Breaking down DO stigma in residency apps (Possible useful info for DO stakeholders, check out this thread if you are)

[putmeincoach]

What do you think are the causes of the stigma and what are your ideas/actionable steps we can take as future DOs to eradicate it?

Disclaimer: Please no trolling, let's have a reasonable discussion. This probably may take a while and the stigma may still even exist when we graduate in a few years, but I hope we can all work together to make sure the generation that follows us get a fair shake. That our best and brightest, DO or MD, get an equal shot at the very best programs that could cultivate their talents and recognize their hardwork.

Edit:
Summary of ideas if you're a stakeholder reading this (PM me if I missed something):

-improve research opps so that students who want it can easily get it
- increase GME contribution and make it as uniform across all DO schools as much as possible
-Reduce class sizes and improve faculty/student ratio. Or, make sure there's GME available first to accomodate the class.
-Advocate for a national system where resident rosters are seen as Dr. X MD/DO, school hidden
-Blind PDs from what school someone is from prior to the interview, only classify as CMG/AMG or IMG
-Advocate for a unified board exam to objectively compare ALL schools (MD/DO) and rank accordingly annually
-Promote a media campaign that physicians are MD/DO and promote unity within the house of medicine.
-Promote the idea that what truly matters and one should be judged on, is one's skill as a physician and how well you serve patients/humanity. Not place a large emphasis, if at all, on what school you came from.
-Only open schools if research and quality clinical rotations are set up
-Advocate for COCA and LCME to work together to ensure the highest standards possible.
-Get rid of non-evidence based parts of OMM or at least, have a disclaimer and let those parts be optional.
-Have mentors available for every specialty as early as first year.

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[sab3156]

Coach, take him out.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

We can get rid of the AOA, NBOME, and COCA so we can become LCME accredited schools. We can close down all the **** schools that are opening up with piss poor clinical training and we can cut class sizes in half at the majority of these private DO schools. We can get rid of the pseudoscience on our board exams and curriculums (hell we can keep OMM, but get rid of cranial and the rest of the BS that has been proven to be fantasy). We can improve the clinical training as a whole.

Until these things happen there will always be a bias. Some of it is dumb and based on historical BS, but there is also a decent chunk of it that is completely fair.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

We can get rid of the AOA, NBOME, and COCA so we can become LCME accredited schools. We can close down all the **** schools that are opening up with piss poor clinical training and we can cut class sizes in half at the majority of these private DO schools. We can get rid of the pseudoscience on our board exams and curriculums (hell we can keep OMM, but get rid of cranial and the rest of the BS that has been proven to be fantasy). We can improve the clinical training as a whole.

Until these things happen there will always be a bias. Some of it is dumb and based on historical BS, but there is also a decent chunk of it that is completely fair.

Adding to that get more research and resources to the students. Get students connected to mentors in the field early. Any new school that wants to open needs to prove they have secured good rotations for its students (inpatient and outpatient) and not majority in clinics like some school. Plus all schools must contribute to new GME and not just in PC.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Personally I think it's clinical rotations- DO schools have to send out a lot of students for clinical rotations to remote locations and private hospitals that are not teaching institutions. It's often reliant on docs who are more concerned with production than teaching, but out of the goodness of their hearts will volunteer to take on students. You get some teaching for sure, but it's just not the same; COCA knew this and at least made one rotation mandatory at a hospital with residents- which is about the only good thing they've done for a while.

The result is clinically weaker DO residents, at least for the first 6 months or so of residency. It all comes to a wash for sure, but at first im sure its a pretty big pain in the ass to deal with.

AnatomyGrey I agree that some of it may have to do with pseudoscience on board exams, but I would question how much that actually influences it. I really think its more the quality, or lack thereof of our clinical rotations.

Edit- I guess im now the third person to echo this about clinical rotations...I know that there will be additional discussion but I hope we can largely agree that thats the main differentiation here.

 

[Ho0v-man]

There’s no way to do it. Even if we do everything in anatomy greys post, there will always be discrimination against those two letters.

 

[putmeincoach]

There’s no way to do it. Even if we do everything in anatomy greys post, there will always discrimination against those two letters.

I mean, you have the right to believe what you want. But I invite you not to have a defeatist mindset and positively engage if you can. If there's bias, and it makes sense, let's take action instead of wallowing in misery. Assuming you're a DO student as well, I really just want you to be succesful, realize your potential, and not be limited in any way. And ****, if we manage to address all there is to address, and there's still bias, at least we can say we tried our best, and have no regrets we tried to make a positive difference.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I mean, you have the right to believe what you want. But I invite you not to have a defeatist mindset and positively engage if you can. If there's bias, and it makes sense, let's take action instead of wallowing in misery. Assuming you're a DO student as well, I really just want you to be succesful, realize your potential, and not be limited in any way. And ****, if we manage to address all there is to address, and there's still bias, at least we can say we tried our best, and have no regrets we tried to make a positive difference.

Well then the best options are to follow Anatomy Greys post. Clinical Ed needs improved and standardized. Research needs to be available to those who want it. If we want to prove we’re as good with medical knowledge as our MD counterparts, we need to take their tests and hold ourselves to the same standards. I’d love to see this stuff happen.

Sadly, prestige whoring in medicine is real. And DO will always be less prestigious than MD just like Drexel is less prestigious than Hopkins. It’s absolutely stupid and absolutely real.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Well then the best options are to follow Anatomy Greys post. Clinical Ed needs improved and standardized. Research needs to be available to those who want it. If we want to prove we’re as good with medical knowledge as our MD counterparts, we need to take their tests and hold ourselves to the same standards. I’d love to see this stuff happen.

Sadly, prestige whoring in medicine is real. And DO will always be less prestigious than MD just like Drexel is less prestigious than Hopkins. It’s absolutely stupid and absolutely real.

Research is fine it helps appreciate where the major decision making comes from in our profession, however, research doesn't make up for an intern that doesn't know how to form his own assessment and plan; same with the testing- or USMLE as I'm sure your hinting at. Again, we can take the usmle and thats fine, but if you can't apply that basic scientific knowledge to clinical practice then it doesn't matter...again it comes down to clinical decision making.

Is anyone disagreeing that prestige whoring in medicine is real? I wasn't aware that this is a debate. We're not trying to debate the fact that it exists...in fact its the title of the article is specifically BREAKING DOWN why we have this stigma and lack of prestige.

 

[putmeincoach]

Perhaps we could advocate for a system where residency applicants are only seen through objective measures and performance during medical school (scores, rank, etc), and not from things they can't control now and that hardly make a difference in patient care (e.g. not getting their **** together in undergrad and going to a lesser known school, attractiveness lol, what's with the ERAS photos anyway?)

 

[sab3156]

You can do whatever you want, but most PDs in prestigious programs and competitive specialties are still going to flip the DO apps in the trash. They don't have a personal agenda against you. They just don't want your degree to hurt them. They couldn't care less that you are a great student or that your clinical education quality might have improved to the point where it matches Harvard's. You're still coming from the lowest possible tier of US medical schools, and it's not an appealing thing for residency rosters to have DOs. It is really as simple as that.

If you want to change it, terminate the DO degree and get these schools LCME-accredited. But then you're just going to be an MD school at the lowest end of the totem pole and still get shafted. End of story.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

You can do whatever you want, but most PDs in prestigious programs and competitive specialties are still going to flip the DO apps in the trash. They don't have a personal agenda against you. They just don't want your degree to hurt them. They couldn't care less that you are a great student or that your clinical education quality might have improved to the point where it matches Harvard's. You're still coming from the lowest possible tier of US medical schools, and it's not an appealing thing for residency rosters to have DOs. It is really as simple as that.

If you want to change it, terminate the DO degree and get these schools LCME-accredited. But then you're just going to be an MD school at the lowest end of the totem pole and still get shafted. End of story.

Who invited old man sab to the party?

 

[sab3156]

Who invited old man sab to the party?

I know reality sucks sometimes. No PD or chief or faculty I have worked with even knows what a DO school is other than that it is a low tier school where you go if your GPA and/or MCAT sucked. Some might know a bit about the hocus pocus nonsense, but not really much about it.

 

[putmeincoach]

You can do whatever you want, but most PDs in prestigious programs and competitive specialties are still going to flip the DO apps in the trash. They don't have a personal agenda against you. They just don't want your degree to hurt them. They couldn't care less that you are a great student or that your clinical education quality might have improved to the point where it matches Harvard's. You're still coming from the lowest possible tier of US medical schools, and it's not an appealing thing for residency rosters to have DOs. It is really as simple as that.

If you want to change it, terminate the DO degree and get these schools LCME-accredited. But then you're just going to be an MD school at the lowest end of the totem pole and still get shafted. End of story.

I'm not against tiers in medical schools. I think we should have a reasonable system where schools can improve their rankings, in order to encourage competition and innovation. Like for instance, making every DO/MD school take one set of boards and rank accordingly annually for the public to see. That way, schools won't be hardstuck and may even be an added motivation for some to innovate their flavor of med ed to compete, which could then be used to attract better students, and more "prestige points" from the general public.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Research is fine it helps appreciate where the major decision making comes from in our profession, however, research doesn't make up for an intern that doesn't know how to form his own assessment and plan; same with the testing- or USMLE as I'm sure your hinting at. Again, we can take the usmle and thats fine, but if you can't apply that basic scientific knowledge to clinical practice then it doesn't matter...again it comes down to clinical decision making.

Is anyone disagreeing that prestige whoring in medicine is real? I wasn't aware that this is a debate. We're not trying to debate the fact that it exists...in fact its the title of the article is specifically BREAKING DOWN why we have this stigma and lack of prestige.

Your first paragraph is solved by better clinical Ed. Already discussed.

The stigma will exist despite any improvements on these fronts for the same reason that stigma exists regarding low tier MD school applicants applying to top 10 residencies. Bc the cool kids have proclaimed they are inferior.

 

[putmeincoach]

I know reality sucks sometimes. No PD or chief or faculty I have worked with even knows what a DO school is other than that it is a low tier school where you go if your GPA and MCAT sucked. Some might know a bit about the hocus pocus nonsense, but not really much about it.

I see, what general part of the country is it? I'll keep it mind if I set up shop there. I'll do my best and even let my classmates know to convince them otherwise by working our asses off.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You can do whatever you want, but most PDs in prestigious programs and competitive specialties are still going to flip the DO apps in the trash. They don't have a personal agenda against you. They just don't want your degree to hurt them. They couldn't care less that you are a great student or that your clinical education quality might have improved to the point where it matches Harvard's. You're still coming from the lowest possible tier of US medical schools, and it's not an appealing thing for residency rosters to have DOs. It is really as simple as that.

If you want to change it, terminate the DO degree and get these schools LCME-accredited. But then you're just going to be an MD school at the lowest end of the totem pole and still get shafted. End of story.

Who or what decides the tiers of schools anyway? is it just the name of the school? The quality or clinical skills of students they graduate? Being an older school? For all I know ranking of medical school is all subjective, and very much dependent on institution's names and funding. If we actually had objective metrics to ranking med schools, I think many schools including some DO schools would actually move up the ladder and many schools including MD schools would also move down the ladder.

 

[sab3156]

I see, what general part of the country is it? I'll keep it mind if I set up shop there. I'll do my best and even let my classmates know to convince them otherwise by working our asses off.

You still don't get it, do you...? There is a bias because the DO degree, similar to having Caribbean MDs, makes programs look less competitive and tarnishes their image. It is such a simple issue that needs no overcomplicating. No one gives a damn how good your SOAP note is or how late you stayed to help out in the clinic. Come back to reality.

 

[gyngyn]

Perhaps we could advocate for a system where residency applicants are only seen through objective measures and performance during medical school (scores, rank, etc), and not from things they can't control now and that hardly make a difference in patient care (e.g. not getting their **** together in undergrad and going to a lesser known school, attractiveness lol, what's with the ERAS photos anyway?)

It is true that the photos tell a story but we don't see them until an interview is offered.

 

[putmeincoach]

You still don't get it, do you...? There is a bias because the DO degree, similar to having Caribbean MDs, makes programs look less competitive and tarnishes their image. It is such a simple issue that needs no overcomplicating.

Wait are you even trying to help get rid of the DO stigma? Even if you aren't, people who have power who may read this thread would really appreciate if you could share any ideas/actionable advice towards that goal. It's ok too if you don't, I appreciate you for taking the time to read through anyway.

As for programs looking less competitive, perhaps we could advocate for a national system where PDs advertise all their residents as Dr. X MD/DO, and get rid of where they went to school. Is this reasonable? Hold up are you a PD, faculty or? Just want some context so I could tailor my responses.

 

[putmeincoach]

It is true that the photos tell a story but we don't see them until an interview is offered.

What's your opinion on having photos? Do you think we could do away with it?

 

[gyngyn]

What's your opinion on having photos? Do you think we could do away with it?

No. It serves as a situational judgement test.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Your first paragraph is solved by better clinical Ed. Already discussed.

The stigma will exist despite any improvements on these fronts for the same reason that stigma exists regarding low tier MD school applicants applying to top 10 residencies. Bc the cool kids have proclaimed they are inferior.

This post isn't about solving the inferiority/superiority complexes endemic in all of medicine MD/DO...its about breaking down the DO bias. If we've already discussed that then the rest of this is a brand new subject and you should start a new thread on that.

There you and Sab can enjoy your echo chamber about how much being a DO sucks.

 

[putmeincoach]

No. It serves as a situational judgement test.

Sorry, I can't say I follow. Can you elaborate more on how it's used as an SJT? Thanks.

 

[gyngyn]

Sorry, I can't say I follow. Can you elaborate more on how it's used as an SJT? Thanks.

The picture you choose tells us a lot about you that words cannot express.

 

[Ho0v-man]

This post isn't about solving the inferiority/superiority complexes endemic in all of medicine MD/DO...its about breaking down the DO bias. If we've already discussed that then the rest of this is a brand new subject and you should start a new thread on that.

There you and Sab can enjoy your echo chamber about how much being a DO sucks.

Not sure what you mean by “the rest of this”. Also, I’m genuinely not sure if you even have a point you’re disagreeing with me about. If you have a point, please feel free to make it anytime. I’m not trying to offend you or anyone else.

The DO bias is due to some inherent deficiencies in our schools that are a result of the lower standards that the AOA/COCA have relative to the LCME. But even if LCME took over, our schools would still be looked down upon plain and simple. This discrimination against the letters “DO” even if everything else was equal is another part of the bias. Thus it’s worth mentioning in this thread. There’s not really a lot more to break down than that,

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Not sure what you mean by “the rest of this”. Also, I’m genuinely not sure if you even have a point you’re disagreeing with me about. If you have a point, please feel free to make it anytime. I’m not trying to offend you or anyone else.

The DO bias is due to some inherent deficiencies in our schools that are a result of the lower standards that the AOA/COCA have relative to the LCME. But even if LCME took over, our schools would still be looked down upon plain and simple. This discrimination against the letters “DO” even if everything else was equal is another part of the bias. Thus it’s worth mentioning in this thread. There’s not really a lot more to break down than that,

My point is that breaks into bias and prestige as a whole, it's not really unique to DO schools, thus doesnt really serve us to talk about.

 

[deleted1001426]

How so? I saw quite a bit of my classmates and they were almost all carbon copies. Pretty sure everyone used the same local shop too..

I’d assume it serves as a test to see if you have the good sense to get a headshot or if you’re going to submit a pic of you bleary eyed, in a Hawaiian shirt from your last night out. Maybe it’s different for residency apps but I’ve seen some of the pics my premed friends used for their applications and a few of them are pretty shocking

 

[Ho0v-man]

My point is that breaks into bias and prestige as a whole, it's not really unique to DO schools, thus doesnt really serve us to talk about.

I see your point now and respectfully disagree. The vast step off in prestige from low tier MD to DO is most of my point. Again, we could (and should) strive to improve the quality of osteopathic schools, but it will never make our students more likely to be interviewed/ranked over MD applicants who look a little worse on paper. So it goes to my original point that DOs will always be discriminated against.

 

[ciestar]

How so? I saw quite a bit of my classmates and they were almost all carbon copies. Pretty sure everyone used the same local shop too..

My school hires photographers and we all go sit for our photos lol

 

[Goro]

Wait are you even trying to help get rid of the DO stigma? Even if you aren't, people who have power who may read this thread would really appreciate if you could share any ideas/actionable advice towards that goal. It's ok too if you don't, I appreciate you for taking the time to read through anyway.

As for programs looking less competitive, perhaps we could advocate for a national system where PDs advertise all their residents as Dr. X MD/DO, and get rid of where they went to school. Is this reasonable? Hold up are you a PD, faculty or? Just want some context so I could tailor my responses.

Self hating DO student.


Back to answering the OP, once DO schools have better clinical education, more grads will be on a better footing. The days of the Cult of Still are over.

Getting rid to the PD concern that elitist MD grads will look down upon their programs will be a bigger nut to crack.

 

[putmeincoach]

Self hating DO student.


Back to answering the OP, once DO schools have better clinical education, more grads will be on a better footing. The days of the Cult of Still are over.

Getting rid to the PD concern that elitist MD grads will look down upon their programs will be a bigger nut to crack.

Ah, I see. Don't want to assume anything though. But if it is true, I hope that person could channel that nihilistic energy into something more positive.

As for PDs concern about elitist MDs looking down on residency rosters, feel free to reply if you have any ideas to counteract this!

My idea so far: Pushing for PDs to address residents as Dr. X MD/DO, with the school hidden. Feel free to add to this or tell me if you think it's dumb. Just tell me why though. We can then send these ideas to PDs, AOA stakeholders, DO members of the ACGME board, etc. Let's do our best!

 

[Hippocrates II]

There’s no way to do it. Even if we do everything in anatomy greys post, there will always discrimination against those two letters.

Bingo. Doesn't matter what you do in this lifetime, DO will always be considered the lesser of the two degrees. The MD title is rooted in tradition as being the title for a doctor.

 

[DNC127]

On the ortho 2020 match sheet people were bashing Cleveland Clinic for having DOs at their facility.

One person said "Wow it would be a real punch in the gut to do residency with a DO"

Because of this, PDs (in competitive places / specialties) will largely throw DO apps in the trash because they can't afford for their "brand" to be tarnished.

DOs will always play second fiddle. Nothing will change it.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

On the ortho 2020 match sheet people were bashing Cleveland Clinic for having DOs at their facility.

One person said "Wow it would be a real punch in the gut to do residency with a DO"

Because of this, PDs (in competitive places / specialties) will largely throw DO apps in the trash because they can't afford for their "brand" to be tarnished.

DOs will always play second fiddle. Nothing will change it.

These are people scared of being outperformed by a DO in residency after putting all the hard work of getting high GPA, high MCAT, top tier med school, high step scores.... I bet you they wouldn't have complained if a Caribbean MD was in the list of residents without mention of what school he/she attended. It's all an ego thing.

 

[diesel2202]

On the ortho 2020 match sheet people were bashing Cleveland Clinic for having DOs at their facility.

One person said "Wow it would be a real punch in the gut to do residency with a DO"

Because of this, PDs (in competitive places / specialties) will largely throw DO apps in the trash because they can't afford for their "brand" to be tarnished.

DOs will always play second fiddle. Nothing will change it.

This same kind of stuff happens on the IM side.

These are people scared of being outperformed by a DO in residency after putting all the hard work of getting high GPA, high MCAT, top tier med school, high step scores.... I bet you they wouldn't have complained if a Caribbean MD was in the list of residents without mention of what school he/she attended. It's all an ego thing.

DO students are guilty of this as well. Plenty see a residency with a large portion of DOs and avoid it due to the assumption that it is a lower quality program.

 

[sab3156]

Ah, I see. Don't want to assume anything though. But if it is true, I hope that person could channel that nihilistic energy into something more positive.

You're speaking to someone who is completely uninformed about how the ACGME residency world works, such as believing that "SF Match" was about matching in San Francisco, California. But back to reality (the discussion of which you are dismissing as being "nihilistic"). Here are real examples of exactly what I was talking about:

On the ortho 2020 match sheet people were bashing Cleveland Clinic for having DOs at their facility.

One person said "Wow it would be a real punch in the gut to do residency with a DO"

Because of this, PDs (in competitive places / specialties) will largely throw DO apps in the trash because they can't afford for their "brand" to be tarnished.

DOs will always play second fiddle. Nothing will change it.

This same kind of stuff happens on the IM side.

To add to this, I can't tell you how commonly I have seen PDs, Chiefs, and faculty in Ophthalmology act like having DO or IMG residents is like the black death for residency programs.

 

[DNC127]

These are people scared of being outperformed by a DO in residency after putting all the hard work of getting high GPA, high MCAT, top tier med school, high step scores.... I bet you they wouldn't have complained if a Caribbean MD was in the list of residents without mention of what school he/she attended. It's all an ego thing.

Nothing wrong with it IMO.

The world runs on competition and ego, can't be mad about. Just the way it is and always will be.

They were also bashing IMGs but I figured it was implied.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Nothing wrong with it IMO.

The world runs on competition and ego, can't be mad about. Just the way it is and always will be.

They were also bashing IMGs but I figured it was implied.

Yes, our society is run by competition, but it also rewards hard work. Competition shouldn't be based on 2 letters behind someone's name. It should be based on numbers. If a DO holds an Ortho spot at the Cleveland Clinic, I am pretty sure he/she deserves to be there just like his/her MD colleagues. Anyone that is mad about that is purely egocentric, and that has nothing to do with competition. Would Ortho suddenly become less competitive once all programs have accepted at least one DO grad? I certainly think not.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Perhaps we could advocate for a system where residency applicants are only seen through objective measures and performance during medical school (scores, rank, etc), and not from things they can't control now and that hardly make a difference in patient care (e.g. not getting their **** together in undergrad and going to a lesser known school, attractiveness lol, what's with the ERAS photos anyway?)

Nope, lifes not like that. The apps are already limited enough, you want to have more limits on them?

Let me put it this way, lets say we make it completely blinded, removed your school name etc. Would that really benefit most DO students when compared to say IMGs or Caribs? If we hadn't taken the same board exam I would think not. And even if every DO took step, we would lose any advantage given to uus by our degree over a large subset of other applicants.

Its in the majority of DO students interest to keep the app as it is.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

On the ortho 2020 match sheet people were bashing Cleveland Clinic for having DOs at their facility.

One person said "Wow it would be a real punch in the gut to do residency with a DO"

Because of this, PDs (in competitive places / specialties) will largely throw DO apps in the trash because they can't afford for their "brand" to be tarnished.

DOs will always play second fiddle. Nothing will change it.

I actually agree except for the last line. We are changing it, with superstar applicants. They are breaking in, and as we increase the number of students who enter DO school we will increase our extreme outliers. Especially as the process becomes more competitive overall the quality of applicant will increase, see psych for instance. Once there are a lot of super high quality DOs out there the bias will decrease.

Also that comment sure sounds like a joke. I am sure almost anyone applying ortho would be fine training anywhere. There is no doubt we are second fiddle to MDs right now, but I don't believe we always will be.

I personally just wish COCA would improve quality by decreasing class size and improving rotations. However that route pays less and if they throw a big enough net they will get superstars anyway who slip thru the cracks. I don't like their strategy morally, but it will have the same effect eventually. It just screws over a lot of people at the bottom.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Nope, lifes not like that. The apps are already limited enough, you want to have more limits on them?

Let me put it this way, lets say we make it completely blinded, removed your school name etc. Would that really benefit most DO students when compared to say IMGs or Caribs? If we hadn't taken the same board exam I would think not. And even if every DO took step, we would lose any advantage given to uus by our degree over a large subset of other applicants.

Its in the majority of DO students interest to keep the app as it is.

I was going to suggest blinding them to the school until an interview is offered but this post made me realize it would indeed benefit IMGs who study for boards >6 months and spent the last 2 years since the graduated pumping out pubs.

 

[alprazoslam]

Look. I know DO schools mostly suck we and have to do our best to oust them for their dishonestly. I’ll even o as far as help do that and shame them hard. But PDs should know where people are coming from before offering and invite. We knew (somewhat) what going to a DO school would entail for us. I say somewhat because many of them are very deceiving as mine is. But no one forced us to do. If you wanted to go DO and to get a super fancy specialty you shoulda went MD. It’s getting harder and harder. Nothing is gonna change with more DO schools opening and what little quality we had going down the drain.

 

[Chibucks15]

Who honestly cares? If you’re so wrapped up in the ego BS go to MD school. It doesn’t matter jack later on besides to prestige ****** on here

 

[Ho0v-man]

Who honestly cares? If you’re so wrapped up in the ego BS go to MD school. It doesn’t matter jack later on besides to prestige ****** on here

Tbh, I super wouldn’t care about the prestige BS if it didn’t affect my chances of matching.

 

[Neopolymath]

Who honestly cares? If you’re so wrapped up in the ego BS go to MD school. It doesn’t matter jack later on besides to prestige ****** on here

This is wrong but obviously doesn't fit your often shared career path so you don't care.


On another note, this will never change. I worked for several years with MD students from a very low quality local school who were awful and many faculty from several specialties thought so as well. Now I am a student and hear first hand again that our students consistently outperform theirs on rotations. Guess who's match list is much better?

Edit:
And I'm sure next year I'll be sitting next to *relatively* mediocre MD students at my interviews while they talk about going to visit programs that rejected me on brand alone. It is what it is my dudes. Just work hard. It's all you can control.

 

[Chibucks15]

Tbh, I super wouldn’t care about the prestige BS if it didn’t affect my chances of matching.

In the majority of the country, it doesn’t really affect anything if you have the scores. But to each their own

 

[Chibucks15]

This is wrong but obviously doesn't fit your often shared career path so you don't care.


On another note, this will never change. I worked for several years with MD students from a very low quality local school who were awful and many faculty from several specialties thought so as well. Now I am a student and hear first hand again that our students consistently outperform theirs on rotations. Guess who's match list is much better?

Edit:
And I'm sure next year I'll be sitting next to *relatively* mediocre MD students at my interviews while they talk about going to visit programs that rejected me on brand alone. It is what it is my dudes. Just work hard. It's all you can control.

Basically your edit is all I’m trying to say. Match list being “better” is also subjective as hell because who knows what the preferences of the students are. If you’re that dead set on some high up places, then make yourself good enough to go MD.

The prestige factor is in literally every profession that is in any way competitive. Lawyers, finance, I banking, hell even pro football. Idk why this is such a shock to some people on here. It’s how the world works, work harder and get over it. There isn’t a way to solve it

 

[sab3156]

Match list being “better” is also subjective as hell because who knows what the preferences of the students are.

Such a cop out defense. This is like the ultimate osteopathic apologist argument.

You can just go ahead and argue that every measurement of school strength is relative (I think this is a better word to use than subjective), including Step scores, by suggesting something sensational like "the students could have matched into a lot of various programs and specialties, but decided to match largely into Pediatrics and FM in community programs in the rural midwest, and that is why they decided to only just pass Step 1, they got exactly what they wanted, it is all relative, man"...

 

[putmeincoach]

I was going to suggest blinding them to the school until an interview is offered but this post made me realize it would indeed benefit IMGs who study for boards >6 months and spent the last 2 years since the graduated pumping out pubs.

That's a good idea and valid concern, I think. Maybe a system that divides applicants to AMG (MD and DO) or IMG could fix your concern? Let me know what you think.