Bankruptcy

[repletethelytes]

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After trying to avoid bankruptcy for years, recent changes in my household have left me no other option but to fill for chapter 7. I am currently a CA-2, and will be looking for a job soon. How will the bankruptcy affect my ability to find work and make partner. Does any one have suggestions or experience on how I can handle this situation once I'm on the interview trail. It would be much appreciated.

 

[drfeelgood]

how can you go bankrupt when you are about to land a 300k+ job. You party with P. Diddy???

We run credit checks at my clinic so you will not be granted a second interview.

People with poor credit tend to be more unreliable.👎

 

[Monty Python]

After trying to avoid bankruptcy for years, recent changes in my household have left me no other option but to fill for chapter 7. I am currently a CA-2, and will be looking for a job soon. How will the bankruptcy affect my ability to find work and make partner. Does any one have suggestions or experience on how I can handle this situation once I'm on the interview trail. It would be much appreciated.

I'm very sorry that you find yourself in this position. If you had hopes of joining the military or federal government civilian agency, such as the VA, you might have a difficult time getting hired. A recent bankruptcy will make it very difficult to get a security clearance.

Is there no other option for you besides bankruptcy? Please research all other options before taking this step (although you probably already have).

Best wishes.

 

[Narcotized]

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[deleted126335]

Credit checks are standard as part of a backround check in our practice. I would assume for most jobs as well. How much weight a potential employer gives it, hard to say. Needless to say it is a black mark. If there were unusual circumstances, i.e. medical bills as opposed to poor spending habits it might be a mitigating factor.

 

[Surfer]

be a man (or woman). you're about to make 300k. make ends meet until you can really repay all of it. and i mean.... ALL OF IT.

i have no respect for people who fail to pay their debts.

 

[Monty Python]

May I suggest we give the OP the initial benefit of the doubt here? Who knows, his financial position might have been caused by extreme medical bills, a one-sided and unfair divorce settlement, special-needs child, etc. While I certainly agree that each person should pull their own weight and not be a drag on society, there are sometimes unique and extenuating circumstances of which the general public isn't aware.

 

[pgg]

May I suggest we give the OP the initial benefit of the doubt here?

QFT

The two families I know who've filed for bankruptcy were not lazy worthless people.

- a failed business
- a child's medical bills


Bankruptcy may indeed by a big red flag for an applicant, but everyone ought to get an opportunity to explain the circumstances.

 

[Bertelman]

There's a whole lot of judgment on this thread. It's not for us to say why this poster has found himself in the position of declaring bankruptcy. Unfortunately, he's found that there is currently little understanding of his position.

And someone please explain to me what Obama has to do with any of this. Bankruptcy has been around since well before he or his immediate ancestors were ever born.

 

[myhandsarecold]

whoa, another reason to not:
1. get married
2. have a kid
3. buy an expensive graduate gift
4. buy a house during residency
5. buy a BMW during internship
6. upgrade to a nicer apartment
7. go on a vacation
8. start repaying student loans

tough to do anything on this economy

 

[emd123]

There is no economic free lunch (contrary to what Obama wants you to believe). Your bankruptcy will be dumped on others to cover for it; ie, me and everyone else. I work with enough people that try to dump their crap on me. I didn't need any others. So, selfish irresponsibility should and probably will affect your job choices. I wouldn't want to work with you. Be a man and find a way to take care of YOUR debts when you will soon be able to, as opposed to being a drain on society and dumping it on everyone else.

be a man (or woman). you're about to make 300k. make ends meet until you can really repay all of it. and i mean.... ALL OF IT.

i have no respect for people who fail to pay their debts.

We're all about to go bankrupt:

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

 

[Narcotized]

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[pgg]

The poster is in a unique situation among bankrupt individuals in that his income will soon go up 5-10 fold.

He's literally hours away from the 1/2way point of his CA2 year. 18 months is a long time when your checking account is empty and bills exceed income.

Think Greece can hang on another 18 months? 🙂

 

[scarshapedstar]

Exactly. That's what Obama has to do with it. Their is no economic free lunch. Unpaid debts are paid by someone else.

And what exactly was Bush's 'ownership society' predicated upon? Perpetual inflation of real estate values? Sounds a lot like a free lunch to me, but back then it was basically Manifest Destiny. Were you raising a fuss while he declared it a patriotic duty to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in mortgage debt?

 

[Narcotized]

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[Narcotized]

Think Greece can hang on another 18 months? 🙂

If you pretty much guaranteed Greece a 5+ fold jump in income in 18 months, then yes I do think they and their creditors could figure out how to hang on. 🙂

 

[scarshapedstar]

Bush was an idiot. All of you "religious" people seem to have to worship somebody. I worship nobody. This may hit you as a huge surprise but both Bush and Obama can be idiots, not just one or the other. You don't have to dislike one guy and therefore blindly follow the other.

Okay, and likewise you don't have to have Obama Tourette's Syndrome. Guy's having financial problems and you say he's been brainwashed by Obama. I'm pretty sure his troubles date back beyond January 2009.

Oh, btw, the banksters got a $15 trillion free lunch. OP's debt and that of every other bankrupt "irresponsible" household in America amount to maybe a fraction of 1% of that cash mountain that's never, ever coming back. Who really deserves to be berated? You do realize that every foolish mortgage in history added together wouldn't come close to the value of the market in worthless speculative derivatives at the time of the crash, right? This guy isn't a pimple of the ass on the economic crisis, and yet you and Rick Santelli act like he's history's greatest monster.

 

[pgg]

If you pretty much guaranteed Greece a 5+ fold jump in income in 18 months, then yes I do think they and their creditors could figure out how to hang on. 🙂

All right, well played. 😉

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt though and assume he has made good faith efforts to negotiate with creditors.

 

[Bertelman]

If you pretty much guaranteed Greece a 5+ fold jump in income in 18 months, then yes I do think they and their creditors could figure out how to hang on. 🙂

But I doubt he has an entire continent hinging on his ability to repay his debt. People are willing to pull Greece up by the trousers because they will go down with them. I don't imagine the handful of lenders knocking on this guy's door are willing to wait 18 months.

I had difficulty covering the difference in the sale of my home after residency. Tried through multiple avenues to arrange some payment plan, or continuation of mortgage debt, etc. after the sale of the house. No one would listen. Their advice- Show up to closing with a wad of cash in my hand, or default on the loan. Period. That's it. Choice A or choice B. Angela Merkel wasn't lobbying Europe for my survival.

 

[cincincyreds]

We don't hire people who have declared chapter 11 bankrupcy in our group after doing the credit check. We just view these individuals as irresponsible and prefer responsible individuals in our group.

Why can't you just get a lon from suntrust bank or some other entity like that for 18 months. I don't know about your residency, why don't you get a side job at the supermarket at night to pay down some debt so you don't have to declare bankrupcy.

I guess this is why our country is defined to fail. Nobody wants to take any responsibilty for anything and blame themselves for their own failures.

 

[chocomorsel]

But I doubt he has an entire continent hinging on his ability to repay his debt. People are willing to pull Greece up by the trousers because they will go down with them. I don't imagine the handful of lenders knocking on this guy's door are willing to wait 18 months.

I had difficulty covering the difference in the sale of my home after residency. Tried through multiple avenues to arrange some payment plan, or continuation of mortgage debt, etc. after the sale of the house. No one would listen. Their advice- Show up to closing with a wad of cash in my hand, or default on the loan. Period. That's it. Choice A or choice B. Angela Merkel wasn't lobbying Europe for my survival.

So what did you end up doing? I have this same issue coming up sometime this year. Want to get rid of this place and never come back here if I can help it.

 

[narcusprince]

I think its dismissive to look at someones credit report and assume because their are some blips on the report that they are irresponsible. As an example during medical school I found a close family member took out 2 credit cards in my name. Ran up some debt roughly 3000$ of unpaid debt. Found out about it after my credit had took a hit. Had to file a police report and all and it came down to either charge the account off or prosecute. I chose to not prosecute. Its off my credit now but some things like this happen to people. So to just blindly look at someones credit report and say they are irresponsible irrespective of their CV, credentials, and working history is dismissive.

 

[vector2]

I guess this is why our country is defined to fail. Nobody wants to take any responsibilty for anything and blame themselves for their own failures.

Because everyone who is rich is intelligent, self-motivated, hardworking, and trustworthy. Everyone who is poor is stupid, lazy, shiftless and irresponsible.

 

[pgy13]

Another possibility is the Anesthesia Foundation. They provide low interest loans to anesthesia residents. www.anesthesiafoundation.org. Or talk to your program director, sometimes departments/hospitals have some funds set aside that you could borrow to bridge until you're done with residency.

 

[Bertelman]

So what did you end up doing? I have this same issue coming up sometime this year. Want to get rid of this place and never come back here if I can help it.

I'll keep myself out of this, but here were the 4 choices explained to me.

1- default on the loan. This requires several consecutive months of non-payment. At that time, you may be offered assistance via TARP or some other gov't program. You can imagine what this will do to your credit rating and future opportunities.

2- Short-sale the house. Potential Buyers will be aware that this is a short sale, which will prolong the closing, financing, etc. It will scare some buyers away, and once a buyer is found, the entire process will be much more complicated and emotional. As if selling a house doesn't already have enough of both of those. And oh yeah, this will put a black mark on your credit as well, maybe as much as a foreclosure/bankruptcy.

3- find some cash to front the difference, from family or some other source.

4- rent the house out while you are hundreds or thousands of miles away. If you can find a renter. This involves finding a very special friend or agency to manage the renters, repairs, etc. Again, if you can't find a renter, you're just pissing away your monthly mortgage.

 

[Apollyon]

Because everyone who is rich is intelligent, self-motivated, hardworking, and trustworthy. Everyone who is poor is stupid, lazy, shiftless and irresponsible.

Why does it appear that virtually all med students are borderline or actual communists?

It's rare for threads like this to appear on specific specialty forums here on SDN (when I used to check out the Gen Res forum, threads like this are common - "I can't stop using meth, but I'm getting a 4.0 and have been accepted to Penn and Harvard already" and stuff like that). So, who is the OP? First, s/he may be someone we (I as an outsider) already know. Alternatively, it is someone not known to us. However, that leads to the larger issue - "hit and run" posting, with vague details. I mean, that's fair enough, but, at the same time, if you ask for advice, you have to be specific. And the OP has not come back.

So, what do we get? We get one side, throwing the book at the person. We get the other, saying "bad things happen to good people". Then we get a third side with an actual case.

Drfeelgood, cincincyreds and Bertelman have the meat, though.

Still, a good discussion with reality, notwithstanding the obligatory dig at the economy writ large.

 

[Narcotized]

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[Narcotized]

We don't hire people who have declared chapter 11 bankrupcy in our group after doing the credit check. We just view these individuals as irresponsible and prefer responsible individuals in our group.

Why can't you just get a lon from suntrust bank or some other entity like that for 18 months. I don't know about your residency, why don't you get a side job at the supermarket at night to pay down some debt so you don't have to declare bankrupcy.

I guess this is why our country is defined to fail. Nobody wants to take any responsibilty for anything and blame themselves for their own failures.

👍👍👍

 

[michigangirl]

Short-sales are a pain in the butt for everyone involved, but it's my understanding from all the research I did when buying my house (a short-sale) that both the bank and the seller don't lose as much from a short sale credit score wise as in a foreclosure. That's why the banks are actually willing to take a hit to do a short sale sometimes, better for their rep overall than a foreclosure.

I'll keep myself out of this, but here were the 4 choices explained to me.


2- Short-sale the house. Potential Buyers will be aware that this is a short sale, which will prolong the closing, financing, etc. It will scare some buyers away, and once a buyer is found, the entire process will be much more complicated and emotional. As if selling a house doesn't already have enough of both of those. And oh yeah, this will put a black mark on your credit as well, maybe as much as a foreclosure/bankruptcy.

 

[Osteoimperfecta]

I was talking to a recruiter a few months ago, and he said the early signs of a dying field in medicine is one that has way too much luxury in their choice of employees. What struck me when I saw this thread was that he mentioned credit checks specifically. I paraphrase, "if they have enough time to bicker about crap like credit scores and marital status, their services are probably not that valuable. When we recruit orthopedic surgeons, we check for their BE/BC, check their pulse, then offer them an arm, leg, and maybe a testicle to join the group. That is how valuable those guys are." I have never been a doom and gloom person, but if a board certified anesthesiologist is only as good as his/her credit score, then the field is in for some rough times for everyone bankrupt or not 😉

 

[saratoga733]

I was talking to a recruiter a few months ago, and he said the early signs of a dying field in medicine is one that has way too much luxury in their choice of employees. What struck me when I saw this thread was that he mentioned credit checks specifically. I paraphrase, "if they have enough time to bicker about crap like credit scores and marital status, their services are probably not that valuable. When we recruit orthopedic surgeons, we check for their BE/BC, check their pulse, then offer them an arm, leg, and maybe a testicle to join the group. That is how valuable those guys are." I have never been a doom and gloom person, but if a board certified anesthesiologist is only as good as his/her credit score, then the field is in for some rough times for everyone bankrupt or not 😉

I don't deny recruiting an orthopedic surgeon is harder than recruiting an anesthesiologist. Less of them trained each year plus longer training period. But to label Anesthesia as a "dying medical field" is a little dramatic don't you think? Using that logic, we would have to say the same about IM folks. And of course we all know a good Internist is worth their weight in Gold.

And to be quite frank, you are absolutely right. Most places that resort to using recruiters probably could care less about a physician's character, reliability, professionalism, and dare I say medical competence.

 

[urge]

QFT

The two families I know who've filed for bankruptcy were not lazy worthless people.

- a failed business
- a child's medical bills


Bankruptcy may indeed by a big red flag for an applicant, but everyone ought to get an opportunity to explain the circumstances.

I imagine he has mismanaged his finances for years and now is getting divorced with the added benefit of negative equity on the house.

Not that it matters, If he cannot pay the bills.

Same thing with the job search. It doesn't matter. If he needs to file, then he needs to file.

Cream of the cream jobs will probably turn him down, but heck... not everyone can be a winner.

 

[Osteoimperfecta]

I imagine he has mismanaged his finances for years and now is getting divorced with the added benefit of negative equity on the house.

Not that it matters, If he cannot pay the bills.

Same thing with the job search. It doesn't matter. If he needs to file, then he needs to file.

Cream of the cream jobs will probably turn him down, but heck... not everyone can be a winner.

This is not the only possible scenerio. I have seen divorces happen for numerous reasons. In fact, the president of a physician group in my hospital is in the middle of a divorce because his wife has been channelling their money to her personal trainer boyfriend, who btw has been nailing her for 5 years straight. Guess who is walking away with more than half his stuff. Plus we are not even sure OP is going through a divorce. I am not sure what OP's circumstance is, but I am pretty sure bad things can happen to anyone any day.

I am glad for my wife and son, and my stable finances, but some people are not as fortunate, and some not by their own doing. OP, I would avoid bankruptcy if possible, but if it is inevitable then so be it. You will still get a job, and I dare say you will find one working with people who care as much about YOU as the risks/benefits you bring to THEM. Do not fall into the fake life of medicine where people try to live the 'perfect' life, while constantly scared ****less of the next worst thing.

 

[ssmallz]

I think its absolutely ridiculous that a bankruptcy should affect your employment as an anesthesiologist. If he's BC/BE w/solid credentials and a good attitude I'd take that anyday over some 50 y/o unboarded doc w/good credit.

 

[Narcotized]

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[shopsteward]

The OP needs good advice on the financial choices available to them: there are charities and professional advisers who can look at all his/her circumstances and advise on the options. They've quite possibly done this already, though.

The point of bankruptcy is that it removes the legal obligation to pay back debts owing at the time. It's a breathing space for the OP, and a chance to start again. But when circumstances allow, there is nothing to stop the OP from paying back the debts owed at bankruptcy, on a voluntary basis, if he/she wanted to and felt that it was the right thing to do.

Would it make a difference to potential employers if the OP could say "I had no choice but to become bankrupt during residency because of X, but I am going to pay all my creditors back now I will have the income to do so"?

 

[jwk]

I was talking to a recruiter a few months ago, and he said the early signs of a dying field in medicine is one that has way too much luxury in their choice of employees. What struck me when I saw this thread was that he mentioned credit checks specifically. I paraphrase, "if they have enough time to bicker about crap like credit scores and marital status, their services are probably not that valuable. When we recruit orthopedic surgeons, we check for their BE/BC, check their pulse, then offer them an arm, leg, and maybe a testicle to join the group. That is how valuable those guys are." I have never been a doom and gloom person, but if a board certified anesthesiologist is only as good as his/her credit score, then the field is in for some rough times for everyone bankrupt or not 😉

We hang up on recruiters. It generally translates to lazy applicants. Those who get out and cold call and send resumes and network at state and national meetings will find the right job. Those who use recruiters will generally get the leftovers in BFE.

 

[ssmallz]

What it is is simply a screening tool; one small piece in the larger puzzle. The guy with 180 steps may be better than the guy with 240 steps, but the odds are he isn't. The guy with board failures may be better than the board certified doc, but the odds are he isn't. The guy with the bankruptcy may be more responsible than the guy that's met his obligations, but the odds are he isn't. You can substitute in the number of DUI's and a whole host of other screening measures.

It may not always be fair to the individual, but overall the screening process does work to give employers the best odds of finding the best candidate.

Medical Licencing steps and Board Failures have to do w/the practice of medicine....... bankruptcy does not. Should we also screen applicants for their weight and cholesterol because clearly people who are fat w/bad diets can't control their impulses and therefore can't practice anesthesia as well as more in shape people. See how unreasonable this argument sounds

 

[urge]

Would it make a difference to potential employers if the OP could say "I had no choice but to become bankrupt during residency because of X, but I am going to pay all my creditors back now I will have the income to do so"?

Are you like 3 yrs old?

Did Santa bring you some nice Tonka trucks?

Don't you realize he wants to get all his debt erased before his salary goes up so that he never has to pay?

 

[urge]

I think its absolutely ridiculous that a bankruptcy should affect your employment as an anesthesiologist. If he's BC/BE w/solid credentials and a good attitude I'd take that anyday over some 50 y/o unboarded doc w/good credit.

Would you like to go in business with someone who shafted all his previous contracts/lenders when they were about to make a lot of money?

Chapter 13 might be a more palatable story.

If you don't know the difference between chapter 7 or 13 look it up.

 

[El Dooderino]

I was talking to a recruiter a few months ago, and he said the early signs of a dying field in medicine is one that has way too much luxury in their choice of employees. What struck me when I saw this thread was that he mentioned credit checks specifically. I paraphrase, "if they have enough time to bicker about crap like credit scores and marital status, their services are probably not that valuable. When we recruit orthopedic surgeons, we check for their BE/BC, check their pulse, then offer them an arm, leg, and maybe a testicle to join the group. That is how valuable those guys are." I have never been a doom and gloom person, but if a board certified anesthesiologist is only as good as his/her credit score, then the field is in for some rough times for everyone bankrupt or not 😉

Talk about being overdramatic...

 

[Narcotized]

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[Narcotized]

Are you like 3 yrs old?

Did Santa bring you some nice Tonka trucks?

Don't you realize he wants to get all his debt erased before his salary goes up so that he never has to pay?

👍👍👍

 

[ssmallz]

Are you seriously saying the odds are no greater that those that file bankruptcy are more likely to be irresponsible compared to those that have never filed?? Particularly when he's dumping all responsibility for these debts (on us) prior to when he cashes in big time in 1 1/2 years? Come on, you're pulling my leg, right?

All I'm saying is that if he can demonstrate skill, knowledge, dedication and has no other red flags then I don't think it's an issue. People file bankruptcy for all different reasons, not all of them are irresponsible. I certainly wouldn't hire the person for a CFO type position but if you are talking about a typical anesthesia job where you show up do cases, and pick up a paycheck I just don't see the connection. Maybe you can provide some evidence to back up your claims on just how irresponsible bankrupt people are and how that affects their lives in the future but unless you do so we will just have to agree to disagree

 

[vector2]

Why does it appear that virtually all med students are borderline or actual communists?.

Yep, pointing out that all sorts of intangibles can contribute to an otherwise 'responsible' person having to declare bankruptcy = communism. It's absurd to suggest someone has some underlying moral defect ultimately causing his financial distress while simultaneously insisting on not giving that person a job for the very same reason. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy. A guy is apparently organized enough to graduate from med school and competent enough as a consultant to graduate from residency but yet he's too irresponsible to work? Gimme a break.

All I'm saying is that if he can demonstrate skill, knowledge, dedication and has no other red flags then I don't think it's an issue. People file bankruptcy for all different reasons, not all of them are irresponsible. I certainly wouldn't hire the person for a CFO type position but if you are talking about a typical anesthesia job where you show up do cases, and pick up a paycheck I just don't see the connection. Maybe you can provide some evidence to back up your claims on just how irresponsible bankrupt people are and how that affects their lives in the future but unless you do so we will just have to agree to disagree

👍👍

 

[Apollyon]

Yep, pointing out that all sorts of intangibles can contribute to an otherwise 'responsible' person having to declare bankruptcy = communism.

Reductio ad absurdum. It is the blinding liberalism of medical students, in apparent blindness to reality, that is remarkable. You display that. It happens so frequently, every single year, that it is the easiest prediction to make - that medical students will put on the rose colored glasses, and start spouting off on "free healthcare for all! Social justice! Social responsibility! Homeless patient? You can stay at my place! It isn't a poor person's fault that they are poor!"

Is it just coincidence that people that work harder, in general, are more prosperous than those that don't? If you disagree with that, then you are either deluded, or not as intelligent as would be expected of a med student (provided you are one; I am a doctor, which has been vetted by SDN).

 

[Bertelman]

Is it just coincidence that people that work harder, in general, are more prosperous than those that don't?

The farther in life I get, the less I believe in this generalization. I have had some colleagues that manage to work very little, and get paid very handsomely. Some of the most wildly successful and rich people in our society have become so by sheer luck, genetic gift, or just ruthlessness.

Likewise, there are very simple, hardworking people that put in many more hours than I, and will remain making minimum wage. I understand they could be working smarter, but I just don't always see a direct correlation between effort and compensation/reward.

 

[Osteoimperfecta]

The proof that education does not cure ignorance is scattered all over this thread

 

[Osteoimperfecta]

Why stop at credit checks. Obesity has been directly linked to absenteeism at work

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...qtymAg&usg=AFQjCNH7sJn0K_uouDHHcKG52HQiYa_Afw

 

[scarshapedstar]

Reductio ad absurdum.

You're the one who invoked Communism, correct...?