upset, other people complain about them getting butt hurt, and then there's grumps all around and it all rolls to a stop. I don't know that I've seen the same correlation with power role dependency, but you've been at it way waaaaay longer than me so I absolutely believe it. I do think people depend too much on seering... most recently, manipulating that is how wolves won both Peter Pan and Conseqwwences. In Peter Pan people even raised concerns about the legitimacy of the seering and still went with it, so we could control end game.

But I would really enjoy playing in some better balanced games more frequently.

I don't really disagree with you as much as you think I do, maybe. 🙂

I think I fundamentally like the crazy games more than you do - they're giant puzzles where you don't even know what the pieces are made of! - but I think we agree on many, many of the details after that. 🙂

You know, you also designed one of the 3 games that the villagers won...three cheers for my heaps of borrowed time in These Are A Few of My Favorite Things

If you go a smidge further, villagers won Rick & Morty too.

And the second part of your post is why I've always said I have more fun as a vanilla villager than I ever do with a power role (most fun is wolf though, of course). It's hard to not get wrapped up in your role and whatever info it can provide you, plus try not to seem too smart so you get killed, etc. Vanilla is freedom. Not that I'm any good at wolf hunting but I started out playing bare bones mafia in my creative writing class in high school so it's the part of the game I love the most. I do love a good story too, though.

I'll take a vanilla villager role over a power role (or wolf... I genuinely don't love being an original wolf) any day. I absolutely love my lame communication roles, too. 😀 But I've learned that a lot of people don't think the same way.

 

[DVMDream]

Was not my point. Just showing you how it read since I've been called out on it too.

I'm not the one threatening to quit playing for any reason. Really, I'm not upset, at all. I actually don't understand the "retaliatory anger."


I've been around a lot longer than any of you seem to realize. I had another account and could not find the darn thing after taking 2 years off. After 3 months, I gave up and made this one. Didn't post much back then. Mostly a lurker.


Yeah, it was me quoting DVMD. Trying to show why I thought the post came across harsher than meant. It started all this.


Still, not grumpy in the slightest. I just don't want to be painted as such.



I love our games. I also loved the old ones. (Total lurker.) The pretend drama was awesome! The one time I got to try to pull off something in that style, I think it was Gwen, PMd me and tried to talk me down before I got too angry. I had to reassure that it was all part of the game.
I'm down to play that way. But, that is why I read all the drama I'm getting from DVMD as sketchy. There is no reason for it. Not because I am upset, because I'm not, but because it was a very fast escalation and the original post sounded like it was designed to cut factions through the villagers. Does that make sense to anybody?


Read all that like this:

Honestly, this isn't the first time you've made some comment about being sensitive to a noob mentioning by one of us. I attempted to explain it and you still were trying to lecture me on how it can come across. The point is, you missed my entire point because of a sensitivity. You've done it before to me and I know you've done it to others. You pigeon hole yourself on one aspect of a post and just can't let go.

Unless you disagree with my comment that we shouldn't be tunnel visioning ourselves towards a particular group. If you don't disagree with that then I can't comprehend how you come to the conclusion that my posting that is "designed to cut factions through villagers". I'm not even sure what that means. My post was meant to get villagers to work together and to not focus on if someone is a veteran or a noob, but instead on their specific postings and that's EXACTLY what my original post stated. I feel like your attempting to twist what I said into something it isn't. You've already added words to my post that were not there.

 

[DVMDream]

There very well could be an experienced wolf, I am not going to deny that, I actually agree that there probably is. However, you have cornered off four people as "experienced" and forgotten others.. kaydubs is no noob. STL I consider "experienced" as well, even if he somehow just idiot savants his way to things. And don't let WZ fool you, she knows her **** and how to play a good wolf.

I don't like the intense focus on a select group of veterans because it often results in people lynching villager veteran after villager veteran until you are left with a group of noobs floundering away attempting to find wolves. We need our good villager veterans too. So, yes, I have considered that there is possibly a wolf veteran, but do not get tunnel vision and go on a veteran lynch mob as has occurred in previous games because it often just results in a villager massacre. And don't discount other experienced players... kaydubs and WZ aren't noobs to the game and can very well play things out as a wolf. As could SOV, LIS, rojo or myself. But that is 6 players that you are now looking at and simply randomly lynching off until you might luck yourself into a wolf... that isn't a proper way to play. We need to consider everyone and evaluate peoples' posting first and foremost instead of just hoping we will luck our way onto the "possible veteran" wolf.

And I think I rambled again, hopefully that is making some sense.

Look, I even bolded it. Again, the group doesn't matter. I used veterans because that's what people have been focused on. It would be no different if the group was noobs, or boobs, or those with tattoos.

You really did intensely focus in on what 8 words of that entire post. You fail to even acknowledge or recognize the rest of it. And the remainder is good strategy and very beneficial for villagers to keep in mind.

I'm just not sure why you are so intent on only that part of my post, I can't comprehend it. Unless, of course, it bothered you, that's the only conclusion I can come to. And not bothered you in a game sense but a personal sense and you've made suggestions in your postings that it did. Please, do no take ww personally. I don't mean anything personally. And, no, I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that it is odd you've chosen to intensely focus on a very small part of one post of mine and attempt to use it to claim in trying to do something with factions when the rest of my post clearly shows that isn't the case.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Honestly, this isn't the first time you've made some comment about being sensitive to a noob mentioning by one of us. I attempted to explain it and you still were trying to lecture me on how it can come across. The point is, you missed my entire point because of a sensitivity. You've done it before to me and I know you've done it to others. You pigeon hole yourself on one aspect of a post and just can't let go.

Unless you disagree with my comment that we shouldn't be tunnel visioning ourselves towards a particular group. If you don't disagree with that then I can't comprehend how you come to the conclusion that my posting that is "designed to cut factions through villagers". I'm not even sure what that means. My post was meant to get villagers to work together and to not focus on if someone is a veteran or a noob, but instead on their specific postings and that's EXACTLY what my original post stated. I feel like your attempting to twist what I said into something it isn't. You've already added words to my post that were not there.

Don't disagree that we shouldn't pideon hole ourselves. I'm a bit disappointed that you can't see my point that even though you have a good point it is phrased to degrade a portion of our populous. I don't need to be upset by it to see it. I think you are smart enough to see it too. Regardless of our current disagreement, I see you as too bright to not understand that I did not put any words in your mouth, whereas you have repeatedly tried to paint me as "a noob pigeonholing myself into being sooo sensitive I can't let your poor wording go." All I did was point out poor wording and say I thought you were smarter than making such a mistake without realizing it aND hence sounded wolfy. I can be wrong.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I'm just not sure why you are so intent on only that part of my post, I can't comprehend it. Unless, of course, it bothered you, that's the only conclusion I can come to. And not bothered you in a game sense but a personal sense and you've made suggestions in your postings that it did. Please, do no take ww personally. I don't mean anything personally. And, no, I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that it is odd you've chosen to intensely focus on a very small part of one post of mine and attempt to use it to claim in trying to do something with factions when the rest of my post clearly shows that isn't the case.

I could pull the whole post apart line by line and show how it almost couldn't have been worded more to be inflammatory. Maybe I should have done that and that migt have avoided this whole conversation.
I think you finally got your distracting, post count building argument out of the way, though not with who you expected. If you want, we can do the whole name calling thing too. (I'm watching Deadpool and drinking heavily... I think I'll stop posting before the snark has much more effect on me)

 

[DVMDream]

Don't disagree that we shouldn't pideon hole ourselves. I'm a bit disappointed that you can't see my point that even though you have a good point it is phrased to degrade a portion of our populous. I don't need to be upset by it to see it. I think you are smart enough to see it too. Regardless of our current disagreement, I see you as too bright to not understand that I did not put any words in your mouth, whereas you have repeatedly tried to paint me as "a noob pigeonholing myself into being sooo sensitive I can't let your poor wording go." All I did was point out poor wording and say I thought you were smarter than making such a mistake without realizing it aND hence sounded wolfy. I can be wrong.

You did put words in my mouth. No single place have I ever stated that only veterans are "good" and only noobs flounder, heck even LIS called you out on that bit. I stated specifically that has happened in past games. Because it has. It wasn't a dig, or meant to be rude. I've even further clarified that as such. I'm not sure what you are missing. It isn't phrased to degrade anyone and that is the part where you are taking it personally where it isn't meant to be personal. It is an observation of what has happened in past games, that's it. It had no named attached to it, wasn't addressed to you or really anyone in particular. It was simply an observation based on experience.

 

[DVMDream]

I could pull the whole post apart line by line and show how it almost couldn't have been worded more to be inflammatory. Maybe I should have done that and that migt have avoided this whole conversation.
I think you finally got your distracting, post count building argument out of the way, though not with who you expected. If you want, we can do the whole name calling thing too. (I'm watching Deadpool and drinking heavily... I think I'll stop posting before the snark has much more effect on me)

Assume positive intent. I could pull apart any post in any thread at any point on this forum and make it appear inflammatory, that doesn't mean it is. Tone is difficult on the internet, so as you told me, assume positive intent. My post was strategy, for some reason you want to ignore that and focus on something that really doesn't matter.

And have to love the more passive aggressive in the above post, seriously? "We can start name calling if you want" "you got your distracting post arguing".... WTF is this other than to be passive aggressive? Now I finally see what others have been saying about you, was trying to give benefit of the doubt but damn they were right.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Assume positive intent. I could pull apart any post in any thread at any point on this forum and make it appear inflammatory, that doesn't mean it is. Tone is difficult on the internet, so as you told me, assume positive intent. My post was strategy, for some reason you want to ignore that and focus on something that really doesn't matter.

And have to love the more passive aggressive in the above post, seriously? "We can start name calling if you want" "you got your distracting post arguing".... WTF is this other than to be passive aggressive? Now I finally see what others have been saying about you, was trying to give benefit of the doubt but damn they were right.

Going elementary on my ass! Boom!

Still love ya!